"It's a passing league"

[bbedward]

 

Wilson and Kaepernick struggled with the teams they are on now. I didn't see much of anything in the NFC Championship game that made me think they are a lock for long-term franchise QBs. Of course this has only been year 2 for both of them as starting QBs.

 

That being said, with the current Browns team plus a Kaep/Wilson type QB (and an RB that is at least capable), everyone will be happy ecstatic if in their first two years they go to the playoffs one year and a SB appearance the other. But defense needs to seriously step up their game too.

 

The other option is to find a Peyton, Brady, Luck in the draft. (And here would still need a serviceable RB.)

 

My question for the long run: Peytons, Bradys, Lucks are long term solutions. How will teams with a Kaep or Wilson or stay relevant in comparison? Will they go to the playoffs year after year and maybe win a SB or two within a decade? Or will it be a fast and furious five year plan? I might be generous going five years even.

 

I might be living in the past with my preference for pocket passers. Somebody show me that drafting a Kaep, Wilson, RGIII (i.e. Manziel) is the answer, beyond a couple blazing years. It would be a fun ride for sure, but I'd rather have relevance for 10-12 years with a couple Championships in the mix.

I would argue kaepernik is the biggest reason SF stayed in the NFC game.

 

Both are solid guys, not Peyton Manning's but as of right now they are the franchise guys.

 

Kaep was down over last year, but not much.

 

Wilson had a good year.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

When was the last time a mobile QB won a superbowl.

Even a stiff like Flacco won last year.

 

I say TAKE the BEST player available.

A great defensive player could anchor your defense for a decade, leaving many years of drafting to get a potential QB right.

Drew Brees. Aaron Rodgers. Ben Roethlisberger.

 

All three have above average mobility. All have recorded 40 times in the 4.7's. All are also..."pocket passers".

 

That's why it's stupid to pigeonhole a QB based on his mobility.

 

What would you qualify Luck as?

[MasterDog]

Our line looked so much better with Hoyer than Weeden, and that's not a coincidence.

 

There's only one guy in this draft that have shown the ability to make the quick throw and go thru his progression with high percentage passes. This kid threw 31 TD and only 4 INT (3 of them tipped).

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

We're dealing with the Baltimore, Pitts and Cin folks.

To win this division, we need players in the trenches that can beat the crap out of them.

When's the last time a team won a Super Bowl with five first round offensive linemen?

 

When's the last time a team won a Super Bowl with five Pro Bowl offensive linemen?

[tml1138]

How does Kaep fit into that group? Just because he's a runner?

 

Kaep and Wilson still finished the regular season in the top ten in passer rating. Both of them threw nearly three times as many touchdowns and interceptions, and neither of them had double digit interceptions.

 

When I hear "pocket passer", I hear "old". Just because a guy can run doesn't mean he isn't a pocket passer. Wilson ran a designed bootleg in the NFC Championship and stayed behind the line and turned that play into a 30 yard passing gain. He had four blockers in front of him and could have picked up a first down, yet he didnt.

 

I think looking for quarterbacks with no mobility just to fill your "pocket passer" category severely limits he potential of the team.

 

Yes, articles I've read they lump him in with running "read option" QBs, with Wilson, Newton, and RG3.

 

I didn't say pocket passer with no mobility. No way for that.

 

So they pass plenty as well (I didn't watch Kaep/Wilson through the year, only playoffs.), and I did notice the pass Wilson made scrambling around in the backfield, when he was wide open to run. I thought that was unusual. But if the play was designed for a pass, he must've felt compelled to carry it out. Or didn't realize how easily he could've gotten the 1st down? But there is a difference between QBs today that I'm questioning:

 

1. Those that have the intent to pass, and run only to get time to make a throw, or throw away, or then scramble for a 1st down and slide to avoid taking a hit. Basically a pocket passer is their first choice, but need to be mobile because you aren't going to get to stand there like a statue every play.

 

2. Those that have both pass and run plays designed for them. And run and take more risks than type #1. This is the group where Kaep belongs as far as I know.

[MasterDog]

Drew Brees. Aaron Rodgers. Ben Roethlisberger.

 

 

 

I wouldn't classifly these guys as 'mobile' QB. I would say they have very good 'pocket awareness'.

 

Brees only have 1 season with more than 100 rushing yards in a season.

 

A. Rodgers rushes for about 15 yards per game average in the past 4 season. And he broke his collarbone this season. You can bet his rushing numbers will drop drastically going forward.

 

Big Ben has averaged less than 90 yards of rushing the past 3 season.

[tml1138]

And yes I intentionally generalized between pocket passer and running QBs. Give me your breakdown of QB groups.

[MasterDog]

When's the last time a team won a Super Bowl with five first round offensive linemen?

 

When's the last time a team won a Super Bowl with five Pro Bowl offensive linemen?

 

First round picks don't win championships.

A well balance team with a solid coach does.

 

Just because a QB is drafted high or rated high doesn't mean it will translate into success. We've been beaten up by the steelers and ravens for years because of their defenses. The Bengals look like they might hang around for a while too. We just NEED TO LAND GOOD PLAYERS.

[MasterDog]

Cam, Kaep and Wilson are good QB, but it's NOT the reason why their teams have won recently.

 

The Panthers did well this year because of their DEFENSE.

The 49ers have done well the past 3 seasons because of their DEFENSE.

The Seahawks have an Elite DEFENSE and running game.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

First round picks don't win championships.

A well balance team with a solid coach does.

 

Just because a QB is drafted high or rated high doesn't mean it will translate into success. We've been beaten up by the steelers and ravens for years because of their defenses. The Bengals look like they might hang around for a while too. We just NEED TO LAND GOOD PLAYERS.

I agree with that. We need to be great in all aspects of the game.

 

But the cost-benefit ratio is much greater taking one of the top rated quarterbacks this year than taking a guard or RT in the first round.

 

 

If we didn't have the pieces in place, I wouldn't advocate taking a quarterback, but this is easily the most talented offense we've had since our return. We have two very viable receiving threats, two very good offensive linemen, and enough solid players to fill in the cracks.

 

If we could land either Manziel or Bortles, a solid runningback, and an interior lineman in he first three rounds, our offense would be on par with the better offenses in the league. We could address #2 CB and ILB as well, either with our next picks or through FA.

 

We'd have talent across the board with no glaring holes. We'd have a possible franchise quarterback to compete with Hoyer. We'd have a runningback.

 

Personally, I don't see the dichotomy as much between running QB's and non-running QB's in the NFL. Having mobility is just another bonus. As I stated earlier, both Wilson and Kaep are in the top ten in passer rating. Both have fantastic numbers through the air.

 

Having the ability to run isn't the same as being a running QB.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

That's what I'm saying TC- a mobile qb is fine, it's becoming more and more of a necessity. Manning and Brady may be the last of that genre. I'll take a Kapernic or a Wilson good @ 4- Manziel is not either of them. He might (possibly) have the passing ability, but IMHO he doesn't have the frame to stay healthy if he takes off running on a consistent basis.

 

Yeah- so how about Bortles @ 4, and Tre Mason with the second first rounder? I can even live with Watkins, and then Carr or Mason, and\or take Garrapolo in the second round. IMHO a stud run blocking OG should be high on the Browns shopping list- Pinkston and Lavaou suck.

Manziel is two inches taller and 5 pounds heavier than Wilson. My bet is he'll measure in at 6'0 3/4" and 212 lbs at the Combine.

 

I'm just as scared, but I'm warming up to Manziel. Obviously, I would love Bortles. But I can see the Manziel appeal now. People don't realize that Manziel has very similar strengths as Wilson, passing wise. He's not a schlub at throwing.

[bbedward]

Cam, Kaep and Wilson are good QB, but it's NOT the reason why their teams have won recently.

 

The Panthers did well this year because of their DEFENSE.

The 49ers have done well the past 3 seasons because of their DEFENSE.

The Seahawks have an Elite DEFENSE and running game.

Yea but if we hold our QB standards to Peyton/Rodgers/Brady/Brees we'll never find our guy.

 

Manziel is a good thrower too ^^^ he's accurate, makes pretty good decisions. At this point I don't care who they get as long as they don't trade big for him.

[MasterDog]

I'm actually one that believe Manziel will struggle if he lands in Cleveland. In a team that has a better defense and coaching staff in place, i think he have a higher chance to succeed. The only QB in this draft that can come into Cleveland and be up and running quickly is Bridgewater simply because he's been running a pro-style offense for 2 years at Lousville. Would i like them to trade up to grab Bridgewater, NO. I would spread rumors of hyping Manziel and Bridgewater (no first round grade) and prays Bridgewater will fall to us at 4.

 

I'm also am not fond of Manziel's running style.

Yes, it's exciting but there's wrecknessless. His high INT is also a concern. He has a tendency to throw one up for grab.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I'm actually one that believe Manziel will struggle if he lands in Cleveland. In a team that has a better defense and coaching staff in place, i think he have a higher chance to succeed. The only QB in this draft that can come into Cleveland and be up and running quickly is Bridgewater simply because he's been running a pro-style offense for 2 years at Lousville.

That's assuming we run a pro style offense. I personally think Bortles would have the most success here simply because of his body style. He's a clone of Ben and could withstand the punishment of playing in the AFC North more than Manziel or Bridgewater.

[MasterDog]

That's assuming we run a pro style offense. I personally think Bortles would have the most success here simply because of his body style. He's a clone of Ben and could withstand the punishment of playing in the AFC North more than Manziel or Bridgewater.

 

Correct.

I would like them to take Bortles before Manziel...but not at the 4th spot. There are game changing players with elite skillset at the 4th spot.

Clowney & Barr have the potential be be defensive anchor players for the next 5-10 years. That's what we need in the AFC North.

 

And when i talk about pro-style offense, i'm taking about reading defenses and going through his progressions. There's a stat out there that i saw which indicated that Manziel threw 78% of his passes to his primary read. Bridgewater have a very high % of passes to his 2nd, 3rd and 4th option.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Correct.

I would like them to take Bortles before Manziel...but not at the 4th spot. There are game changing players with elite skillset at the 4th spot.

Clowney & Barr have the potential be be defensive anchor players for the next 5-10 years. That's what we need in the AFC North.

Clowney is just as much of a risk as Manziel, with less benefit. Even the best DE/OLB is only a piece of the puzzle, defensively. Two or three sacks and 15 tackles is a lock for the HOF, and that's only half as valuable as what a franchise quarterback brings.

 

I live in Gamecock country. My friends are alums. I've met Clowney. Ive watched him practice and play throughout high school and college. I know what he's capable of. I also know that he's just as capable of letting it get to his head and taking plays off. He gives 100% on three or four plays per extended drive and goes on autopilot the rest of the time.

 

He's not nearly as much of a sure prospect as some would have you believe.

[MasterDog]

I would gamble on a freak of nature (Clowney), than an undersize QB.

 

But that's just me.

[Zombo]

It's a "pass the dutchie" league ... since the only two states to legalize pot are going to the Super Bowl. Ohio better get to work.

 

Zombo

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I would gamble on a freak of nature (Clowney), than an undersize QB.

 

But that's just me.

I'd gamble on a twice nominated and once winning Heisman trophy quarterback over a defensive end.

 

 

But that's just me.

[The Gipper]

It's a "pass the dutchie" league ... since the only two states to legalize pot are going to the Super Bowl. Ohio better get to work.

 

Zombo

Interesting that that is the case. I am sure that Kasich will get right on that...right after they pass the gay marriage act.

[thenew23]

It's a "pass the dutchie" league ... since the only two states to legalize pot are going to the Super Bowl. Ohio better get to work.

 

Zombo

 

Genius. Pass the law, and it's Browns vs. Bengals in the AFC Championship next year... And, fast food sales triple across the state...

[jcam222]

I'd gamble on a twice nominated and once winning Heisman trophy quarterback over a defensive end.

 

 

But that's just me.

For the 4th pick in the draft I personally would prefer we take Sammy Watkins. He looks to be as high reward low risk as it gets. I know that takes us out of contention for what most people consider the top 3 QB prospects but I think the for risk / reward Garropolo or Mettenberger developing behind Hoyer is a solid plan and achievable in the 2nd to 3rd round. I suspect Garropolo stock will continue to soar and might even make it to the bottom of the 1st?

[RoyceRolls]

I suspect Garropolo stock will continue to soar and might even make it to the bottom of the 1st?

 

I agree, when it's all said and done I would not be surprised to see Garoppolo get selected late first early second.

[hoorta]

I'm also am not fond of Manziel's running style.

Yes, it's exciting but there's recklessness. His high INT is also a concern. He has a tendency to throw one up for grab.

 

The more I watch of Manziel, the more I agree with that. His running style sooner or later is going to land him with a big hit in the NFL. Or scrambling around right into a linebacker coming at him full tilt.

[hoorta]

Manziel is two inches taller and 5 pounds heavier than Wilson. My bet is he'll measure in at 6'0 3/4" and 212 lbs at the Combine.

 

I'm just as scared, but I'm warming up to Manziel. Obviously, I would love Bortles. But I can see the Manziel appeal now. People don't realize that Manziel has very similar strengths as Wilson, passing wise. He's not a schlub at throwing.

 

That's assuming he shows up. Combine? I don't need no damn combine, I'm JOHNNY FREAKING FOOTBALL © !!!! Or you forget he blew off Manning's Camp? If you're not concerned about off-field crap he's pulled, maybe you should be.

[tml1138]

Sounds to me like he'd pull an Elway/Eli if the Browns were to draft him. Or maybe the circus performer would be attracted to the circus.

[calfoxwc]

I still think Manziel would be in the wrong division, wrong weather.

 

He can only do the things he does if he has a dome, or plays all

home games in nice weather.

 

I don't see it. He's a great, really great college qb at improvising.

 

But kinda like a lot of players have said - in the NFL, every single player

you face was also a "great" college player. I don't think Manziel is a good fit

for the Browns. But the chance he'd pull an "Eli" is pretty strong.

 

Hell, coaches don't want to come to the Browns now, some won't even interview.

Not a stretch that college players would rather play for a respectable NFL organization

without having a new coach every single year... .....Haslam... you listenin?

[TheBrownBwner]

 

Genius. Pass the law, and it's Browns vs. Bengals in the AFC Championship next year... And, fast food sales triple across the state...

Not even pot can let Marvin get past the first round of the playoffs.

[MasterDog]

 

The more I watch of Manziel, the more I agree with that. His running style sooner or later is going to land him with a big hit in the NFL. Or scrambling around right into a linebacker coming at him full tilt.

 

There's NO ONE better at escaping presssure than M. Vick and the reason M. Vick never turn out to be a good passer or QB in this league is because of his 'freakish' physical ability. Instead of making the proper reads and going through his pass progressions, he will tuck it away and run. Yes, it's exicting, yes it 'can' move the chains, 'yes' you can win some games BUT in the long run he will not progress as a passing QB. His ceiling looks high but it really isn't.

 

I've been reading that 'Manziel' have the highest risk and the highest ceiling. That's pure BS and frabrication of folks that don't understand this new 'passing' NFL. The highest ceiling and standard in the NFL are the Payton Manning, Brees, Brady & A. Rodgers. Guys that can throw for 5,000 yards and 45+ TD a season with less than 30-50 rushing yards. Can anyone truly think Manziel could be a pure pocket passer like these 4 guys? No way...not with the way he runs around. His greatest ability will also be his greatest liability. And stop with this college awards stuff, College numbers means NOTHING in the NFL. The game is different. When was the last time a heisman trophy winner did anything in the NFL?

[bbedward]

 

There's NO ONE better at escaping M. Vick and the reason M. Vick never turn out to be a good passer or QB in this league is because of his 'freakish' physical ability. Instead of making the proper reads and going through his pass progressions, he will tuck it away and run. Yes, it's exicting, yes it 'can' move the chains, 'yes' you can win some games BUT in the long run he will not progress as a passing QB. His ceiling looks high but it really isn't.

 

I've been reading that 'Manziel' have the highest risk and the highest ceiling. That's pure BS and frabrication of folks that don't understand this new 'passing' NFL. The highest ceiling and standard in the NFL are the Payton Manning, Brees, Brady & A. Rodgers. Guys that can throw for 5,000 yards and 45+ TD a season with less than 30-50 rushing yards. Can anyone truly think Manziel could be a pure pocket passer like these 4 guys? No way...not with the way he runs around. His greatest ability will also be his greatest liability. And stop with this college awards stuff, College numbers means NOTHING in the NFL. The game is different. When was the last time a heisman trophy winner did anything in the NFL?

I won't disqualify someone because they won the heisman and heisman winners haven't had HoF NFL careers lately.

 

Most of the heisman winners are QBs, and good NFL QBs don't come out of every draft too often. (Last winner I'd happily take is Cam Newton)

 

Since 2010, QBs I like are: Mallet/Cam/Luck/Wilson/Foles/Kaep/Cousins.

 

That's like 7/51.

 

If you went back 3 more years, there's maybe 2-3 more with Matt Ryan being the best.

 

The odds aren't good regardless to find a QB who will be successful in the NFL.

 

And Vick is ok, but he can't play a 16 game season.

 

 

Apparently Ozzie thinks Bridgewater is a good prospect. That's good enough for me.