New Browns Fans Introduce Yourselves

[tml1138]

So.....the argument is semantics?

 

Oh boy...I'll leave it to Gipper.

[The Gipper]

I'm incredibly confused. "Historically" speaking I was sure Art Modell moved the Browns to Baltimore and changed the name of the team. And in 99 Cleveland got a franchise, which is now the Cleveland Browns..... Is that NOT what happened?

Fuck NO, that is NOT what happened. That is why I said that it is an education for you.

 

Like I said, the Browns franchise NEVER moved. It simply went inactive from field play. ..but it continued to operatie right out of the same facility in Berea that is being used today. The franchise never discontinued. The NFL appointed an Trustee to operate it (a guy name Bill Futterer) until certain decisions could be made about it. Those decisions were A. will we reactivate the franchise through an expansion like process....setting out ownership thereof through bids, or B. Will we award the Browns franchise to a current owner and put that current owners current team on inactive status...or discontinue it. The league chose the former, and Al Lerner was the succesful bidder for the ownership of the Cleveland Browns franchise...and the franchise was put on a schedule for on field reactivation...which occurred in 1999.

 

A brand new NFL franchise that became known as the Baltimore Ravens was created, and Modell was granted ownership of that new franchise by the NFL. Certain assets were assigned to that new franchise. Most notably, a couple of dozen player contracts, and the Browns draft positioning. Assigning an asset is not by any means the same as being the same owner.

Its like, if I sold or assigned my assets, say my 1956 Ford Fairlane and my print of Salvador Dali's Hallucinegenic Toreador to you....that does not mean you are now "The Gipper". You are you....and you now the owner of that 1956 Ford Fairlane and a print of the Dali painting, but you didn't assume my identity.

[The Gipper]

 

Gipper will give you the details but the gist...the 1995 TEAM moved to Baltimore, the franchise never left. It suspended operations until a new team was formed and began playing in the 1999 season.

Well, it wasn't really even "The team". Art Modell went....but not even half of the front offics staff went. The GM didn't go. The head coach and all the coaching staff didn't go. Some jock straps and shoulder pads may have gone....but I am not even sure of that. Modell didn't even take his desk. But like I said, some players went (though there was about a 50% if not turnover in personell in that one year.), and the draft positioning...which the Browns could not use due to the inactivity, went.

[The Gipper]

So.....the argument is semantics?

It is by NO means semantics. It was very real, actual legal, factual matters at hand.

 

I mean, I don't think it takes a law degree like I have to understand it, but it was all spelled out in the settlement agreement that was reached in the legal case involving a variety of parties (The Cities of Cleveland and Baltimore, the States of Ohio and Maryland, Modell, the NFL...Cuyahoga County...maybe others).

 

I mean, is it semantics if you get a divorce from your wife? Do you think you are still married to her, that you have just moved your residence? No.

 

I am not sure how to explain this easier in layman's turn.

 

I guess a better analogy is take the owner of a Burger King franchise that owns his burger joint at W. 3rd st., Cleveland, Ohio.

You go to Baltimore, and Burger King gives you a new franchise in Baltimore and you take some pots and pans with you from your other franchise. Well, you now run a new Burger King...but that one on W. 3rd in Cleveland is still there under new management and with renovated facilities, albeit it had to shut down for a while. But it is still the W 3rd St. Burger King.

[Flyin J]

and that burger king on w 3rd inevitably sucked for a while, breaking in a group of bonehead stoners that just dropped out of high school, and find it difficult learning when to flip a fucking burger.

[SCDawg82]

It is by NO means semantics. It was very real, actual legal, factual matters at hand.

 

I mean, I don't think it takes a law degree like I have to understand it, but it was all spelled out in the settlement agreement that was reached in the legal case involving a variety of parties (The Cities of Cleveland and Baltimore, the States of Ohio and Maryland, Modell, the NFL...Cuyahoga County...maybe others).

 

I mean, is it semantics if you get a divorce from your wife? Do you think you are still married to her, that you have just moved your residence? No.

 

I am not sure how to explain this easier in layman's turn.

 

I guess a better analogy is take the owner of a Burger King franchise that owns his burger joint at W. 3rd st., Cleveland, Ohio.

You go to Baltimore, and Burger King gives you a new franchise in Baltimore and you take some pots and pans with you from your other franchise. Well, you now run a new Burger King...but that one on W. 3rd in Cleveland is still there under new management and with renovated facilities, albeit it had to shut down for a while. But it is still the W 3rd St. Burger King.

Great...the original comment was just referring to the time frame. Who stayed behind or the legal issues...whatever. I was a Browns fan b4 WHATEVER HAPPENED HAPPENED. That's all.

[Axe]

I am a Bucs fan first. A Browns fan second.. I root for the Browns until they play the Bucs.. I grew up in NE Ohio.. I'm old enough to remember Brown, Kelly, Ryan, Warfield, Bo Scott, Groza etc etc.. I remember when the Browns were great and the Steelers sucked..

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Well, it wasn't really even "The team". Art Modell went....but not even half of the front offics staff went. The GM didn't go. The head coach and all the coaching staff didn't go. Some jock straps and shoulder pads may have gone....but I am not even sure of that. Modell didn't even take his desk. But like I said, some players went (though there was about a 50% if not turnover in personell in that one year.), and the draft positioning...which the Browns could not use due to the inactivity, went.

 

The "team" actually did go. Whether or not they were asked or wanted to stay there is immaterial.

 

The team went, the franchise stayed. That's all there is to it.

[Johnny Manziel]

I always liked the Browns even when I was a kid and they had Bernie Kosar, Ozzie Newsome,Webster Slaughter, Leroy Hoard, Eric Metcalf and Michael Jackson and even Derek Alexander who I thought was going to be pretty special but then he moved with the old Browns team to become a Raven. I am now a fan because of Johnny Manziel. I have watched every single game of his at A&M starting from his very first start against the Florida Gators. I was very happy that he got drafted to Cleveland because I felt like he was a perfect fit here. It's too bad that Josh Gordon got in trouble again because this took a lot of wind out of the sails.

[The Gipper]

 

The "team" actually did go. Whether or not they were asked or wanted to stay there is immaterial.

 

The team went, the franchise stayed. That's all there is to it.

What constitutes the "team". The "team" known as the Cleveland Browns didn't go. And FYI, all the owners of that "team" didn't go there. Both Bob Gries and Al Lerner were minority owners of the Cleveland Browns at the time. In order for Modell to be able to be given the rights to the Ravens franchise he had to buy out both Gries and Lerner. Modell only owned 53% of the Browns. I believe he ended up owning 100% of the Ravens.So, in reality, even the ownership of the Ravens was NOT the same as the Browns. Obviously we know that the team history/colors/etc. didn't go. The coaches didn't go.

Some of the players went, yes, because they were under contract and their contracts were assigned to the new franchise.

Many didn't. At least one that I know (Steve Everitt) essentially refused to go....and he was either released or traded. A bunch of players were just let go. Sure, enough names went....Vinny and Craig Powell.

Let's just say that some remnants of the team moved....but certainly not the whole team.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

What constitutes the "team". The "team" known as the Cleveland Browns didn't go. And FYI, all the owners of that "team" didn't go there. Both Bob Gries and Al Lerner were minority owners of the Cleveland Browns at the time. In order for Modell to be able to be given the rights to the Ravens franchise he had to buy out both Gries and Lerner. Modell only owned 53% of the Browns. I believe he ended up owning 100% of the Ravens.So, in reality, even the ownership of the Ravens was NOT the same as the Browns. Obviously we know that the team history/colors/etc. didn't go. The coaches didn't go.

Some of the players went, yes, because they were under contract and their contracts were assigned to the new franchise.

Many didn't. At least one that I know (Steve Everitt) essentially refused to go....and he was either released or traded. A bunch of players were just let go. Sure, enough names went....Vinny and Craig Powell.

Let's just say that some remnants of the team moved....but certainly not the whole team.

 

What do you think constitutes a team in this scenario?

 

 

 

Are Jimmy Haslam and Ray Farmer strapping on pads and playing? No. They are part of the "team" in the broadest sense of the definition, but are they practicing during organized TEAM activities? Do they have lockers in the team locker room? No. They're not part of the team. They're management and ownership.

 

The team colors aren't the team. The owners aren't the team. The team history isn't the team. That's part of the franchise.

 

The team is the team. The players on the field. The actual team is the team. You know that, you're just arguing to be a difficult douchebag.

 

All of the players currently under contract were asked to go. Whether some of them refused is immaterial. They were still contractually obligated to go.

 

So, yes...the team went.

 

Stop trying to validate it.

 

The team moved. The franchise stayed. That's literally all there is to it.

 

Get over it already, it happened over a decade ago. Jesus fucking christ.

[AL_BROWNS_FAN]

Slightly off topic, but can anyone explain why Bud Adams was able to take the Oilers and Houston was unable to name the new team "Oilers"? Also I understand that he even kept ownership of the Oilers records from the Luv Ya Blue days - even Earl Campbell's are displayed when no connection with Titans.

[The Gipper]

 

What do you think constitutes a team in this scenario?

 

 

 

Are Jimmy Haslam and Ray Farmer strapping on pads and playing? No. They are part of the "team" in the broadest sense of the definition, but are they practicing during organized TEAM activities? Do they have lockers in the team locker room? No. They're not part of the team. They're management and ownership.

 

The team colors aren't the team. The owners aren't the team. The team history isn't the team. That's part of the franchise.

 

The team is the team. The players on the field. The actual team is the team. You know that, you're just arguing to be a difficult douchebag.

 

No, I am arguing that all those things that you say aren't the team, in fact may be the most durable aspect of a team.

 

All of the players currently under contract were asked to go. Whether some of them refused is immaterial. They were still contractually obligated to go.

 

So, yes...the team went.

 

Stop trying to validate it.

 

Players, to an NFL team are nothing but fungible assets. They are nothing but cornseed. By your defintion then the Browns team of last year has now moved on almost as much as that team back in 1995. The Browns moved to Dallas because Weeden is now in Dallas, or they are in Denver because TJ Ward is in Denver, they moved to wherever DQJackson went...or to wherever Jason Campbell is now, where Sean Lauvao is now (Washington), they are in Indianapolis because that is where Trent Richardson is, Oakland because that is where Greg Little is.

Honestly, players are about as critical to what a "team" is as the dirty laundry bags full of uniforms that the equipment managers haul around. Perhaps that is where the team is: in the laundry hamper. Players are as fungible as those dirty unis.

 

The team moved. The franchise stayed. That's literally all there is to it.

 

Get over it already, it happened over a decade ago. Jesus fucking christ.

 

Well, if you want to fuck Jesus Christ, perhaps you need to be named Mary Magdelene.. All I am doing is setting the historical fact straight for some of the newbie JFF fans we have here. I mean, you wouldn't want them to believe that Texas won the Civil War, would you?

[The Gipper]

Slightly off topic, but can anyone explain why Bud Adams was able to take the Oilers and Houston was unable to name the new team "Oilers"? Also I understand that he even kept ownership of the Oilers records from the Luv Ya Blue days - even Earl Campbell's are displayed when no connection with Titans.

Well, what occurred in Houston is not what occurred in Cleveland. There, the franchise, the team, the history, the colors, everything, the whole lock, stock and barrell were allowed to move, unlike here.

Here, the Cleveland Browns are a continuous franchise going back to their origins in the 1946 season in the AAFC.

The Tennessee Titans franchise however is one continuous franchise going back to the 1960 season in the AFL when they were begun as the Houston Oilers. The Titans/Oilers franchise moved and merely underwent a name change. In fact they used the name Oilers for a couple of years. Here is their team record:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti/

 

Compare that to the Browns:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/

 

Or the Ravens:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/

[AL_BROWNS_FAN]

Did Houston make some error in dealing at the time that prevented them being able to retain history, name, colors or was it not possible? Having trouble seeing why not same outcome.

[The Gipper]

Did Houston make some error in dealing at the time that prevented them being able to retain history, name, colors or was it not possible? Having trouble seeing why not same outcome.

The issue really came down to the fact that the City of Cleveland had a legal hammer over Modell's head that the city of Houston did not have: an ironclad lease. the Browns lease with the City...which owned Muni stadium, mandated that the team play all its home games in Muni stadium for an additional 3 years from the time Modell wanted to move. After Modell announced that he wanted to leave the city sued to bring specific performance of the terms of that least and won. The Browns could NOT move.

But not being able to moving is one thing. But, Modell could have deliberately caused enough mischief in the meantime to make the Browns an untenable NFL operation. (like selling off any decent players, fielding a team made of rookies and street free agents, letting the stadium go to seed....not that he didn't do that already, doing all their traveling via bus rides except to the West coast etc. etc. And he was just a big enough asshole to do those things. The NFL would not allow that and petitioned to intervene in the case...and to mediate a settlement, which they did.)

 

The Oilers lease at the Astrodome on the other hand was up. There was no lease. They could not enjoin a move or require specific performance. And, unlike Cleveland, quite frankly the government and the populace seemed overall apathetic to the prospect of losing the Oilers.

I personally don't like that the Oilers left. I think they should have remained Houston's team, but you get these greedy guys like Modell, Adams, Bidwill, Robert Irsay, Georgia Frontiere, Al Davis. If there are a few more bucks to be made elsewhere, to hell with the loyal fans.

The NFL didn't help so much when they expanded into "new cities" like Charlotte and Jacksonville where there were old time NFL cities wanting one of those expansion teams. The NFL chose Carolina and Jax over bids by St. Louis and Baltimore.

In retrospect, the choice of Jax may not have been a good one. They chose it merely because they like the prospective owner....Wayne Weaver, who was a good guy. But that cities bid I doubt was as good as Baltimore or St. Louis.

The NFL may have thought that the Baltimorons would simply switch allegiance to the Redskins, who, after all, were in their back yard playing in a Maryland suburb. But that didn't really happen.

[AL_BROWNS_FAN]

Thanks for the refresher. I lived in Houston at the time and was a BIG Luv Ya Blue fan, as were almost all Houstonians. I also remember that Bud Adams was a big asshole and alienated a large percentage of the fans with his constant asking for more, more, more. If Houstonians appeared apathetic about the move, that would be the reason. When Adams died last fall, the Houston Chronicle called him (he still lived in Houston) the most hated man in Houston.

[Tour2ma]

Slightly off topic, but can anyone explain why Bud Adams was able to take the Oilers and Houston was unable to name the new team "Oilers"? Also I understand that he even kept ownership of the Oilers records from the Luv Ya Blue days - even Earl Campbell's are displayed when no connection with Titans.

Having suffered the loss of that team as well...

 

As I remember it was "Butt" Adams' choice to change names. Held a contest in TN and everything...

[AL_BROWNS_FAN]

My recollection is that the new Houston franchise requested to use the name Oilers, but Adams refused.

[The Gipper]

Thanks for the refresher. I lived in Houston at the time and was a BIG Luv Ya Blue fan, as were almost all Houstonians. I also remember that Bud Adams was a big asshole and alienated a large percentage of the fans with his constant asking for more, more, more. If Houstonians appeared apathetic about the move, that would be the reason. When Adams died last fall, the Houston Chronicle called him (he still lived in Houston) the most hated man in Houston.

Well, I see to recall that one of Adam's given reasons for moving to Tennessee was that "I love Country Music". I mean, can you not get sufficient country music in Houston? Absurd.

[The Gipper]

OK, so, now Adams is dead. What is going on with the ownership situation there? Are his kids taking over?

 

 

I know that Ralph Wilson's kid are not taking over. The Bills are being sold. But I haven't heard about the Tits.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

 

What do you think constitutes a team in this scenario?

 

 

 

Are Jimmy Haslam and Ray Farmer strapping on pads and playing? No. They are part of the "team" in the broadest sense of the definition, but are they practicing during organized TEAM activities? Do they have lockers in the team locker room? No. They're not part of the team. They're management and ownership.

 

The team colors aren't the team. The owners aren't the team. The team history isn't the team. That's part of the franchise.

 

The team is the team. The players on the field. The actual team is the team. You know that, you're just arguing to be a difficult douchebag.

 

No, I am arguing that all those things that you say aren't the team, in fact may be the most durable aspect of a team.

 

All of the players currently under contract were asked to go. Whether some of them refused is immaterial. They were still contractually obligated to go.

 

So, yes...the team went.

 

Stop trying to validate it.

 

Players, to an NFL team are nothing but fungible assets. They are nothing but cornseed. By your defintion then the Browns team of last year has now moved on almost as much as that team back in 1995. The Browns moved to Dallas because Weeden is now in Dallas, or they are in Denver because TJ Ward is in Denver, they moved to wherever DQJackson went...or to wherever Jason Campbell is now, where Sean Lauvao is now (Washington), they are in Indianapolis because that is where Trent Richardson is, Oakland because that is where Greg Little is.

Honestly, players are about as critical to what a "team" is as the dirty laundry bags full of uniforms that the equipment managers haul around. Perhaps that is where the team is: in the laundry hamper. Players are as fungible as those dirty unis.

 

The team moved. The franchise stayed. That's literally all there is to it.

 

Get over it already, it happened over a decade ago. Jesus fucking christ.

 

Well, if you want to fuck Jesus Christ, perhaps you need to be named Mary Magdelene.. All I am doing is setting the historical fact straight for some of the newbie JFF fans we have here. I mean, you wouldn't want them to believe that Texas won the Civil War, would you?

 

 

The fact is that the team moved and the franchise stayed.

 

That is the fact.

 

Debating semantics just makes it seem like you're trying your best to cover up the fact that it happened or trying to justify it in your own mind.

 

The team, in this scenario, consists of the group of players that take the field. In a team-based sport, this is what is commonly thought of as "the team".

 

They moved. Whether Steve Everitt refused to play or some minority owners refused to go to Baltimore or not doesn't matter. The team of players were contractually obligated to do so, unless they demanded release or had their contracts expire.

 

The franchise, in this scenario representing everything that isn't personnel, stayed in Cleveland. The colors, the history, the name- all of which stayed in Cleveland.

 

 

So, once again, the team left and the franchise stayed.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

 

The fact is that the team moved and the franchise stayed.

 

That is the fact.

 

Debating semantics just makes it seem like you're trying your best to cover up the fact that it happened or trying to justify it in your own mind.

 

The team, in this scenario, consists of the group of players that take the field. In a team-based sport, this is what is commonly thought of as "the team".

 

They moved. Whether Steve Everitt refused to play or some minority owners refused to go to Baltimore or not doesn't matter. The team of players were contractually obligated to do so, unless they demanded release or had their contracts expire.

 

The franchise, in this scenario representing everything that isn't personnel, stayed in Cleveland. The colors, the history, the name- all of which stayed in Cleveland.

 

 

So, once again, the team left and the franchise stayed.

Of course the team left and the franchise stayed. No doubt about it. We had to build a new 'team' from scratch.

[AL_BROWNS_FAN]

I no longer live in Houston and try to avoid the Titans whenever possible, so don't know what's going on with them.

[The Gipper]

 

The fact is that the team moved and the franchise stayed.

 

That is the fact.

 

Debating semantics just makes it seem like you're trying your best to cover up the fact that it happened or trying to justify it in your own mind.

 

The team, in this scenario, consists of the group of players that take the field. In a team-based sport, this is what is commonly thought of as "the team".

 

They moved. Whether Steve Everitt refused to play or some minority owners refused to go to Baltimore or not doesn't matter. The team of players were contractually obligated to do so, unless they demanded release or had their contracts expire.

 

The franchise, in this scenario representing everything that isn't personnel, stayed in Cleveland. The colors, the history, the name- all of which stayed in Cleveland.

 

 

So, once again, the team left and the franchise stayed.

Once again to be absolutely accurate, remnants, some portion, of the team moved. I have won and lost cases or made settlements on matters more semantical that this. As a jurist I have decided cases on matters more semantical than this.

[The Gipper]

Of course the team left and the franchise stayed. No doubt about it. We had to build a new 'team' from scratch.

Perhaps, but that is a different issue on whether the entire "team" moved to Baltimore. TCPO believes the team consists only of the players.....and like I said, then the team we are going to put on the field this fall must not be the Cleveland Browns. Lots and lots and lots of the players on last years roster....last year's "team" are no longer here, so this next year the team must not be the Cleveland Browns....so what are they, The Cleveland Ecrus?

 

And yea, tell us about how much the players are "the team". Tell that to player Elhadji Ndiaye, signed Thursday, cut yesterday.

Anthony Dima, signed last Tuesday, Cut yesterday. About 3 or 4 other "team members" had that distinction of being "the team known as the Cleveland Browns"....for about a week.

 

Cornseed.

[Tour2ma]

Is the horse dead yet?

 

I mean, can you not get sufficient country music in Houston? Absurd.

Not since Gilley's burned down.. (arson was never proved)

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Perhaps, but that is a different issue on whether the entire "team" moved to Baltimore. TCPO believes the team consists only of the players.....and like I said, then the team we are going to put on the field this fall must not be the Cleveland Browns. Lots and lots and lots of the players on last years roster....last year's "team" are no longer here, so this next year the team must not be the Cleveland Browns....so what are they, The Cleveland Ecrus?

 

And yea, tell us about how much the players are "the team". Tell that to player Elhadji Ndiaye, signed Thursday, cut yesterday.

Anthony Dima, signed last Tuesday, Cut yesterday. About 3 or 4 other "team members" had that distinction of being "the team known as the Cleveland Browns"....for about a week.

 

Cornseed.

 

No, they will be the Browns. They will be the 2014 Cleveland Browns, composed of some of the 2013 Cleveland Browns. Just as the 1996 Ravens were composed of some of the 1995 Cleveland Browns.

 

Being a judge makes you no less wrong, it just means you're good at nitpicking. You're debating something for no reason other than to debate it, like you always do.

[The Cysko Kid]

 

Well why i was asking about the word organized. Browns have the most clubs. My original point was about dealing with popularity which clearly the Cowboys are #1. A number of polls prove that point while Browns are down in the 20s. Regardless, at the end of the day i would trade a Super Bowl trophy over popularity.

 

Polls:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8295decd/article/poll-finds-cowboys-to-be-nfls-most-popular-team

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2013/10/16/Research-and-Ratings/Harris-Poll.aspx

Tiny Canadian Pussy Douche is more popular than the Beatles so you know put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[PoeticG]

Welcome to thunder dome bitch

 

http://thunderblogsports.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/cleveland-to-baltimore.jpg

Haha!