wargograw Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 I think Bosa's a lot better than Buckner, but that's just me. Certainly, all the pundits are starting to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Larry didn't link Goff. I didn't see that link. I know... stings doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 A stellar performance in shorts and tees would have eliminated some of those concerns, but it kind of created another bit of doubt. Agree... Combine should at a minimum confirm game tape perceptions. Joey's simply did not... not even mine which were more reserved than some around here. When I see McShay's name, I start getting sick.I can't believe they PAY him. In comparison to Kiper, I love McShay. Watch all of his games, this is NOT a problem. He has this ability, and you can see it. I have watched as many 2015 cutdowns as I could find, 5 in all, and I can't see it, Mike... at least not from the broadcast footage. Edit: DraftBreakdown now has all 7 of his 2015 games. http://draftbreakdown.com/players/carson-wentz/ Are there any all 22 links you can supply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I have watched as many 2015 cutdowns as I could find, 5 in all, and I can't see it, Mike... at least not from the broadcast footage. Edit: DraftBreakdown now has all 7 of his 2015 games. http://draftbreakdown.com/players/carson-wentz/ Are there any all 22 links you can supply? I don't have time to make cut ups or clips, and didn't record specific time stamps in my notes, but ITP produced a good cut up of one play that he displays it. https://youtu.be/suvMyu_uYOg?t=2m21s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 About three of us Well, if we do pick Wentz it sounds like your name is attached to him, and for all of our sake, hopefully it's you who's beating his own chest, proclaiming your greatness as he becomes the 1st QB to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl. I'm hoping we trade back, but either way, it will be interesting for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Well, if we do pick Wentz it sounds like your name is attached to him, and for all of our sake, hopefully it's you who's beating his own chest, proclaiming your greatness as he becomes the 1st QB to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl. I'm hoping we trade back, but either way, it will be interesting for sure. I wouldn't go that far. Maybe a nice casual "I told you so" every now and then. Beating my chest would feel a bit disingenuous because I also believe Goff will be a good NFL pro, and it's not fair to subscribe to both camps and then mouth off when one does well. Although, if it goes the other way, and Wentz sucks... When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at. When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at. When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on. Luckily for me, I'm pretty good at both, but neither is easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I'm solidly in the Wentz camp now & even though TCPO & I have butted heads at times, he came out some time ago, before most of us even knew who Wentz was, & said he was the top QB in this draft class. He has never wavered from his stance & for that, he has my respect. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Links to any raw footage are fine, Mike... Time is something I have plenty of. On the link you provided... I see the initial look Schofield points out. Wentz definitely checked out the rotation of the Safety high. But I disagree with his assessment of the correctness of the read. Also note that the Corners tipped the coverage with the one to the top shaded inside and the slot shaded outside. My take is everything points to targeting the TE running the post once he clears the LBs under. The TE post essentially wrong foots the Safety rolling to the single high and the CB to the top is locked into man-on-man and running himself out of the play. Clearing the flat-footed LB should have been a given... should have been seen. Even allowing for the influence of the throw on the single-high safety, I think the TE was a much easier completion. But it was a completion that required seeing the window, not an open receiver. In the Pros, with limited downfield contact allowed, a back shoulder to the single-covered WR would be a viable choice as well. Again, viable only if the window is recognized. Instead I see Wentz electing to throw into the teeth of the coverage... and a bit behind his WR to boot. A completion to the wrong receiver in my eyes. I think he saw an open receiver there... in a window. Interestingly I was critiquing a Schofield article over on Reddit earlier today. http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/01/defendants-brief-reply-draft-evaluators-v-carson-wentz/ Only have gotten as far as his initial comparison of Goff and Wentz's footwork... with which I also shockingly disagreed. But then Scho was claiming that Wentz standing still was footwork. I do like Scho's toys though... Interestingly the same defense used in your clip was used in a red zone situation against Wentz in the article's first example of his standing still footwork... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at. When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on. What asshole came up with... oh... nevermind... I'm solidly in the Wentz camp now & even though TCPO & I have butted heads at times, he came out some time ago, before most of us even knew who Wentz was, & said he was the top QB in this draft class. He has never wavered from his stance & for that, he has my respect. lol... FFS, Mike at least wait until it's at least looking like he's right... You know, like it's looking like he was about Bortles... and Jameis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Thanks, Mike. And you, Tour. We butt heads but it's all in good fun, even if it does get a little dirty. But let's also call it like it is, I thought Manziel would be our starter next season and that Zac Dysert had a chance at becoming a starting NFL QB. So it all evens out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Butting heads is fun... when it's over a topic... ... and you're welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Well, if we do pick Wentz it sounds like your name is attached to him, and for all of our sake, hopefully it's you who's beating his own chest, proclaiming your greatness as he becomes the 1st QB to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl. I'm hoping we trade back, but either way, it will be interesting for sure. Well, we have a poster here that still thinks Trent Richardson has a future in the NFL, and Manziel doesn't have a serious drinking problem. He guessed right on Matthieu, but blind squirrels find nuts occasionally. We have a lower floor here than most boards, but we also have a higher ceiling. I wouldn't go that far. Maybe a nice casual "I told you so" every now and then. Beating my chest would feel a bit disingenuous because I also believe Goff will be a good NFL pro, and it's not fair to subscribe to both camps and then mouth off when one does well. Although, if it goes the other way, and Wentz sucks... When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at. When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on. Oh, we have a few major "I told you so" types around. Our resident accordion player for one. It's easy to predict disaster when the Browns have done nothing in general but suck since 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Links to any raw footage are fine, Mike... Time is something I have plenty of. On the link you provided... I see the initial look Schofield points out. Wentz definitely checked out the rotation of the Safety high. But I disagree with his assessment of the correctness of the read. Also note that the Corners tipped the coverage with the one to the top shaded inside and the slot shaded outside. My take is everything points to targeting the TE running the post once he clears the LBs under. The TE post essentially wrong foots the Safety rolling to the single high and the CB to the top is locked into man-on-man and running himself out of the play. Clearing the flat-footed LB should have been a given... should have been seen. Even allowing for the influence of the throw on the single-high safety, I think the TE was a much easier completion. But it was a completion that required seeing the window, not an open receiver. In the Pros, with limited downfield contact allowed, a back shoulder to the single-covered WR would be a viable choice as well. Again, viable only if the window is recognized. Instead I see Wentz electing to throw into the teeth of the coverage... and a bit behind his WR to boot. A completion to the wrong receiver in my eyes. I think he saw an open receiver there... in a window. Interestingly I was critiquing a Schofield article over on Reddit earlier today. http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/01/defendants-brief-reply-draft-evaluators-v-carson-wentz/ Only have gotten as far as his initial comparison of Goff and Wentz's footwork... with which I also shockingly disagreed. But then Scho was claiming that Wentz standing still was footwork. I do like Scho's toys though... Interestingly the same defense used in your clip was used in a red zone situation against Wentz in the article's first example of his standing still footwork... Good stuff. Didn't read the Reddit thing or any of Schofeld's other work extensively. I'm trying to keep away from reading too much while I finish up my evals. But I do disagree that he threw into the teeth of the defense. You're nitpicking this play a little bit too much IMO. He read the field, processed what he saw quickly, and completed a pass into a tight-ish window. A very nice, catchable first down pass, I might add, that fell in between two defenders. And Larry asked if Wentz can process information fast enough. I don't think -- no, I know -- that even highly successful quarterbacks without the benefit of hindsight, will miss a read or hypothetical window multiple times per game. I'm curious to your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Good stuff. Didn't read the Reddit thing or any of Schofeld's other work extensively. I'm trying to keep away from reading too much while I finish up my evals. But I do disagree that he threw into the teeth of the defense. You're nitpicking this play a little bit too much IMO. He read the field, processed what he saw quickly, and completed a pass into a tight-ish window. A very nice, catchable first down pass, I might add, that fell in between two defenders. And Larry asked if Wentz can process information fast enough. I don't think -- no, I know -- that even highly successful quarterbacks without the benefit of hindsight, will miss a read or hypothetical window multiple times per game. I'm curious to your thoughts. First... me nitpick? lol.... Did look again and that second look at the WR right that Wentz took... that was what the Safety told him to do, so that's one good read for Kid Carson. But then he did look at the TE and should have been right about the time he was even with the LILB (an all-22 would erase all doubt). That was the throw, right there. Just feels like he had to see a WR open that play... same as many other throws in the five games I've watched him. The requisite anticipation may come, but I already see it in "the other guy"... regularly. Yup, between two defenders and over a third, but (nitpick alert) the throw was slightly behind the slot receiver and the place to miss was definitely inside given the RCB closing from his near sideline zone responsibility. Wentz is not shy about forcing a ball into coverage... which the body count of three converging defenders tells me was the "teeth" in this play. That worked at the FCS level, but NFL??? Only the single high was in position to close on the TE. Totally agree with your point that even All-Pros miss reads. We saw P. Manning do it in CLE this past year. But we don't see them do it repeatedly into the same look. Check out the first "footwork play" for Wentz in the article I linked above. Same D... same progression, but this time CW locked onto his first progression and threw incomplete in his direction while two other receivers put the single-high in a terrible bind. I think either may have been a TD, but am certain the top of these two (again the TE IIRC) was an easy 6. What I need to do is watch that game's cut-up in its entirety and see how any other throws against the same D fared. Hard for me to judge processing speed when I question the ultimate decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 From Johnny Football to "Kid Carson". I like the ring of it Tour. It's so.................................Brownsian. Better than #20 whatever I suppose. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 As long as Wentz doesn't see it and think "trademark"... Of course if we do go the way of a certain defender, there's always... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I always laugh when I compare Elvis's version with some true bossa nova like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od8FFfhnxN8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 First... me nitpick? lol.... Did look again and that second look at the WR right that Wentz took... that was what the Safety told him to do, so that's one good read for Kid Carson. But then he did look at the TE and should have been right about the time he was even with the LILB (an all-22 would erase all doubt). That was the throw, right there. Just feels like he had to see a WR open that play... same as many other throws in the five games I've watched him. The requisite anticipation may come, but I already see it in "the other guy"... regularly. Yup, between two defenders and over a third, but (nitpick alert) the throw was slightly behind the slot receiver and the place to miss was definitely inside given the RCB closing from his near sideline zone responsibility. Wentz is not shy about forcing a ball into coverage... which the body count of three converging defenders tells me was the "teeth" in this play. That worked at the FCS level, but NFL??? Only the single high was in position to close on the TE. Totally agree with your point that even All-Pros miss reads. We saw P. Manning do it in CLE this past year. But we don't see them do it repeatedly into the same look. Check out the first "footwork play" for Wentz in the article I linked above. Same D... same progression, but this time CW locked onto his first progression and threw incomplete in his direction while two other receivers put the single-high in a terrible bind. I think either may have been a TD, but am certain the top of these two (again the TE IIRC) was an easy 6. What I need to do is watch that game's cut-up in its entirety and see how any other throws against the same D fared. Hard for me to judge processing speed when I question the ultimate decision. Off tomorrow, I'll take a look at the RZ play. Worth noting CW had the highest (by far) RZ numbers in this QB class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 As long as Wentz doesn't see it and think "trademark"... Of course if we do go the way of a certain defender, there's always... LOL, Hanford Dixon has said he'd be a much richer man if he had trademarked "Dawg Pound" while he had the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 LOL, Hanford Dixon has said he'd be a much richer man if he had trademarked "Dawg Pound" while he had the chance. Didn't the '85 Bears try and jack that from us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 LOL, Hanford Dixon has said he'd be a much richer man if he had trademarked "Dawg Pound" while he had the chance. Wasn't Hanford's exact thing "The Dogs of the Defense"? I remember that slogan on a poster with him in a tux (white?) with a few dogs on leash... maybe Afghans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2620894-north-dakota-state-offensive-coordinator-explains-carson-wentzs-draft-ascension?is_shared=true This is a very interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 "Wentz only started two seasons and played in a run-dominant scheme." What could go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joedawg69 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Well D Bone, at least he shouldn't have as many bad habits from throwing out of a shotgun formation all the time right?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2620894-north-dakota-state-offensive-coordinator-explains-carson-wentzs-draft-ascension?is_shared=true This is a very interesting read. "What says more than anything about getting to the point where we are now, Carson prepared like he was the guy every day for three years. When his chance to start finally came, he was more than ready to go. That says a lot, especially in today’s culture and society. For him to dig in when he wasn’t starting, he was still considered one of our leaders—which is really difficult to do when you play quarterback and you’re not the guy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 "Wentz only started two seasons and played in a run-dominant scheme." What could go wrong? Worked out well for Luck at Stanford. Not that I'm saying they're the same. However Stanford was a run first/heavy run team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Worked out well for Luck at Stanford. Not that I'm saying they're the same. However Stanford was a run first/heavy run team. The difference with Luck was he played for one of the top teams in the country, against some of the best competition in the country. Also, he was the #1 rated QB for his final 2yrs, not just from a weekend in shorts and a tank top......... Big, big difference between the two. Not even close. I'm not saying he won't be the Browns savior, hopefully he will, but he is a reach, especially at 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Worked out well for Luck at Stanford. Not that I'm saying they're the same. However Stanford was a run first/heavy run team. Despite the fact that the article had overwhelming positive and interesting quotes regarding Wentz's character, intelligence, and mentality, some people will only see what they want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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