BrownsFan17 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Just some completely random thoughts about why I believe the Cardinals will beat the Steelers... -Just like the Giants last year, the Cardinals - with good reason - feel like they have something to prove. Every week, they are continually hearing about how they don't deserve to be there or don't have a snowball's chance in Arizona to win. They will be playing with a chip on their shoulders. -The Cardinals D. If they were able to contain the Panthers running game, they should have no problem stopping Willie Parker. That will put too much pressure on Ben and he does not play his best in that situation. -Fitzy and Boldin. How the hell do you stop both of them? At the same time?? -Warner. He is dangerous right now...and God is on his side. -Whisenhut. His knowledge of the Steelers players and their weaknesses will give him a slight advantage. I would give an advantage to LeBeau for knowing Whisenhut however the Cardinal offense is completely different than the offense Whisenhut ran in Pitt. -Last but not least, the most important reason is because I hate the Steelers and don't want them to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Just some completely random thoughts about why I believe the Cardinals will beat the Steelers... -Just like the Giants last year, the Cardinals - with good reason - feel like they have something to prove. Every week, they are continually hearing about how they don't deserve to be there or don't have a snowball's chance in Arizona to win. They will be playing with a chip on their shoulders. -The Cardinals D. If they were able to contain the Panthers running game, they should have no problem stopping Willie Parker. That will put too much pressure on Ben and he does not play his best in that situation. -Fitzy and Boldin. How the hell do you stop both of them? At the same time?? -Warner. He is dangerous right now...and God is on his side. -Whisenhut. His knowledge of the Steelers players and their weaknesses will give him a slight advantage. I would give an advantage to LeBeau for knowing Whisenhut however the Cardinal offense is completely different than the offense Whisenhut ran in Pitt. -Last but not least, the most important reason is because I hate the Steelers and don't want them to win. I would echo those same sentiments and dont forget Steve Breaston is no slouch at WR either...GO CARDS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eqrulz101 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I sure hope you are right and I do blieve the Cards have a chance, their D seems to have greatly improved this post season. I fear and pretty much expect steeler defense to look at taking out Fitz or Boldin with some cheap shots though. They are gonna try and lite those recievers up like a christmas tree. And lets not forget about the Refs, who always seem to throw a flag when the Steelers need it. Ya I know, you will get Steeler fans on here talking about calls that went against them but ofcourse Refs cant call every call in favor of the Steelers, all it takes is a key flag to extend or end a drive that can turn a game. I have seen it happen to many times win it comes to the steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownsFan17 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I sure hope you are right and I do blieve the Cards have a chance, their D seems to have greatly improved this post season. I fear and pretty much expect steeler defense to look at taking out Fitz or Boldin with some cheap shots though. They are gonna try and lite those recievers up like a christmas tree. And lets not forget about the Refs, who always seem to throw a flag when the Steelers need it. Ya I know, you will get Steeler fans on here talking about calls that went against them but ofcourse Refs cant call every call in favor of the Steelers, all it takes is a key flag to extend or end a drive that can turn a game. I have seen it happen to many times win it comes to the steelers. I have put some thought into the Ref tampering thing and I have a conspiracy theory... The Steelers were destined to win SB 40 because the powers that be wanted them to. They have one of the biggest group of bandwagoning fans (Dallas is up there too and does everyone remember who the Steelers lost to in their previous SB appearance?) and they hadn't won a Super Bowl in 30 years. The NFL wanted to keep all of those fans happy and interested. This year a team that hasn't won a championship in 61 years will be there and I think the calls might end up going their way because everybody loves an underdog story. Crazy? Maybe...maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eqrulz101 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I honestly feel that betting has taken over the sport of football and the refs have more to do with who wins then most want to believe, and I'm not just talking about the steelers here, I mean several games a week being affected by the powers that be. There is way to much money on the line with betting to believe that its all legit, if someone can cheat to make a payday they will find a way to do it. Paying off refs is an easy way of doing it and it only takes a few bad calls at a key point in the game to change an out come. Think a momentum shift flag that kills a needed drive or a flag extending a drive that kills the defense's morale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pl4tinum Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Unfortunately they have to beat the Referees too Steelers get the most bullsh-t calls EVER, every single game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 no, mitch berger's just a good actor..... man can get a flag pulled with no contact. now, thats a guy we need! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snatch98 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I sure hope you are right and I do blieve the Cards have a chance, their D seems to have greatly improved this post season. I fear and pretty much expect steeler defense to look at taking out Fitz or Boldin with some cheap shots though. They are gonna try and lite those recievers up like a christmas tree. And lets not forget about the Refs, who always seem to throw a flag when the Steelers need it. Ya I know, you will get Steeler fans on here talking about calls that went against them but ofcourse Refs cant call every call in favor of the Steelers, all it takes is a key flag to extend or end a drive that can turn a game. I have seen it happen to many times win it comes to the steelers. Has anyone listened to the national news media lately? in particular the national radio media? Early in the week most were discussing the NON-Calls in the Steelers favor, specifically holding on both Woodley and Harrison. Mike and Mike in the Morning, NFL today etc, etc, etc all discussing how Woodley and Harrison get mugged and the refs don't throw the flag. In addition to Ben getting knocked around after the whistle when the NFL seems hell bent on protecting every QB but a choice few because of their toughness factor. If everyone is so convinced the Steelers get favorable calls dig up the penalties this season and see what you find. There was a point in time when the last hold called in the Steelers favor was the damn redskins game.....it was something like 8 straight games without a hold called in our favor and with the defensive player of the year and Woodley on the other side you can bet your ass they are getting held and the tape will prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes10_Ward_86 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Just some completely random thoughts about why I believe the Cardinals will beat the Steelers... -Just like the Giants last year, the Cardinals - with good reason - feel like they have something to prove. Every week, they are continually hearing about how they don't deserve to be there or don't have a snowball's chance in Arizona to win. They will be playing with a chip on their shoulders. -The Cardinals D. If they were able to contain the Panthers running game, they should have no problem stopping Willie Parker. That will put too much pressure on Ben and he does not play his best in that situation. -Fitzy and Boldin. How the hell do you stop both of them? At the same time?? -Warner. He is dangerous right now...and God is on his side. -Whisenhut. His knowledge of the Steelers players and their weaknesses will give him a slight advantage. I would give an advantage to LeBeau for knowing Whisenhut however the Cardinal offense is completely different than the offense Whisenhut ran in Pitt. -Last but not least, the most important reason is because I hate the Steelers and don't want them to win. Lets be honest, the Cardinals won 9 games to win the division and make the playoffs. Six of those wins came against the division (combined record of 13-35 and six of thier wins came against each other). The three other wins came against Miami, Buffalo, and Dallas. Only Miami made the playoffs and Baltimore crushed them. Now, the Cards have had an excellent run in the playoffs, but Atlanta and Carolina both have defenses ranked in the bottom half of the league. They outscored them. While the Cards did jump on Philly, it took a late drive for the win. Now, how does their offense match up against the Steelers defense? Sendlein will have to have help in the middle against Hampton. Where will it come from? Brown will have his hands full with Woodley. Gandy will have to handle Harrison. That means that Lutui will have Smith and Wells will have Keisel. If ANY of the Cards linemen need help, it means they will block down forcing either your TE or RB to handle Wood or Harrison. If that happens, Warner is meat on a stick. And, while the Zona WRs are great, Warner is going to have to get it out quickly. He better know where Polamalu is. Clark has sent several players to the bench with his crushing hits. Taylor has covered Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson, Plexico Burress, Andre Johnson, Braylon Edwards, and many other top WRs. He will get Fitz. McFadden, Townsend, and Gay are all capable corners and I would imagine that McFadden ends up with Boldin while Townsend gets Breaston. I have watched the Steelers for a long time and this may be the best Steeler defense I have ever saw. They have no holes. On offense, the Steelers are ranked 22nd but the Cards are only 19th in total defense. It is not like the Cards are trotting out a top 5 unit. When the Steelers have the ball, they should focus on running to the strong side. I would run right at Robinson and Smith, make Wilson come up in run support. Then, when the Steelers go three wide and bring in Nate Washington, run play action and chuck it deep. It has worked for the Steelers in several games and multiple times in games because teams must respect Parker. Parker missed a large part of the season with an injury. It took quite a few games for the Steelers to find their running game. I really do not think Arizona matches up well with ours receivers. DRC will take Holmes, but not only is Holmes fast, he is a veteran WR that runs excellent routes. I seriously doubt that any corner you have will shut Hines Ward out. He may not be a deep threat, but he gets open rather easily. Nate Washington is a very athletic WR that has excellent speed. He has more big plays than any other WR on our team. He had 4 consecutive games with catches over 48 yards. And, Heath Miller and Matt Spaeth are solid receivers as well. The Steelers offense underachieved this season. I am not afraid to state it. The offensive line was horrid early in the season. Simply horrid. They allowed 9 sacks to the Eagles. They had 6 games with 4 or more sacks. But, understand this, if the Cardinals do not create havoc with the Steelers line, not only will they run on them, but Ben will light them up and have a big big game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownsFan17 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Holmes, obviously Arizona has it's shortcomings however the same could have been said about the 8-8 Giants last year. The regular season is not what matters...it's what happens in the playoffs. Arizona has been very good at stopping the run in the playoffs and that does not bode well for Ben. He plays at his best when he doesn't have to throw it alot. I think that will be the key to this game. BTW, I don't believe your secondary has had to play against two receivers of that caliber in any game this season. It will be quite the test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eqrulz101 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Has anyone listened to the national news media lately? in particular the national radio media? Early in the week most were discussing the NON-Calls in the Steelers favor, specifically holding on both Woodley and Harrison. Mike and Mike in the Morning, NFL today etc, etc, etc all discussing how Woodley and Harrison get mugged and the refs don't throw the flag. In addition to Ben getting knocked around after the whistle when the NFL seems hell bent on protecting every QB but a choice few because of their toughness factor. If everyone is so convinced the Steelers get favorable calls dig up the penalties this season and see what you find. There was a point in time when the last hold called in the Steelers favor was the damn redskins game.....it was something like 8 straight games without a hold called in our favor and with the defensive player of the year and Woodley on the other side you can bet your ass they are getting held and the tape will prove it. As I stated before not every call is going to go for the Steelers but it is at key moments that key flags make an impact on the game. A flag for roughing the kicker that gives a first down lets say instead of kicking the ball away. Sound fimilar? Ya, there is no doubt in my mind you guys have been given some games and a SB due to paid off refs but its not just happening with the Steelers, several games every week are decided by the refs. If anybody speaks out against the refs they are fined by the NFL, why do you think that is? Then you have a guy on the NFL channel that explains controversial calls on Sunday morning pre-game shows. Also I have noticed on replays when watching a game if a call seems controversial alot of times they dont show the replay so you dont have an opportunity to see if it was a bullshit call. To much money is being made to believe it is all legit. Its just not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich4eagle Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am not going into an elaborate message. But my assessment says the Steelers win. For these reasons! They have a vastly better D that does not really match well against the Arizona offense. So the D will not dominate as usual but be adequate. The Steeler Offense will put 30 on the board and that will be good enough.......Ben is a winner and Parker will run well ...........and the passing game will make plays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 As you know, anything can happen on a single day, Rich. Having stated that disclosure, the Steelers are tougher, smarter, and, simply, a vastly superior team to AZ. I haven't looked at point spreads - mostly because I don't use them for anything useful - but I will be shocked if AZ wins - Remember Lake Placid in 1980 - and will be surprised if the Steelers win by less than 14 - 20 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes10_Ward_86 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Holmes, obviously Arizona has it's shortcomings however the same could have been said about the 8-8 Giants last year. The regular season is not what matters...it's what happens in the playoffs. Arizona has been very good at stopping the run in the playoffs and that does not bode well for Ben. He plays at his best when he doesn't have to throw it alot. I think that will be the key to this game. BTW, I don't believe your secondary has had to play against two receivers of that caliber in any game this season. It will be quite the test. When the Steelers offense struggles, the defense keep it close to give us a chance to win and with the 4 total losses we've had we were only out of ONE of them (vs Titans on the road). We dont lose by large margins. The Cards.....well......if they struggle on offense, can you honestly say the defense bailed them out ? They gave up an 18 point lead last game.......something was exposed. But Pittsburgh is consistent and if theres gonna be a blowout logic and history sides with Pitt being on the positive side of that blowout. Defense usually wins in these contests. Just ask New England. It's downright amazing what this Steelers Defense has done against the Pass this year and it hasn't all been against scrubs like Ken Dorsey and Ryan Fitzpatrick. We've faced Peyton Manning, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, etc... Basically 5 Top 10 passing offenses in the league and not a single one of those quarterbacks hit their season averages unless you count Rivers in the playoffs in which we were in Prevent with a comfortable 2 TD lead and not worrying about padding stats. I'd be concerned. Dick LeBeau might and will probably allow Kurt Warner to complete a bunch of passes, keep things short, dink and dunk and then shut him down on 3rd down. 5.4 yards per pass is an amazing number. Only 2 other times has that number been equaled since 1980 and not been beaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snatch98 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 As I stated before not every call is going to go for the Steelers but it is at key moments that key flags make an impact on the game. A flag for roughing the kicker that gives a first down lets say instead of kicking the ball away. Sound fimilar? Ya, there is no doubt in my mind you guys have been given some games and a SB due to paid off refs but its not just happening with the Steelers, several games every week are decided by the refs. If anybody speaks out against the refs they are fined by the NFL, why do you think that is? Then you have a guy on the NFL channel that explains controversial calls on Sunday morning pre-game shows. Also I have noticed on replays when watching a game if a call seems controversial alot of times they dont show the replay so you dont have an opportunity to see if it was a bullshit call. To much money is being made to believe it is all legit. Its just not. Do you honestly believe their are refs in the NFL taking cash compensation for favorable calls? Seriously? Do you realize how truly ridiculous that notion is, especially in the current NFL climate with a increase in fines, crack downs etc? The Berger flop was god awful and no one in Pittsburgh will deny it. Did it change the game? No it didn't because it didn't result in points and there was a call in B-mores favor that offset it. I'm not even going to address the Super Bowl because the poor calls were abundant throughout that entire playoff run. Bottom line the officiating in the NFL is subpar, bad calls are abundant and it's not just with the Steelers. As I pointed out and something you conveniently ignored, the lack of hold calls for the Steelers specifically is ridiculous and the National media is recognizing it as we speak. Every team in the NFL falls victim to bad calls and most of the time it doesn't decide football games. What about the lack of delay of game call against the Ravens in the Divisional game against the titans? It's opinions like this that scare me and a good reason why a good percentage of the Cleveland fan base is laughed at in outside circles. Give it a rest because it's getting really, really old. REALLY OLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gips Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Just some completely random thoughts about why I believe the Cardinals will beat the Steelers... -Just like the Giants last year, the Cardinals - with good reason - feel like they have something to prove. Every week, they are continually hearing about how they don't deserve to be there or don't have a snowball's chance in Arizona to win. They will be playing with a chip on their shoulders. -The Cardinals D. If they were able to contain the Panthers running game, they should have no problem stopping Willie Parker. That will put too much pressure on Ben and he does not play his best in that situation. -Fitzy and Boldin. How the hell do you stop both of them? At the same time?? -Warner. He is dangerous right now...and God is on his side. -Whisenhut. His knowledge of the Steelers players and their weaknesses will give him a slight advantage. I would give an advantage to LeBeau for knowing Whisenhut however the Cardinal offense is completely different than the offense Whisenhut ran in Pitt. -Last but not least, the most important reason is because I hate the Steelers and don't want them to win. Dellusional steeler hating browns fans? The cardinals will not win the superbowl and pulling for the nfc redbirds is as futile as pulling for the browns against the stoolers...Muhahahaha! AFC PRIDE! Moronic piss towels 27 Cinderella Redbirds 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eqrulz101 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Do you honestly believe their are refs in the NFL taking cash compensation for favorable calls? Seriously? Do you realize how truly ridiculous that notion is, especially in the current NFL climate with a increase in fines, crack downs etc? The Berger flop was god awful and no one in Pittsburgh will deny it. Did it change the game? No it didn't because it didn't result in points and there was a call in B-mores favor that offset it. I'm not even going to address the Super Bowl because the poor calls were abundant throughout that entire playoff run. Bottom line the officiating in the NFL is subpar, bad calls are abundant and it's not just with the Steelers. As I pointed out and something you conveniently ignored, the lack of hold calls for the Steelers specifically is ridiculous and the National media is recognizing it as we speak. Every team in the NFL falls victim to bad calls and most of the time it doesn't decide football games. What about the lack of delay of game call against the Ravens in the Divisional game against the titans? It's opinions like this that scare me and a good reason why a good percentage of the Cleveland fan base is laughed at in outside circles. Give it a rest because it's getting really, really old. REALLY OLD. I addressed your point about the holding calls, not every one is going to go your way. And yes the offciating of the NFL has been horrible, I believe there is a reason for that. They (being the refs) are being paid for a certain outcome. Do you understand how much money is betted on these NFL games. A hell of a lot and I am not naive enough to believe it is all on the up and up. If someone can cheat and make a killing doiing it they are gonna find a way to cheat. Paying of the refs is the easiest way to get a desired out come of a game and it happens. I just happen to believe Pittsburg gets more then there fair share of these paid off refs, hell if they are gonna dope there players up with HGH why not pay a few refs off. I am not talking about just the Steelers so quit taking it so personal, I am talking about the NFL as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snatch98 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I addressed your point about the holding calls, not every one is going to go your way. And yes the offciating of the NFL has been horrible, I believe there is a reason for that. They (being the refs) are being paid for a certain outcome. Do you understand how much money is betted on these NFL games. A hell of a lot and I am not naive enough to believe it is all on the up and up. If someone can cheat and make a killing doiing it they are gonna find a way to cheat. Paying of the refs is the easiest way to get a desired out come of a game and it happens. I just happen to believe Pittsburg gets more then there fair share of these paid off refs, hell if they are gonna dope there players up with HGH why not pay a few refs off. I am not talking about just the Steelers so quit taking it so personal, I am talking about the NFL as a whole. No you're being an idiot and nonchalantly address the rest of the NFL. It's amusing, I'll give you that but you lose all credibility with the ridiculous conspiracy theories. It's okay to be bitter but don't be unreasonable. Pittsburgh wins football games because they get "more than their fair share of favorable calls"....it has nothing to do with the organization piecing together a talented football team season after season, year after year? Oh to be a Browns fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOSSY Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 why the Browns aren't taken seriously in football circles. They have no commom sense and picking the Cardinals proves it. Keep trying Browns. You can do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mz. Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 They have no commom sense and picking the Cardinals proves it. While you clearly excel in the common sense category, your sense of humor and sense of fandom is lacking bigtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOSSY Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 "bigtime" is two words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mz. Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Retard is one word. Retard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich4eagle Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 As you know, anything can happen on a single day, Rich. Having stated that disclosure, the Steelers are tougher, smarter, and, simply, a vastly superior team to AZ. I haven't looked at point spreads - mostly because I don't use them for anything useful - but I will be shocked if AZ wins - Remember Lake Placid in 1980 - and will be surprised if the Steelers win by less than 14 - 20 points. We are on the same page John and we both know stuff happens.....the line was 7 yesterday I would think it may creep up a point or two my guess supposing bad penalty calls and turnovers even out is about 17 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownsFan17 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 why the Browns aren't taken seriously in football circles. They have no commom sense and picking the Cardinals proves it. Keep trying Browns. You can do it! Typical Steelers fan. So full of yourself. I just hope your team has that same type of attitude...it will make watching you lose all that much more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOSSY Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 you sound like an angry outsider. I can't help it if the browns don't belong . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdaM Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Better than sounding like a 14-year-old trying as hard as they possibly can to make it look like they have a clue, about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOSSY Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Steelers to get an additional $135,500 (Divisonal Game, Conference Championship Game, Super Bowl winner) The league pays players in a strict formula for all playoff games, and the numbers increase slightly every other year. This is the second year in a row that the formula calls for the following payouts per player in the playoffs: Wild-card games (division winners): $20,000. Wild-card games (fifth- and sixth-seeded teams): $18,000. Divisional games: $20,000. Conference championship games: $37,500. Super Bowl winners: $78,000. Super Bowl losers: $40,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mz. Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Who gives a shit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUNSofSTEEL08 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So , A 9-7 Team who lost to the Patriots 47-7 and Minn. 35-14 is going to win it all ? OK ... But for real barring more than 2 turnovers Pittsburgh Wins 31-21 ! So ...You guys dream on.... Number 6 is at Hand. If Ben Takes care of the Pill , We will be Fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUNSofSTEEL08 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I sure hope you are right and I do blieve the Cards have a chance, their D seems to have greatly improved this post season. I fear and pretty much expect steeler defense to look at taking out Fitz or Boldin with some cheap shots though. They are gonna try and lite those recievers up like a christmas tree. And lets not forget about the Refs, who always seem to throw a flag when the Steelers need it. Ya I know, you will get Steeler fans on here talking about calls that went against them but ofcourse Refs cant call every call in favor of the Steelers, all it takes is a key flag to extend or end a drive that can turn a game. I have seen it happen to many times win it comes to the steelers. Yes the REFS are always "Helping us" Like the BS Sissy Pass Int. call on McFadden against the Ravens on a 3rd down to Give them an early TD. Or the Holmes "Non-Catch" dont you think IF Theye were Chaeting us those calls would ENDED UP in our favor ? What a Retard , better check the curb and see if the "short-bus" is still waiting on you. Or the 8 times the James Harrison was put in a Sleeper Hold by The Ravens LT. You see everything You see through Brown-Stained Glasses. And you sound incredibly asinine ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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