Ben Franisco

[rich4eagle]

All views appreciated......from the experts here on Browns Board Baseball

[rich4eagle]

Thoughs on Ben Francisco and upcoming season. thanks for the views in advance

[Oldcrow1945]

Thoughs on Ben Francisco and upcoming season. thanks for the views in advance

 

I want to see him have a huge season as I do all Indians...But I simply think he's treading water until the Tribe calls Matt Laporta. And I think that will happen well before the half way point.

With Brantley and Laporta both not far away, I think Choo and Francisco are not long in an Indian's uniform.

 

Until Crowe was called back up due to Delluci's injury, I couldn't help but be amazed at the Columbus Clipper's outfield line up of Laporta, Brantley and Crowe.

Brantley will soon be moving Grady to the 3 hole where he Belongs and Laporta will probaby be batting lower but eventually #5 in the line up.

[CIMO.]

I'm hoping for Casey Blake numbers, with a little better average, little less power. And some solid defense in left.

 

Fans hated on Blake for holding back Andy Marte...it could get ugly with Francisco potentially blocking LaPorta and Brantley.

[Guest Masters]

Francisco will never be blocking LaPorta in the OF. LaPorta will not be an OF in the big leagues. Guy was two hopping the ball to the cut off man during both spring training games I went to. I don't ever want to see that guy regularly playing in the outfield at the big league level.

 

Francisco will likely become the 4th OF once Brantley makes it to the big league roster. Francisco is a good solid player who can do it all, but does nothing spectularly well. The guy is not a batting champ and MVP in the minors by sure luck.

[Oldcrow1945]

Francisco will never be blocking LaPorta in the OF. LaPorta will not be an OF in the big leagues. Guy was two hopping the ball to the cut off man during both spring training games I went to. I don't ever want to see that guy regularly playing in the outfield at the big league level.

 

Francisco will likely become the 4th OF once Brantley makes it to the big league roster. Francisco is a good solid player who can do it all, but does nothing spectularly well. The guy is not a batting champ and MVP in the minors by sure luck.

 

 

So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?

 

Ok...Sure.

 

LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.

Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.

[Guest Masters]

So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?

 

Ok...Sure.

 

LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.

Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.

 

If he is two hoping balls to the cut off man, yes I am saying that. 20 HRs doesn't make up for each single that becomes a double, and each extra run that scores because your LF can't even get the ball to the cut off man.

 

If Hafner fails, we'll just see more of Vic at DH, and yes CLE will DH a 24 year old if they don't have a position available for him to play. If he is weaker defensively than everyone else, you don't sacrafice the D for his bat, when you can have his bat and keep your strong D.

 

After seeing the kid, everyone might want to settle their enthusiasm for him. Brantley and Mills will get to the big league roster before Laporta. He is not the great hitter people are trying to make him out to be.

[CIMO.]

Your vendetta against LaPorta is pretty strange to me. He's ranked by virtually everyone as not just one of the tip top prospects in all of baseball, but also the most major league ready. The Brewers loved him, as he was the centerpiece for maybe the best Tribe player of the 2000s, the Indians love him, the reporters in Goodyear all loved him, Shapiro and Wedge both made it clear he had a huge spring where he bat .361 with an OPS over 1. He then gets sent to AAA where he'll be an everyday outfielder, and by pretty much all accounts, likely one of the first in AAA to get called up in '09.

 

But since you saw a couple games where he made a bad throw or two we should just take him off our radar. No offense but I'm not really buying it.

 

Unless Hafner goes on the DL I think they're going to give him every chance to succeed based on all the years and dollars left on his deal. But if it becomes mid-May and Shoppach or Garko are struggling, I could see LaPorta getting plugged at 1st. Other than that, or an injury at 1B/DH/RF, it's pretty much LF or AAA, in my opinion.

[Guest Masters]

Your vendetta against LaPorta is pretty strange to me. He's ranked by virtually everyone as not just one of the tip top prospects in all of baseball, but also the most major league ready. The Brewers loved him, as he was the centerpiece for maybe the best Tribe player of the 2000s, the Indians love him, the reporters in Goodyear all loved him, Shapiro and Wedge both made it clear he had a huge spring where he bat .361 with an OPS over 1. He then gets sent to AAA where he'll be an everyday outfielder, and by pretty much all accounts, likely one of the first in AAA to get called up in '09.

 

But since you saw a couple games where he made a bad throw or two we should just take him off our radar. No offense but I'm not really buying it.

 

Unless Hafner goes on the DL I think they're going to give him every chance to succeed based on all the years and dollars left on his deal. But if it becomes mid-May and Shoppach or Garko are struggling, I could see LaPorta getting plugged at 1st. Other than that, or an injury at 1B/DH/RF, it's pretty much LF or AAA, in my opinion.

 

It's not a vendeta. Just calling it as I saw w/ my own eyes (not some report in baseball weekley or elsewhere). I saw the dude at spring training in Goodyear. How many games have you watched him play in ever, batting practice, or fielding practice? Have you seen him throw in from the OF? I have. It wasn't a couple of bad throws. He did it in game and during fielding practice all the time. You can not buy it, but it happened.

 

You know who else was a top prospect, Marte? Don't take those ranking by sporting sources with a 100%. It's no different than NFL or other sports. Guys can have the tools, doesn't mean they can put them all together and produce.

 

People are expecting LaPorta to be some super player, but reality is he's done nothing yet. He had a decent spring, but Brantley, Mills, and Crowe had better springs.

 

Sure, if you got Garko or Shoppach struggling, he's got a better chance. But if CLE needs someone for 1st base, it will be Mills before Laporta, based on what I saw over the course of spring training.

 

Laporta may be end up being everything people hope and think he'll end up. But I don't believe it is going to be this season. The guy really hasn't seen that much time in the minors yet.

[Kosar_For_President]

So you are saying that if Ben Francisco struggles and Matt LaPorta hits 20 HR's before half, the Tribe won't call him to pay left?

 

Ok...Sure.

 

LaPorta's future may end up being as a DH. But when he first comes up he won't be a DH or 1st baseman. He'll be in the OF until they make moves and ultimately make him a 1st baseman or DH.

Even if Hafner fails in his comeback and they call LaPorta up they will not make the 24 year old a DH. 31 year old Martinez would probably move to DH while Shoppach takes over the full time catchign duties.

 

LaPorta is as slow as my grandmother, won't play left.

[Oldcrow1945]

People are expecting LaPorta to be some super player, but reality is he's done nothing yet. He had a decent spring, but Brantley, Mills, and Crowe had better springs.

 

Brantley Mills and Crowe had better springs? Huh? LaPorta hit .361. Mills hit .231

What in the world are you talking about?

 

Crowe hit .310 and Brantley hit .313.

 

Laporta averged less strikouts per at bat than Hafner, Shoppach and Peralta.

 

Laporta even managed 4 BB's. As many as Peralta in half as many AB's.

 

Laporta had a great spring! He had the best spring of all the young prospects.

[Oldcrow1945]

LaPorta is as slow as my grandmother, won't play left.

 

Ted Williams was notoriously slow too...... I think he did ok in right.

[Guest Masters]

Brantley Mills and Crowe had better springs? Huh? LaPorta hit .361. Mills hit .231

What in the world are you talking about?

 

Crowe hit .310 and Brantley hit .313.

 

Laporta averged less strikouts per at bat than Hafner, Shoppach and Peralta.

 

Laporta even managed 4 BB's. As many as Peralta in half as many AB's.

 

Laporta had a great spring! He had the best spring of all the young prospects.

 

You can't base judgement on spring ball based on stats. That would be like saying Cliff Lee is garbage because of his spring. Same as saying someone is a bad NFL player based on preseason stats.

 

You judge spring based on quality at bats, total play (mental and physical), etc. You don't get a credit w/ a hit if you hit the ball solid but it ends up right at someone. You're not having a good spring when your two hoping balls.

 

Again, I am not sayin Laporta is a bad prospect as a hitter. Not at all. But he in not ready for the big leagues and those other guys are far more ready. Physically and mentally. When I see Laporta, I still see a kid who was playing college ball 2 years ago. He may get there, and it might even be this year. But I'd temper my enthusiasm and expectation on him for right now. He ain't the next Manny coming up in CLE's farm system. He ain't even the next Joey Belle

[Guest Masters]

Ted Williams was notoriously slow too...... I think he did ok in right.

 

Ted Williams Laporta is not.

[CIMO.]

It sounds like you're basing his entire worth on two throwing errors. If the guy couldn't handle the outfield, he wouldn't still be there. Especially in an era when Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn can start in left field on opening day rosters...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate. And when you're trying to discredit his offense when he hit .361 with power, while drawing walks...I'm just not sure what you're trying to get at. Do we expect him to do for us what Manny did for the Dodgers last year? No. But he's an incredible prospect who can help us a lot this year.

[Oldcrow1945]

Ted Williams Laporta is not.

 

Not talking about his bat...talking about speed. Is it that difficult?

[Oldcrow1945]

You can't base judgement on spring ball based on stats. That would be like saying Cliff Lee is garbage because of his spring. Same as saying someone is a bad NFL player based on preseason stats.

 

You judge spring based on quality at bats, total play (mental and physical), etc. You don't get a credit w/ a hit if you hit the ball solid but it ends up right at someone. You're not having a good spring when your two hoping balls.

 

Of course you can't judge on Spring training....But it was you that brought spring training into the discussion by saying Mills had a better one......And To say a .231 hitter had a better spring than a .361 hitter is beyond ridiculous.

[Oldcrow1945]

...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate.

 

It's funny you mention that....Wedge was talking about tbis very thing when he spoke of Jhonny Peralta....He said he was underrated because while he didnt make the spectacular plays, he didn't make mistakes on the ones he was suppose to field...That along with his hitting makes him one of the best Shortstops in the game....Per Wedge.

 

This is all Wedge wants a player to do. Make the plays your are suppose to and hit.

[Guest Masters]

It sounds like you're basing his entire worth on two throwing errors. If the guy couldn't handle the outfield, he wouldn't still be there. Especially in an era when Manny Ramirez and Adam Dunn can start in left field on opening day rosters...all he has to do is the make the routine plays and mash at the plate. And when you're trying to discredit his offense when he hit .361 with power, while drawing walks...I'm just not sure what you're trying to get at. Do we expect him to do for us what Manny did for the Dodgers last year? No. But he's an incredible prospect who can help us a lot this year.

 

This is not just two throwing errors (and when have you seen a guy in the big leagues two hop the ball to the cut off man more than once). He was also doing that during practice. Practice. Both Manny and Dunn can gun a guy down at the plate too. That's a bit different than even being able throw the ball far enough to hit the cut off man.

 

Where in gods green earth did I discredit his power or drawing walks? Unless you mean me just saying Brantley and Mills had better springs as over all players, and saying a BA in spring training don't mean squat. It's spring training. What your BA is in spring training is like what your record is.

 

He' a good prospect, no doubt. But I don't buy for one second he'll help this team little this year, let a lone a lot. I hate to piss in peoples cheerios, but he ain't gonne be Longoria this season. I think expecting him to do as well as Choo did during the second half of last season is the best case for LaPorta this season.

 

I also stand behind "how much have you seen Laporta actually play?" I may be not be a MLB scout, but I've seen more of him than what is in baseball weekley.

[Guest Masters]

Not talking about his bat...talking about speed. Is it that difficult?

 

So am I. Did you see Williams play in his prime? Is this the same era of players and athletes? Meaning you can't even dare to compare Laporta to Williams in any way. Is that difficult?

[Guest Masters]

Of course you can't judge on Spring training....But it was you that brought spring training into the discussion by saying Mills had a better one......And To say a .231 hitter had a better spring than a .361 hitter is beyond ridiculous.

 

That's the point. You can't base success based on spring training stats. You have to look inside and behind the numbers. When did they hit, against who, what was the situation, working counts, moving a runner (that doesn't show up in a box score!) how did they do over all as a player, etc.

 

You look behind the numbers, Mills did better all around.

 

To say that looking at a box score of .231 vs. .361 decides who had a better over all spring as a potential big league player now is beyond rediculous and Retarded. Did you think DA actually had a really good year for all of 2007 too?

[Beanpot]

Well this has been an odd thread.

 

Brings back memories of the Grandstand days while reading one guy try to trump the other with "I saw it with my own two eyes - IN PERSON!" silliness.

 

Yeah, spring training stats are as about important as first-hand spring training observations. I say this as a guy who has visited ST camps for nearly 15 years. The experience is nice, the idea that you (generic) have some sort of insight that others can't begin to comprehend is, to borrow a word, rediculous.

 

That excludes the fun stuff involving partying with the players in Phoenix or Tampa and knowing who is a terrific guy and who is an a-hole away from the diamond, but you're not going to learn much about the on-the-diamond stuff that everyone else doesn't know a zillion miles away.

 

Masters, you seem to enjoy confrontation. As a guy enjoys it more than you do, I find that plenty cool. But you're also the guy who decried that OPS was a "made up stat (that) came into existance like 4 years ago " - exact words - in an earlier thread. And now you're suggesting that we look both inside and BEHIND the numbers to reach the conclusion that's supported by your observation.

 

And then the "Retarded" dig at the end that's oh-so-3rd-grade.

 

Have to tell you, I've read all of your posts on this thread and I can't help but come to the conclusion that CIMO and Oldcrow1945 have been nothing short of kind to you.

 

And that they've owned you.

 

Beanpot

[Oldcrow1945]

So am I. Did you see Williams play in his prime? Is this the same era of players and athletes? Meaning you can't even dare to compare Laporta to Williams in any way. Is that difficult?

 

Same era and Athletes? This is not the NFL or the NBA. Because of size of the athletes those two sports are hard to compare....... But as far as I know baseball fields are the same basic dimensions now as they were in 1949.....meaning the same speed is needed to cover the same amount ground in the OF. It doesn't matter if you played in 1949 or 2009 when it comes to playing outfield. That being the case, why in the world would it matter if you compared LaPorta's Speed in the outfield and William's speed in the outfield? The game is exactly the same when it comes to that.....And I'm here to tell you that Ted Williams was notoriously slow.

 

My dad was a huge baseball fan and I remember him talking about Williams my whole life.....He always told me that while Willams was easily the greatest hitter of all time, he didn't rank him as the greatest player of all time because he missed out on one thing that guys like Dimaggio and Mantle had.....Quickness. Dad said Mantle was the most talented and if not for his boozing who know what he could've done......He already was a Gold glover, rocket arm, steals bases, hit for average, hit for power and switch hit. Amazing stuff.

When it comes to Williams I can only speak to the obvious things such as film and stats, but I had the most reliable source I've ever known to relate baseball history to me. My dad.

[Beanpot]

When it comes to Williams I can only speak to the obvious things such as film and stats, but I had the most reliable source I've ever known to relate baseball history to me. My dad.

 

I agree with everything you wrote before this, but the above is the money line. Great stuff.

 

I'm barely capable when it comes to math but I do enjoy reading all I can when it comes to advanced metrics. Today, argument enders often involve some sort of statistic that attempts to neutralize era and park. And those argument enders meet other enders involving other stats that favor peak over career or the other way around. All very convincing.

 

What they don't include is passed-down observation. And to me, that's the most enjoyable to read.

 

Beanpot

[Guest Masters]

Well this has been an odd thread.

 

Brings back memories of the Grandstand days while reading one guy try to trump the other with "I saw it with my own two eyes - IN PERSON!" silliness.

 

Yeah, spring training stats are as about important as first-hand spring training observations. I say this as a guy who has visited ST camps for nearly 15 years. The experience is nice, the idea that you (generic) have some sort of insight that others can't begin to comprehend is, to borrow a word, rediculous.

 

That excludes the fun stuff involving partying with the players in Phoenix or Tampa and knowing who is a terrific guy and who is an a-hole away from the diamond, but you're not going to learn much about the on-the-diamond stuff that everyone else doesn't know a zillion miles away.

 

Masters, you seem to enjoy confrontation. As a guy enjoys it more than you do, I find that plenty cool. But you're also the guy who decried that OPS was a "made up stat (that) came into existance like 4 years ago " - exact words - in an earlier thread. And now you're suggesting that we look both inside and BEHIND the numbers to reach the conclusion that's supported by your observation.

 

And then the "Retarded" dig at the end that's oh-so-3rd-grade.

 

Have to tell you, I've read all of your posts on this thread and I can't help but come to the conclusion that CIMO and Oldcrow1945 have been nothing short of kind to you.

 

And that they've owned you.

 

Beanpot

 

I suggest you go back and read the posts. I was nothing but cordial to start until I was told I have a vendetta or having my statement turned into me saying Laporta isn't a good hitter, after pointing out that LaPorta has defensive struggles. I stand behind what I saw. And this isn't about a swing hitch or anything else from the grandstand. I saw the guy over, and over not be able to throw a base ball from the outfield to a cutoff man. I don't mean missing the guy. The ball was regularly one hoping to get there. If I only saw it during a game, I wouldn't give it a thought.

 

All I have said is temper the enthuesasim and expectations for Laporta this year. He may end up a great player, but I don't see it happening this year. Same as when early in spring everyone was about ready to write off Pronk's power (yet there he is w/ two dingers already), and I said to temper that fear.

 

If being owned is being told an unknown prospect will be fantastic this year and be replacing guys on the roster, so be it.

 

I would also guess that being told I was own is above "so third-grade"? By the way, I very clearly called a notion Retarded, not a person. There was no personal dig. If I wanted to take a personal dig, I could now say your reading skills are third grade.

 

I'll also stand behind my OPS comment from before. It is the baseball equivalent of QBR. It's a data point, nothing more. It didn't even start showing up on baseball cards until 2004 (that would be about 4 years ago wouldn't it?). It's a formula that first showed up in 1984 in a book by John Thorn and Pete Palmer's, The Hidden Game of Baseball. Then guys like Gammons started preaching it some years later.

 

And if sticking by my opinion makes me confrontational, so be it.

[Beanpot]

I suggest you go back and read the posts.

 

Yeah, I suggest you write with a little more substance before asking people to read your words twice.

 

I’ve read the posts that pushed you past the cordial stage and honestly, you just seemed to become unglued and went straight into defensive mode.

 

I was nothing but cordial to start until I was told I have a vendetta or having my statement turned into me saying Laporta isn't a good hitter, after pointing out that LaPorta has defensive struggles.

 

The only part I’m concerned about is everything after “until” - you asked that everyone temper their expectations based on throws from the outfield and then closed with a comment about LaPorta not being the great hitter everyone makes him out to be.

 

And then you went off on some weird rant about you being the sole adjudicator of reason based on your time in Arizona.

 

All I have said is temper the enthuesasim and expectations for Laporta this year. He may end up a great player, but I don't see it happening this year. Same as when early in spring everyone was about ready to write off Pronk's power (yet there he is w/ two dingers already), and I said to temper that fear.

 

Terrific. You could have done all that minus the tone

 

I would also guess that being told I was own is above "so third-grade"? By the way, I very clearly called a notion Retarded, not a person. There was no personal dig. If I wanted to take a personal dig, I could now say your reading skills are third grade.

 

You could do just that. You could call a notion Retarded, reading skills Retarded, anything you'd like Retarded. I’d call you nothing more than a guy with a limited vocabulary in each case. What I know is that I hadn’t even read the thread when I was alerted to your comments and then I heard from another person after my post. My “reading skills” didn’t bring me to the thread, your behavior did.

 

I'll also stand behind my OPS comment from before. It is the baseball equivalent of QBR. It's a data point, nothing more. It didn't even start showing up on baseball cards until 2004 (that would be about 4 years ago wouldn't it?). It's a formula that first showed up in 1984 in a book by John Thorn and Pete Palmer's, The Hidden Game of Baseball. Then guys like Gammons started preaching it some years later.

 

The man reads Wikipedia! Now I don’t know why you put so much stock into when a statistic appears on the back of baseball cards, but that just must be your thing.

 

And if sticking by my opinion makes me confrontational, so be it.

 

It has nothing to do with sticking to your opinion. What makes you confrontational is that you act like a rude, boorish child at times. I’ll politely ask that you do better. If not, so be it indeed.

 

Beanpot

[Oldcrow1945]

.

There was no personal dig. If I wanted to take a personal dig, I could now say your reading skills are third grade.

 

Now Bean is owning you and you just continue to prove his point with your own words.

 

[kshutchins]

I also stand behind "how much have you seen Laporta actually play?" I may be not be a MLB scout, but I've seen more of him than what is in baseball weekley.

 

The coaches and managers who see Laporta play every day have him in left field. What do you suppose they see in him that compels them to put him at that position if his arm is as poor as you contend it is? Maybe they see him play more often than even YOU do. How did Baseball Weekly get brought into this anyway?

 

FYI, when you hop onto a message board like this and paint a target on your chest, you shouldn't be surprised when folks take aim.

[rich4eagle]

The coaches and managers who see Laporta play every day have him in left field. What do you suppose they see in him that compels them to put him at that position if his arm is as poor as you contend it is? Maybe they see him play more often than even YOU do. How did Baseball Weekly get brought into this anyway?

 

FYI, when you hop onto a message board like this and paint a target on your chest, you shouldn't be surprised when folks take aim.

 

 

Kathy had lunch in Greenville Easter Sunday with some bikers from Charlotte........ate at Smoke on the River or some such.......great lunch

 

better was the happeing on Easter at the falls totally beautiful................GREAT Day