estrago Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 By JIM INGRAHAM jingraham@MorningJournal.com IT'S bad enough that the Browns are bad. But it's who is good that makes it even worse. The Steelers, who seem to go to the Super Bowl about as often as the Browns change coaches, have done it again. Not just gone to the Super Bowl, but won it. Again. Won it with a linebacker from Kent State scoring a touchdown on a 100-yard interception return. Won it with a quarterback from Miami of Ohio throwing the game winning touchdown pass to a receiver from Ohio State. Why doesn't Dan Rooney just hire some roving bands of steelworkers to invade Cleveland with a bunch of sharp sticks and poke each and every Browns fan in the eye? I mean, really. Can it get any worse than this? While Browns fans are still trying to figure out the proper pronunciation of "Kokinis'' — and whether it's even worth the trouble — there was a parade in downtown Pittsburgh Tuesday that was expected to draw upwards of a quarter of a million people. Hint: it wasn't for the unveiling of a new ketchup bottle. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention one other thing, not that you needed reminding. The team the Steelers beat to GET to the Super Bowl was the Browns. No, not these Browns, THOSE Browns. The old Browns. The former Browns. The Browns team that was hijacked out of Cleveland, whereupon the city had to wait three empty years for. . . for. . . THESE Browns. Other than that, how do you like the decade so far? All of which raises the question: When exactly will Browns fans stop buying tickets? How long do these Browns have to be this bad before people say "that's enough this'' and stay home? When the Indians finished their run of division titles after 2001 and began to rebuild, the automatic sellouts at then-Jacobs Field instantly disappeared. Home attendance went from 3.1 million in 2001 to 2.6 in 2002 to 1.7 in 2003. The year before LeBron James fell into their lap the Cavs were last in the NBA in attendance. Since James arrived and the team got good, the Cavs have, in successive years finished 29th, 9th, 6th, 5th, 3rd, and 3rd in the NBA in attendance. In other words, in baseball and basketball, Cleveland fans behave the way most fans behave. They show up when the team is good and they don't when the team is bad. But not in football. Browns fans show up religiously for every home game, no matter how bad the team is. From this we can draw only one of two conclusions: Browns fans are either incredibly loyal or hopelessly foolish. In the last 16 years the Browns have had losing records in 13 of them. In 10 of those 16 years the Browns have lost 10 or more games. Yet in none of those 16 years have the fans stopped coming. It's been sellout after sellout after sellout. Like the swallows returning to Capistrano. Is tailgating really THAT much fun? That's got to be it, right? It can't be the football. For the most part the football has ranged from bad to inept to unwatchable. Yet it's sellout after sellout after sellout. In what other business could a company consistently provide its customers with such an inferior product and still be assured that the customers would continue buying it, year after year after year? We should all be so lucky as to own a company such as that. All of which is not to question the sanity of Browns fans. I mean it's not like they have a choice. You live in Cleveland? You like NFL football? Well, here's your team. Take it or leave it. Browns fans take it, and hope for the best. Meanwhile, the team they USED to have was the second best team in the AFC this year. And the team they USED to beat — all right, you have to go back to the 1960s to prove it — are the Super Bowl champs. Again. Where's the breaking point? When does the honeymoon end? When do the Browns reach the point where they are so bad for so long that their fans eventually lose interest and wander off in search of other activities on Sunday afternoons in the fall? We may find out next season. Given the economy, given the more appealing products at Quicken Loans Arena and Progressive Field, given the Browns' long run of failure, and given, in particular, the organization's embarrassing performance over the last 12 months, will 2009 be the year when Browns fans stop writing checks and finally say "no mas''? You couldn't blame them if they do. Or you could admire them if they don't. Comments The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the view of morningjournal.com. amtechs wrote on Feb 4, 2009 10:25 AM: " After 25 years of being a Browns fan, I am at the closest I have ever been to calling it quits. I am tired of the years of mismanagement, the years of bad decisions, the bad players, and most importantly the arrogant Pittsburgh fans reminding me how much of a fool I am. I won't buy another ticket to a game until they show me that my years of loyalty wasn't a joke. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estrago Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Where's the breaking point? When does the honeymoon end? When do the Browns reach the point where they are so bad for so long that their fans eventually lose interest and wander off in search of other activities on Sunday afternoons in the fall? That is what I mean about making ownership accountable !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I will spend my money where I want. I live in Tennessee and have season tickets. I will be sending in my money for another year thank-you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pl4tinum Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 At first I thought this article was going to suck. But it turned out to be pretty good. Thank you for posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allaneddie Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 It's football, and most of the US of A loves football. Cleveland loves football. Hope springs eternal with each preseason. There is some fun in going to the games. There are only 8 of these games a year spanning a 4 month period. There are plenty of weekends to do other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estrago Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 At first I thought this article was going to suck. But it turned out to be pretty good. Thank you for posting it. You're Welcome but I made a post last night quoting Bernie praising the Steelers and mentioned the hate and envy...and it got deleted because a mod didnt like it Wonder if this post will last or if it makes them mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Eater Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 rather pointless, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffer X Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 These Puke fans are trying to get us to abandon our team just like they would if they sucked. This is the bandwagon mentality we refer to Pitt fans as, so thanks for the confirmation numbnuts all posting in fruity big and bold font. My god Steeler fans are some punkasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estrago Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 It's football, and most of the US of A loves football. Cleveland loves football. Hope springs eternal with each preseason. There is some fun in going to the games. There are only 8 of these games a year spanning a 4 month period. There are plenty of weekends to do other things. Only fun game last year was the Mon game vs the Giants. Loves football...sure...love bad football...how much much can you take. The Cincy game was fun eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Eater Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Is there a point to this nonsense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTBH Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Estrago, you think you're knocking Browns fans for being "stupid" and "liking" losing football. You're only proving everything we already knew. Steeler "fans" are frontrunners and couldn't care less about their teams when they lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estrago Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Estrago, you think you're knocking Browns fans for being "stupid" and "liking" losing football. You're only proving everything we already knew. Steeler "fans" are frontrunners and couldn't care less about their teams when they lose. Did I write that article..and who said I am a Steeler fan? The writer made a point about theTribe and Cavs and how fans behaved accordingly. Like he said, how much more can one take? Nothing was mentioned about frontrunners and not caring....only YOU did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffer X Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Did I write that article..and who said I am a Steeler fan? The writer made a point about theTribe and Cavs and how fans behaved accordingly. Like he said, how much more can one take? Nothing was mentioned about frontrunners and not caring....only YOU did! Guess you can't go tell all your buddies how us fans are so beaten down that you even got us to stop caring. Your pretense is charming, but you're a serious tool and typical Yinzer. The best fair weather fans in football, the Pittsburgh Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 You're Welcome but I made a post last night quoting Bernie praising the Steelers and mentioned the hate and envy...and it got deleted because a mod didnt like it Wonder if this post will last or if it makes them mad As a mod, right now I'm in no mood to hear anything about the Steelers. Steeler trolls that comes over here to gloat will get deleted the second I find their posts. I'm with Ballpeen- I live 220 miles from Cleveland, I could easily start rooting for the Colts, but I'll send in my $$ for another batch of season tickets come May. (No increase in prices, I'll wager.) What you folks who don't have season ticket fail to realize, you give up your PSLs- unless you happen to be a millionaire, you've just kissed decent seating at Browns games away forever. We're up to 26 years of ticket seniority- should the Browns ever make the Super Bowl, we may be in line to score tickets for the big game at face value. Should I toss that away too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estrago Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I live 220 miles from Cleveland, I could easily start rooting for the Colts, but I'll send in my $$ for another batch of season tickets come May. (No increase in prices, I'll wager.) What you folks who don't have season ticket fail to realize, you give up your PSLs- unless you happen to be a millionaire, you've just kissed decent seating at Browns games away forever. We're up to 26 years of ticket seniority- should the Browns ever make the Super Bowl, we may be in line to score tickets for the big game at face value. Should I toss that away too? Thats the point of the article...how much more can you take and is it worth it? I will tell you one thing....if the Browns would ever make it to the Super Bowl, you have a very slim chance for tickets at face value. As per the PSLs, myself, Iwould not worry about it.If the Browns becaome a Super Bowl contender, you can always gets tickets(maybe not at face) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 My experience is people who start calling for people to boycott games are either trolls, or semi- fans who don't go to games anyway. If you don't want to games.....don't go. Kind of like fans who don't go to games and tell me how to cheer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtownBrownsBacker Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 As a mod, right now I'm in no mood to hear anything about the Steelers. Steeler trolls that comes over here to gloat will get deleted the second I find their posts. I'm with Ballpeen- I live 220 miles from Cleveland, I could easily start rooting for the Colts, but I'll send in my $$ for another batch of season tickets come May. (No increase in prices, I'll wager.) What you folks who don't have season ticket fail to realize, you give up your PSLs- unless you happen to be a millionaire, you've just kissed decent seating at Browns games away forever. We're up to 26 years of ticket seniority- should the Browns ever make the Super Bowl, we may be in line to score tickets for the big game at face value. Should I toss that away too? Thank you for taking out the trash................................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffer X Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Estrago reminds me an awful lot of Stone, a guy who just couldn't get enough of this place. Remember, he's just here to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c-dawg Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I think it can get a lot worse than this...see this year's Detroit Lions and Vick's Atlanta Falcons. I can't condone second-guessing our fans for attending the games. I live too far away myself and would LOVE the chance to pay my $ and boo or cheer as needed regardless. Plus our stadium is an awesome place to hang. Can it get any worse though? How about NOT HAVING A TEAM?! That was the freaking worst!! At least we are back in the game and in our colors. We've been in a tough spot with our division rivals winning 3 out of the last 9 super bowls. I really don't care about that anymore. Good for them, they are still losers that are simply warming up the throne for us...they just don't know or believe it yet. Also, our 10-6 year was pretty darn cool, if short-lived. We have a critical mass of talent that can be improved upon. Our coaching changes nearly guarantee better coaching for the upcoming year. I'll turn it around...HOW MUCH BETTER CAN WE GET? LOTS!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
next2nothing Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I've been a die-hard Browns fan since I was a kid and I'm not gonna jump ship just because my team has been in the cellar for a while. You can call us Browns fans foolish/stupid/idiotic, etc. But I think we show the NFL what TRUE FANS are, someone who sticks with their team through the good times AND the bad times, even if the bad times seem to never end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estrago Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I think it can get a lot worse than this...see this year's Detroit Lions and Vick's Atlanta Falcons. 0-16 or no team? hmmmmm...at least when the Browns were gone there was no moaning on Monday morning but there was no chance to win either. Look I dont expect the Stadium to be empty if the Browns play like they have for 8 of the past 10 years but to just blindly and emotionaly keep going & supporting that if it continues is not right either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ATENEARS Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Estrago reminds me an awful lot of Stone, a guy who just couldn't get enough of this place. Remember, he's just here to help. Thanks for reminding me that Estrago is just here to help ... sometimes I forget where I even shit last and I have to call my Mom and ask her. I don't know what I'd do without all you fine people in my life. Hey Estrago, anymore cool articles about how if we changed the teams colors that our colors would be different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownsFan17 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 0-16 or no team? hmmmmm...at least when the Browns were gone there was no moaning on Monday morning but there was no chance to win either. For you to make a comment like that not only proves that you are not nor have you ever been a Browns fan but it also proves that you are a fairweather fan that would bail on their team at the first sign of trouble. How pathetic. Go away. You are not worthy of our company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c-dawg Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 0-16 or no team? hmmmmm...at least when the Browns were gone there was no moaning on Monday morning but there was no chance to win either. Look I dont expect the Stadium to be empty if the Browns play like they have for 8 of the past 10 years but to just blindly and emotionaly keep going & supporting that if it continues is not right either. Sorry E, but I MOANED every Sunday AND Monday we didn't field a team FOR YEARS. There is no "at least" EXCEPT "at least we have a team." I get your perspective, we are enablers. Damn straight! If anyone wants to sell their season tickets I'll gladly buy them and drive the six hours to the game and wear a jersey with ESTRAGO on the back in your honor! Win or lose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gips Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Pitt fans enjoy the slow roasting goodness of long suffering diehard browns fans they know we wont abandon our browns no more then the will abandon shittsburg when they finally go down the crapper...its all in good fun to them and honestly we would be doing the same thing to them if their team sucked as bad as ours.. Puke fans are somewhat annoying during the season but entertaining in the off season since our off season always starts immediately after game 16... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. T Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Do you need some cheese with your whine? The only good point you made was that the steelers needed guys fromOhio to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Thats the point of the article...how much more can you take and is it worth it? I will tell you one thing....if the Browns would ever make it to the Super Bowl, you have a very slim chance for tickets at face value. As per the PSLs, myself, I would not worry about it.If the Browns became a Super Bowl contender, you can always gets tickets(maybe not at face) You're bordering on trolldom. You really think guys that have plunked down money on season tickets for 25+ years are going to shit-can them? Doesn't even factor into the equation if it's "worth it". The corporate types up in the Club level spend $5k a year- or way more- on seats, and don't even bother to show up 1\2 the time. Even after 10 years of crap Browns football, field level PSL seat upgrades that aren't on E-Bay at an exorbitant price are impossible to find. We've been trying the "official" route for the last 5 years, FYI. BTW, the participating teams in the Super Bowl get about 12,000 seats per game. I'd say we're now in the top 10% in seniority. Unless you want to tell me the club is going to take 1\2 of those seats for perks, I like my odds. You ever checked the price of Super Bowl tickets on Stubhub? It's beyond the means of all but the very richest fans- unless you want to take out a second mortgage on the house to go. I thought I had a cheap out a few years back, because I have a good friend in Detroit that could let me stay at his house. Just to get into the nosebleeds at Ford Field were $2,000 apiece, and they went up-way up from there. That's why you see the plethora of movie stars and magnates at the SB- they're the only folks who can afford those tickets on the secondary market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshutchins Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Even after 10 years of crap Browns football, field level PSL seat upgrades that aren't on E-Bay at an exorbitant price are impossible to find. We've been trying the "official" route for the last 5 years, FYI. I have seats on the north side upper deck. I've been trying to move UP a few rows and can't get an "up"grade. Since I live in South Carolina, I sell my tickets to any games my family doesn't attend. This year it was easier than ever to find a buyer. The only thing I can figure out is that when the Browns are playing well, people will pay more for better seats. When the team sucks, the cheap seats are just fine, thank you very much. Curiously, I couldn't find buyers for the night games, when the Browns seemed to perform at their best. Apparently Browns fans also value their sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenby73 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 ahhhh..... the sweet sounds of loyal browns fans ripping an unsuspecting poster a new one! cheese n gravy guys, it was just a question, and outside of this "kennel of maniacal of mutts" it is a legitimate question. But you see Estrago, that's the problem. You walked into "Ground Zero" for rabid dawg fans.... while many of us are still licking our wounds from watching the squealers win yet another ring. Thanks by the way Santonio... Ur Buckeye status is not exactly helping you while I torture you with a thousand deaths in my head. However, I think you got your answer, from this demographic anyway. Being a Browns fan, alas, one who has received his rabies shot.... when I discovered that someone could take my team away from me I have to admit I took that kick to the ribs pretty damn hard. The NFL is a business, and unfortunately my fandom has been slightly altered by that fact. I am a browns fan. Will always be. It's Browns or nothing. Now, do I qualify as one of the die hard fans that you find on this board? Probably not. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me", right? I love the Browns, last year went to every game. Year before, went to 6 of them. Year before.... memory gets hazy.... short stint in county, so I know I missed the game that weekend...... we'll say I made 5 or 6. That being said, I do have, sort of an "emotional detachment".... I refuse to allow myself to get completely wrapped up in the browns again as I once was. I love the browns. I live for sundays in the fall. I love tailgating and thanks to good friends and good "spirits" I always enjoy myself even if the game turns out to be atrocious. While I love the Browns, I know the love is not reciprocated. I am a fan, a number, a pocketbook. If I don't buy that ticket, someone else will and life goes on. Players come, players go. Coaches come and go. I know an owner I wouldn't mind seeing go.... off topic. It's a defense mechanism. You can thank my ex-wife for that! I love the Browns, to the best of my ability. But if tomorrow the team moved, I wouldn't blink twice. If I was completely devastated, I would only have myself to blame because I allowed it to happen a second time. Short story long Estrago.... I am more of the demographic you are looking for to ask your question to and here is your answer.... I'm not sure when enough is enough. I know there is such a thing, I just don't know where it is exactly. I know this, December was pretty damn cold. The Browns were in the toilet. I was staring at a lot of orange in the stands..... wait, that was the stands. The traffic was nice and light after the steeler game. That was refreshing. I remember we got back to Akron at 5:10 after the steeler game.... I couldn't believe it! It was like having an 8th day of the week! Normally I'm not back until 8, or with all the night games we had this year it's 3 in the morning. A sunday night.... and I could do anything with it. What a weird experience. Will I go to the games next year? Yes. Here's why..... as disappointed as I may be right now.... 6 months is a long time to go without football. New coach. A draft. New free agent or two. No Willie Mcginest...... as calm as I am right now, I will be nearly unbearable once preseason starts. In July, I will once again fight with my friends as we attempt to peacefully (yet unsuccessfully) decide who gets the steeler game this year. On draft day, I will consume more chips and wings than I would have in the preceding 6 months combined. In a way Estrago, I've all ready reached my breaking point. I love the Browns. I go to the games. I buy the family night tickets. My daughter is a jr club member.... but if the season goes in the tank.... I'll be disappointed but my life won't change. It's that blasted mindset. When the Browns left, the game changed for me. It's entertainment for me an escape from this wretched thing we call an existence. It's something to look forward to. It's something to get me past Monday, not life. Will I ever enjoy the elite ranks of those that bleed brown and orange? My complete honesty will render me ineligible for those perks. I'm okay with that. My enjoyment is not hinged on someone else's acceptance of me. I like this board because it's informative, educational (where else could I see many of the wonderful cheerleaders other teams have?) and a great stress release. My enjoyment stems from one thing and one thing only.... beating those f***ing steelers. Go Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estrago Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 BTW, the participating teams in the Super Bowl get about 12,000 seats per game. I'd say we're now in the top 10% in seniority. Unless you want to tell me the club is going to take 1\2 of those seats for perks, I like my odds. You ever checked the price of Super Bowl tickets on Stubhub? It's beyond the means of all but the very richest fans- unless you want to take out a second mortgage on the house to go. I thought I had a cheap out a few years back, because I have a good friend in Detroit that could let me stay at his house. Just to get into the nosebleeds at Ford Field were $2,000 apiece, and they went up-way up from there. That's why you see the plethora of movie stars and magnates at the SB- they're the only folks who can afford those tickets on the secondary market. SB ticket distribution AFC Champion - 17.5 percent NFC Champion - 17.5 percent Host Team (Dolphins) - 5.0 percent Other 29 Teams - 34.8 percent NFL - 25.2 percent There is no seniority....the teams do it by lottery but if you think it is a fair lottery, dream on. Your odds are slim unless you own a box or suite. The 80/20 rule works here. (20% of your clients produce 80% of your revenue)Unless you are one of the coorportations or businesses or the 20% you have about a 10% chance or less to get tix. The players, coaches, administration, politicians and whoever is connected with ownership will get the tickets. My brother in law is next door neighbors with former Brown Kevin Johnson(lives in New Jesey)and he told him about the way it works and it makes sense. All NFL players/coaches get 2 tickets. Your best chance is if you know a player or an insider. I hope you learned something and can forget about your pipe dreams and long shot odds of getting SB tickets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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