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domcucch1994

Pull the trigger on Kevin White!

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Thanks Ballpeen! I don't have the time to study the draft prospects like I used to. I just want to see some bigger targets on board to make it easier on whoever QBs this team in 2015. When we had Joe Jurevicius, Braylon Edwards and Kellen WInslow in 2007 - we not only won 10 games but Derek Anderson had the best year of his career.

 

This draft we can add the best TE (Williams), a WR like Perriman, and either an offensive lineman or a dlineman/pass rusher by the time we've completed our 3rd pick.

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The Falcons finished with a worse record than the Browns for the past two years even though they traded up for an elite playmaker.

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Let's not forget that, as we speak, even if we have an all-world WR getting open downfield

we don't have a QB on the roster who has demonstrated that he can consistently get the ball

to said WR. Does anyone else remember BH missing wide open guys and constantly underthrowing

receivers who were open deep?

Just to add to your great Quote, A QB that can't see over a OL never see's him open. A QB on the move cannot Throw it that far down field. Lastly, a Backup on the OL allows you 3-4 seconds to get rid of the ball. Good Luck with That. Hope We or He Finds a Good QB. S. Watkins with a Real QB, we would be bitchin...

 

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Here's another case of someone seeing he can go higher than where I had us taking him so stay tuned...:

 

NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock believes Perriman is "special" and could be emerging as a first-round pick.

The buzz slowed somewhat during the NFL Scouting Combine this past weekend because a hamstring injury kept Perriman from participating. He will have another chance to check off that box, especially with his 40-yard dash time, at UCF's pro day.

 

 

I think Mayock is legit so I'll take his word for it.

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Thanks Ballpeen! I don't have the time to study the draft prospects like I used to. I just want to see some bigger targets on board to make it easier on whoever QBs this team in 2015. When we had Joe Jurevicius, Braylon Edwards and Kellen WInslow in 2007 - we not only won 10 games but Derek Anderson had the best year of his career.



This draft we can add the best TE (Williams), a WR like Perriman, and either an offensive lineman or a dlineman/pass rusher by the time we've completed our 3rd pick. FLUGELS


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FLUGS !!!!! Which offensive lineman would you go after? (I remember you are an oline guy !)


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Lockett (his 4.40 was 3rd best of wr's) in rd 2 or 3 or gtfo. Browns have made it clear they are filling D needs first and foremost.

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Thanks Ballpeen! I don't have the time to study the draft prospects like I used to. I just want to see some bigger targets on board to make it easier on whoever QBs this team in 2015. When we had Joe Jurevicius, Braylon Edwards and Kellen WInslow in 2007 - we not only won 10 games but Derek Anderson had the best year of his career.

This draft we can add the best TE (Williams), a WR like Perriman, and either an offensive lineman or a dlineman/pass rusher by the time we've completed our 3rd pick. FLUGELS

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FLUGS !!!!! Which offensive lineman would you go after? (I remember you are an oline guy !)

 

The issue using the 07 team as an example is their flash in the pan success. The run game was complimentary to the passing attack which cost us late in the year and a possible playoff birth. The pass rush was a joke outside of Rodgers dominating the interior and the secondary was a sieve.

 

I prefer my teams to be strong in the trenches and on defense. It's a recipe for longer lasting success.

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The Falcons finished with a worse record than the Browns for the past two years even though they traded up for an elite playmaker.

Good point. Even having Rod Smith, Julio Jones and Matt Ryan (and Steven Jackson) didn't help that team with a crappy defense do as well as the Browns.

 

So, if we went with two defenders in the first round, it would not hurt my feelings.

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FLUGS !!!!! Which offensive lineman would you go after? (I remember you are an oline guy !)

 

 

 

 

Hey Cal! Glad to see you in the mix here. When Mack was healthy I loved what I saw from our line, Crow's average was up over 5 yards a carry while Tate was at something like 4.4 (as temporary as that was). Bitonio was a great addition. Not only that; but Hoyer looked like he was stepping into his throws all the way up until the Jax Game. During that span, I saw the same Brina Hoyer that pleasantly surprised me in 2013.

 

To answer your question - I saw 1 mock draft that had us taking Miami's OT Ereck Flowers in round 1. That didn't look too bad to me. Other OTs I like are: La el Collins LSU, TJ Clemmings Pitt, Cedric Ogbuehi Texas A&M. Some people think Bowie could challenge Schwartz for the starting RT spot. If so, maybe we can snag a Guard later in the draft.

 

I've been kind of torn between oline and dline with one of our first round picks. Our 5 technique technique lacked depth and it was very weak at times. Oregon's DE Arik Armstead would really improve that quite a bit IMO. This would allow us to kick our best 2 gap defender - John Hughes inside to NT..

 

I'm hoping we land TE Maxx Williams with our other first round pick.

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The issue using the 07 team as an example is their flash in the pan success. The run game was complimentary to the passing attack which cost us late in the year and a possible playoff birth. The pass rush was a joke outside of Rodgers dominating the interior and the secondary was a sieve.

 

 

 

 

Understanding our QB situation at the start of 2007 along with the train wreck we witnessed in week 1 - finishing with 10 wins was a lot better than you're making it sound. Everyone was well aware of our deficiencies on defense - that's why we appreciated the fact we outscored 10 out of 16 opponents.

 

Since we're both in a topic about the WR position - why don't we get back to discussing how we can make this an easier team to QB via help on the perimeter.

 

2007 became the easiest season we've seen to play QB here this side of 1999. Consequently,a career backup caliber QB Derek Anderson threw 29 TD passes with 20 of those going to the WR position. That's what size in the red zone can do for a QB that isn't consistently accurate. In addition to the TD volume, Edwards and Winslow had 56 first downs apiece while Joe Jurevicius added another 34. In comparison, our WR Corps only caught 8 TD passes in 2014.

 

The QB situation heading into 2015 doesn't look much different than our 2007 situation. That being the case, we'll have opportunities to draft a TE like Maxx Williams in round 1 and a WR like Perriman in round 2 (I have a feeling he'll be on our doorstep despite Kiper and Mayock pushing him up into round 1). While I like Hawkins and Gabriel, they're not always the easiest guys to see. Hopefully resign Austin Miles...

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Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.

 

Thanks DieHard! Good to see you man! There should be a lot of good stuff to talk about the next 2 months.

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Understanding our QB situation at the start of 2007 along with the train wreck we witnessed in week 1 - finishing with 10 wins was a lot better than you're making it sound. Everyone was well aware of our deficiencies on defense - that's why we appreciated the fact we outscored 10 out of 16 opponents.

 

Since we're both in a topic about the WR position - why don't we get back to discussing how we can make this an easier team to QB via help on the perimeter.

 

2007 became the easiest season we've seen to play QB here this side of 1999.

2007 was the easiest to QB because of the sharp improvement on the Oline. Joe Thomas and Steinbach were the absolute difference between those two years. If you put Anderson on the 06 team, the results would have practically been the same.

 

Lord knows I'm not opposed to getting help for this offense, but I can't picture investing a near top 10 pick for a WR like Parker.

 

Considering this draft is deepest at the positions the Browns need the most, Dline, WR, OLB & TE - coupled with Pettine saying it starts with defense (and Farmers widely known belief on 1st round receivers ). It's highly unlikely you see investments that early in the draft. There is plenty of help to be had round 2 and beyond.

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2007 was the easiest to QB because of the sharp improvement on the Oline. Joe Thomas and Steinbach were the absolute difference between those two years. If you put Anderson on the 06 team, the results would have practically been the same.

 

Lord knows I'm not opposed to getting help for this offense, but I can't picture investing a near top 10 pick for a WR like Parker.

 

Considering this draft is deepest at the positions the Browns need the most, Dline, WR, OLB & TE - coupled with Pettine saying it starts with defense (and Farmers widely known belief on 1st round receivers ). It's highly unlikely you see investments that early in the draft. There is plenty of help to be had round 2 and beyond.

 

Is it really widely known? He's been a GM for one draft. He didn't take a WR. They asked him why and he responded by saying he'd rather get a guy who's more "involved". That's it.

 

It's not like he's a seasoned vet who hasn't taken a WR in the first round in 20 years.

 

For all we know, he may have just fucked up and then tried to justify his reasoning after the fact. He could take two WRs in the first round this year.

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Is it really widely known? He's been a GM for one draft. He didn't take a WR. They asked him why and he responded by saying he'd rather get a guy who's more "involved". That's it.

 

It's not like he's a seasoned vet who hasn't taken a WR in the first round in 20 years.

 

For all we know, he may have just fucked up and then tried to justify his reasoning after the fact. He could take two WRs in the first round this year.

 

I guess I"ll concede you that. However if he had 'fucked up' I'm pretty sure the reasoning would have been a bit less informative. Something along the lines of "such and such was our highest rated player on the board and that's what we stuck with. Flat out admitting your philosophy is that WR's only have a small handful of times to change the game compared to a player always involved is pretty telling.

 

Of course, what is more telling was the obvious pass on taking Watkins for a CB.

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2007 was the easiest to QB because of the sharp improvement on the Oline. Joe Thomas and Steinbach were the absolute difference between those two years. If you put Anderson on the 06 team, the results would have practically been the same.

 

Lord knows I'm not opposed to getting help for this offense, but I can't picture investing a near top 10 pick for a WR like Parker.

 

Considering this draft is deepest at the positions the Browns need the most, Dline, WR, OLB & TE - coupled with Pettine saying it starts with defense (and Farmers widely known belief on 1st round receivers ). It's highly unlikely you see investments that early in the draft. There is plenty of help to be had round 2 and beyond.

 

 

We had Thomas and Steinbach in 2008, 2009, and 2010 too; but our WR Corps never duplicated 20 TD receptions while our QB never threw 29 TD passes again like that 2007 season. That's why we went back to our usual 5 wins a year and played musical coaches. No balance coming from our passing game allowing defenses to load the box with 8-9 defenders. We still ran the ball well because we finished 8th out 32 teams at rushing the ball in 2009 while Hillis had his Madden cover boy season in 2010.

 

Running the ball wasn't a problem at all when Mack was in the lineup in 2014 while Bitonio is the closest thing we've seen to Steinbach at LG. Mack has actually made more Pro Bowls than Hank Fraley; so we're very similar upfront. We had one of the best yards per carry averages throughout the games Mack started in 2014. Where are we with the passing game though? Like I said, 12 TD passes from the QB and 8 TD receptions from the WR Corps in 2014. You can pretend that's fine all you want; but that doesn't gibe us a balanced attack. That's why I suggested Perriman in round 2.

 

Farmer isn't going to announce what he plans on drafting and he's told people this. That's why a ton of people were shocked we drafted a corner first in 2014. 8 TDs from your WR Corps isn't exactly QB friendly in a passing era. You're too busy trying to win an argument to understand my message about 2007. It was the 1 time our perimeter made a Pro Bowl alternate out of a career backup QB.

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We had Thomas and Steinbach in 2008, 2009, and 2010 too; but our WR Corps never duplicated 20 TD receptions while our QB never threw 29 TD passes again like that 2007 season.

 

Farmer isn't going to announce what he plans on drafting and he's told people this. That's why a ton of people were shocked we drafted a corner first in 2014. 8 TDs from your WR Corps isn't exactly QB friendly in a passing era. You're too busy trying to win an argument to understand my message about 2007. It was the 1 time our perimeter made a Pro Bowl alternate out of a career backup QB.

If anything, I would say this illustrates the point of the offense being a complimentary ecosystem of sorts. Because that average, backup QB and those very same skill position players couldn't come close to duplicating their 2007 season the following year.

 

Sometimes a blind squirrel finds a nut.

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In my opinion we should go offense first but Kevin White is not who I would take.

 

well the sweat off brady quinn's jock is still available so......

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We had Thomas and Steinbach in 2008, 2009, and 2010 too; but our WR Corps never duplicated 20 TD receptions while our QB never threw 29 TD passes again like that 2007 season. That's why we went back to our usual 5 wins a year and played musical coaches. No balance coming from our passing game allowing defenses to load the box with 8-9 defenders. We still ran the ball well because we finished 8th out 32 teams at rushing the ball in 2009 while Hillis had his Madden cover boy season in 2010.

 

Running the ball wasn't a problem at all when Mack was in the lineup in 2014 while Bitonio is the closest thing we've seen to Steinbach at LG. Mack has actually made more Pro Bowls than Hank Fraley; so we're very similar upfront. We had one of the best yards per carry averages throughout the games Mack started in 2014. Where are we with the passing game though? Like I said, 12 TD passes from the QB and 8 TD receptions from the WR Corps in 2014. You can pretend that's fine all you want; but that doesn't gibe us a balanced attack. That's why I suggested Perriman in round 2.

 

Farmer isn't going to announce what he plans on drafting and he's told people this. That's why a ton of people were shocked we drafted a corner first in 2014. 8 TDs from your WR Corps isn't exactly QB friendly in a passing era. You're too busy trying to win an argument to understand my message about 2007. It was the 1 time our perimeter made a Pro Bowl alternate out of a career backup QB.

So they loaded the box, but we ran well anyway sometime in the late 2000's?

 

In more recent history, Hoyer threw 12 TDs in 14-1/2 games, but 7 in 6 games prior to Mack's injury when we ran effectively. Pass friendly league or not, we were designed to run first... and often... and pass off of that success. Once Mack went down and the running attack fizzled, it was no surprise that the pass attack followed.

 

IMO, it adds up to an argument for O-line depth, not an enhanced WR corps.

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Hey Cal! Glad to see you in the mix here. When Mack was healthy I loved what I saw from our line, Crow's average was up over 5 yards a carry while Tate was at something like 4.4 (as temporary as that was). Bitonio was a great addition. Not only that; but Hoyer looked like he was stepping into his throws all the way up until the Jax Game. During that span, I saw the same Brina Hoyer that pleasantly surprised me in 2013.

 

To answer your question - I saw 1 mock draft that had us taking Miami's OT Ereck Flowers in round 1. That didn't look too bad to me. Other OTs I like are: La el Collins LSU, TJ Clemmings Pitt, Cedric Ogbuehi Texas A&M. Some people think Bowie could challenge Schwartz for the starting RT spot. If so, maybe we can snag a Guard later in the draft.

 

I've been kind of torn between oline and dline with one of our first round picks. Our 5 technique technique lacked depth and it was very weak at times. Oregon's DE Arik Armstead would really improve that quite a bit IMO. This would allow us to kick our best 2 gap defender - John Hughes inside to NT..

 

I'm hoping we land TE Maxx Williams with our other first round pick.

Flugel, you are going to get on Ghoolie's shit list, talking about taking O linemen in the first round.

How you gonna handle that?

:wacko:

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I guess I"ll concede you that. However if he had 'fucked up' I'm pretty sure the reasoning would have been a bit less informative. Something along the lines of "such and such was our highest rated player on the board and that's what we stuck with. Flat out admitting your philosophy is that WR's only have a small handful of times to change the game compared to a player always involved is pretty telling.

 

Of course, what is more telling was the obvious pass on taking Watkins for a CB.

That is true. Although I would have passed on Watkins as well for nearly any trade. I like him but the greater value in that position, to me, is being able to secure more players. I wasn't sold on any of the top players except for Bortles.

 

Now, however, is different. I think I'm more comfortable with some of the players mocked around the 12 position this year than I was some players mocked around 4-6 last year. We'll likely be at a point where need and overall BPA align a few times. I wouldn't "waste" that on trading up for one WR.

 

If White somehow falls to 12, I'm all for it. If not, I'd like Farmer to stick to last year's guns about taking a WR early.

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I like Flugel's point on the effectiveness of height in the red zone, illustrated by the 2007 Browns with Edwards, Jurevicius, and WinslowJR targeted by tall Derek Anderson. Very very good point.

 

tiamat... your take as if that Red Zone effectiveness were really due to Joe Thomas and Steinbeck directly attempted to refute the point. We'd have been better served had you added that info along side Flugel's excellent point. Of course both sets (the tall receivers & great O-line) did wonders for the great RZ efficiency in 2007.

 

tiamat, I loved the way you broke it down with patience to the guy that started this thread. You're raising our thought and our 'game' as a fan-base. Thank you.

 

I'll post later today in some thread on Browns Board my map for the next 2 offseasons for building this team to the perennial playoff winner we're living to see. (it's something we're living for.... a reason.)

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Since 2000, 23 WRs have been drafted top 10, 9 played in the postseason for the team that drafted them (39%)

(Burress, A.Johnson, Fitzgerald, R.Williams, C.Johnson, Ginn, Crabtree, Green, Jones)

 

Since 2000, 22 QBs have been drated top 10, 13 of them led the team that drafted them to the postseason (59%)

(Vick, Leftwich, Palmer, Rivers, Manning, Smith, Young, Ryan, Stafford, Sanchez, Newton, Luck, Griffin)

 

The point...?

 

If you're going to trade into the top 10... do it for a QB... not a receiver

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I like Flugel's point on the effectiveness of height in the red zone, illustrated by the 2007 Browns with Edwards, Jurevicius, and WinslowJR targeted by tall Derek Anderson. Very very good point.

 

tiamat... your take as if that Red Zone effectiveness were really due to Joe Thomas and Steinbeck directly attempted to refute the point. We'd have been better served had you added that info along side Flugel's excellent point. Of course both sets (the tall receivers & great O-line) did wonders for the great RZ efficiency in 2007.

 

RedZone effectiveness is directly related to having JT and Steinbach. Without the stellar Oline transition, the 2007 squad would have had very few opportunities to have made it to the redzone.

Also, I'm going to go back and look at the number of times we had passing TD's in the redzone that year. Off the top of my head, I remember 2 to Braylon, two to JJ and the other to Kellen.

 

tiamat, I loved the way you broke it down with patience to the guy that started this thread. You're raising our thought and our 'game' as a fan-base. Thank you.

 

That is high praise I don't really feel worthy of, but I do appreciate the compliment.

 

I'll post later today in some thread on Browns Board my map for the next 2 offseasons for building this team to the perennial playoff winner we're living to see. (it's something we're living for.... a reason.)

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So they loaded the box, but we ran well anyway sometime in the late 2000's?

 

In more recent history, Hoyer threw 12 TDs in 14-1/2 games, but 7 in 6 games prior to Mack's injury when we ran effectively. Pass friendly league or not, we were designed to run first... and often... and pass off of that success. Once Mack went down and the running attack fizzled, it was no surprise that the pass attack followed.

 

IMO, it adds up to an argument for O-line depth, not an enhanced WR corps.

 

Appreciate your feedback. Unfortunately, the bottom line said Cleveland only won 5 games in 2009 and 5 games in 2010. That means we didn't overcome 8-9 men in the box enough to compensate for a passing game ranking with anchors.

 

If you read the flow of discussion, I've already said I LOVED the addition of Bitonio and the loss of Mack impacted yards per carry averages as well as Hoyer's ability to step into throws. I'm actually excited about our line and running game when we get everyone back healthy. I'm also pumped we added OT Michael Bowie to compete for a starting job. I like what we're doing with our oline and running game, Why should any of this mean Perriman was a bad idea for round 2? That's where I joined this discussion.

 

The reality is we need to sign a veteran QB. Do you really think a WR Corps that only combined for 8 TD receptions in 2014 attracts anyone decent/durable? There's no size on our perimeter to give us any red zone advantages/mismatches to exploit. Adding one stud to fit that need won't kill us or our draft volume.

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I wasn't following the discussion... and I'm afraid I'm still not as I have no clue what the late 2000's have to do with anything.

 

I think playing behind a solid O-line and having a running will attract the kind of veteran QB we need, a game manager with strong play-action skills.

 

I have no opinion on Perriman, and TBH I thought the discussion was about the ILB when I first saw the name, but he doesn't strike me as being a "name WR" that's going to draw a QB to the Browns.

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If anything, I would say this illustrates the point of the offense being a complimentary ecosystem of sorts. Because that average, backup QB and those very same skill position players couldn't come close to duplicating their 2007 season the following year.

 

 

 

I thought you already clarified the reason we could throw well in 2007 had less to do with the WR Corps than Steinbach and Thomas. If that's the case, all we needed to do was run left the next 3 years; and our passing game easily continues its pace of 29 TD passes a year regardless of who's playing QB and replacing Joe Jurevicius. Unfortunately, here's our records after 2007 reflecting otherwise:

2008: 4-12 (Steinbach & Thomas played)

2009: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)

2010: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)

2011: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played)

2012: 5-11 (Thomas & Mack played)

2013: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played) - could only run off tackle and 3 different QBs couldn't finish starts.

 

Sometimes it doesn't matter how good 2 of our offensive lineman are when we drafted guys like Greg Little with the crack-pipe logic we could teach an Edward Scissorhands how to catch a football at the PRO level. We might have been a little more patient with that if we didn't already experienced a WR Corps of Brian Robiskie, MoMass, and Chansi Stuckey. On top of that, we saw a ton of passes batted down at the line of scrimmage in 2011 and 2012. These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.

 

Left Tackles in the NFL are paid top $ to protect the passer. I can't imagine Joe Thomas would be all pumped up to hear we're blowing off the WR position again just so we can put the same bunch of flyweights/slot receiver types back out there again. If we take away Austin's 2 TD receptions, our lightweights only combined for 6 TD receptions over 16 games. There's a reason why a lot of teams only want to play 1 slot receiver at a time. What kind of veteran FA QB is our WR Corps supposed to attract? One that's either always been injured or Mark Sanchez.

 

In the first 2 rounds, we're going to have TE Maxx Williams on our doorstep as well as a play maker at WR that can prevent a lot of defenses from loading the box on our running game. We can also snag a defensive lineman like Arik Armstead to play DE. My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early. Rounds 3-7 still give us plenty of opportunity to go defense and oline later. With our volume of draft picks plus about 50 million $ of cap space plus an ideal leader like Pettine - there's plenty of reasons to get excited about our future.

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