The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 This is not about boxing or college football basketball #1 vs. #2.....it is about the NFL draft. Here I list the #1 and the #2 draft picks going back to 1970...and I am bolding those who I believe had the best career. So, lets see how these things shake out. A few years I cannot decide and I will note those. # means HOF player: 1970 Terry Bradshaw# vs. Mike McCoy 1971 Jim Plunkett vs. Archie Manning 1972 Walt Patulski vs. Sherman White 1973 John Matuscak vs. Bert Jones 1974 Too Tall Jones vs. Bo Mathews 1975 Steve Bartkowski vs. Randy White# 1976 Leroy Selmon# vs. Steve Niehaus 1977 Ricky Bell vs. Tony Dorsett# 1978 Earl Campbell vs. Art Still 1979 Tom Cousineau vs. Mike Bell.....first up for grabs...both bust material 1980 Billy Sims vs. Lam Jones 1981 George Rogers vs. Lawrence Taylor# 1982 Ken Sims vs. Johnnie Cooks....up for grabs, both not good 1983 John Elway# vs. Eric Dickerson # only year since 1970 both 1 and 2 made HOF 1984 Irving Fryar vs. Dean Steinkuhler 1985 Bruce Smith# vs. Bill Fralic 1986 Bo Jackson vs. Tony Casillas. despite Bo's short brilliance, Casillas had better career. 1987 Vinny Testaverde vs. Cornelius Bennett. up for grabs...both had very productive careers 1988 Aundray Bruce vs. Neil Smith 1989 Troy Aikman# vs. Tony Mandarich 1990 Jeff George vs. Blair Thomas 1991 Russell Maryland vs. Eric Turner up for grabs, both good players 1992 Steve Emtman vs. Quentin Coryatt. up for grabs, both basically busts 1993 Drew Bledsoe vs. Rick Mirer 1994 Dan Wilkinson vs. Marshall Faulk# 1995 Kijana Carter vs. Tony Boselli 1996 Keyshawn Johnson vs. Kevin Hardy up for grabs, both good, not great 1997 Orlando Pace# vs. Darrell Russell 1998 Peyton Manning vs. Ryan Leaf. The biggest disparity between #1 and #2 perhaps ever...at least in this period. Only Akili Smith and Art Schlichter rival Leaf for biggest bust ever. 1999 Tim Couch vs. Donovan McNabb 2000 Courtney Brown vs. Lavar Arrington 2001 Michael Vick vs. Leonard Davis 2002 David Carr vs. Julius Peppers 2003 Carson Palmer vs. Charles Rogers 2004 Eli Manning vs. Robert Gallery 2005 Alex Smith vs. Ronnie Brown 2006 Mario Williams vs. Reggie Bush 2007 Jamarcus Russell vs. Calvin Johnson 2008 Jake Long vs. Chris Long only time 1 and 2 had same last name!! 2009 Matt Stafford vs. Jason Smith 2010 Sam Bradford vs. N. Suh 2011 Cam Newton vs. Von Miller if both keep going as is we could have 2d HOF 1&2 duo. 2012 Andrew Luck vs. Robert GriffinIII 2013 Eric Fisher vs. Luke Joeckel up for grabs, too soon to tell 2014 Jadaveon Clowney vs. Greg Robinson too soon 2015 Jameis Winston vs. Marcus Mariota too soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 In my estimation the #1s had the better player in 23 years, the #2 in 14 seasons with 6 up for grabs and 3 too soon to tell. Give your opinion on the up for grabs....or if you disagree with me on any of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 In time, Luck vs RG3 might get close to Manning vs Leaf, but not completely there. RG3 at least had *a* productive year before flaming out (and subsequently ending in cleveland apparently) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren15 Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 2007 was a tough call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 In time, Luck vs RG3 might get close to Manning vs Leaf, but not completely there. RG3 at least had *a* productive year before flaming out (and subsequently ending in cleveland apparently) That can never happen. RG3 already has a Pro Bowl appearance. His PFR CA is at 32. Leaf's PFR CA was a 1. The biggest disparities between 1 and 2 in regard to Production,using the CA is: Peyton 177 vs. Leaf 1: 176 points Carson Palmer 100 vs. Charles Rogers 4: 96 Lawrence Taylor 137 vs. George Rogers 46: 91 Taylor the #2 Bruce Smith 148 vs. Bill Fralic 58 90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Yeah, sure, I specifically said it won't match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Not counting the last 3 years, the closest Race between 1 and 2 players in terms of PFR production average are the following: 1978 Earl Campbell 68 pts. Art Still 73 5 pt differential In this case I gave the edge to Campbell...even though he had fewer CA points.....as Earl did make the HOF... 1979 Cousineau 36 pts Mike Bell 45 ... 9 points different 1982 Ken Sims 32 pts vs. Johnnie Cooks 40 pt ....8 pt different 1991 Russell Maryland 60 pts, E-Rock 52 8 pt different 1987 Vinny Testaverde 97 pts vs. Cornelius Bennet 90 pts. 7 pt difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 In time, Luck vs RG3 might get close to Manning vs Leaf, but not completely there. RG3 at least had *a* productive year before flaming out (and subsequently ending in cleveland apparently) I don't know if I'd call Luck a world beater as of yet, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 I don't know if I'd call Luck a world beater as of yet, either. Oddly enough....to date Luck has a 45 PFR CA....where Griffin is at 32 pts. Not as big of a difference as you would expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Oddly enough....to date Luck has a 45 PFR CA....where Griffin is at 32 pts. Not as big of a difference as you would expect. Right, I think that story is yet to be written. Luck has had some troubles so far, as has Griffin. Sure, Luck is still the better choice, but it's not as clear cut as it could have been. Plus, we all know RG3 is going to come to Cleveland and throw for 700 TDs and 5 INT's over the next 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 2007 was a tough call Ah......NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Right, I think that story is yet to be written. Luck has had some troubles so far, as has Griffin. Sure, Luck is still the better choice, but it's not as clear cut as it could have been. Plus, we all know RG3 is going to come to Cleveland and throw for 700 TDs and 5 INT's over the next 10 years. Ah.....YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillmotion Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 LOL at robert gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Even though he's a QB, I'm not yet ready to rate Cam Newton over Von Miller...IMO it's at best a tie for Cam although both are fantastic players. Von was instrumental in his Team winning a Super Bowl...Cam was instrumental in his Team LOSING a Super Bowl. We'll see. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Even though he's a QB, I'm not yet ready to rate Cam Newton over Von Miller...IMO it's at best a tie for Cam although both are fantastic players. Von was instrumental in his Team winning a Super Bowl...Cam was instrumental in his Team LOSING a Super Bowl. We'll see. Mike Fair point. That is why I said we may have another Elway/Dickerson situation that year. Both superb players. That is, after all, what one should expect from the #1 and #2 players taken in a draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Even though he's a QB, I'm not yet ready to rate Cam Newton over Von Miller...IMO it's at best a tie for Cam although both are fantastic players. Von was instrumental in his Team winning a Super Bowl...Cam was instrumental in his Team LOSING a Super Bowl. We'll see. Mike Maybe, but Cam was also instrumental in getting his team to the Super Bowl...maybe more than Von. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Maybe, but Cam was also instrumental in getting his team to the Super Bowl...maybe more than Von. Ah, no. About equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Poor damn Archie Manning. Can never win at nothing. Got his ass kicked every weekend for nothing but 2 sons that barely get touched. My Browns QB since 1999.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Ah, no. About equal. I'd venture a bet that the Miller-less Broncos finish with a better record than a Cam-less Panthers. Miller is an elite player on an otherwise talented defense. Cam is more or less the glue that held the Panthers offense together. Not downplaying the acheivements of Von, but Cam probably means more to the Panthers because, without him, they have almost nothing. This is very similar to the notion that Peyton should have won MVP in 2011.Peyton's absence led that Colts team to a meltdown, therefore he was clearly their most valuable player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Maybe, but Cam was also instrumental in getting his team to the Super Bowl...maybe more than Von. Yeah, it's just hard to argue who's the better one here. No clear winner at this time. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 22, 2016 Report Share Posted March 22, 2016 Yeah, it's just hard to argue who's the better one here. No clear winner at this time. Mike Yeah, I think Miller is far better at his craft...but his position is (in a bubble) much less influential than Cam's. We can all debate the subtle nuances and impact of each position until we're blue in the face, but in all honesty I would much rather have the fifth ranked QB (not Cam's rank, I just picked a number) than the number one ranked edge rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 Fair point. That is why I said we may have another Elway/Dickerson situation that year. Both superb players. That is, after all, what one should expect from the #1 and #2 players taken in a draft.You should expect it. Unless its the Cleveland Browns drafting. We fuck up top 5 picks constantly, and don't get me started on #22 picks. I would like for someone to tell me a team since the return of the Browns that has totally fucked up draft day worse than the Browns. Even as bad as the Browns. But don't worry folks! We have a baseball guy drafting for us now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 I feel like Soju after that post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 Impact of an OLB vs. a QB of the two SB participants? Why is there a debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 Impact of an OLB vs. a QB of the two SB participants? Why is there a debate? The debate isn't over who was more impactful in the super bowl. It's who is more valuable to their team. Or, another way to look at it, which team is shittier everywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 You should expect it. Unless its the Cleveland Browns drafting. We fuck up top 5 picks constantly, and don't get me started on #22 picks. I would like for someone to tell me a team since the return of the Browns that has totally fucked up draft day worse than the Browns. Even as bad as the Browns. But don't worry folks! We have a baseball guy drafting for us now! Actually, we don't. DePodesta's role is implementing the strategy of winning franchises on the back end. He'll probably have some minimal say, but he's not "drafting for us now". Come on man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeonman Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 Actually, we don't. DePodesta's role is implementing the strategy of winning franchises on the back end. He'll probably have some minimal say, but he's not "drafting for us now". Come on man. Chief Strategy Officer will have nothing to do with draft picks. Hard to believe. Hope you're right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 Chief Strategy Officer will have nothing to do with draft picks. Hard to believe. Hope you're right Right, but in either his introduction or a later press conference both Haslam and Sashi laid out what his basic responsibilities would be. Very little of it had to do with the draft, more had to do with evaluating other franchises to emulate how they structure their salary dispensation among positions and identifying trends and opportunities. I doubt he'll have any real say in who we draft, more like "hey, historically teams get equal return on this position in this round as they do in the first round". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 23, 2016 Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 The debate isn't over who was more impactful in the super bowl. It's who is more valuable to their team. Poor choice of words by me... my "SB participant" reference was simply meant to demonstrate that they were on the two most successful reams of 2016... not a reference to the game itself. Chief Strategy Officer will have nothing to do with draft picks. Hard to believe. Hope you're right I thought it was pretty clear from his intro that DePo will operate at the strategic level... direction of the team, metrics, decision processes. I think I see elements of this in the FA process. Making picks is a tactical decision that is hopefully guided by and aligned with the strategic vision. Sashi was firmly positioned to be the "decider" if a consensus cannot be reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2016 I'd venture a bet that the Miller-less Broncos finish with a better record than a Cam-less Panthers. Miller is an elite player on an otherwise talented defense. Cam is more or less the glue that held the Panthers offense together. Not downplaying the acheivements of Von, but Cam probably means more to the Panthers because, without him, they have almost nothing. This is very similar to the notion that Peyton should have won MVP in 2011.Peyton's absence led that Colts team to a meltdown, therefore he was clearly their most valuable player. Well, you would expect any QB to be more valuable to his team than any particular defensive player. But, just an aside....the Colts, I do not believe would have melted down nearly as bad if they had actually tried to play the game. With Peyton out that year they just decided to tank as many games on purpose as possible in order to be in a position for #1. They indeed sucked for Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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