"It's a passing league"

[J0hnnybg00d]

Lol at all the self proclaimed football geniuses... its like the end of the world when someone disagees with them. Its a fans forum or am i wrong? Start your own and weed out the regular fans with Retarded questions that only geniuses would know and then you guys can sit and stroke each others egos allday.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I didn't which is why I didn't comment either way. If someone knows it to be true or read it somewhere I would like to know. Your credentials are solid. I would acknowledge you are more plugged into the technical side of football than myself. So tell me TCPO

 

1) How do you compare Manziel to Hoyer

 

2) Do you believe Manziel is a better pick than Bortles?

I think Manziel and Hoyer are similar in stature, Hoyer is an inch to an inch and a half taller, and 8-10 pounds heavier. They're comparable in size and stature. I would expect Manziel's playing height to be between 6'0 and 6'1 and his playing weight to be between 210 and 215.

 

I haven't fully analyzed enough tape on Manziel to make a judgment but from what I've seen so far, he has slightly above average arm talent and has the ability to push the ball down the field. His mechanics and footwork aren't ideal. Basically, he just plays backyard football. He's not technically proficient, he's not a student of the game, he's not a football genius, but he has tremendous instincts, amazing mobility, and an NFL caliber arm.

 

I honestly can't pick between Bortles and Manziel. I've been on the Bortles bandwagon since the beginning of the year and have the posts here to prove it, but Manziel and Bortles are two startlingly different quarterbacks. Without an OC, it's hard to determine who would be the best quarterback for us. In a McDaniels/Belichick style of the Erhardt-Perkins spread offense, I would rather have Manziel. In an Bruce Arians style, motion-heavy spread attack, I would rather have Bortles.

 

It just depends on who we hire.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Lol at all the self proclaimed football geniuses... its like the end of the world when someone disagees with them. Its a fans forum or am i wrong? Start your own and weed out the regular fans with Retarded questions that only geniuses would know and then you guys can sit and stroke each others egos allday.

 

"Lol" at the idiots who are butthurt because their opinions are shit and their reputations even shittier.

[J0hnnybg00d]

 

"Lol" at the idiots who are butthurt because their opinions are shit and their reputations even shittier.

 

 

We can't all have a blog with 9 followers...

 

reputation lol on the internet even

[J0hnnybg00d]

Add me to the list of replies you skip please.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

  

 

We can't all have a blog with 9 followers...

 

reputation lol on the internet even

The one I stated a month ago that has over 10,000 views? Or the other website I write for that has 10x as many views? With the opinions you've posted on here, I'm sure you couldn't.

 

Don't worry, outside of this response you opinion means absolutely nothing to me or anyone else here. You'll fade out in another month or two just like the rest of the useless idiots who want us to trade for Tom Brady and sign Bill Cowher as HC.

 

I'm sure you're amazing at Madden, though, so congratulations.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

TCPO, I have to agree. And when I can't come to a conclusion on something, personally I do none of the above. If the draft was tommorrow, I think taking Watkins would be the smart thing to do. However, their is a lot of info that hasn't been processed yet. Between now and May will help sort more of this out.

The problem I have with that reasoning is that Watkins is equally as much of a question mark as Manziel. Take Tajh Boyd for example, he played on the same Clemson team against the same relatively weak talent year in and year out and he's proving that he's not nearly as high quality of a talent as people expected to be.

 

I think Watkins will have a solid career, depending on where he ends up, but he's not some sort of can't miss once in a lifetime talent. If anyone in this draft is a can't miss talent, it would be Clowney, and I have my reservations on him too.

 

This would be the year to make a play for a franchise QB. We have the playmakers for him to rely on and a solid enough offensive line for him to be protected. Regardless of what people want to claim, the offensive line finished 17th in the league in pass protection power rankings. Hardly the best, I'll agree, but it's not the same situation as Tim Couch, either.

 

From a cost-benefit standpoint, a QB would improve this team much more than a #2 WR would.

 

If he fails, Hoyer is still on the roster.

[hoorta]

 

Faster, Quicker in the QB position means nothing in the NFL. More accurate and arm strength is very debatable. College stats and performance means absolutely NOTHING in the NFL. He played behind one of the best Oline in College and also with one probably the most physical WR in college. He also plays in a spread offense that only requires him to make ONE read. There's going to be a big learning curve for this kid and i think his escape is going to be 'scrambling', taking off and running when he shouldn't.

 

I was going to compare Manziel to Michael Vick, who I consider the #1 rushing qb of all time- except he isn't. That honor still belongs to Randall Cunningham. Yeah there's a couple HOFers in the top 10 qb rushing club- most notably Steve Young & John Elway- but there's a lot of underachievers there too. Manziels style is no where near those previously mentioned .

 

I can tell you've never seen Texas A&M play...

 

Yes, I have. Manziel's style is if his primary read isn't open, he runs around with reckless (more on that in a second) abandon scrambling until someone does break open, or takes off with his feet. The way he plants and twists to avoid pressure or hits is an open invitation for an opposing NFL linebacker to blow his knee out. Refer to MasterDog's clip if you don't believe me.

 

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2014/1/9/5292616/johnny-manziel-nfl-draft?utm_source=sbnation&utm_medium=nextclicks&utm_campaign=articlebottom

 

This article is pretty much what all the Manziel folks want to see...

But it's EXACTLY what will not work in the NFL.

 

The first GIF was a good example. There was NO ONE near him. He didn't need to dance around, in the NFL he will NOT have that much time.

The 2nd Gif the writer wanted us to see. He took off but his head never looked beyond the first read. Number 38 on the defense did not attack him. I'm pretty sure he would had easily gotten caught on that run at the pro-level.

 

Again, everything is about running around and 'improvising', you can improvise when you take snap behind one of the BEST Offensive lines in college. In the NFL you have best 3 seconds....

 

 

I think Manziel and Hoyer are similar in stature, Hoyer is an inch to an inch and a half taller, and 8-10 pounds heavier. They're comparable in size and stature. I would expect Manziel's playing height to be between 6'0 and 6'1 and his playing weight to be between 210 and 215.

 

I haven't fully analyzed enough tape on Manziel to make a judgment but from what I've seen so far, he has slightly above average arm talent and has the ability to push the ball down the field. His mechanics and footwork aren't ideal. Basically, he just plays backyard football. He's not technically proficient, he's not a student of the game, he's not a football genius, but he has tremendous instincts, amazing mobility, and an NFL caliber arm.

 

I honestly can't pick between Bortles and Manziel. I've been on the Bortles bandwagon since the beginning of the year and have the posts here to prove it, but Manziel and Bortles are two startlingly different quarterbacks. Without an OC, it's hard to determine who would be the best quarterback for us. In a McDaniels/Belichick style of the Erhardt-Perkins spread offense, I would rather have Manziel. In an Bruce Arians style, motion-heavy spread attack, I would rather have Bortles.

 

It just depends on who we hire.

 

Sandlot football doesn't work in the NFL TC- and you should know that. If Pettine wants smash mouth football- Johnny be Not So good isn't someone he's going to want. Look at the really great ones, Peyton, Brady, Brees. They decipher the defense, figure out who's likely to be open and get the ball to them quickly and on target, not scramble around like a.nut trying to make plays with your legs & maybe your arm. Probably the closest analogy in the NFL to Johnny Football is Kaepenic or Newton- but they're both way bigger, have better (IMHO) accuracy on the run, and when they scramble, it's in a far more controlled fashion. Honestly, my personal opinion I'd put Manziel as a top of second round talent. Top 5? He's nowhere near RGIII good pre-draft.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

I was going to compare Manziel to Michael Vick, who I consider the #1 rushing qb of all time- except he isn't. That honor still belongs to Randall Cunningham. Yeah there's a couple HOFers in the top 10 qb rushing club- most notably Steve Young & John Elway- but there's a lot of underachievers there too. Manziels style is no where near those previously mentioned .

 

 

Yes, I have. Manziel's style is if his primary read isn't open, he runs around with reckless (more on that in a second) abandon scrambling until someone does break open, or takes off with his feet. The way he plants and twists to avoid pressure or hits is an open invitation for an opposing NFL linebacker to blow his knee out. Refer to MasterDog's clip if you don't

 

 

Sandlot football doesn't work in the NFL TC- and you should know that. If Pettine wants smash mouth football- Johnny be Not So good isn't someone he's going to want. Look at the really great ones, Peyton, Brady, Brees. They decipher the defense, figure out who's likely to be open and get the ball to them quickly and on target, not scramble around like a.nut trying to make plays with your legs & maybe your arm. Probably the closest analogy in the NFL to Johnny Football is Kaepenic or Newton- but they're both way bigger, have better (IMHO) accuracy on the run, and when they scramble, it's in a far more controlled fashion. Honestly, my personal opinion I'd put Manziel as a top of second round talent. Top 5? He's nowhere near RGIII good pre-draft.

His mobility and scrambling style have absolutely nothing to do with his ability to read defenses or make decisions. Manziel was careful with his passes and shows natural accuracy.

 

 

If you don't like the kid, that's fine. But call a spade a spade and just say you think he's an asshole. Don't try and thinly veil it behind a bad and frankly, wrong, scouting report.

 

Calling him a second rounder is absurd. Johnny Manziel, on the field, is a top 15 pick in any draft in the last 10 years. If Christian Ponder, EJ Manuel, and Brady Quinn can go in the first, there's no fucking way in the world Manziel couldn't.

[hoorta]

His mobility and scrambling style have absolutely nothing to do with his ability to read defenses or make decisions. Manziel was careful with his passes and shows natural accuracy.

 

 

If you don't like the kid, that's fine. But call a spade a spade and just say you think he's an asshole. Don't try and thinly veil it behind a bad and frankly, wrong, scouting report.

 

Calling him a second rounder is absurd. Johnny Manziel, on the field, is a top 15 pick in any draft in the last 10 years. If Christian Ponder, EJ Manuel, and Brady Quinn can go in the first, there's no fucking way in the world Manziel couldn't.

 

BS. They have everything to do with his ability to make quick multiple checkdown reads, and potential injury risk. So why are virtually every one of Football's highlight reels the result of a scramble or roll out? You're seriously over-rating Manziel. And I'll stand my ground- just like I did telling Shep he was full of shit pimping Quinn. There are scouts that do have him as a top second rounder. The reports having him as the highest bust\reward potential are legion- and I'm taking bust\injury off field asshole risk, thank you very much.

 

Thank God Haslam pretty much called the "Manziel at any cost" rumor for what it is- a rumor. I wouldn't even have put it past Weasel Banner to have started it, just to see how Browns fans would react. This fan will puke.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

You're seriously over-rating Manziel. And I'll stand my ground- just like I did telling Shep he was full of shit pimping Quinn. There are scouts that do have him as a top second rounder. The reports having him as the highest bust\reward potential are legion- and I'm taking bust\injury off field asshole risk, thank you very much.

 

Thank God Haslam pretty much called the "Manziel at any cost" rumor for what it is- a rumor. I wouldn't even have put it past Weasel Banner to have started it, just to see how Browns fans would react. This fan will puke.

I'm not. You're seriously putting too much emphasis on the fact that you don't like that he's not 6'5, 230 and a pocket passer. He faced top defenses week in and week out and put up spectacular numbers.

 

I'm not a Manziel fan, but I can understand the hype. It's not like Carr, who put up gaudy numbers against weak talent every week. He played quality SEC opponents. He threw for 5 touchdowns against the top ranked defense in the country and then another 4 touchdowns against a 19th ranked Vandy defense. He plays tough teams and puts up great numbers.

 

There are scouts that have him in the second round, you're right. There are also many more scouts, most of which with a much better reputation, that have Manziel exactly where he'll be drafted- in the top half of the first round.

 

 

The fact that you don't like his "scrambling style" is duly noted, but ultimately means nothing. I can understand the fear of injury, but anything can happen. A CB tore his ACL in the Senior Bowl in a non contact injury. In 1989, National League MVP Kevin Mitchell pulled a muscle while puking after getting food poisoning and missed time. Jaret Holmes burned himself with fondue. Lionel Letizi pulled a back muscle reaching for a Scrabble tile.

 

Point is, shit can happen anywhere, anytime, especially in the NFL. The fear of injury is justified but not a reason to stand pat. As my dad always told me, you'll never hit a homerun if you're too scared to take the bat off your shoulders.

 

If we get an OC that favors a fast-paced, spread option, quick fire offense and likes to move the pocket, then Manziel would be great. If we get an OC that wants to go I-Form, pound the rock, play action pass, Bortles would be fantastic. If we get an OC that wants us to throw screens 75% of the time, Carr would be the pick. As long as our QB is put in the best scheme for him to win, I'm happy. But hating on Manziel over trivial matters is just dumb.

[J0hnnybg00d]

The one I stated a month ago that has over 10,000 views? Or the other website I write for that has 10x as many views? With the opinions you've posted on here, I'm sure you couldn't.

 

Don't worry, outside of this response you opinion means absolutely nothing to me or anyone else here. You'll fade out in another month or two just like the rest of the useless idiots who want us to trade for Tom Brady and sign Bill Cowher as HC.

 

I'm sure you're amazing at Madden, though, so congratulations.

10,000 views and 9 followers... you do know i could make a twerking video and get more than that. Of course my replies mean nothing to anyone, it's an intenet forum and neither does yours. I think you're delusional about what happens in a public forum. I seen you call someone a fat judge whose post won't help the team win... lol. Guess what, your post or no one else's can help the team. You act as if the front office comes here for help from the fans in making a decision. I am amazing at madden though so ty for the grats.

[miktoxic]

i just hope the FO consults with our new head coach and can calm this first pick QB frenzy down.

 

even if you were an offensive minded coach and the new lawrence taylor was sitting there @4 for someone to pick up, you wouldn't make that pick?

 

the need for a QB THIS year is not as great as everyone is making it out to be. what happened to hoyer? now he's just a piece of garbage? at least we KNOW he can play in the NFL and who knows what would have happened last year if he didn't injure HIMSELF.

 

if i was pettine and the FO actually listened to me i'd be salivating with all the picks we have. you could literally finish off the defense with 3 solid picks.

 

i could see picking up a QB to sit and learn for a couple of years (mettenberger, who also has an off-field past btw) but i see bust with all these kiper hyped QBs....maybe not bridgewater, but man the dude is just a stick waiting to be snapped.

 

and can everyone get off manziel's jock? all i envision with him is scrambling to the sidelines and throwing the ball out of bounds ten times a game. hey maybe i'm wrong. maybe he'll be great. i just think the dude is a complete dick. and i don't like dicks.

[calfoxwc]

Whoever the Browns pick in the first round, as long as Farmer

and Pettine got their way....

 

I'm all in. Right now... I look at Odell Beckham, wr, and Watkins, and I don't see that

Beckham will be there with the Brown's second round pick now. My guess is, after

the combine, Beckham moves into the first round. He's explosive.

 

Not sold on Manziel. He is amazing - everybody knows that. But Manziel often had a

superior oline, and excellent, tall wr's. Add to that playing in nice weather... how do ya

translate that automatically to playing in the NFL, in the cold, snowing, in the wind?

 

And, is he coachable with a tough minded NFL coach like Pettine? Beats me. But there

is...everything? ridiing on this next draft of ten picks, Seems like taking Manziel at 4 is a gamble.

I really like Garoppolo. May is so far away...

[Flyin J]

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=statsinfo&id=81639&tag=johnny-manziel

[Spectralcow]

As you all know, I favor a balanced offense that isn't completely based on this idea that "A QB savior shall come and pass us into the promised land!" Also, I don't necessarily think that Manziel is a "sure thing" in the same way that someone like a Luck was (Settle down, settle down,... keep reading...).

 

That being said, I can't ignore the kid's success on the field. Do I think he's made great decisions off the field? No. Will that be trouble? Maybe. I really think it could go either way. But, he is an athletic kid who seems to pass well and run well, and he performed well against some good college defenses. Sometimes that does end up meaning success in the pros, sometimes it doesn't. But, as much doubt as may exist in my mind about Manziel, I've got just as much doubt about almost any other player in the draft this year.

 

It all comes down to this: The Browns need to do something about a QB. Hoyer probably isn't the perfect answer immediately, and certainly isn't the long-term answer. Manziel is a young guy (isn't he the same age as Weeden's grandkids?) and has been a standout for two years. The chance that he'll become a good starting NFL QB is certainly worth the #4 pick to the Browns. It's a risk, but a relatively low one. An early pick for a guy who has a good chance to be a viable QB is a pretty standard tradeoff, and one that I think the Browns should be comfortable with. I'm not QB crazy and I don't think he's a 100% sure thing, but I'm plenty comfortable with the Browns taking Manziel at #4.

 

Now, there's been some crazy talk about moving up to get him. That I am not onboard with. The chance to get Manziel is not, in my mind, worth adding in another early round pick. That's a whole additional player who could contribute to the team in another area. I just cannot stand by the idea that the likelihood that Manziel will be good is worth two of the top 30 or top 50-60 players in the college draft this year. Maybe if the Browns ONLY needed a QB - if the team was complete except for this one gaping hole. But the Browns could certainly use some early round help in some other areas as well.

 

In short, I say take Manziel at #4 and do it with confidence and excitement, if you think he can be good. Just don't trade anything significant to move up to get him.

[jcam222]

As you all know, I favor a balanced offense that isn't completely based on this idea that "A QB savior shall come and pass us into the promised land!" Also, I don't necessarily think that Manziel is a "sure thing" in the same way that someone like a Luck was (Settle down, settle down,... keep reading...).

 

That being said, I can't ignore the kid's success on the field. Do I think he's made great decisions off the field? No. Will that be trouble? Maybe. I really think it could go either way. But, he is an athletic kid who seems to pass well and run well, and he performed well against some good college defenses. Sometimes that does end up meaning success in the pros, sometimes it doesn't. But, as much doubt as may exist in my mind about Manziel, I've got just as much doubt about almost any other player in the draft this year.

 

It all comes down to this: The Browns need to do something about a QB. Hoyer probably isn't the perfect answer immediately, and certainly isn't the long-term answer. Manziel is a young guy (isn't he the same age as Weeden's grandkids?) and has been a standout for two years. The chance that he'll become a good starting NFL QB is certainly worth the #4 pick to the Browns. It's a risk, but a relatively low one. An early pick for a guy who has a good chance to be a viable QB is a pretty standard tradeoff, and one that I think the Browns should be comfortable with. I'm not QB crazy and I don't think he's a 100% sure thing, but I'm plenty comfortable with the Browns taking Manziel at #4.

 

Now, there's been some crazy talk about moving up to get him. That I am not onboard with. The chance to get Manziel is not, in my mind, worth adding in another early round pick. That's a whole additional player who could contribute to the team in another area. I just cannot stand by the idea that the likelihood that Manziel will be good is worth two of the top 30 or top 50-60 players in the college draft this year. Maybe if the Browns ONLY needed a QB - if the team was complete except for this one gaping hole. But the Browns could certainly use some early round help in some other areas as well.

 

In short, I say take Manziel at #4 and do it with confidence and excitement, if you think he can be good. Just don't trade anything significant to move up to get him.

I agree with most of what you said for sure. I do think though you jump to conclusions and sell Hoyer short. Admittedly we got a small sample size of his performance BUT if he can perform at that level consistently he would be the number 1 QB on many teams.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I agree with most of what you said for sure. I do think though you jump to conclusions and sell Hoyer short. Admittedly we got a small sample size of his performance BUT if he can perform at that level consistently he would be the number 1 QB on many teams.

Hoyer performed admirably, but I think we're glamorizing it a bit. He played like garbage in Arizona when given the shot, then came here and played better than what we had. He may have the potential, but I wouldn't want to put all my chips on him and him alone.

 

If he can perform like he did against Cincinatti on a consistent basis then, yes, he can be an NFL starter. But let's not ride into the season on an if without at least some sort of other plan. I'd rather have two ifs than one if and nothing else.

[Spectralcow]

You think so? My opinion is that is a bit of wishful thinking/loving the guy because he's on your team. Hoyer would not be the #1 QB on many teams, because he was floating around out there and no one showed much interest in him. In a few games last year, he didn't suddenly become a great QB. Did he play well a few games? Sure. Can he fill in and do okay? Maybe. And maybe a guy gets overlooked by one team or a few teams or some teams. However, chances are pretty slim that, with all the eyes in the league constantly looking, there's a guy out there who would be the #1 QB on many teams, but just no one notices.

 

I don't dislike Hoyer, but I think suggesting "he's the guy" for any length of time other than filling in is wishful thinking.

[jcam222]

Hoyer performed admirably, but I think we're glamorizing it a bit. He played like garbage in Arizona when given the shot, then came here and played better than what we had. He may have the potential, but I wouldn't want to put all my chips on him and him alone.

 

If he can perform like he did against Cincinatti on a consistent basis then, yes, he can be an NFL starter. But let's not ride into the season on an if without at least some sort of other plan. I'd rather have two ifs than one if and nothing else.

Agree 100% I just believe he has earned the opportunity for a fair competition for the starting job. I would love to see us take a QB and then not force the start due to his draft rank. Make it a legitimate competition and start the winner. If the loser is the rookie let him sit and learn. Although it likely doesn't make sense I would be a fan of taking someone like Bortles in the first round and Garopollo or Mettenberger in the 3rd if possible. Let the competition and learning begin.

[calfoxwc]

Hoyer plays smart, and has been around. Pettine is impressed with him.

 

With Hoyer, no sense in sending any rookie out there from the beginning in regular season.

 

Although, if Hoyer had to retire from his injury (not happening)...

I'd start the rookie straight away before I'd let weedone or campbell see the field.

*************************

1. Mike Pettine thinks Brian Hoyer's "a winner"

   NBCSports.com ‎- 1 day ago

   New Browns coach Mike Pettine knows a little about quarterback Brian Hoyer, from game-planning for him last season as the Bills defensive ...

[Spectralcow]

I agree, jcam. I think there should always be competition for all starting jobs. The player who offers the best possibility for winning should be the starter in every position, including QB.

[TopDawg31]

Was Hoyer's success a product of Turners offense and can he excel in a new offensive system of which we have no idea what it will be yet?

[RoyceRolls]

The fact that you don't like his "scrambling style" is duly noted, but ultimately means nothing. I can understand the fear of injury, but anything can happen. A CB tore his ACL in the Senior Bowl in a non contact injury. In 1989, National League MVP Kevin Mitchell pulled a muscle while puking after getting food poisoning and missed time. Jaret Holmes burned himself with fondue. Lionel Letizi pulled a back muscle reaching for a Scrabble tile.

 

 

 

 

Lets not forget my personal favorite athlete injury: NHL winger Dustin Penner injuring his back while eating pancakes.

[miktoxic]

i coughed in the shower and was on my back for 6 months. so?

 

i ain't making 5 mil a year.

 

meanwhile jamarcuss and holmgren made 10 mil. for eating donuts.

[miktoxic]

I just believe he has earned the opportunity for a fair competition for the starting job. I would love to see us take a QB and then not force the start due to his draft rank. Make it a legitimate competition and start the winner.

 

hey j, we all know that's not the way it works in the NFL. plenty of QBs were promised a 'fair' competition int the off season. just to have the FOs #1 pick to start because it's 'their' guy.

 

in the AFCN the only QB i see starting in this physical division is bortles, and no one here can say he won't be a leinert or a shuler.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

hey j, we all know that's not the way it works in the NFL. plenty of QBs were promised a 'fair' competition int the off season. just to have the FOs #1 pick to start because it's 'their' guy.

 

in the AFCN the only QB i see starting in this physical division is bortles, and no one here can say he won't be a leinert or a shuler.

And no one here can say he won't be a Roethlisberger or Favre.

[miktoxic]

And no one here can say he won't be a Roethlisberger or Favre.

exactly.

 

roethlisberger is no dan marino but he sure as hell looks like godzilla shedding off the whole chinese army and air force.