Derek Anderson versus Matt Cassel

[Zombo]

I would think a shrewd GM would think the waters are kinda frothy around Matt Cassel right now ... I think DA's value increases as the off-season goes on. Personally, I hope we keep him.

 

Derek Anderson: First year as a Starter

2007, Age: 24

Team's record previous season: 4-12

Record with Anderson starting: 10-5

 

298-527, 3,787 yds, 56.5%, 7.2 y/a, 29 TD, 19 Int, passer rating 82.5, 14 sacks, 1 fumble

 

Matt Cassel: First year as a Starter

2008, Age: 26

Team's record previous season: 16-0

Record with cassel starting: 10-5

 

327-516, 3,693 yds, 63.4%, 7.2 y/a, 21 TD, 11 Int, passer rating 89.4, 47 sacks, 2 fumbles

 

Pretty equal on yards, Cassel was more efficient, Anderson had more turnovers, but also had more TDs and was sacked far less.

 

The 2008 Browns season was a mess that cannot be pinned on Anderson more than just a small partial bit.

 

If I'm a GM, I am intrigued with the big arm, the youth, the athleticism, and the 2007 production. And from all acounts, he is well-respected in the locker room.

 

Zombo

--Wait ... why do we hate this guy again?

[NewEraDawg]

--Wait ... why do we hate this guy again?[/b][/color]

 

 

Because we have the golden boy in the wings ?????

[WPB Dawg Fan]

What's really funny is that you are pimping DA with the EXACT stats that I have been using to tell everyone that Cassel is over-rated.

 

Cassel is last year's DA. He is a one year wonder. But worse...he had a great surrounding team. He has proven absolutely NOTHING.

 

He was 3-4 vs teams with a winning record (using a team that went 16-0 the year before).

 

He also posted the following vs good defenses:

 

Miami (#9 vs Pass): 68.1 & 114.0

Pittsburgh (#2): 39.4

 

That's right, he only faced 2 teams with a top 10 passing defense...and bombed in 2 out of the 3 games. He also had the luxery of facing the following:

 

KC: #25

NYJ: #22 (x2)

SD: #24

St.L: #27

Denver: #31

Seattle: #29

Arizona: #30

 

That's right, Matt Cassel faced teams in the bottom 10 of the league vs the pass on 8 occasions.

 

I'm no expert...but I would say that facing the scrubs of the league vs the pass...on a team that went 16-0 the year before...may tend to hand you some pretty good stats.

 

Personally, I would take DA over Cassel....but I don't think either one is a 'proven' QB.

 

[Zombo]

When a 6th round pick gets hot mostly against bad defenses, you keep one foot on the floor. When that guy then goes about 17 games with a passer rating below 70, you feel absolutely validated in your doubts. In the end, it certainly looks like Derek Anderson is more Scott Mitchell than Tom Brady.

 

Zombo, I understand wanting to go back in time to feel excited about DA again... but too much has happened in between.

 

I'm not buying the bad defenses thing. He played virtually the same schedule that Palmer, Roethlisberger and Boller did that year.

 

When Anderson was successful it was all great "cockpit".

 

When he failed it was all poor "passer rating"

 

What was the passer rating of the other QBs who started in the same cockpit last year?

 

Zombo

[Guest AdaM]

I'm not buying the bad defenses thing. He played virtually the same schedule that Palmer, Roethlisberger and Boller did that year.

 

When Anderson was successful it was all great "cockpit".

 

When he failed it was all poor "passer rating"

 

What was the passer rating of the other QBs who started in the same cockpit last year?

 

Zombo

 

 

Zombo, Anderson and athleticism do not belong in the same thread.

 

But he's a good kid and performed great when he had no pressure. I just don't think he can mentally handle being a starting QB in the NFL.

[OconRecon]

--Wait ... why do we hate this guy again?[/b][/color]

 

Although it wasn't all his fault, and forgive me if I sound like a broken record here Z, he was the worst offensive ranked starting player on the Browns last season. The most important offensive position was the worst ranked. Also last among NFL QB's. That's why.

 

However, back to the point of your thread, I hope GM's use your math, and I think they will if they like him, to look at the glass half full.

 

DA is a good guy, a team player, and has a cannon arm. Someone will like him. Also, compared to a guy like Garcia, he's young and doesn't have personality baggage.

[Zombo]

What's really funny is that you are pimping DA with the EXACT stats that I have been using to tell everyone that Cassel is over-rated.

 

 

Well, I don't know if I'm "pimping" DA as much as I think he's a valuable asset.

 

I think Cassel is too.

 

I think right now the average fan's perception of DA is low as compared to what an NFL GM would think of him, and the average fan's perception of Cassel is high as compared to what an NFL GM would think of him.

 

Your perception of both Cassel and Anderson, is low ... to me.

 

Don't forget ... I'm a Quinn fan.

 

I don't think you have to be one or the other.

 

I don't think it's been the QBing that has held us back the past couple of years. We have two nice, young QBs.

 

How bout we build a defense? And if one of these QBs can bring defensive draftpicks or a running back ... great. But I wouldn't trade DA for third ... I think he is more valuable than that.

 

Zombo

--but that's just me.

[Zombo]

Zombo, Anderson and athleticism do not belong in the same thread.

 

But he's a good kid and performed great when he had no pressure. I just don't think he can mentally handle being a starting QB in the NFL.

 

Well ... we disagree ... I think Anderson is a very good athlete.

 

"Athlete" does not = foot speed

 

He is mobile and agile in the pocket for a big guy, has a rifle arm and is good at eluding a pass rush.

 

And if he is not "mentally" able to handle being a starting QB ... then everyone else who has started for us in the last ten years has been a complete Retard.

 

Zombo

[damajuki]

How bout we build a defense? And if one of these QBs can bring defensive draftpicks or a running back ... great. But I wouldn't trade DA for third ... I think he is more valuable than that.

 

Zombo

--but that's just me.

His value will be determined solely by the desperation of a team for a QB -- ANY QB -- that is better than what they have.

 

Luckily for us, there are many teams that WILL get desperate soon. When that happens, we'll find out how good ManKok is at playing teams off each other.

 

I tend to agree with you that he is more valuable than a 3rd but we can't wait forever to find out just how valuable. I'd shoot for the Lions' 2nd and go down from there.

[WPB Dawg Fan]

Zombo...funny thing is I am the one people are saying OVER value DA.

 

I really think we get a high 2nd for him (Detroit's #33) or maybe a combination of a low 2nd and 4th (NYJ/Minnesota/TB). I wouldn't even be that surprised if we got a low 1st.

 

People don't realize the value of a QB...especially one with experience and some success.

 

DA is VERY valuable. Especially if we pay his $5m bonus.

 

So, as for UNDER valuing them...no. I just think Cassel actually has LESS of a case than DA does.

[damajuki]

Well ... we disagree ... I think Anderson is a very good athlete.

 

"Athlete" does not = foot speed

 

He is mobile and agile in the pocket for a big guy, has a rifle arm and is good at eluding a pass rush.

 

And if he is not "mentally" able to handle being a starting QB ... then everyone else who has started for us in the last ten years has been a complete Retard.

 

Zombo

Well, everyone who has started for us the last ten years HAS been a complete Retard at QB and when it wasn't the QB it was the HC so even Garcia got tainted while he was here.

 

Yes, Anderson has all the physical tools but as he's shown AT EVERY LEVEL OF HIS CAREER, he does NOT possess the QB "it" factor.

 

If he had "it" he would not have looked so putrid in so many games.

 

The fact of the matter is that Anderson has rare size and ability to throw a football and that's ALL he's EVER shown.

 

Bottom line: he's the eternal prospect and that's all he'll ever be.

 

[Guest AdaM]

Well ... we disagree ... I think Anderson is a very good athlete.

 

"Athlete" does not = foot speed

 

He is mobile and agile in the pocket for a big guy, has a rifle arm and is good at eluding a pass rush.

 

And if he is not "mentally" able to handle being a starting QB ... then everyone else who has started for us in the last ten years has been a complete Retard.

 

Zombo

 

 

Zombo how in the world do you explain this:

 

Anderson started 07 hot because Frye just got traded. Anderson had no pressure, and under those circumstances he performed well. By mid season the league had caught up with him and took away the deep ball. He is NOT GOOD ENOUGH to compensate for that because that is his only true weapon. He can not dink and dunk, and that sunk him. Not to mention he is horrible at reading defenses and loves to throw into double/triple coverage. Once the word was out on him he had what, TWO good games through the stretch of 2nd half of 07 through the benching in 09? That tells me that he does not have the mental fortitude to handle the pressure that comes with the QB position.

 

 

[Zombo]

Zombo how in the world do you explain this:

 

Anderson started 07 hot because Frye just got traded. Anderson had no pressure, and under those circumstances he performed well. By mid season the league had caught up with him and took away the deep ball. He is NOT GOOD ENOUGH to compensate for that because that is his only true weapon. He can not dink and dunk, and that sunk him. Not to mention he is horrible at reading defenses and loves to throw into double/triple coverage. Once the word was out on him he had what, TWO good games through the stretch of 2nd half of 07 through the benching in 09? That tells me that he does not have the mental fortitude to handle the pressure that comes with the QB position.

 

Adam, your post deserves a long answer, but I can only give you a short one right now:

 

I think your perceptions of Anderson, and that of a lot of Browns fans, is unduly harsh.

 

This team was real bad before Anderson, and real bad after Anderson.

 

It's easy now to say that Savage and Crennel are complete buffoons for starting DA and sticking with him so long ... but he played well enough, and won enough football games to deserve it.

 

I don't think it was so much a case of defenses taking away the long ball from a one-trick pony, as I do the surrounding cast being exposed: Edwards, Lewis, the right side of the line ... how bout the fact he had virtually no #2 receiver this year ... and how good did our defense perform in those games we lost in 07 and 08?

 

If Quinn blew out his knee tomorrow, I would be bummed, but I think the team would be OK with Anderson. I'd still be worried about running back, receiver, right tackle, right guard, defensive line, linebacker and defensive backfield more than I was worried about QB.

 

Zombo

[Greythan]

I don't think we can win a championship with DA. We've beaten his limitations to death on these boards. Also, to call the guy "athletic" and then talk about his footwork in the pocket is laughable. The second there's a need for him to move in the pocket, bad things usually happen. He's a total liability when forced to use his feet at all. We've seen it over and over.

 

So, let's see if Quinn does have what it takes to pilot a team to a championship. Pretty simple.

 

Finally, Cassel is coming off a decent year subbing for the best QB in the NFL. If he were to go the next year as a starter and play like DA did over his last 16 games, you wouldn't even be posting.

 

Lastly, I'm not convinced Cassel can win a championship either. He's a backup at this point. What's DA again?

[Guest AdaM]

Adam, your post deserves a long answer, but I can only give you a short one right now:

 

I think your perceptions of Anderson, and that of a lot of Browns fans, is unduly harsh.

 

This team was real bad before Anderson, and real bad after Anderson.

 

It's easy now to say that Savage and Crennel are complete buffoons for starting DA and sticking with him so long ... but he played well enough, and won enough football games to deserve it.

 

I don't think it was so much a case of defenses taking away the long ball from a one-trick pony, as I do the surrounding cast being exposed: Edwards, Lewis, the right side of the line ... how bout the fact he had virtually no #2 receiver this year ... and how good did our defense perform in those games we lost in 07 and 08?

 

If Quinn blew out his knee tomorrow, I would be bummed, but I think the team would be OK with Anderson. I'd still be worried about running back, receiver, right tackle, right guard, defensive line, linebacker and defensive backfield more than I was worried about QB.

 

Zombo

 

The team was also real bad DURING Anderson (atleast after the first half of 07 through the benching of 08).

 

But I think you're right about the Quinn-hurt-scenario. I wouldn't mind having him behind Quinn "just in case", mainly because I think Mangini could get much more out of him than Crennel could. But I don't think DA is going to play in Cleveland again. And I think the team needs the potential draft picks he can net us more than the team needs him as a backup.

[Gips]

I dont dislike DA at all but the qb controversy has got to end... either DA or BQ must go i will leave that up to kokinis he is very familiar with DA either way unlike lums im still a fan and support whomever they chose to lead the team...

 

Personally i think DA has an edge on cassel and i also think as FA gets closer DAs value is going to increase to the point that a trade will be unavoidable..

 

Whichever guy starts for the browns this year is going to have it ruff including tom brady or manning if they were here..unless we thicken the WR position..

[OconRecon]

I think RAC and Phil were justified sticking with DA through the end of '07 (even though he was stumbling), but they should have seen the writing on the wall as DA's last 6 games were not good.

 

With a first round draft pick in camp, he should not have been given the keys to the bus. I can say with the information we had at the time, I was pushing to take Dallas up on that 1 & 3 offer, even if they were going to trade it to the Ravens. So, without hindsight, many here thought sticking with DA for '08 was not a good idea.

 

I still don't mind the math in the first post of this thread though as it is accurate and hopefully some team takes the bait.

[sisky fringo]

When a 6th round pick gets hot mostly against bad defenses, you keep one foot on the floor. When that guy then goes about 17 games with a passer rating below 70, you feel absolutely validated in your doubts. In the end, it certainly looks like Derek Anderson is more Scott Mitchell than Tom Brady.

 

Zombo, I understand wanting to go back in time to feel excited about DA again... but too much has happened in between.

this coming from a guy who said DA would be long gone by now......

 

it's the final countdown......

[sisky fringo]

Zombo, Anderson and athleticism do not belong in the same thread.

 

But he's a good kid and performed great when he had no pressure. I just don't think he can mentally handle being a starting QB in the NFL.

playing vs his idol Peyton in his 2nd year he certainly showed mad NFL poise. people aren't that tangible imho.

 

[sisky fringo]

Yes, Anderson has all the physical tools but as he's shown AT EVERY LEVEL OF HIS CAREER, he does NOT possess the QB "it" factor.

 

If he had "it" he would not have looked so putrid in so many games.

 

The fact of the matter is that Anderson has rare size and ability to throw a football and that's ALL he's EVER shown.

 

Bottom line: he's the eternal prospect and that's all he'll ever be.

not even that time he waxed Quinn in the Insight Bowl?

no disrespect damajuki but people aren't MVP by default and 38 points don't score themselves.

 

it could be argued the game vs Manning & the Colts probably ranked pretty high in DA's mind among the "levels" of his career and that was one of his best games.

 

re:"Bottom line: he's the eternal prospect and that's all he'll ever be."

 

care to make a wager damajuki? it will be a pride/embarrassment bet (loser streaks the north lot??) not $$.

[damajuki]

not even that time he waxed Quinn in the Insight Bowl?

no disrespect damajuki but people aren't MVP by default and 38 points don't score themselves.

 

it could be argued the game vs Manning & the Colts probably ranked pretty high in DA's mind among the "levels" of his career and that was one of his best games.

 

re:"Bottom line: he's the eternal prospect and that's all he'll ever be."

 

care to make a wager damajuki? it will be a pride/embarrassment bet (loser streaks the north lot??) not $$.

Sure, Sisky. I'll cyber-bet with you. What should the terms be? How about this:

 

On the day he retires from football (or teams finally give up on signing him, whichever comes first), DA will be a sub-90 career passer and will finish .500 or below as a starter.

 

How about that?

 

I don't know what you are referring to with the 38 points and MVP thing. Is that part of the bowl comment?

 

I'm not even going to address the DA-BQ comment because 1. It was a long time ago, 2. BQ doesn't play defense, 3. who cares? and 4. it's been beaten to death.

[sisky fringo]

Sure, Sisky. I'll cyber-bet with you. What should the terms be? How about this:

 

On the day he retires from football (or teams finally give up on signing him, whichever comes first), DA will be a sub-90 career passer and will finish .500 or below as a starter.

 

How about that?

 

I don't know what you are referring to with the 38 points and MVP thing. Is that part of the bowl comment?

 

I'm not even going to address the DA-BQ comment because 1. It was a long time ago, 2. BQ doesn't play defense, 3. who cares? and 4. it's been beaten to death.

thanks for the reply damajuki.

 

i took your post as he's never done anything and never will, that's what brought the Bowl comment (and paraphrasing DA was just for fun). it was not intended as a BQ vs DA remark, as per usual 'round these parts.

 

that game i referenced was at the apex of his college career, it should have some weight regarding having an "it" factor, even if it was at the college level. he still led his team whether it was yesterday or a decade ago and ND's defense was good enough to get them to the Bowl (i know, i know).

 

sorry if the rest of the board has been beaten it death, i've had little to no part in that.

 

i should have been more clear: it wasn't meant as a comparison of the two. 1,2,3, & 4 seem to be coming from that perspective. besides, #2 is a consolation for Brady, not recognition of Derek accomplishments. again, this isn't about Quinn but about my belief in DA having the "it" factor you seem to think he doesn't have.

 

sub-90 on his career and .500 or below as a starter has too many intangibles Derek can't control.

 

if DA ever becomes a perennial #1 QB of any team regardless of stats and performance i'd say that's a win for me. i doubt an NFL team would make him the face of the franchise w/out possessing the 'it' factor. i'd say it's safe to say he has it if he can accomplish that moving forward.

 

whad'ya think? too gray and broad?

 

non-cash doesn't equal cyber-bet--i actually wanna win something. something funny like loser streaks the Brown's parking lot of winner's choice, loser picks date they can attend? witnesses verify? shirtless w/ orange and brown chest paint for 2 quarters in December.....(doing full games is for the mentally deranged)....

 

something somewhat light...but still something to endure.

[Guest Dacaddyman]

Because we have the golden boy in the wings ?????

What is this "golden Boy"? Has shown me he is just an average QB so far. It's too early to tell I guess When and if he wins as many SB's as Brady then we can call him the golden boy.

[Guest Masters]

playing vs his idol Peyton in his 2nd year he certainly showed mad NFL poise. people aren't that tangible imho.

 

DA was riding pine his second year in the NFL. So I can only guess you are talking about his game against IND this year, his 4th in the NFL (yet still as inaccurate as he was in HS), where he posted a 71QBR, going 16 for 26, 110 yards, with 3 sacks, no TDs, and no INTs. Yup, he played like a champ. That is a Charlie Frye game. Heck, Frye had games better than that against PIT. Maybe you didn't actually watch the IND game this season (or look at the box score). CLE was in that game thanks to the D showing up that week. DA did nothing with that great D performance. While facing a IND D that was missing Sanders and Freeney. Well DA did do one thing in that game to help a win, he fumbled the ball that resulted in IND's TD.

 

Yup, mad NFL poise

[Guest Masters]

that game i referenced was at the apex of his college career, it should have some weight regarding having an "it" factor, even if it was at the college level. he still led his team whether it was yesterday or a decade ago and ND's defense was good enough to get them to the Bowl (i know, i know).

 

What bowl game was that (it's retorical)? That is the apex of his career, along with beating Clemens in college. Playing in a crap bowl, against a ND team carried by Quinn, while DA had Steven Jackson to hand off to. DA's scouting report today reads the same as it did when he was coming out of HS. That is lack of growth, no matter how you want to look at it.

[damajuki]

thanks for the reply damajuki.

 

sub-90 on his career and .500 or below as a starter has too many intangibles Derek can't control.

 

if DA ever becomes a perennial #1 QB of any team regardless of stats and performance i'd say that's a win for me. i doubt an NFL team would make him the face of the franchise w/out possessing the 'it' factor. i'd say it's safe to say he has it if he can accomplish that moving forward.

How can the two most important QB stats NOT be the best criteria to judge a QB?

 

So, no, I won't cyber-bet on something so broad as "if DA gets to start again or not".

 

I WANT DA to get to start again. I WANT another team to give us draft picks because we are morons and they can fix him. I don't want to bet against DA starting at all!

 

I mean, after all, he's 24, with NFL starting experience and a huge arm and obviously his past performance was affected by the poor seasons of the players around him. Guys like DA don't just come around that often, so teams better come take advantage of the Browns' stupidity.

 

At least that's what ManKok should be selling everyone darn second to every team that wants a QB.

 

Those of us who have watched him know that he won't break a 90 passer rating and be above .500 as a starter for his career which is why I don't blame you for not betting on him making those milestones.

 

[NewEraDawg]

What is this "golden Boy"? Has shown me he is just an average QB so far. It's too early to tell I guess When and if he wins as many SB's as Brady then we can call him the golden boy.

 

Maybe you missed the ??????? Get over yourself

 

The Brady Boys think he's the Golden Boy . What do you think all this jabber about DA is all about ?

 

 

 

This site along with every other Browns site must have a QB controversy going on or they will lose their servor I guess.

 

[lemosley01]

If Anderson were sacked 47 times in a season he:

1) Would have a passer-rating of about 30.

2) Have 29 interceptions

3) A bazillion fumbles (how many times did he fumble with no pressure)

4) Probably not last the season.

 

While Cassel has a really good supporting cast, we've all seen the turnover machine that Anderson becomes when he gets pressured. Cassell was SACKED 47 times; he was pressured WAY more than that.

 

14 sacks isn't the norm in the NFL, and good defenses figure out ways to pressure the QB. Can't have a guy that folds like a lawn chair under pressure, because you'll be facing good defense in the playoffs (assuming Cincinnati doesn't knock you out of contention, first).

 

(PS: Cassell IS a one year wonder. Just like Anderson).

[Zombo]

If Anderson were sacked 47 times in a season he:

1) Would have a passer-rating of about 30.

2) Have 29 interceptions

3) A bazillion fumbles (how many times did he fumble with no pressure)

4) Probably not last the season.

 

While Cassel has a really good supporting cast, we've all seen the turnover machine that Anderson becomes when he gets pressured. Cassell was SACKED 47 times; he was pressured WAY more than that.

 

14 sacks isn't the norm in the NFL, and good defenses figure out ways to pressure the QB. Can't have a guy that folds like a lawn chair under pressure, because you'll be facing good defense in the playoffs (assuming Cincinnati doesn't knock you out of contention, first).

 

(PS: Cassell IS a one year wonder. Just like Anderson).

 

I see avoiding sacks as the QBs responsibility, at least half the time. Sometimes you can't. But certain QBs are good at releasing the ball before going down, and reading bilitzes well enough to change the call. Look at Manning.

 

I don't see the 14 sacks Andseron had and say "oh he benefitted from a great O-line", I look at it and say "he did a great job of avoding being sacked."

 

Frye got sacked six times behind the same line in one half. Anderson has a quick release and that helps him avoid sacks.

 

When I see that Cassell got sacked 47 times behind the Patriots line, I don't think Anderson would get killed behind that line, I think Cassel is not good at avoiding sacks. Brady hasn't been sacked more than 30 times a season behind their line and schemes since 2002.

 

Zombo

[lemosley01]

I see avoiding sacks as the QBs responsibility, at least half the time. Sometimes you can't. But certain QBs are good at releasing the ball before going down, and reading bilitzes well enough to change the call. Look at Manning.

 

I don't see the 14 sacks Andseron had and say "oh he benefitted from a great O-line", I look at it and say "he did a great job of avoding being sacked."

 

Frye got sacked six times behind the same line in one half. Anderson has a quick release and that helps him avoid sacks.

 

When I see that Cassell got sacked 47 times behind the Patriots line, I don't think Anderson would get killed behind that line, I think Cassel is not good at avoiding sacks. Brady hasn't been sacked more than 30 times a season behind their line and schemes since 2002.

 

Zombo

 

Z, the problem, as I see it, is all that Anderson has going for him is a quick release. His quick relesae isn't accurate, and he has never shown the ability to read a defense and actually adjust a play to beat the blitz on a consistent basis. When he gets pressured he still panics.

 

Anderson does do a good job of getting rid of the ball - I noticed how the sacks went down when he came in after Frye was injured, but it still didn't translate into points on the board. I don't think accuracy can be taught and I don't think Anderson will ever become the guy who doesn't panic when he is pressured.

 

I remember the 2008 Oline - they gave him BRILLIANT protection in 2008, and even last years protection was top 10, until the end of the season when everyone just gave up. If Anderson had Cassell's protection and the pressure Cassell sees, his 2008 TD/INT numbers would be reversed.