Guest Aloysius Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 ...should be what Amjad Atallah proposes here: More of this fascinating discussion here. Just great, great stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 ...should be what Amjad Atallah proposes here: More of this fascinating discussion here. Just great, great stuff. One disagreement I have so far is the idea that sanctions be limited to individuals. It occurs to me that civilian populations need to see the cosequences of their support for Hamas or whoever. Hamas came to power partially thanks to "bribing" the citizens, no? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Setting aside the morality issues, I think collective punishment is a strategic mistake for Israel. When sanctions are imposed by the int'l community, the enemy a dictator or a corrupt leader can vilify is distant and diffused across the 180 or so countries in the UN. By contrast, when Israel cuts off Gaza from water, gas, and basic resources, it's very easy for Hamas to blame Israel for all of Gaza's problems. When the populace is already conditioned to believe Israel is their enemy (both because of Hamas propaganda and, well, because Israel bombs them), the result is only to strengthen Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Setting aside the morality issues, I think collective punishment is a strategic mistake for Israel. When sanctions are imposed by the int'l community, the enemy a dictator or a corrupt leader can vilify is distant and diffused across the 180 or so countries in the UN. By contrast, when Israel cuts off Gaza from water, gas, and basic resources, it's very easy for Hamas to blame Israel for all of Gaza's problems. When the populace is already conditioned to believe Israel is their enemy (both because of Hamas propaganda and, well, because Israel bombs them), the result is only to strengthen Hamas. Have you seen instances in which sanctions did not come out of the "people's" collective ass? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. T Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Sanctions dont work period. But if thats what all the flower children want then so let it be until those terrorists start lobbing mortar fire over the border again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Have you seen instances in which sanctions did not come out of the "people's" collective ass? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mz. Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 You mean you don't understand what T is asking?? I find it obvious. It's the fcuking settlers, everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 and the UN, libs suggest, will enact and enforce the santions? good grief. The Soviets, even if they DID vote for sanctions, would simply violate the sanctions for $2.00 and a pocket watch. "nothing should ever be done about anything, unless alllllllllll the world's countries agree to it" It's time to admit the UN is worthless, and sanctions won't work, anymore than the US-Soviet anti-bio weapon treaty did. The Soviets simply signed it, and opened up SECRET bioweapon labs. But Obama wants to have another treaty with the Soviets, even now ? These are starting to be bad times already. (meanwhile, liberals applaud, instead of oppose, the skyrocketing federal deficit. What a difference a win makes...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Cal & T: we're talking about an Israel-imposed blockade of Gaza, not international sanctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Cal & T: we're talking about an Israel-imposed blockade of Gaza, not international sanctions. I just think it's basically the same principle. Punishing the citizens for the sins of the leaders they support. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 sanctions were brought up. And, Al, you and yours didn't seem to care a whit that Hamas was sending missiles into Israel... that is why Gaza was closed - in self defense. to whine about Israel's actions seems to be just trying to blow smoke in Bush's face. The problem started with Israel giving up control of Gaza, and naturally, terrorists moved right in. Closing Gaza was a self defense move to stop a new influx of terrorists' suicide bomb attacks... jic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I said Israel's blockade wasn't working, then T starts ranting about how UN sanctions don't work, and Cal accuses me of not caring about my Israeli relatives' safety. Let me restate my points: 1. The blockade created the necessity for Gazans to create alternative means of bringing in basic resources, which helped spur the construction of more tunnels. 2. Those tunnels let Hamas funnel in weapons 3. Israel can't bomb Gaza constantly, so returning to a blockade in a form of status quo ante will only result in this happening all over again.Does anyone disagree with that? And does anyone think that the idea Atallah proposes in the clip above is a bad idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 So, now it's Israel's fault that they tried to stop suicide bombers from entering Israel from Gaza, because the Palestinians and Hamas had to built tunnels which is used also by Hamas to transfer weapons... ??? How the heyl do ya figure that Hamas wouldn't use open borders/gates with Gaza to transer weapons ? Come on, Al. You are ignoring missiles sent into Israel that started the whole thing in the first place. Use some comprehensive logic about it, don't just try to be partisan sniping oriented... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 As to the clip, it's a stupid idea, because it is half-baked - Atalla was a peace negotiations advisor to the Palestinians? what? How about the UN gets involved in stopping the missiles in the first place? How about we show the Arab world that we care about BOTH Israelis' and Palestinians' casualties? How convenient for him, to mention the loss of limbs because of Israel's self defense against Hamas and it's missiles, but to not mention the hideous death and devasting injuries to Israelis because of missiles and suicide bombers? It's pleading for sympathy only for the Palestinians and Arab world because a lot of the UN "leadership" have their hand in the oil pie. If Israel had plenty of oil, the Soviets would be all over themselves to be supporters of them. The Arab world knows we freakin care. But Hamas doesn't care either way. And Hamas -and- plenty of Palestinians don't care about the devastating injuries to Israelies. I don't want innocents, especially children, on EITHER side to be injured. How hard it that? Where is the freakin "UN" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Where is the freakin "UN" ? UNRWA keeps the Palestinians from starving. As Atallah mentions later in the clip, UNRWA actually indirectly allowed for Israel to continue its military operations. Were it not for the organization, pictures on TV of starving Palestinian children would have forced Israel into ceasing its military operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 The Palestinians are suffering because of some who hate, and the interference in the peace process by Hamas. In fact, the Palestinians, and they aren't really Palestinians, but whatever... were supposed to have their own country back in the 40's? when Israel was created. But they refused, they wanted Israel to not exist, for the Jews to not exist. So, they ended up on the short end of the stick, because of not uncommon hatred. When the idiot mouthpiece of Iran, and others, say that the Holocaust never happened, it's just a manipulation of centuries old hatred of the Jews, they are deliberately fanning the flames. And innocents are killed on both sides, and on one side, little children are taught to hate, taught to wear suicide vests to kill Jews. Let the hate end. We can only hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mz. Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 When the idiot mouthpiece of Iran, and others, say that the Holocaust never happened, it's just a manipulation of centuries old hatred of the Jews, they are deliberately fanning the flames. And innocents are killed on both sides, and on one side, little children are taught to hate, taught to wear suicide vests to kill Jews. Cal, for some reason you think Alo and I are not sympathetic to this. Not only are we sympathetic to this, we LIVE this. But I don't think that's the point. Of course Palestinian children are raised to hate Jews just as I have zero doubt Israeli kids are raised to hate Palestinians. This is why this isn't going away anytime soon. PS anytime this comes close to having some sort of breakthrough, I think of the fcuking settlers and get really pissed off. There was a great (if not slanted) piece on 60 Minutes on Sunday re: exactly this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I just question the one-sidedness, that's all. I don't see any indication that Israeli kids are taught to hate Palestinians. At all. There isn't any kind of teaching them to hate them, to wear suicide vests to kill them, etc. The hate and aggression is for the vast, most part... one sided, and historically has "always" been so, with certain segments of certain Palestinian and other Arab groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I don't see any indication that Israeli kids are taught to hate Palestinians. At all. Maybe not to the same extent, but it's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mz. Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I don't see any indication that Israeli kids are taught to hate Palestinians. At all. I'm not sure how you can't see this. I'm serious. There isn't any kind of teaching them to hate them, to wear suicide vests to kill them, etc. The reason you don't see Israeli suicide bombers is because life on Earth seems to be way more valued in Judaism. But just because you don't see suicide bombings from both sides doesn't mean there isn't hate and aggression from both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm sure there are some Israelis who hate Palestinians because of the violence they perpetuate. But I'm saying it is NOT a subculture, not anything of the sort. With the Palestinians, it is a -major- subculture that indeed, just does not value life, especially Israelis' lives. It's all so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab racism is a major subculture within Israeli society, especially within the settler movement. Organizations like this one may not still formally exist, but the ideology behind them is still prevalent within the religious-nationalist segment of Israeli society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mz. Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 It's all so sad. Here's where we all can agree. Now the question is what the heck can we do about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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