Who takes the fall?

[wargograw]

 

 

Cut War some slack still reeling from the Miss St game.

 

This is true lol.

[jiggins7919]

I don't think there has to be anyone to "take the fall", now that I've had a chance to think about it. Even if we let Ray Horton go after the season, you still have to find someone better, right? Who would want to come to a place where you might only get one year? I just want to see the same staff for three years, and then start making decisions.

 

As painful as that might be...

[TexasAg1969]

I don't think there has to be anyone to "take the fall", now that I've had a chance to think about it. Even if we let Ray Horton go after the season, you still have to find someone better, right? Who would want to come to a place where you might only get one year? I just want to see the same staff for three years, and then start making decisions.

 

As painful as that might be...

 

Good points. We would not be able to attract anyone better with a known short leash.

[Tour2ma]

Good points. We would not be able to attract anyone better with a known short leash.

 

Where do you find "anyone better" period in mid-season that is not already on the staff?

 

Here are your choices... http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/coaches.html

[The Gipper]

 

Where do you find "anyone better" period in mid-season that is not already on the staff?

 

Here are your choices... http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/coaches.html

I am not in favor of making a change this year.....but definitely next year we need to do something. More, better candidates should be out there after the end of the season.

[TexasAg1969]

 

Where do you find "anyone better" period in mid-season that is not already on the staff?

 

Here are your choices... http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/coaches.html

 

He was talking after the season, as was I.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Well i thought surely the cowboys game was the worst game i'd see from the browns this year.... I was wrong...

 

Well the bright positives and progress we had been making this season have been notably absent the paat two games...

 

I think it is safe to say that 0-16 is exceptionally likely at this point.

 

Also it's safe to say that sticking with jackson and staff would be an effort in continuity for the sake of it, not because it is deserved.

 

It takes YEARS to build a contender but it only takes 1 to know what you have and i think we are starting to see why the raiders made the decision they made and what i believe will be the decision we make at the conclusion of the season

[tiamat63]

Well i thought surely the cowboys game was the worst game i'd see from the browns this year.... I was wrong...

 

Well the bright positives and progress we had been making this season have been notably absent the paat two games...

 

I think it is safe to say that 0-16 is exceptionally likely at this point.

 

Also it's safe to say that sticking with jackson and staff would be an effort in continuity for the sake of it, not because it is deserved.

 

It takes YEARS to build a contender but it only takes 1 to know what you have and i think we are starting to see why the raiders made the decision they made and what i believe will be the decision we make at the conclusion of the season

So it only took one year to see what Chuck Noll was all about? Billy up in New England? Bill Walsh? Bill parcells? How's about Tom Landry?

 

Even the coaching giants of the game started rough. Find yourself a chair and have a seat.

[CaineDeSoulis]

you seem to have this rhetoric only mentioning the successful coaches who struggled early rather than VAST majority of coaches who struggled early never to find success in their nfl coaching career. How ABOUT the successful coaches who flourished early and maintained a good record throughout their career.

Your really showing your bias here tiamat. Any chance for an original objective thought today?

[Tour2ma]

He was talking after the season, as was I.

 

Well... in that case... nevermind...

 

How ABOUT the successful coaches who flourished early and maintained a good record throughout their career.

 

How long is that list?

[CaineDeSoulis]

Don Shula,Vince Lombardi,Joe Gibbs,Bill B

Ron Rivera,Mike Holmgren,Jason Garrett,Gray Kubiak,Brian Billick,Wade Phillips,John Harbaugh

Sean Payton,Jon Gruden,John Madden,Mike Mcarthy,George Seifert,Marvin Lewis,Mike Ditka

Jim Mora,John Fox,Bill Cowher,Mike Shanahan,Jeff Fisher,Dan Reeves and Marty Schottenheimer


Only coaches with more than 50 wins and a winning percentage of greater the 50% included

I've omitted a lot of the other coachs aswell as frankly i didn't know who they were >.<

[Tour2ma]

Thanks... But remember tia was talking one year... so let's audit that list:

• Don Shula - in BLT inherited a 7-7 team from Weeb and went 8-6; in MIA took a 3-10 to 10-4... so that's +0.5
• Vince Lombardi - took a 1-10 GB to 7-5... check; took 5-9 WSH to 7-5-2... so there's your other half... +0.5
• George Halas - 10-1-2 in 1920 with the Staleys (I love that name); in 1932 took a 7-1-6 (yes, 6 ties!) Champion Bears team to 10-2-1; in 1946 took 3-7 to 8-2-1 but team was restocked with returning GIs; 1958 followed 5-7 with 8-4... Check... +1
• Joe Gibbs - took 6-10 WSH to 8-8 in 1981; returned in a 5-11 team in 1986 and went 6-10... so no... +0
• Bill B - took the 3-13 Browns to 6-10; took the 8-8 Pats to 5-11.... nope... +0
• Paul Brown - dominated a weak AAFC from the opening gun going 12-2 and built a monster by the time we enterred the NFL 4 years later... +1
• Ron Rivera, 2-14 to 6-10... meh... +0
• Mike Holmgren, GB 4-12 to 9-7; SEA 8-8 to 9-7... +0.5
• Jason Garrett, 5-3 (split w/ fired Wade Phillips) to 8-8... not feeling generous... +0
• Rex Ryan, NYJ 9-7 to 9-7; BUF 9-7 to 8-8... +0... and since it's Wreckin' Rex you're lucky I don't dock 2 points
• Gray Kubiak, HOU 2-14 to 6-10; DNV 12-4 to 12-4... HOU is tempting, but... +0
• Brian Billick, 6-10 to 8-8... NO... (see Rex Ryan) +0
• Wade Phillips, way too much work... but has failed in all three of his full time gigs... +0
• John Harbaugh, 5-11 to 11-5... easy +1

So I'll give you 4 of 14...

 

Rebuttle?

[TexasAg1969]

Thanks... But remember tia was talking one year... so let's audit that list:

• Don Shula - in BLT inherited a 7-7 team from Weeb and went 8-6; in MIA took a 3-10 to 10-4... so that's +0.5
• Vince Lombardi - took a 1-10 GB to 7-5... check; took 5-9 WSH to 7-5-2... so there's your other half... +0.5
• George Halas - 10-1-2 in 1920 with the Staleys (I love that name); in 1932 took a 7-1-6 (yes, 6 ties!) Champion Bears team to 10-2-1; in 1946 took 3-7 to 8-2-1 but team was restocked with returning GIs; 1958 followed 5-7 with 8-4... Check... +1
• Joe Gibbs - took 6-10 WSH to 8-8 in 1981; returned in a 5-11 team in 1986 and went 6-10... so no... +0
• Bill B - took the 3-13 Browns to 6-10; took the 8-8 Pats to 5-11.... nope... +0
• Paul Brown - dominated a weak AAFC from the opening gun going 12-2 and built a monster by the time we enterred the NFL 4 years later... +1
• Ron Rivera, 2-14 to 6-10... meh... +0
• Mike Holmgren, GB 4-12 to 9-7; SEA 8-8 to 9-7... +0.5
• Jason Garrett, 5-3 (split w/ fired Wade Phillips) to 8-8... not feeling generous... +0
• Rex Ryan, NYJ 9-7 to 9-7; BUF 9-7 to 8-8... +0... and since it's Wreckin' Rex you're lucky I don't dock 2 points
• Gray Kubiak, HOU 2-14 to 6-10; DNV 12-4 to 12-4... HOU is tempting, but... +0
• Brian Billick, 6-10 to 8-8... NO... (see Rex Ryan) +0
• Wade Phillips, way too much work... but has failed in all three of his full time gigs... +0
• John Harbaugh, 5-11 to 11-5... easy +1

So I'll give you 4 of 14...

 

Rebuttle?

 

Dammit stop letting facts get in the way of a great rant.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Thanks... But remember tia was talking one year... so let's audit that list:

1.Don Shula - in BLT inherited a 7-7 team from Weeb and went 8-6; in MIA took a 3-10 to 10-4... so that's +0.5

Improved the win rate year 1 +1

2.Vince Lombardi - took a 1-10 GB to 7-5... check; took 5-9 WSH to 7-5-2... so there's your other half... +0.5

Improved the win rate year 1 +6

3.George Halas - 10-1-2 in 1920 with the Staleys (I love that name); in 1932 took a 7-1-6 (yes, 6 ties!) Champion Bears team to 10-2-1; in 1946 took 3-7 to 8-2-1 but team was restocked with returning GIs; 1958 followed 5-7 with 8-4... Check... +1

I should have removed him from the list as these years are fairly irrelevent

4.Joe Gibbs - took 6-10 WSH to 8-8 in 1981; returned in a 5-11 team in 1986 and went 6-10... so no... +0

Improved the win rate year 1 +2

5.Bill B - took the 3-13 Browns to 6-10; took the 8-8 Pats to 5-11.... nope... +0

Improved the win rate year 1 +3

6.Paul Brown - dominated a weak AAFC from the opening gun going 12-2 and built a monster by the time we enterred the NFL 4 years later... +1

Probably should not be on this list

7.Ron Rivera, 2-14 to 6-10... meh... +0

Improved the win rate year 1 +4

8.Mike Holmgren, GB 4-12 to 9-7; SEA 8-8 to 9-7... +0.5

Improved the win rate year 1 +5

9.Jason Garrett, 5-3 (split w/ fired Wade Phillips) to 8-8... not feeling generous... +0

Improved the win rate year 1. the cowboys finished 6-10 the year before +2

10.Rex Ryan, NYJ 9-7 to 9-7; BUF 9-7 to 8-8... +0... and since it's Wreckin' Rex you're lucky I don't dock 2 points

I've taken him off this list

11.Gray Kubiak, HOU 2-14 to 6-10; DNV 12-4 to 12-4... HOU is tempting, but... +0

Improved the win rate year 1 +4

12.Brian Billick, 6-10 to 8-8... NO... (see Rex Ryan) +0

Improved the win rate year 1+2

13.Wade Phillips, way too much work... but has failed in all three of his full time gigs... +0

Improved the win rate year 1 +1

14.John Harbaugh, 5-11 to 11-5... easy +1

Improved the win rate year 1 +6

So I'll give you 4 of 14...

 

Rebuttle?

 

+36 combined wins for these coaches. or its more wins than the browns have had combined in 8 years if you want to look at it that way lol

Firstly i took Rex Ryan out in an edit because he failed to meet the .500 requirement

 

Secondly i looked at the initial head coaching job of each coach as the metric as more than a few of these coaches have/had been in the league for many years.

 

Thirdly your using opinions to belittle facts... seriously your biggest arguement is...meh... the FACT is that each of these coaches improved the team they coached and are some of the best coaches the Nfl has seen

 

I'm surprised tour i expected more of a counter argument than "I dont agree with your facts because i don't FEEL like it supports my argument"

 

I'm disappointed your not trying to generate a list of coaches that did poorly in comparison to years prior only to go on to become great coaches in the league.

 

Coaches that do poorly initially Historically will NOT go on to become great coaches. But that's not saying that it cant happen. Just that it is less likely to happen.

[wargograw]

Half those guys would have been run outta here on a rail by now. Jason Garrett? Ha. Guy's got a top 3 offense from a talent standpoint and couldn't throw up 2 TDs/a game last year. Ron Rivera? Look at some of the seasons he's had.

 

Caine is addicted to firing coaches. He's built that monster, and if he doesn't feed it, it'll bite him. Gotta scratch the itch.

[CaineDeSoulis]

your right i do love firing coaches it really makes me happy to fire coach after coach, except for Pettine and Eric M and Chud. But i wanted Horton fired twice lol and Jim O'Neil once

[tiamat63]

you seem to have this rhetoric only mentioning the successful coaches who struggled early rather than VAST majority of coaches who struggled early never to find success in their nfl coaching career. How ABOUT the successful coaches who flourished early and maintained a good record throughout their career.

 

Your really showing your bias here tiamat. Any chance for an original objective thought today?

No bias. I know stupidity when I see it. I'm not saying Hue is the next legend, but your comment was that you absolutely know if a coach is bad or not year one. I've highlighted that you're not even close to correct.

 

There are also a ton of medicore coaches that have had reasonable starts. We just fired the last one for that very same reason.

 

I'd also be willing to argue coaches that came in year one and had success inherited talent. Hue to date, has not.

 

Bottom line. Firing anyone after one year when you've all but gutted the roster is Retard.

[CaineDeSoulis]

it's a poor workman who blames his tools

[tiamat63]

it's a poor workman who blames his tools

 

 

If only football players we're inanimate, metal based objects.

[wargograw]

your right i do love firing coaches it really makes me happy to fire coach after coach, except for Pettine and Eric M and Chud. But i wanted Horton fired twice lol and Jim O'Neil once

Yes, clearly it does. Outside of idiots like Ghoolie, you were the first to bring it up, and you haven't let it go.

[CaineDeSoulis]

I will fully and freely admit i wanted horton to be fired the same day he was hired. He's always been terrible

[wargograw]

And Hue shortly thereafter. Cool.

[Mudfly]

I dont condone firing Hue.....BUT.....I dont see any reason we cant switch/add/change some coaches and or fo people......

 

IF its needed....

 

It's what I fought for last year....and will again this year.......tweak and adjust.....with no melt downs or resets....

 

We do it constantly with players.....so, why not with staff?.....

 

Instead of firing someone......Id suggest we add a "football" guy to the front office.....

 

In reality, they never named a GM last year and created a group think thing, with Shashi being the leader......my vote goes to adding a "real" GM with football experience and knowledge......

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I just sat down and read this from the beginning.

 

 

 

Jesus Christ some of you are stupid.

[miktoxic]

says a youngin with all the time in the world hoping to see change during his lifetime in a constant suck team.

 

remember this when ur my age and the browns still haven't won shit………then you'll be the old blowhard, with a dope flying car.

 

there's the 'let's stay the course' people and then there's the 'let's make a change' people. and the people have spoken.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Unsympathetic]

Landry had a losing record his first 4 seasons - and he was already a defensive genius with NYG. You may remember him inventing the concept of the MLB with Sam Huff.

 

And you guys would want him fired.

 

And they had more rounds in the draft those years.

[miktoxic]

dude, what is it that you people don't get? ok, there might be some people on here that just want hue fired to have him fired. i'm not one. i knew at the beginning of the season that this was going to be 0 and 16. no doubt in my mind. as i said in another post, i don't care if they tank it next year as well AS LONG AS I SEE IMPROVEMENT. on paper and on the field.

 

what some of you pacifists don't get is what business model hires a CEO who for the first half of the year has zilch to show for his work except for cashing his checks? what business doesn't strive for perfection in all of it's employees? sure there are ups and downs and growing pains along the way (hence a one year pass, maybe two tops). but for 'you' to sit back and just say "hey we all knew it. take it easy." fuck 'you'!

 

blatant bad coaching on both sides of the ball. bad decision making from the start with the FO (and owner it seems now IMO). if there were stock holders with a board that made decisions how do you think that would be going for everyone involved right now? there's a demand for doing it right and the foot up the ass is getting bigger and going higher with every loss. believe that pal.

[Tour2ma]

Firstly i took Rex Ryan out in an edit because he failed to meet the .500 requirement

 

Secondly i looked at the initial head coaching job of each coach as the metric as more than a few of these coaches have/had been in the league for many years.

 

Thirdly your using opinions to belittle facts... seriously your biggest arguement is...meh... the FACT is that each of these coaches improved the team they coached and are some of the best coaches the Nfl has seen

 

I'm surprised tour i expected more of a counter argument than "I dont agree with your facts because i don't FEEL like it supports my argument"

 

I'm disappointed your not trying to generate a list of coaches that did poorly in comparison to years prior only to go on to become great coaches in the league.

 

Coaches that do poorly initially Historically will NOT go on to become great coaches. But that's not saying that it cant happen. Just that it is less likely to happen.

 

Right.... I am so ashamed for having chosen to interpret facts differently than you...

 

You seriously want credit for citing a HC that took a team from 7-9 to 8-8? You maintain that circumstance is germane to a discussion of Hue?

[CaineDeSoulis]

Please remember that the argument is not meant to be a coaches are only good if the y are successful in their first year and fire them otherwise but using tom landry and chuck noll as a reason not to fire Hue Jackson because they also started poorly is silly and has been mentioned about 2000 times now.

 

Front office could be changed instead of Hue Jax as mud pointed out aswell and would still satisfy the point of the speculation here.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

says a youngin with all the time in the world hoping to see change during his lifetime in a constant suck team.

 

remember this when ur my age and the browns still haven't won shitthen you'll be the old blowhard, with a dope flying car.

 

there's the 'let's stay the course' people and then there's the 'let's make a change' people. and the people have spoken.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Conversely, you were at least alive to see years of good Browns play. I was born in 89, for the most part I've only seen sorrow.

 

I've seen 4 winning seasons in my entire life.