The Gipper Posted March 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 since 1973 Santana has won 10 grammys and been nominated for 14. Pretty impressive. since 1989 Metallica has won 8 grammys and been nominated for 17. Total niche act. Ah...but two things: "Metallica" is certainly a well known brand name. But we weren't talking about Metallica. We are talking about individual icons. And David Hetfield's name isn't so well known as his band. And yes, I have no doubt that in the category "Heavy Metal artists" Metallica would likely have won many Grammy's. Metallica as a brand may come close to Santana. Hetfield as a brand does not come close to Santana. And they both earn a debt of gratitude to Chuck Berry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Tbh I've never heard of either, so if you're going for most well known, they both fall way, way short of someone like springsteen or paul mccartney. Never heard of Santana? Have you heard of Chuck Berry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Ah...but two things: "Metallica" is certainly a well known brand name. But we weren't talking about Metallica. We are talking about individual icons. And David Hetfield's name isn't so well known as his band. And yes, I have no doubt that in the category "Heavy Metal artists" Metallica would likely have won many Grammy's. Metallica as a brand may come close to Santana. Hetfield as a brand does not come close to Santana. And they both earn a debt of gratitude to Chuck Berry. it is fair to say, as well that multiple Santana grammy's have been in niche categories such as 'Latin music' or 'World music". He did win best album for Supernatural in 99 which, in my opinion, was richly deserved. It was a fantastic album, but it did , to be fair, owe a debt other artists that featured on it, most notably Rob Thomas of Matchbox 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 gft, you've heard of Dave Grohl, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Santana is undoubtably a Latin music icon but in the realm of larger 'rock' I don't know. Just being well known is not enough, to me. Billy Joel is incredibly well known with substantially more hits and better sales than Santana and I don't think I would call him a rock Icon either. I certainly like him quite a bit, Ive seen him twice in concert myself, but he's not a rock icon. He plays rock music. He's got a lot of hits. he sells a ton of shows. Rock Icon? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Santana is undoubtably a Latin music icon but in the realm of larger 'rock' I don't know. Just being well known is not enough, to me. Billy Joel is incredibly well known with substantially more hits and better sales than Santana and I don't think I would call him a rock Icon either. I certainly like him quite a bit, Ive seen him twice in concert myself, but he's not a rock icon. He plays rock music. He's got a lot of hits. he sells a ton of shows. Rock Icon? I don't think so. If you don't think Santana or Billy Joel are Icons....then you have no business trying to foist Dave/Dan/James Hatfield on us. Better luck with Grandpa McCoy. I mean, I still get this image in my brain: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I know it can't be totally objective....but I think that there can be a fairly clear situation about who is more famous...if you will. I mean, objectively....if I came up with some name that you had never heard of, I don't think that I could really have a claim that that is one of the most famous persons alive. Would you argue against the proposition that Paul McCartney is one of the most famous persons alive? >>Any objective listing on this subject pretty much has to have Paul McCartney at the top of it.>> Maybe I took you literal, Gip, and thought you said that - by any objective measure - McCartney has to be #1. Maybe I'm out lawyering the lawyer Yes, I would say that McCartney is one of the most iconic Rock figures in the world. You can probably take 'Rock' out of the previous sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browns52 Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Just to play devils advocate.....James Hetfield and Metallica play to a very select group that likes heavy metal rock and, while they are icons of that genre, there music really doesnt cross over much into groups that like other types of music...so, they have a fairly focused group of fans, that is about 30 years into listening to them.... Santana....however....has been doing it for 50 years and crosses several genres....rock, pop, latin, percussive.....they also have attracted more fans from different generations....and Carlos pretty much created his own genre that sounds like no one but him..... while, I think a lot of people would tell you that Metallica sounds like a million other bands(or vice versa) and definitely didnt create their own genre.....so, I know its all perspective, but I have to believe Santana has touched and influence way more people, in way more musical genres for way more time..... agree....saw them perform right after woodstock.around 1970..".soul sacrifice"....yeah man....still like carlos today...have alot of his music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 >>Any objective listing on this subject pretty much has to have Paul McCartney at the top of it.>> Maybe I took you literal, Gip, and thought you said that - by any objective measure - McCartney has to be #1. Maybe I'm out lawyering the lawyer Not sure....if you would outlawyer me. Let's put it this way: I would take his case for the #1 living Rock Idol over anyone else really. Yes, I would say that McCartney is one of the most iconic Rock figures in the world. You can probably take 'Rock' out of the previous sentence. Sure...anyone in any field. Who is more iconic...in any field? Good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 If you don't think Santana or Billy Joel are Icons....then you have no business trying to foist Dave/Dan/James Hatfield on us. Better luck with Grandpa McCoy. I mean, I still get this image in my brain: I don't like what you say, waaah. I don't know who dave Grohl is waaah. For a lawyer you are both a condescending douche, which is probably to be expected from someone in your profession, and also a baby, which us surprising. Both Grohl and Mettallica have earned their statuses. Both are every bit as or more successful as santana and billy Joel and the likes of them. You are stunted. It's like time stopped for you around 1978. Like it or not, these guys are now the elder statesmen of rock and they influence the younger generations of rock fans as much as they themselves were influenced by the likes of Led Zeppelin and the Beatles. Our friend across the pond there has never even heard of santana. That, to me, justifies my position on his iconic status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 You think these three guys would agree that dave grohl is a nobody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I'm sure these guys would agree that he hasn't achieved iconic status Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 >>Any objective listing on this subject pretty much has to have Paul McCartney at the top of it.>> Maybe I took you literal, Gip, and thought you said that - by any objective measure - McCartney has to be #1. Maybe I'm out lawyering the lawyer Not sure....if you would outlawyer me. Let's put it this way: I would take his case for the #1 living Rock Idol over anyone else really. Yes, I would say that McCartney is one of the most iconic Rock figures in the world. You can probably take 'Rock' out of the previous sentence. Sure...anyone in any field. Who is more iconic...in any field? Good question. So you are voicing an opinion. This is based on subjectivity, not objectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Who is more iconic than mccartney in any field? Muhammad Ali? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Never heard of Santana? Have you heard of Chuck Berry? Not really. Yes. gft, you've heard of Dave Grohl, yes? Yes, but I'm sure plenty of others have not. My parents for example. On most iconic, you probably have to go across generations, and people like mccartney do that. the boss also. outside of them, in terms of *living* I'm not sure. maybe slash? probably ringo starr as well I suppose. brian may. ozzy osbourne will have to be in contention as well. Maybe I have a british bias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Sure they should Chris. We're just talking about top 5, I think. I figure if you ask everybody from 85 years old down to 15 the most recognized artists would be the ones you're looking for. If you just take 15 to 25 Katy Perry would be an icon. One name we haven't mentioned is Madonna who I assume is known across the board. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Sure they should Chris. We're just talking about top 5, I think. I figure if you ask everybody from 85 years old down to 15 the most recognized artists would be the ones you're looking for. If you just take 15 to 25 Katy Perry would be an icon. One name we haven't mentioned is Madonna who I assume is known across the board. WSS Rock only - does she count? Maybe. As for being in contention, I would argue ozzy (and his bat head biting and, well, iconic look) would have to be up there, rather than someone who was an excellent musician, but never really gained individual fame (such as people like jimmy paige and brian may). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 No one mentioned Elton John who probably trumps most others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Yes. Good shout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Why wouldn't Madonna or Katy Perry count in the Rock category? Kenny G and Sun Ra are both jazz. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I don't like what you say, waaah. I don't know who dave Grohl is waaah. You mistake me. Its not that I don't like what you say....I just don't care what you say. And again, how can someone who I have never heard of be considered an icon. For a lawyer you are both a condescending douche, which is probably to be expected from someone in your profession, So...I see you have been on the losing end of lawsuits....pretty much can tell by the attitude. I eat schlub's like you for breakfast...so naturally you are resentful...because you have probably been served up a few times. and also a baby, which us surprising. Both Grohl and Mettallica have earned their statuses. Within their niche that you are enthralled, I don't debate. Both are every bit as or more successful as santana and billy Joel and the likes of them. Except, of course, they are not anywhere near household names. Again....do the Public Square test...and see how many people know Grohl and Hetfield....and again....."Metallica" does NOT count. Metallica is clearly, as noted, a well known name. But the guy from the band is not. You are stunted. It's like time stopped for you around 1978. Like it or not, these guys are now the elder statesmen of rock and they influence the younger generations of rock fans as much as they themselves were influenced by the likes of Led Zeppelin and the Beatles. I think you have lost complete insight as to what this thread is. The title is "Who are the 5 greatest living Rock Icons". So: A. A band does not qualify. It must be a person. and B. It does not ask who YOU like best or are more influenced by. (and I dont debate that many headbangers have been influenced by Metallica) As for your question about time stopping post 1978...it is the closest you have come to making an accurate statement. But ever there again, not really.....but a little. It would be more like 1985. BUT...I still know who would be iconic post that era....as that is the point of someone being an icon...EVERYONE knows who they are. In fact....maybe I will start a new thread....you give me an idea. Our friend across the pond there has never even heard of santana. That, to me, justifies my position on his iconic status. I don't think that Santana is one of the Top Ten icons. But I will still wager that if you do the Public Square test, many more will still know him than know whatshisname...Jim Hatefilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 You think these three guys would agree that dave grohl is a nobody? Again....who is being the douche. You get your panties in a bunch because your opinion gets questioned. You sound like a real fragile personality. The issue wasn't whether or not he is or is not somebody.....the issue was....is he one of the Top Icons alive today? By the way....who does he play with again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Rock only - does she count? Maybe. As for being in contention, I would argue ozzy (and his bat head biting and, well, iconic look) would have to be up there, rather than someone who was an excellent musician, but never really gained individual fame (such as people like jimmy paige and brian may). If anyone is a heavy metal Icon...I believe it would be Ozzy. I mean...Sysko arguing for Gruel or Hatfield over Ozzy would be like Steve actually arguing for Gerry Marsden or Gary Brooker over Paul McCartney. And for guys on the fringe perhaps of the heavy meta genre....Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley would be bigger icons. Axl Rose. Angus Young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 No one mentioned Elton John who probably trumps most others See the very first post of this thread. I had him in the 5-10 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 WSS In checking....wasn't Grohl actually second fiddle to Cobain in Nirvana? So, what was the status there....was it a Lennon/McCartney type collaboration....or was Grohl the George Harrison of that act.....not getting his own legs until he was on his own. (what I have heard of the Foo Fighters, I have generally liked). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 The fantastic Robert Zimmerman's name has yet to be mentioned. IMHO, he - at least - deserves among those nominated. He would turn heads, walking down the street - perhaps that is all we are talking about any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 See the very first post of this thread. I had him in the 5-10 range. I had him in my top 5 too.....as well as JTP....so, actually mentioned 3 times on the first page alone.... The fantastic Robert Zimmerman's name has yet to be mentioned. IMHO, he - at least - deserves among those nominated. Cant say I even know who he is.....but probably will do a big ""DOH"" when you tell me..... In checking....wasn't Grohl actually second fiddle to Cobain in Nirvana? So, what was the status there....was it a Lennon/McCartney type collaboration....or was Grohl the George Harrison of that act.....not getting his own legs until he was on his own. (what I have heard of the Foo Fighters, I have generally liked). No....he was basically Nirvanas drummer......but then became front man - singer - guitarist for the Foo Fighters who have had huge success.....so, he really deserves mad props for being in 2 massively huge bands....and being great at several roles as a drummer, guitarist, singer and writer....so.....Id say definitely an icon to many and bit of a legend in his own time..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 Robert Zimmerman = Bob Dylan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 DOH!.....(told ya)... Though I can say I never knew that.....thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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