No ‘magic bullet’ in Obama housing relief plan

[osusev]

NO hoorta I dont think the Government can fix all economic problems than the free market can. In fact beyond competent oversight and regulation ( to safegaurd system collapse) I think the free market is very effective by competition of the strongest to correct weakness in business.

 

THIS particular problem of special interest and the flawed republican laissez faire ideology unfortunately can not fix itself because they dismantled the oversight and system rules.

 

Yes there are irresponsible borrowers and lenders, however the backend climate (meaning Wall street and the insurance industries) created an envirement that unless the banks adopted over aggressive product lending they would not survive against the rest of the field.

 

This was intentional... The problem they did not foresee was 9-11 and Bush's cronies having a Iraq agenda before Bush even was elected. The energy and war sector along with commodities traders pushed for what would benefit them. The end result was the system could not handle BOTH problems simaltaneously and ended up multiplying our economic collapse.

 

This was not just the deregulation of insurance and banking it was the combo of the Iraq/Afghanistan war/occupation costs and oil/energy deregulation combined with instability of the main energy producing region due to our leaders choice to destroy two nations and then rebuild them somehow.

 

This problem is now so large that the ONLY answer is to invest in our own system by borrowing against ourselves to find a stop gap measure to stop/slow down foreclosures which is part of the major downgrading of property value and banking credit flow problem.

 

I do believe healthy competition in a free market enterprise is the BEST way for industry to regulation efficiency and product superiority. The greed factor in business needs to be checked by regulation and competent oversight for the overall good of the system. You can not tell business who have no morality or care for the greater good of the system to regulate themselves.... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN and all it takes is a few of them to tear everything down.

 

Diehard that fine we can agree to disagree, be assured my opinion of how to handle those criminals is probably as aggressive as yours.

 

Personally I think the way Meir handled the Munich olympic kidnapping and subsequent deaths is the way we should have and should handle future similar terror tactic issues from these criminal organizations.

 

She authorized the Mossad to track down and kill Black september members ANYWHERE. They did not go to war they assasinated anyone associated with that group and the operation.

 

I have a healthy respect for the Israeli's in general, I dont agree with how they treat the Palestinions nor their expansionist policies but their Military and Mossad tactics and training backed up by a pretty pragmatic government.

 

Currently it is my opinion that is EXACTLY what we were doing in Iraq... That was responsible for the drop in violence in Iraq not the surge. I think the surge was PR to cover for what brutal assasination tactics we are using on Iraq counter militia heads. Sadr wont come back to Iraq and is hiding in Iran for a reason.

[choco]

lotta back-peddling in here.....

 

 

so can we all agree that doing even the wrong thing is better than doing nothing?

[Pumpkin Eater]

Clearly politics is ruining this nation. Too many people think you are either with your or against you. I find it amazing that people can object to deficit spending to help prevent a great depression just because it's a democrat's plan, but were perfectly fine with deficit spending to pay for a needless war in somewhat good economic times because it was a republican's plan.

 

It's possible the reverse could be said, but then again I don't see how anyone could think spending money rebuilding our cumbling infastructure and sharing up the financial sector could be worse than empire building.

[Westside Steve]

lotta back-peddling in here.....

 

 

so can we all agree that doing even the wrong thing is better than doing nothing?

 

 

Nope.

And it's pretty bad when even Obammy's acolytes can't come up with a better defense of this bill.

 

And make no mistake; the market has plummeted since Dems took the houses but especially since Obammy has been the frontrunner and winner.

 

We (Americans) have spent so much negative energy toward a few CEOs who make money when thier businesses fail (not unlike athletes and actors) that we'e cut off our noses to spite our collective face.

WSS

 

WSS[/b]

[Legacy Fan]

I find it amazing that people can object to deficit spending to help prevent a great depression just because it's a democrat's plan, but were perfectly fine with deficit spending to pay for a needless war in somewhat good economic times because it was a republican's plan.

 

I'd bet my right arm that even the most uneducated, gun-totin' red-stater had a more profound reason for supporting said war than simply "because it's a Republican's plan."

 

I find it amazing that you could make such an uninformed generalization in an effort to challenge the reason people are opposed to deficit spending.

 

Breaking News: People are opposed to wasteful spending, not deficit spending.

 

We've already ponied up the money, yet the newly created position of CPO (Chief Performance Officer) has yet to be filled (after the 1st selection had a bit of tax trouble .) Total waste. Toss in a newly created "board of high ranking officials" (whatever the fcuk that means) that the CPO is supposed to sit on top of, and you've got a recipe for a family size portion of clusterfcuk.

 

The state assemblies have yet to convene to determine exactly how to spend and monitor this money, and you think it's a matter of Repub. vs. Democrat? Mystifying.

 

sev has eternally trumpeted the notion that "REPUBLICAN LAISSEZ FAIRE PRINCIPLES" have been the sole responsibility of our current situation. It's possible, but I disagree. However, the stimulus plan of "DEMOCRATIC REWARD TO THE PERSONS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DISASTER" isn't the most effective way of regulate, repair, and reconstruct. Especially when everyone knows the regulate part is just expansion of another inefficient government agency, or creation of an entirely new inefficient government agency. Both are nothing more than dog & pony show's anyway.

[Roy.E.Munson]

Obama's new low for liberalism means he plans for us to move to a new Socialism by him which is supposed to be a new improved Socialist State never tried before.

[Kosar_For_President]

They had to reshuffle their priorities to hedge against heading into another depression.

 

Maybe this is crazy talk, and I'm just thinking out loud here, but maybe prioritizing spending money on our OWN country to hedge against depression is a TAD different than wildly spending billions of dollars in Iraq to find Dubya Em Deez.

 

Well put. Very well put.

[Kosar_For_President]

Nope.

And it's pretty bad when even Obammy's acolytes can't come up with a better defense of this bill.

 

And make no mistake; the market has plummeted since Dems took the houses but especially since Obammy has been the frontrunner and winner.

 

We (Americans) have spent so much negative energy toward a few CEOs who make money when thier businesses fail (not unlike athletes and actors) that we'e cut off our noses to spite our collective face.

WSS

 

WSS[/b]

 

LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.

 

I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.

 

Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.

[Legacy Fan]

LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.

 

I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.

 

Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.

 

I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.

 

Reading comprehension: look into it.

[Westside Steve]

I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.

 

Reading comprehension: look into it.

 

It is a fine thing indeed.

Not to mention the fact that Dems have been yapping all along about the deficit projection under Bill Clinton.

I'd point out that Bill had a Republican house and senate to keep him on track.

Also that we did not elect Clinton or any other moderate DLC Dem this time.

And the deficit hawks no longer have a place at the table.

 

(nor do the bipartisan gang or the accountability faction or the personal responsibility, uh, herd)

 

WSS

[Kosar_For_President]

I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.

 

Reading comprehension: look into it.

 

Awwww, your noble efforts to stick up for your boyfriend is lovable and cute. LOL, "front-runner and winner" applies to that he WON, right? Wouldn't winner suggest he WON the election? And front-runner of what? When he was the "front-runner" he had no control over what was going on during Bush's watch. LOL, so cute.

 

The point is that the crisis started well before even Bush was in office. When Clinton was in office, the Republicans lost a few seats in the House and gained a few in the Senate, but overall retained control of the Congress. Deregulation of home loans started then, not when "Obammy was the front-runner and winner". We can all agree the deregulation of home loans started this mess. It's everyone's fault Republican, Democrats, Presidents, and Congress.

 

Congress is now giving a hand out to the people who in turn, were given these loans they couldn't afford, by that same group of people. It's like their playing Monopoly. I think they feel guilty, NOT.

[Kosar_For_President]

It is a fine thing indeed.

Not to mention the fact that Dems have been yapping all along about the deficit projection under Bill Clinton.

I'd point out that Bill had a Republican house and senate to keep him on track.

Also that we did not elect Clinton or any other moderate DLC Dem this time.

And the deficit hawks no longer have a place at the table.

 

(nor do the bipartisan gang or the accountability faction or the personal responsibility, uh, herd)

 

WSS

 

Republican house to keep him on track? They are all to blame.

[osusev]

Legacy I dont think Laissez faire principles are the sole causation of our current predicament. It is certainly a important Factor but the war and rebuilding in two nations in the middle east (oil) is one HUGE factor.

 

We dont know how an Obama white house will administer yet... or how inefficient or efficient they can be. Judging by their primary and presidential campaigns they are a efficiency monster. Than again that is not working with a self serving combative congress and multiple federal and state agencies.

 

I started in the thread because of some flawed purely politicized concepts of the stimulas package spending "our money"... This problem is too large now that unless government steps in we are going to economically crash into a major depression. Investing from our own credit basically to save ourselves is the ONLY tool that is left. Its not like we have choices anymore.

 

The combo from the overreaction to 9-11 war in two countries and subseqeunt rebuilding efforts along with attempting to keep stability in the richest energy producing region combined with deregulated overaggressive insurance/securities products was too much for ANY economy to handle.

 

2 trillion and counting from the Iraq/afghanistan is a MAJOR economic drain.... imagine that money being spent HERE.... we would not be in the position we are in.

[Westside Steve]

Republican house to keep him on track? They are all to blame.

 

 

So you are against a split?

You prefer carte blanche for this spending bill?

Or any bill for any president??

 

Or are you just hedging for Obammy?

WSS

[Westside Steve]

2 trillion and counting from the Iraq/afghanistan is a MAJOR economic drain.... imagine that money being spent HERE.... we would not be in the position we are in.

 

 

Spent where and on what exactly?

Imagine on the other hand a healthy and happy Saddam selling oil to France by the Euro.

Sound good?

WSS

[choco]

2 trillion and counting from the Iraq/afghanistan is a MAJOR economic drain.... imagine that money being spent HERE.... we would not be in the position we are in.

money that was approved by a democratic congress.....

 

you seem to think that bringing up an unrelated circumstance gives some sort of validation to your argument. think again.....our gov't wastes a ton of money.....you think its a waste when it goes to the war machine, others think its a waste giving it away to americans that didn't do a damn thing to earn it.

 

point being, wasting more money isn't an answer. it wasn't then, and it isn't now. im sure that 30 mil mouse fund could build a couple bridges as well....it is what it is.

[Kosar_For_President]

You prefer carte blanche for this spending bill?

 

No because it didn't work the first time for Bush.

 

Or are you just hedging for Obammy?

 

I am not "hedging" for anyone. I am "hedging" for our country.

[Westside Steve]

You prefer carte blanche for this spending bill?

 

No because it didn't work the first time for Bush.

 

Bush 1?

Bush 2 had the slimmest of majorities while today Obammy can't be stopped.

But the economy was great until he lost that.

What was it you didn't like that went down along party lines, just for the heck of it?

 

Or are you just hedging for Obammy?

 

I am not "hedging" for anyone. I am "hedging" for our country.

 

Then what possible good does it do to keep bellyachinbg about Bush the idiot when he has nothing to do with this now?

I'm curious.

WSS

 

[osusev]

choco 2 trillion dollars and counting is UNRELATED when it affects ENERGY meaing oil prices which effects EVERYTHING HERE..... OK. That has to be about the dumbest statement concerning ongoing causation of currency devaluation and GDP/economic cascading climates related to our current recession.

 

Steve..... how is Nigeria's corrupt warlords doing in that oil rich region... or any other dictator in Africa... As for a Saddam you are trying to shift a discussion about geopolitical morality? Really..... ANYONE who brings up some moral imperative about how terrible Saddam was as justification in some way for our obvious Oil grab is laughably simple. We the people ignore atrocities all over the globe and to point to one specific guy and say look we did the right thing is funny.

 

That loon in north Korea has starved MILLIONS of people to death and has concentration camps.... are we invading? NO.. there are quite a few despots currently operating or corrupt governments who commit wholesale murder.

 

Steve do you remember the quandry about what to do with the SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS FUNDS THAT BUSH INHERITED..... GONE. 2 Trillion dollars would go a long way into our energy infrastructure or moving our auto and manufacturing industry into more efficient models not to mention the energy utlity sector... Healthcare.....

 

If the dems had spent 2 trillion dollars on domestic programs the conservative republicans would have heart attacks. Choco go look up when the democrats got the BARE majority of congress and when Bush had a republican house and senate on who passed what. Bush had the bully pulpit and vetoed anything from the dems anyways and pretty much got his way.

 

Good god the Republican party is in shambles because they have no identity right now. Conservative spending is not something they did and Laissez faire principles leading to deregulation has helped destroy the ecnoomy. The neocon agenda led us into disaster in the middle east and drained 2 trillion + dollars and counting... remember when Bush and the republicans were talking about the oil in Iraq would pay for the war and rebuilding.... How is that going? Answer about as good as the "hunt" for Osama bin Ladin.

 

I am not saying government is efficient or will spend all of the stimulas effectively without special interest and waste. I happen to think the government pay to play special interest lobbying has hijacked our system and it no longer represents the people but corps and other organized groups.

 

I just happen to believe that this is the ONLY tool left to slow down and hopefully stop us from free falling into a major depression.

[Legacy Fan]

Awwww, your noble efforts to stick up for your boyfriend is lovable and cute. LOL, "front-runner and winner" applies to that he WON, right? Wouldn't winner suggest he WON the election? And front-runner of what? When he was the "front-runner" he had no control over what was going on during Bush's watch. LOL, so cute.

Indeed.

Yes, he "won" the election in November (the month before December) assuring his inevitable inauguration (another record Dow slide for a day) and he was the media "front-runner" back when he announced his intention to run for office.

Wow.

If English is not your 1st language, please accept my sincere apologies.

 

The point is that the crisis started well before even Bush was in office. When Clinton was in office, the Republicans lost a few seats in the House and gained a few in the Senate, but overall retained control of the Congress. Deregulation of home loans started then, not when "Obammy was the front-runner and winner". We can all agree the deregulation of home loans started this mess. It's everyone's fault Republican, Democrats, Presidents, and Congress.

Agree here also. Although it's actually more of the action of blocking of increased regulations on home loans per the Bush administration's suggestion that mindless idiot Barney Frank oversaw as chair of the finance committee. The "no-limit" insurance Fan/Fred offered to (read: forced on) lenders was what initiated the collapse. Some in the Bush admin thought this unwise but they were immediately labeled horned & tailed scrooges who didn't want the poor & middle class to have affordable housing - double so if you're a minority. Damn old white rich republicans at it again! Evil bastards.

 

Also, de-regulation under Clinton and his Republican congress was more in the enterprise sector (Enron) and not so much the housing market.

 

Congress is now giving a hand out to the people who in turn, were given these loans they couldn't afford, by that same group of people. It's like their playing Monopoly. I think they feel guilty, NOT.

In complete agreement here. Horrible idea.

 

[Legacy Fan]

Legacy I dont think Laissez faire principles are the sole causation of our current predicament. It is certainly a important Factor but the war and rebuilding in two nations in the middle east (oil) is one HUGE factor.

 

 

 

The combo from the overreaction to 9-11 war in two countries and subseqeunt rebuilding efforts along with attempting to keep stability in the richest energy producing region combined with deregulated overaggressive insurance/securities products was too much for ANY economy to handle.

 

2 trillion and counting from the Iraq/afghanistan is a MAJOR economic drain.... imagine that money being spent HERE.... we would not be in the position we are in.

 

Perhaps. I just think the average 3 bedroom home would be in the 7-figure range opposed to the low 6's. I'm not entirely sure the money would have been spent more wisely at home either.

[choco]

That has to be about the dumbest statement concerning ongoing causation of currency devaluation and GDP/economic cascading climates related to our current recession.

first this...which was OK.

 

I just happen to believe that this is the ONLY tool left to slow down and hopefully stop us from free falling into a major depression.

and you claim what i wrote was the dumbest statement?

 

i didn't realize this recession was an energy policy problem.

 

please continue, oh enlightened one......

[osusev]

choco you dont understand that volatile energy prices spiking artificially from envirement pressures in the middle east also from dismantled oversight that no longer exists causing massive problems for us?

 

EVERYTHING in the U.S. is dependent upon transportation IE: OIL cost. The cascading costs that shrink profits from increased overhead related to gas/oil based product increases effects everything. That also takes money away from EVERY sector of our economy to be spent on increased transportation costs. Those obviously effect purchasing of any other products in lieu of being able to afford increased transportation/increased goods costs. That eventually spills toward market confidence at reduced profits and shrinking growth.....

 

OIL/ENERGY is the lifeblood that fuels our consumption, it can also cause it to slowdown or stall which started last year depressing travel and purchase along with increasing food cost etc.

 

You really need to take a basic Macro economics course or go get yourself a book.

[Legacy Fan]

choco you dont understand that volatile energy prices spiking artificially from envirement pressures in the middle east also from dismantled oversight that no longer exists causing massive problems for us?

 

EVERYTHING in the U.S. is dependent upon transportation IE: OIL cost. The cascading costs that shrink profits from increased overhead related to gas/oil based product increases effects everything. That also takes money away from EVERY sector of our economy to be spent on increased transportation costs. Those obviously effect purchasing of any other products in lieu of being able to afford increased transportation/increased goods costs. That eventually spills toward market confidence at reduced profits and shrinking growth.....

 

OIL/ENERGY is the lifeblood that fuels our consumption, it can also cause it to slowdown or stall which started last year depressing travel and purchase along with increasing food cost etc.

 

You really need to take a basic Macro economics course or go get yourself a book.

 

I call BS. I don't think the cost of oil has such a steep (in)elasticity curve as you may think. Not 4-5 months ago, we were treated with a real-life, honest-to-goodness example of what was artificially inflating the cost of gas at the pump. It sure as shit wasn't the cost of oil. Or the cost of refining said oil.

As soon as the commodities traders ran out of credit to play with, the cost/price of oil (and subsequently gas at the pump) was cut in half. If you're Exxon (or anybody for that matter), you don't get to keep posting a new record profit every quarter because your operating costs are increasing. Come on, buddy.

 

I'd suggest refreshing your own 101 before offering unsolicited 200-level reading advice.

[osusev]

really legacy, fluxuating energy prices meaning oil is not one of the most dominant factors in our overall economy.... so when gas was 4.00 and oil was trading at 150 per barrel/plastics and oil based manufactured product pricing did not go up... trucking/transportation costs did not go up.... food costs did not go up... etc.. etc the following quarters of reported earnings to wall street were not down with a listed cause of increased manufacturing and transportation costs.. airlines did not increase fare.... travel was not depressed due to increased costs meaning even Vegas and other destination spots were not down in visiters and earnings... U.S. miliatary operating budgets did not increase due to increased transportation costs... The strategic reserve of oil must not exist for that vary reason... Spending contraction that is commonly and directly linked to consumer spending budgets on gasoline must all be a figment of my imagination..

 

Your right call bs on a basic well known economic influence.

[Westside Steve]

OK, thanks Sev for clarifying that. I will admit that I'm not an economist , and I was confused about the whole thing. I'm just a retired Military guy with an Associates Degree in Criminal Justice. I can be an a---hole a lot of times, but usually because I'm being "baited" by the super intelligent people. Thanks again, and peace.

 

 

Uh gee......

I guess it's easy for the common man to foolishly think that a bloated loan like that might possibly in some small way end up being paid by tax money.

It's a relief to know it's a gift.

 

I'll be looking forward to renegotiating my mutual funds.

 

WSS

 

[Legacy Fan]

really legacy, fluxuating energy prices meaning oil is not one of the most dominant factors in our overall economy.... so when gas was 4.00 and oil was trading at 150 per barrel/plastics and oil based manufactured product pricing did not go up... trucking/transportation costs did not go up.... food costs did not go up... etc.. etc the following quarters of reported earnings to wall street were not down with a listed cause of increased manufacturing and transportation costs.. airlines did not increase fare.... travel was not depressed due to increased costs meaning even Vegas and other destination spots were not down in visiters and earnings... U.S. miliatary operating budgets did not increase due to increased transportation costs... The strategic reserve of oil must not exist for that vary reason... Spending contraction that is commonly and directly linked to consumer spending budgets on gasoline must all be a figment of my imagination..

 

Your right call bs on a basic well known economic influence.

 

Please point to a single word in my post that would suggest the high cost of oil does not effect those who consume it. Holy shit.

 

sev you get on these agendas where you just memory dump everything you know on a certain subject into a post without acknowledging any responses to anything you have written previously.

 

Take off the blinders, re-read what I wrote, understand that I was merely talking about the actual cause for the artificially inflated cost of oil -and subsequently gas- (as opposed to your notion that Bush's War & "dismantled oversight that no longer exists" which is missing and isn't used anymore because it's not around.... ) and then post something intelligent on that response. Is this how you have conversations with people, using cue-cards & ignoring whatever they respond with? This is like those Mad Libs books from when I was a kid.

 

No wonder we suck as a nation.

[Westside Steve]

LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.

 

So you keep harping on that.

OK one of the biggest periods of growth in history UNTIL the Democrats took the houses.

Correct?

A stinking bailout bill that BOTH parties pused through and YES Bush signed it.

Who here is pimping that?

An automaker bailout that nobody wanted and voted against BUT too f*ckin' bad.

Right?

 

Of course seeing the great success of that (and Bush only got half Obammy still gets the other half) someone as clear thinking as you might be a little hesitant to burn 4 times that much on pork.

No??

 

I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.

 

2008?

Who was president elect?

Isn't the market reaction to that negative so far?

Hmm we'd better research that huh?

 

Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.

 

Is it objective to see that as soon as it became likely Obammy was going to win consumer confidence and the stock market crashed?

Or what exactly?

 

Is "change" all you want? Change for the worse?

Well you have it.

 

So back to your harangue.

What is it that Bush did to cause the crash?

List them and we'll see if we all agree and if we think Obammy's plan is the cure.

WSS

[osusev]

I call BS. I don't think the cost of oil has such a steep (in)elasticity curve as you may think. Not 4-5 months ago, we were treated with a real-life, honest-to-goodness example of what was artificially inflating the cost of gas at the pump. It sure as shit wasn't the cost of oil. Or the cost of refining said oil.

As soon as the commodities traders ran out of credit to play with, the cost/price of oil (and subsequently gas at the pump) was cut in half. If you're Exxon (or anybody for that matter), you don't get to keep posting a new record profit every quarter because your operating costs are increasing. Come on, buddy.

 

I'd suggest refreshing your own 101 before offering unsolicited 200-level reading advice.

 

 

What was that exactly? You called BS and stated you dont "Think" the cost of oil has such a steep curve...... IT DOES that is why it is a NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE.

 

My response was to Choco because he does not see how energy policy and problems with our middle east operations had a MAJOR impact on our economy and help push us toward a recession.

 

I dont have blinders on, my "notion" is not mine. Have you listened to ANY economist talk about the massive drain on our system Iraq and Afghanistan is causing us and the MASSIVE overhaul of the European Union and U.S. of all regulatory agencies and controls on the securities sector?

 

As for your response reread your exact quote in bold and what my discussion was with Choco.

[Legacy Fan]

As for your response reread your exact quote in bold and what my discussion was with Choco.

 

Nevermind. That alone epitomizes the problem you have with any discussion on here. You did exactly what you are asking me to do:

 

1. Read the 1st sentence of a post only.

2. Hyperventilate.

3. Memory dump.

4. Repeat.

 

 

Awesome.