miktoxic Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 am i the only one that thinks george is a decent guy just trying to fit in? hell we blasted all the JF fans worse than him and they were ten times the asshole that most of you think he is. need i say we kept a winner in texasAG? i see all the other ran for the hills. i think of buffalo as a sister city of cleveland (i use sister as a female denomination like you would call a ship). blue collar, cold weather good hearted people who take it on the chin every winter and are still there to talk about it in july when the sun finally comes out. both team's seasons ended in a bad place because of different reasons. i don't think he's gone overboard as some stooler fans that we tolerate as constant members here now do and have. maybe he's just bored and needs a drink. i know i am and do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 am i the only one that thinks george is a decent guy just trying to fit in? hell we blasted all the JF fans worse than him and they were ten times the asshole that most of you think he is. need i say we kept a winner in texasAG? i see all the other ran for the hills. i think of buffalo as a sister city of cleveland (i use sister as a female denomination like you would call a ship). blue collar, cold weather good hearted people who take it on the chin every winter and are still there to talk about it in july when the sun finally comes out. both team's seasons ended in a bad place because of different reasons. i don't think he's gone overboard as some stooler fans that we tolerate as constant members here now do and have. maybe he's just bored and needs a drink. i know i am and do. I am kind of new posting here so I won't say anything except some times it is good to get a viewpoint/perspective from outside Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Care to trade Manziel and Gilbert for Watkins today? manziel sure. gilbert, he's gonna be good. watkins, evans and a couple other look like great wr prospects, but look at the lions and raiders. all they did for years is draft wr and it still didn't put them over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 If you post in this thread again your next post will be in September ... I'm just telling you. Zombo Here's hoping you are a man of your word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thanks Toxic, you are a decent person. The insults, all of the disparaging remarks? I take with a grain of salt. Actually, its pretty damn entertaining. Its like Howard Stern, I'm tuning in to see what some of you guys say next... Look through my posts, I never start the decent into shit talking. I consider insults a sign of mental weakness and a general lack of intelligence. I don't live in that world, but again, I like watching Jerry Springer, and stupidity can be pretty damn entertaining. I generally feel sorry for those stuck from their own limitations and take this shit so seriously.. It's just football,and we all want to party with a winner. I guess it's natural to be pissed off at me, and I get that, but I do know who has the smarts here, and there are a few who talk with some intelligence and can see past the clouds and drama.... Cysco, dude, dump the hate. You will be better off. You tossed the ball, I simply vollied it back.. WTF do you Expect? I mean really? You are probably a decent guy that's a little misguided by a little home town emotion. TCPO, picks do not always translate into a sure thing. Don't act like you "won" something with a draft pick. Look at your past drafting record for the proof. What did you win last year with the 1st rounders, except a pile of headaches??? The year before, and before that? You parlayed one bust for another this past year.. The Bills have Watkins, and you have our pick. Care to trade Manziel and Gilbert for Watkins today? May that pick help the Browns, may Sammy go on to be an all pro if we ever get a guy who can throw. And, may you realize that none of us have control over the team, but know that your actions and the way you treat people here are a reflection of YOUR character.. Proud? calfoxwc, The last thing I need is self esteem. Trust me on that one. Look at the name Zombo gave me because he couldn't handle playing on a level playing field. Even Hoorta thinks that was a punk ass move. I think it reflects a lot more poorly on Zombo than me. If I were in need of self esteem, I wouldn't be laughing from little thoughts out of your head... My popcorn is out of the mic, so fire away... We did win something. We won two extra draft picks. You won a WR. It remains to be seen who ultimately won but, in my book, getting the guy we wanted, plus another opportunity for a top talented player, plus another opportunity for a foundational player always trumps talking one single player. We werent one player away from winning a Super Bowl. Obviously someone in the Bills organization felt that they were, and that's why the trade happened. Our drafting history prior to last season have absolutely nothing to do with this because we had an entirely different staff, different FO, and different owner. That's like comparing two different teams. You may enjoy talking shit, but the fact remains that the Bills draft was relative garbage. Outside of Watkins, you really only drafted two players who contributed in Brown and Henderson, and Henderson basically won the job by default. Kouandjio is seemingly a bust. I'd take our draft over Buffalo's any day of the week and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Buffalo who disagrees with that statement. But...but...but...Johnny Manziel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Here's hoping you are a man of your word. And I am.. Carry on .. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Insert "bottom line" and maybe the lights will go on. It doesn't matter about his past. How he's been coddled, or how stunted his is.. He is your property, what are the Browns to do? If you think you should cut him because he's immature and I'll equipped because of being stunted, by all means, cut him. So, that leaves the Browns with whom at WR??? I'm telling you that there will be 31 teams waiting in line to claim him, and attempt to fix his problems because his upside is spectacular. PS mo, I live two hours from Cleveland. In a ghetto called buffalllllooooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairHooker11 Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Hey..fukwad, then you'd post also calls it Hoorta. If you would have graduated high school, you would have been able to comprehend what we wrote. Until then, just watch and listen. Go back inside your welfare trailer and watch a little more Springer. Maybe apply to Everest while you are at it... meh... now if you added pissburgh then you would have fightin words George C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 I wish Gordon the best. Many here didn't seem to read at all what he said and just spewed the normal trash out of their mouths. I agree with what much of that letter said and I hope he's part of the team in the future. As for the Bills guy, idk why so many here are do hostile. Actually, I guess I'm not surprised. Many here shut out anything not pro browns. Those a lot of times are the first to turn on our players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 am i the only one that thinks george is a decent guy just trying to fit in? Yes... at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 We did win something. We won two extra draft picks. You won a WR. It remains to be seen who ultimately won but, in my book, getting the guy we wanted, plus another opportunity for a top talented player, plus another opportunity for a foundational player always trumps talking one single player. We werent one player away from winning a Super Bowl. Obviously someone in the Bills organization felt that they were, and that's why the trade happened. Our drafting history prior to last season have absolutely nothing to do with this because we had an entirely different staff, different FO, and different owner. That's like comparing two different teams. You may enjoy talking shit, but the fact remains that the Bills draft was relative garbage. Outside of Watkins, you really only drafted two players who contributed in Brown and Henderson, and Henderson basically won the job by default. Kouandjio is seemingly a bust. I'd take our draft over Buffalo's any day of the week and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Buffalo who disagrees with that statement. But...but...but...Johnny Manziel... I might be mistaken, but we only received one pick from Buffalo. We swapped our picks last year, which isn't really getting one, because we lost one also, and we got there 2015 pick. I believe that means we only got 1 pick from them. Right now I have to disagree, that no.19 pick we aquired cost us Watkins. Right now you have to see that we lost that trade currently. Basically we got Gilbert and a player yet to be named for Watkins who was great this year. Still have time though. I would say we still had a better draft, Bitonio, and West are very good, and we still have a couple years for Gilbert, and Johnny. We even added Crowell, and a couple other undrafted guys who had a decent year for us. But sorry currently we are losing the trade with Buffalo only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I might be mistaken, but we only received one pick from Buffalo. We swapped our picks last year, which isn't really getting one, because we lost one also, and we got there 2015 pick. I believe that means we only got 1 pick from them. Right now I have to disagree, that no.19 pick we aquired cost us Watkins. Right now you have to see that we lost that trade currently. Basically we got Gilbert and a player yet to be named for Watkins who was great this year. Still have time though. I would say we still had a better draft, Bitonio, and West are very good, and we still have a couple years for Gilbert, and Johnny. We even added Crowell, and a couple other undrafted guys who had a decent year for us. But sorry currently we are losing the trade with Buffalo only We received a 2015 first and a 2015 fourth. And then we got Gilbert. That's two future players and one current player for one sub-1000 yard receiver. Regardless of how "great" Watkins was, the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Even if Gilbert is only passable, we still won that trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Damn good post There's very little that "vetting" can do to correctly predict future decisions or behaviors. Each prospect is subjected to a psychological evaluation along with their physical evaluation. Each prospect background is checked. Each prospect has a dossier that details exactly who they are, where they came from, what they do, why they do it, and what they'll likely do in the future. But it's not perfect science. If it were, we wouldn't have draft busts. The fact remains that he is an investment, and some investments don't pay off. Holding onto a player that could be detrimental to the future success of your team just because you invested in him isn't always the smartest move. In fact, it's almost never the smartest move. If we let Gordon go and he goes off to become an eventual superstar, that's great for him. That doesn't mean he would have done it here. That's what people don't realize. It's not "oh, stupid Cleveland...releasing a HOFer because of a little pot." It could be that releasing him is what makes him a superstar. It could be that getting in with a different team, a different locker room, is what causes him to make changes. When you make a choice, there's no way of knowing what the opposite choice could have yielded. Obviously, there are bad influences in the Cleveland Browns locker room. Personally, I wonder if Johnny is at the root of this year's troubles with both Gordon and Gilbert. It's obviously not fair to blame someone for another person's antics, but knowing that Gordon and Manziel are buddies in their down-time, it's not that hard to image that Gordon is being put in situations he may not have been put in with other teammates this year. Having one player with known decision issues and another with known motivation issues is already a risk. Dropping a polarizing party boy who's known for his extracurricular activities into the middle of that seems like a recipe for disaster. I'll go on record as saying I think releasing Manziel could very well be what helps Gordon and Gilbert get back on track. Build a locker room of strong, professional players with great work ethic that all buy into the system, then you can start to take a risk and drop a few talented "bad seeds" in there one at a time. Just like New England used to do. That bad seed is either going to assimilate and rise to the level of his peers or the locker room will reject him and he'll flame out. Either way, you're not compromising your team's integrity. When you start trying to add questionable character players en masse, that's when things get hairy. Drop a droplet of blood in a cup of water, it quickly disappears. Squirt a bunch of blood in that same cup of water, it starts to tint the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 We received a 2015 first and a 2015 fourth. And then we got Gilbert. That's two future players and one current player for one sub-1000 yard receiver. Regardless of how "great" Watkins was, the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Even if Gilbert is only passable, we still won that trade. Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4. And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen. As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently. When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4. And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen. As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently. When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently. They traded a first round draft pick to us to switch #4 and #8 We don't know yet if Watkins is a #4 pick, Odell Beckham certainly looks a lot better. And we don't know if Justin Gibert was worth a #8 pick, he had a wasted first year but looks to be athletically gifted. Would I trade them Justin Gilbert and our #19 first round pick for Watkins today? No. Watkins looks like a mid-round pick to me, and we already have one of those ... plus Gilbert. Zombo Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 They traded a first round draft pick to us to switch #4 and #8 We don't know yet if Watkins is a #4 pick, Odell Beckham certainly looks a lot better. And we don't know if Justin Gibert was worth a #8 pick, he had a wasted first year but looks to be athletically gifted. Would I trade them Justin Gilbert and our #19 first round pick for Watkins today? No. Watkins looks like a mid-round pick to me, and we already have one of those ... plus Gilbert. Zombo Zombo At least 1 person understands that the trade was their 2015 1 and 4, for us to swap picks. We didn't gain a 1st round pick in 2014, we replaced one. We already had a pick. They gave us the 2015 picks for us to swap with them. So we only acquired 2 picks. I also will concede, that Gilbert could be good, but that means you have to concede that Watkins could be come elite. Which is more likely? I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Athletically gifted means nothing, JaMarcus Russel was athletically gifted. Gilbert didn't just look bad, he was one of the worst corner backs on our roster, while Watkins was a dynamic playmaker. Saying that Watkins is a mid round player at best is just laughable. Yes ODB was better, but that doesn't mean that Watkins was bad. He was better then Evans, and every other WR not named Odell Becham Jr. Honestly I can't even debate with someone that actually thought Watkins is a mid round player. That to me shows how little people on this board know about football. I know that I sound rude, but I am not trying to be. No one can deny the talent he has, and how well he did. I am unsure of what people expected of a #4 receiver. He had one of the better seasons for a rookie WR. You guys seem to forget, he was the #1 receiver on that team, he saw all the double teams, and coverage assignements designed to take him out of games. Even with that he had a very good year as a rookie on a team with offensive issues. I mean he had E.J Manuel as his QB for what the first 1/4 of the season? He is worse then Hoyer. I saw nothing of the sort from Gilbert, I saw constant penalties, a player who looked totally lost, and a player who was a downright liability on defense. And the absolute worst part of Gilbert? He didn't even have to cover players with the talent of Watkins. Haden covered the best receiver, so he was being destroyed by 2nd and 3rd team wideouts. He lost his job to an undrafted FA. Did Watkins lose his job to a undrafted FA? Nope. Watkins played week in and out against the top defender from every team. Gilbert got schooled by the 2nd and third best. You can say what you want, but there isn't a team in this league that would take Gilbert and #19 for #4 pick in any draft in the last 10 years. You may, but that's on you. There isn't another team in the league that would agree with you. Want to know how I can say i "know" that? because we would JUMP at the chance to move Gilbert and #19 to jump to 4. We would maybe even give up Gilbert, #12, and #19 for move to #4. So we will see if any offers come in for our #19 and Gilbert to move to a top 5 pick. I bet we don't make that move, you up for it? I am sure this comes of as rude, as I said I am not trying to be, but there isn't a nice way to question why you feel Watkins is a mid round pick, and some of the other points you try to make. Hopefully you didn't take this as rude, and if you did, I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4. And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen. As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently. When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently. I see the way you're looking at it, but that's not exactly the case. In terms of net gain, sure, we only gained two players. But the trade itself was literally #4 for #8, a 2015 1st, and a 2015 4th. If we had never traded with them, we would have just had one player (Gilbert, Watkins, whomever). Now, we will have three. If I gave you a player, and you give me three players, I'll have three new players and you'll have one new player. That's commonly called a "three-for-one". If I give you a Camaro and you give me a Mustang, a bag of footballs and $65 dollars...you've gained a Mustang, a bag of football and $65 dollars. From an equative standpoint, it's x = y + z + a, where X is Watkins, Y is Gilbert, Z is a 2015 1st, and A is the 2015 4th. For the Bills to "win" the trade, x will have to be greater than the sum of y, z and a (Gilbert, two as of yet unspecified players). I never claimed Gilbert was better than Watkins at the current point in time. What I did say is that, even if Gilbert and the other players are merely passable starters, that the Browns will have won the trade - because we'll have three starters to their one. Obviously, there is some give in this situation, because "starter" is a relative term. If Watkins goes on to become a perennial Pro Bowler, then I may have to readjust my claim. But, as it currently stands, the Browns have won the trade simply because the potential of each of the two yet undrafted players is limitless. They could draft Reggie White and Randy Moss with those two picks, or package them in a deal that lands them a franchise quarterback, or use them to trade back again and land two more first round picks. The possibilities are endless right now. Until actual players fill that role, the Browns have won the trade. As for quantity over quality, it's both. Drafting one franchise player and 6 garbage players year after year is the same as drafting 10 mediocre players. Neither will find a team success in the NFL. It's about recognizing what stage you're at and what you would need. Taking Watkins would have done nothing for us this year, so we took a deal that allowed us to add quality players at other positions of need. My previous playoff comment is intended to show that adding Watkins didn't help them make the playoffs immediately, which is normally the case when trading up to get a player. You are correct, we didn't make the playoffs either...however we've only received one-third of that trade payout (or none of it, according to you). You don't sound rude, you're just a novice debater. You make allegations and assumptions that are untrue and can leave you in a terrible position for a rebuttal. You make good points but then follow them up with absolutes that present others with opportunities to counterpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Hopefully you didn't take this as rude, and if you did, I apologize. Rude? No. Dense? Maybe... You said we swapped firsts and gained a 2015 first. It was pointed out that we also gained a 2015 4th. So you were wrong, even admitted you were, but went on as if you had something right... something aboutus not net gaining two firsts... something no one was arguing. A comment was made about Watkin's draft worth that I thought was clearly meant to be taken that he was a mid-first round talent, not a high-first rounder. Set you off on a long dissertation about him not being a mid-rounder, as in a 4th rounder or thereabouts. I think you are seeing arguments not made and arguing past the parties disagreeing with you. Then you claim your arguments have the support of the entire NFL... which means nothing. Just some observations from someone who also thought Watkins was the best WR in the 2105 draft (and still does), but threw him over the second Khalil Mack was available at #4. Even after that, I ended up having no issues with the trade Farmer made with the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I see the way you're looking at it, but that's not exactly the case. In terms of net gain, sure, we only gained two players. But the trade itself was literally #4 for #8, a 2015 1st, and a 2015 4th. If we had never traded with them, we would have just had one player (Gilbert, Watkins, whomever). Now, we will have three. If I gave you a player, and you give me three players, I'll have three new players and you'll have one new player. That's commonly called a "three-for-one". If I give you a Camaro and you give me a Mustang, a bag of footballs and $65 dollars...you've gained a Mustang, a bag of football and $65 dollars. This is where we disagree, I see what your saying, but we don't have 3, we would have had 1 already. We only got 2. The picks this year. Yes I understand the deal was for swapping, and the 2015 haul. I however disagree that we gained 3 picks; we didn't we gained 2 because we already had one. As I said I see what your saying, I just disagree. As I said I am not going to debate this, we don't have Gilbert and a 1 and 4, because had we not made the trade, it's very reasonable to believe we would have taken Gilbert anyways. Like i said, i respect your view of it, I just disagree. From an equative standpoint, it's x = y + z + a, where X is Watkins, Y is Gilbert, Z is a 2015 1st, and A is the 2015 4th. For the Bills to "win" the trade, x will have to be greater than the sum of y, z and a (Gilbert, two as of yet unspecified players). Again as i said i disagree, we already had Y, it wasn't added into the equation. We already had it. I never claimed Gilbert was better than Watkins at the current point in time. What I did say is that, even if Gilbert and the other players are merely passable starters, that the Browns will have won the trade - because we'll have three starters to their one. Obviously, there is some give in this situation, because "starter" is a relative term. If Watkins goes on to become a perennial Pro Bowler, then I may have to readjust my claim. But, as it currently stands, the Browns have won the trade simply because the potential of each of the two yet undrafted players is limitless. They could draft Reggie White and Randy Moss with those two picks, or package them in a deal that lands them a franchise quarterback, or use them to trade back again and land two more first round picks. The possibilities are endless right now. Until actual players fill that role, the Browns have won the trade. Even this makes sense, but again you are claiming something that is extremely unlikely. Most teams do not land 3 starters in 3 picks. On top of that, even if they are starters, they could be O'Niel Cousins starters. They could be starters for us, but backups or players who are cut from other teams. For them to be better then Watkins, they have to be more then starters. They have to at least be quality starters. Gilbert isn't currently even a 3rd string corner yet. Maybe he will, but your just assuming he will be good. As for quantity over quality, it's both. Drafting one franchise player and 6 garbage players year after year is the same as drafting 10 mediocre players. Neither will find a team success in the NFL. It's about recognizing what stage you're at and what you would need. Taking Watkins would have done nothing for us this year, so we took a deal that allowed us to add quality players at other positions of need. Actually you cannot claim that Watkins wouldn't help us, again that is an assumption, and not a fact. Our poor receiver play this year shows he would likely have helped. I am not claiming we are playoff bound, but if you think our receivers were good, then there is no reason to add receivers this year then right? Odds are we won't find one with Watkins talent, so we should just forgo it correct? My previous playoff comment is intended to show that adding Watkins didn't help them make the playoffs immediately, which is normally the case when trading up to get a player. You are correct, we didn't make the playoffs either...however we've only received one-third of that trade payout (or none of it, according to you). Yes i believe we haven't yet received it, because we would have likely walked away with the same guy. Now yes, we could do well with the 2 picks we added, I don't dispute that. I am only saying that currently as in moving forward till the draft, we didn't win the trade. I don't know how we will do with those picks, but people here are claiming we won the trade, we didn't. No matter how you look at it, currently 1 season in, they have a successful rookie wideout, and we have either nothing yet, or a horribly lackluster Gilbert, and nothing yet. That is the whole point of my debate. We haven't won the trade. Not yet. You don't sound rude, you're just a novice debater. You make allegations and assumptions that are untrue and can leave you in a terrible position for a rebuttal. You make good points but then follow them up with absolutes that present others with opportunities to counterpoint. I freely admit my stuff is opinion, but so is yours. I plainly pointed out several opinion/assumptions you also state as fact when they are not. Absolutes are real, until they are no more absolutes. 1200 years ago it was absolute the earth was flat, 600 years ago it was absolute the sun revolved around us. While i do speak in absolutes a little bit, that doesn't mean I won't be proven wrong. I know we could land a star at both picks, I know Gilbert could be come the next Revis. I get all of that, I just also know as of right now which is an absolute, we are losing that trade. In the future we may very well win, but I will wait till we do before saying we did. And those dates may be wrong lol, just trying to show an example. 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BitchTits Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 A comment was made about Watkin's draft worth that I thought was clearly meant to be taken that he was a mid-first round talent, not a high-first rounder. Set you off on a long dissertation about him not being a mid-rounder, as in a 4th rounder or thereabouts. This may very well be true, but understand he said Mid-Round pick. He didn't specify, and I have no reason to think that he meant round 1 "mid round". That isn't my fault. If that is what he mean, the that's fine, but don't blame me because it wasn't worded how I could follow it. To me that says Mid-Round pick. That means In the middle rounds, not the middle of the first round. I think you are seeing arguments not made and arguing past the parties disagreeing with you. Then you claim your arguments have the support of the entire NFL... which means nothing. Sorry no idea what you mean here, can you give me an example of where I do this? I only claim the entire NFL in one part, the part about the fact he said he would take #19 and Gilbert for the #4 pick. The is the only part in my entire piece i believe that i claim anything with the NFL. If I am wrong please show me. Just some observations from someone who also thought Watkins was the best WR in the 2105 draft (and still does), but threw him over the second Khalil Mack was available at #4. Even after that, I ended up having no issues with the trade Farmer made with the Bills. I had no issue either. I still don't have issues. I just think it's foolhardy to say we won the trade when we currently haven't won the trade. Watkins looks every bit a top 15 receiver in years to come, Gilbert looks like a backup at best, and we have no idea what we will get at 19 and in the 4th round. I think people are getting mad at me because I am disagreeing with them, but really I have the right. I am not here trolling, I am just stating simple observations that differ with what people say. I love the Browns, and I want them to be good, I thought the trade was great, we moved down, got our guy, and added what i hoped would be a top 10 pick. It hasn't worked out that way. This is oddly reminiscent of the Falcons trade, another one we lost. We still have time for this one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 At least 1 person understands that the trade was their 2015 1 and 4, for us to swap picks. We didn't gain a 1st round pick in 2014, we replaced one. We already had a pick. They gave us the 2015 picks for us to swap with them. So we only acquired 2 picks. I also will concede, that Gilbert could be good, but that means you have to concede that Watkins could be come elite. Which is more likely? I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Athletically gifted means nothing, JaMarcus Russel was athletically gifted. Gilbert didn't just look bad, he was one of the worst corner backs on our roster, while Watkins was a dynamic playmaker. Saying that Watkins is a mid round player at best is just laughable. Yes ODB was better, but that doesn't mean that Watkins was bad. He was better then Evans, and every other WR not named Odell Becham Jr. Honestly I can't even debate with someone that actually thought Watkins is a mid round player. That to me shows how little people on this board know about football. I know that I sound rude, but I am not trying to be. No one can deny the talent he has, and how well he did. I am unsure of what people expected of a #4 receiver. He had one of the better seasons for a rookie WR. You guys seem to forget, he was the #1 receiver on that team, he saw all the double teams, and coverage assignements designed to take him out of games. Even with that he had a very good year as a rookie on a team with offensive issues. I mean he had E.J Manuel as his QB for what the first 1/4 of the season? He is worse then Hoyer. I saw nothing of the sort from Gilbert, I saw constant penalties, a player who looked totally lost, and a player who was a downright liability on defense. And the absolute worst part of Gilbert? He didn't even have to cover players with the talent of Watkins. Haden covered the best receiver, so he was being destroyed by 2nd and 3rd team wideouts. He lost his job to an undrafted FA. Did Watkins lose his job to a undrafted FA? Nope. Watkins played week in and out against the top defender from every team. Gilbert got schooled by the 2nd and third best. You can say what you want, but there isn't a team in this league that would take Gilbert and #19 for #4 pick in any draft in the last 10 years. You may, but that's on you. There isn't another team in the league that would agree with you. Want to know how I can say i "know" that? because we would JUMP at the chance to move Gilbert and #19 to jump to 4. We would maybe even give up Gilbert, #12, and #19 for move to #4. So we will see if any offers come in for our #19 and Gilbert to move to a top 5 pick. I bet we don't make that move, you up for it? I am sure this comes of as rude, as I said I am not trying to be, but there isn't a nice way to question why you feel Watkins is a mid round pick, and some of the other points you try to make. Hopefully you didn't take this as rude, and if you did, I apologize. The whole gist of your argument, which you make over and over ... only makes sense if Watkins = #4 pick value. We'll see ... 128 targets, 65 catches (50.8%) and 6 TDs. "Not to be rude" but there are a lot of guys in the league that you can line up as a #1 WR all year and would catch half the passes thrown to them and score 6 TDs. Unless a WR is a game-changer, he is not worth a Top 5 pick. Watkins may develop into a top 5 pick type receiver, but, "not to be rude", but I see him more as having a solid-type career, not an explosive, game-breaking one. I am still taking the corner with shut-down talent and a mid-first rounder over Watkins. I just don't think Watkins' or Gilbert's careers will be defined by their rookie years, there is a lot to see yet, I still like our player plus a first over their player. I don't consider them "ahead" at this point. But it is an argument that is best visited a year from now at this point, you have made your position. Don't take that as rude ... ya go ahead, you might need a little rude awakening. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 The whole gist of your argument, which you make over and over ... only makes sense if Watkins = #4 pick value. We'll see ... 128 targets, 65 catches (50.8%) and 6 TDs. "Not to be rude" but there are a lot of guys in the league that you can line up as a #1 WR all year and would catch half the passes thrown to them and score 6 TDs. Unless a WR is a game-changer, he is not worth a Top 5 pick. Watkins may develop into a top 5 pick type receiver, but, "not to be rude", but I see him more as having a solid-type career, not an explosive, game-breaking one. I am still taking the corner with shut-down talent and a mid-first rounder over Watkins. I just don't think Watkins' or Gilbert's careers will be defined by their rookie years, there is a lot to see yet, I still like our player plus a first over their player. I don't consider them "ahead" at this point. But it is an argument that is best visited a year from now at this point, you have made your position. Don't take that as rude ... ya go ahead, you might need a little rude awakening. Zombo Zombo, as I said you have your opinion, and I have mine, you are trying to compare no. 1's who are not rookies, to a rookie wideout who faced the best the defense had to offer, and then some. I have no doubt there are receivers who would catch more passes, but did they as rookies? I bet most didn't. Your point is moot, because most of those receivers had a couple years to develop. Say what you want, but Watkins had a very solid year as the no.1 wideout and as a rookie. So you would really take an athletic failure at corner, over an athletic success at receiver right now? I mean you seriously would? You seem to not be following what I am saying. I am not saying that Gilbert is bad, and Watkins will be/is great. I am just correcting the wrong thinking here on who won this trade. Currently the Bills have. That might change; I don't know. But there is no mistaking, they won this trade so far. I am confused, what exactly are you expecting from a top 5 wideout? You make it sound like he should be Calvin Johnson? I mean lets look at some of the top wr taken. I hate to use stats to wake people up, but I guess it's what I have to do: 2013 no.8 Tavon Austin, who's rookie year was better? 2012 No. 5 Justin Blackmon, Who's rookie year was better? 2011 No. 4 Aj Green 65rec. 1057yds, 7 tds 2011 no. 6 Julio Jones 54rec. 949 yards, 8tds. 2010 no rookies of mention in the top 15 2009 no. 7 Darius heyward-bey, who had better rookie year? 2009 no.10 michael Crabtree, who had better rookie year? 2008 no wr of mention in the top 15 2007 no. 2 Calvin Johnson, 48 rec, 756 yards, 4 tds. Well Watkins beat him at least for the Rookie Year. 2007 no. 10 Ted Ginn Jr. Who had the better rookie year? 2006 no wr in top 15 2005 no. 3 Braylon Edwards, who had the better rookie year? 2005 no. 7 Troy Williamson, who had the better year? 2005 no. 10 mike Williams, who had the better year? 2004 no. 3 Larry fitzgerald 58 rec, 746yds and 8 tds. I still give the edge to Watkins, but we can call it a push. 2004 no. 7 Roy Williams Still losing 2004 no. 9 Reggie Williams. Still Losing Do you want me to continue? So other then 2 arguably 3 guys, he had a better rookie year then all of them in the last what 10-11 years? I will take that. The sad part is, it isn't even my point. I don't care how he did. The only reason it matters is because we need to see what we do with the picks we got this year. Then we can tell if it's been a good trade. I have one more question, If you feel that Watkins is a mid FIRST round pick ( I am glad you cleared that up) then what was Gilbert worth? A fourth round? Maybe a 5th? What criteria are you using to judge Watkins as a mid rounder, but Gilbert as a better guy? I don't drink kool-aid. I want the Browns to be good, and I want people to see what's real, and not what isn't. I really am curious by what you judge Watkins by, because Gilbert could actually be one of the worst ever corners taken in the top 15. At least Watkins beats most WR taken in those picks. Now that doesn't mean he will be bad, but he definitely isn't a Charles Woodson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kvoethe Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Time to give pink slip to JG, screw the open letters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 You learn in life (sometimes the hard way) to make better choices, better decisions. Gordon has made more than his share of bad choices at the young age of 23.You can make an argument either way on keeping or cutting Gordon. I fall on the keeping him side. He has talent. Gordon says he does not have a substance abuse problem but he should at least check in with a substance abuse counselor and let them help him decide that. I know that it can be harmful to a team to see bad behavior or lack of effort from other players not being addressed but Pettine did punish Gordon, Gilbert and Manziel by not allowing them to play in the Ravens game and banishing them to the locker room and the rest of the Browns players saw that as well. There are other types of punishment besides cutting a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Say what you want, but Watkins had a very solid year as the no.1 wideout and as a rookie. I agree he had a solid year. He is what I thought he was. Still a good trade for us. So you would really take an athletic failure at corner, over an athletic success at receiver right now? I mean you seriously would? Where did you get that? I never said he was an "athletic failure". That is actually the opposite of what I said. I said was obviously athletically gifted but had a lost year. That is apparently due to maturity issues. You seem to not be following what I am saying. I am not saying that Gilbert is bad, and Watkins will be/is great. I am just correcting the wrong thinking here on who won this trade. Currently the Bills have. That might change; I don't know. But there is no mistaking, they won this trade so far. I am following along just fine, Chief. I am disagreeing. And by the way, you just called Gilbert an "athletic failure" ... sounds to me like you did say he is bad. I am confused, what exactly are you expecting from a top 5 wideout? You make it sound like he should be Calvin Johnson? I mean lets look at some of the top wr taken. I hate to use stats to wake people up, but I guess it's what I have to do: 2013 no.8 Tavon Austin, who's rookie year was better? 2012 No. 5 Justin Blackmon, Who's rookie year was better? 2011 No. 4 Aj Green 65rec. 1057yds, 7 tds 2011 no. 6 Julio Jones 54rec. 949 yards, 8tds. 2010 no rookies of mention in the top 15 2009 no. 7 Darius heyward-bey, who had better rookie year? 2009 no.10 michael Crabtree, who had better rookie year? 2008 no wr of mention in the top 15 2007 no. 2 Calvin Johnson, 48 rec, 756 yards, 4 tds. Well Watkins beat him at least for the Rookie Year. 2007 no. 10 Ted Ginn Jr. Who had the better rookie year? 2006 no wr in top 15 2005 no. 3 Braylon Edwards, who had the better rookie year? 2005 no. 7 Troy Williamson, who had the better year? 2005 no. 10 mike Williams, who had the better year? 2004 no. 3 Larry fitzgerald 58 rec, 746yds and 8 tds. I still give the edge to Watkins, but we can call it a push. 2004 no. 7 Roy Williams Still losing 2004 no. 9 Reggie Williams. Still Losing Yes, I can tell you are confused. In my OPINION, Watkins is not going to have a career worthy of a Top Five pick, he is going to be more of a mid-first round value in my mind ... solid, but not a game-breaking talent. What you just did there was add fuel to my fire. You named a bunch of guys who were Top Ten picks (Not Top 5) and most of them were misses, not hits, showing the difficulty with nailing a pick by choosing a receiver that high. Green, Jones, Johnson and Fitzgerald are all hits. All top five picks. In my OPINION Watkins will be a notch below that guy. He's not going to have a HOF type career like Johnson or Fitz, or be as strong as a weapon as Green or Jones, in my opinion. Your opinion differs. That's allowed. Again, first year, he caught 50% of the balls thrown to him and scored 6 TDs. That doesn't tell us much, he could go your way to superstardom, or he could go my way to solid career. Either way, it doesn't make your opinion of the trade some kind of definite thing. So I THINK Watkins is a mid-first type guy and I KNOW we have mid-first round pick this year that we got in that trade. And I FEEL that with some maturity, Gilbert can be a shut down corner. So taking all of this into account, It is my OPINION that we are indeed, NOT losing that trade. Do you want me to continue? So other then 2 arguably 3 guys, he had a better rookie year then all of them in the last what 10-11 years? I will take that. The sad part is, it isn't even my point. I don't care how he did. The only reason it matters is because we need to see what we do with the picks we got this year. Then we can tell if it's been a good trade. I have one more question, If you feel that Watkins is a mid FIRST round pick ( I am glad you cleared that up) then what was Gilbert worth? A fourth round? Maybe a 5th? What criteria are you using to judge Watkins as a mid rounder, but Gilbert as a better guy? I don't drink kool-aid. I want the Browns to be good, and I want people to see what's real, and not what isn't. I really am curious by what you judge Watkins by, because Gilbert could actually be one of the worst ever corners taken in the top 15. At least Watkins beats most WR taken in those picks. Now that doesn't mean he will be bad, but he definitely isn't a Charles Woodson. First of all, you are saying about Watkins that only 2, arguably 3 guys have had better rookie years than Watkins in the last 10-11 year. Actually two guys, arguably 3 guys had better rookie years than Watkins THIS year. Watkins 128 Targets, 65 rec, 982 yds, 6 TDs Evans 122 Targets 68 rec, 1,051 12 TDs Benjamin 145 targets 73 rec, 1,008, 9 TDs Beckham 130 Target, 91 rec 1,305 12 TDs OK, not arguably, they did. Beckham missed the first four games by the way, and he would be the first WR out of the box in a redraft. In fact, not only would Watkins not be the #4 pick overall, he might be the 4th WR taken. As for Gilbert, ya, I still think he's a first round talent, the odds are that he comes around mentally. I can't make this any simpler for you: I would still take Gilbert and a first over Watkins on his own. It's OK to feel differently. But don't TELL us that is written in stone. Not to be rude ... Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 I agree he had a solid year. He is what I thought he was. Still a good trade for us. Where did you get that? I never said he was an "athletic failure". That is actually the opposite of what I said. I said was obviously athletically gifted but had a lost year. That is apparently due to maturity issues. I am the one who said failure, because he was. You said athletically gifted. That gives us and athletically superior failure. If you want to argue that he lost his job, and was a detriment to our secondary, that's up to you, but he is clearly a failure currently. I am speaking only with what we see. I am not stupid, I know that Watkins could come out next year, heat the 2nd year slump, and with no Orton could be downright horrible. I am only speaking of the sample size we currently have. Yes, I can tell you are confused. In my OPINION, Watkins is not going to have a career worthy of a Top Five pick, he is going to be more of a mid-first round value in my mind ... solid, but not a game-breaking talent. If you truly believe Watkins doesn't have game breaking talent, then neither does Gilbert. What criteria are you using? About 100% of the "people in the know" all agreed that Watkins had game breaking talent. Why do you feel differently? This is my issue, you say your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but you say nothing as to why you feel that way. If you are going to disagree with virtually every expert out there; you should at least explain why. What you just did there was add fuel to my fire. You named a bunch of guys who were Top Ten picks (Not Top 5) and most of them were misses, not hits, showing the difficulty with nailing a pick by choosing a receiver that high. Green, Jones, Johnson and Fitzgerald are all hits. All top five picks. In my OPINION Watkins will be a notch below that guy. He's not going to have a HOF type career like Johnson or Fitz, or be as strong as a weapon as Green or Jones, in my opinion. Your opinion differs. That's allowed. Should i be surprised you missed the entire point of me listing those players? I was ONLY showing how his rookie year is on par, or close to current ELITE receivers nothing more. That is why it's hard to debate with you. You took it as "it's hard to land a top 5 player who does good", The point was to show how top 5 AND top 15 players that are rookies generally perform in their rookie year. Understand now? The point was to judge by stats where Watkins falls into that place. I can name numerous round 2 and later receivers who are better then Watkins. That isn't my point. My point is for you to look at players around his draft position and how they did compared to him. The second point I tried to make was this, what is your criteria to show why you feel Gilbert and the #19 pick is better then Watkins? My question was Gilbert was a complete bust, and you also get the #19 pick. You assume that any team routinely lands stars on their picks, I know they do not. So I will take the guy who as a rookie did better then most, while facing the top defender, and coverages designed to remove him, over a guy who coudln't cover anyone, and a mid-late 1st round pick. Again, first year, he caught 50% of the balls thrown to him and scored 6 TDs. That doesn't tell us much, he could go your way to superstardom, or he could go my way to solid career. Either way, it doesn't make your opinion of the trade some kind of definite thing. Everyone who knows that stat doesn't factor into balls that are difficult catches, or misfires. You can likely assume that as many 10%-15% are qb misfires, or batted passes by the defender. As for 50% Demaryius Thomas 60% Julio Jones 61% Jordy Nelson 64% Andre Johnson 57% Antonio Brown 70% Alshon Jeffery 58% Kelvin Benjamin 50% Mike Evans 55% Is it possible or likely that the younger the receiver the more likely they have a lower %? These are the top guys in the league, and they are only a bit ahead. What is 10% maybe 20 receptions over the whole year amounting to what 1.3 receptions per game? See how that stat is extremely relative? It's good to know how often they catch but it isn't always telling the whole story. As far as I see Watkins is a bit less than par with some of the best in the league, or atleast in the same circle as other young players. I just don't see why you are hanging your hat on 1 stat. So I THINK Watkins is a mid-first type guy and I KNOW we have mid-first round pick this year that we got in that trade. And I FEEL that with some maturity, Gilbert can be a shut down corner. So taking all of this into account, It is my OPINION that we are indeed, NOT losing that trade. Again this is on you, this trade so far has clearly been lost. It's unlikely we will draft a guy at 19 that will be as good as Watkins is, and currently Gilbert is nothing more then a warm body because he was arguably the worst first round corner ever. You do get that right, EVER? If you want to keep saying we won for pride sake, go for it, we clearly haven't yet. Maybe next year Watkins will suck, and the 19 guy will be a stud, or at least a contributor. Even as a contributor, we still lose because Watkins was at the very least solid. First of all, you are saying about Watkins that only 2, arguably 3 guys have had better rookie years than Watkins in the last 10-11 year. Actually two guys, arguably 3 guys had better rookie years than Watkins THIS year. Watkins 128 Targets, 65 rec, 982 yds, 6 TDs Evans 122 Targets 68 rec, 1,051 12 TDs Benjamin 145 targets 73 rec, 1,008, 9 TDs Beckham 130 Target, 91 rec 1,305 12 TDs I was pointing out over the last 10-11 years. This draft class for WR has already been proclaimed as the best ever. Do you think that has anything to do with it? I mean I could say the 1983 draft for QB's was the best ever, but you would find a reason to bash them. OK, not arguably, they did. Beckham missed the first four games by the way, and he would be the first WR out of the box in a redraft. In fact, not only would Watkins not be the #4 pick overall, he might be the 4th WR taken. As for Gilbert, ya, I still think he's a first round talent, the odds are that he comes around mentally. Still haven't explained why you feel he is a first round talent. If it's just because of his athleticism that is arguably the worst reason ever. There have been SO many players who are athletically gifted who SUCK. Andrew Luck only has some athleticisim, he had a good 40, but isn't particularly agile, but he has a great arm, and an even better understanding. Look at RG3, much more athletic, and sucks. What is your reason for putting him into the first round? It can't be athleticism only. I can't make this any simpler for you: I would still take Gilbert and a first over Watkins on his own. Your mistake I guess. I don't know what else to say. You can take the athletic failure, and the late teens pick, I will take the solid guy who at the very least could be a solid wide out for his career, that's far more than Gilbert has shown, and you are hanging your hat on hitting on that 19 pick. There is a reason most draft picks fail regardless of the round they are in. If it's so easy to land star players at any pick, why do teams suck? Why are there drafts looked at as the reason? Because it's not that easy. It's OK to feel differently. But don't TELL us that is written in stone. Not to be rude ... 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BitchTits Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Zombo, I didn't want to have a super long post, so I am adding this just after my first post. You can keep being rude tossing in the "Not to be rude" I was being serious. If you want to be and ass, be an ass. If you want to debate football then lets debate football. I have explained why i feel the way I do, I have shown stats, I have shown your 1 stat as subjective, and all you do is just say opinions, and claim them as fact. The only thing i said that is written in stone is the fact we are losing this trade. I never said Watkins was the best ever, or would even be elite. All I said about Gilbert is he was horrible, and he was, I have said several times he may be better next year. I also said it's harder then you think to land a good much less great player at any draft pick. These are all truths, not opinions. You can list all the stats you want, but until you can prove why a CURRETNLY failed corner, and a 19 pick are better then a proven with elite talent (from the experts not me) I will continue to believe we have lost this trade currently, and it is set in stone. I am open minded unlike most on these boards, show me where I am wrong, and I will gladly admit it. Do not toss a subjective stat, that many rookies, and elite guys suffer from. A stat that has as much to do with the guy throwing him the ball, as it does the guy catching it. One last thing, the definition of the stat you keep tossing Thanks to Sporting Charts.com (for plagarism reasons) This measures the percentage of catches a receiver makes versus how many balls were thrown in his direction. In order for a pass to count as a target for a given receiver, it must be obvious to the scorekeepers that the quarterback is throwing to the receiver. This statistic is calculated by dividing the total number of catches made by the total number of targets for a given receiver. Notice it says in his direction, it doesn't say within his reach, or passes dropped vs. caught. It says in his direction. That stat is useful, but not when it's the only one you have to back you up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well, cd, I don't give a frick what you think, you can take your stats and shove them. I don't care a damn about watkins, and looking back and whining and bitching, and trying to stir stuff up. Gilbert has a ton of upside, and in our division we will need him next year. And we were hoping Gordon had a great year, but he was an idiot. But you are being an ass. Second guessing is for the birds. It's baloney. You are full of baloney. The bills don't play in the Browns' division, and we don't know who the qb is going to be. HINT: Last year's draft is OVER. We are already coming up on the 2015 draft. Last year it was 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well, cd, I don't give a frick what you think, you can take your stats and shove them. I don't care a damn about watkins, and looking back and whining and bitching, and trying to stir stuff up. Gilbert has a ton of upside, and in our division we will need him next year. And we were hoping Gordon had a great year, but he was an idiot. But you are being an ass. Second guessing is for the birds. It's baloney. You are full of baloney. The bills don't play in the Browns' division, and we don't know who the qb is going to be. HINT: Last year's draft is OVER. We are already coming up on the 2015 draft. Last year it was 2014. Cry much? You want a tissue? Really I don't care what you think either. The simple mind cannot debate, all it can do is toss insults and whine. Grats you win!! Btw it's Cb not cd. and I am not second guessing the draft. Show me where I am. If you need me to read the posts to you let me know; because, I know you won't find it. All I did was share an opinion on a topic someone else started. Feel free to get butt hurt if you must, but I wasn't being an ass. I have as much right to post an opinion as you, so why don't you stay out of this topic, and let the people who are here to talk; TALK!! Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 , and all you do is just say opinions, and claim them as fact. No I clearly ... CLEARLY ... In all Caps yet, said I am stating this as OPINION. If you missed this you are not going to get anything at all. The only thing left is for me to make little drawings, and I don't have time for that, I just need a smarter audience (I'm referring to you). One last thing, the definition of the stat you keep tossing Back up, Chachi, I am fully aware that it is a "loose" stat ... which is why I never used it without it's obvious companion "production" stats: Receptions, yards and TDs. The "targets" were there only as a compliment so some assmunch like yourself wouldn't pull it out to counter my production stats. So you can go ahead and read it like this: "Beckham, Evans and Benjamin all caught more passes, for more yards and more TDs than Watkins. in addition, Benjamin and Evans caught a much higher percentage of passes targeted toward them. But take that last stat with a grain of salt because there are a lot of outside influences on that stat that the WR can't control." Feel better? (sorry, I thought everybody knew that but you are no mensa candidate are you?) Feel free to take targets away, but it doesn't help Watkins any ... he was still less productive than theses three receivers drafted after him in every single way. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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