Harvin declares

[Legacy Fan]

Really enjoyed watching this kid abuse opponents in High School & continue to do the same in college.

 

As a WR/RB hybrid, I think Percy is smart to leave this year. Might as well get paid now, instead of waiting for an injury next year (especially since he was semi-plagued this season).

 

I personally don't think he's injury-free enough to fool with in round 1, but if he survives to round 2, he's a no-brainer.

[ballpeen]

I agree....if he is there in round 2....no doubt I would take him.

 

In the pros he is a receiver...and a good one.

 

 

[JewDago]

he's too much of a playmaker to slide to round 2. in the unlikely event he made it past all 32 teams once, detroit's phone would ring off the hook with trade offers for their first pick in round 2 with teams wanting harvin.

[Flugel]

Really enjoyed watching this kid abuse opponents in High School & continue to do the same in college.

 

As a WR/RB hybrid, I think Percy is smart to leave this year. Might as well get paid now, instead of waiting for an injury next year (especially since he was semi-plagued this season).

 

I personally don't think he's injury-free enough to fool with in round 1, but if he survives to round 2, he's a no-brainer.

 

Let me be the first knucklehead to overrate him then because I'd take him at #5 in a NY minute. It's a high ankle sprain so he'll be fine by the end of July. Did anyone listen to what was said about Harvin in the National Championship Game? He bench presses 450 pounds on top of having arguably the best set of playing wheels in college football this year.

 

Looking at that National Championship Game - I saw in Harvin everything our 2008 offense lacked: SPEED, SCORING ABILITY, HOME RUNS & TESTOSTERONE. His play when Florida was backed up against their own goal line rushing for 50 yards showed me freak and unique.

 

I didn't think Harvin would come out or Sanchez for that matter. Here's my new top 2 choices:

If defense - it's Curry

If offense - it's Harvin

 

When is the last time we've had a homerun threat on our roster? If anyone Tivo'd the National Championship - rewatch the game and tell me if you've spotted a more appropriate player to our offensive needs at this time. How many TDs did we score over the last 6 weeks on offense? IMO, the ONLY way you beat zone blitz schemes is by SPEED. You could do alot with a player like Harvin and somebody will.

 

We can do alot worse than Braylon Edwards, Percy Harvin, and Kellen Winslow fetching passes. That'll help out Edwards considerably. Who do you double?

 

The reason we lack playmakers on both sides of the ball is because our team speed is a joke. The scoreboard doesn't lie. My biggest wish is that our NEXT Personnel guru UNDERSTANDS the division he's employed to compete against.

- Tom F.

[Legacy Fan]

Thanks guys. My only real problem with us going after Percy in Rd 1 (outside of our glaring LB deficiencies, plural), is that he's listed at 5-11. Not that he can't make things happen at that height, but we already have a ton of money (Stallworth) & time (Steptoe) invested in a slot receiver role.

 

Only if we magically acquire another #1 or he slips into #2 (not likely) - I'd still hate to not get a guy like that though.

[ballpeen]

he's too much of a playmaker to slide to round 2. in the unlikely event he made it past all 32 teams once, detroit's phone would ring off the hook with trade offers for their first pick in round 2 with teams wanting harvin.

 

I agree....he is going to come off the board by 20....if not....phones will be ringing by 25 with the intent to draft the kid. At that point you don't wait for someone else to draft him. He is easily a top 25 talent....probably better.

 

[Oldcrow1945]

Let me be the first knucklehead to overrate him then because I'd take him at #5 in a NY minute. It's a high ankle sprain so he'll be fine by the end of July. Did anyone listen to what was said about Harvin in the National Championship Game? He bench presses 450 pounds on top of having arguably the best set of playing wheels in college football this year.

 

Looking at that National Championship Game - I saw in Harvin everything our 2008 offense lacked: SPEED, SCORING ABILITY, HOME RUNS & TESTOSTERONE. His play when Florida was backed up against their own goal line rushing for 50 yards showed me freak and unique.

 

I didn't think Harvin would come out or Sanchez for that matter. Here's my new top 2 choices:

If defense - it's Curry

If offense - it's Harvin

 

When is the last time we've had a homerun threat on our roster? If anyone Tivo'd the National Championship - rewatch the game and tell me if you've spotted a more appropriate player to our offensive needs at this time. How many TDs did we score over the last 6 weeks on offense? IMO, the ONLY way you beat zone blitz schemes is by SPEED. You could do alot with a player like Harvin and somebody will.

 

We can do alot worse than Braylon Edwards, Percy Harvin, and Kellen Winslow fetching passes. That'll help out Edwards considerably. Who do you double?

 

The reason we lack playmakers on both sides of the ball is because our team speed is a joke. The scoreboard doesn't lie. My biggest wish is that our NEXT Personnel guru UNDERSTANDS the division he's employed to compete against.

- Tom F.

 

Wow...#5?

 

Don't get too excited about the homerun threat or team speed or the lack thereof. Especially at the WR position.

As a matter of fact, take a look at the top 10 or 15 WR's in the history of the NFL. Not one of them are what could be called "Burners", Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Rice, Largent, Warfield, Carter, Monk, Taylor, Irvin, Harrison, Swan.

 

It's not about speed when it comes to being a good or great WR. It's a combination of things. Intelligence, route running, great hands, etc. (This is also one of the reasons I think Robiskie is being underrated right now, he is or does all of these)

 

Harvin does nothing for me. Unless it's as a punt returner. I think he's a late #1 or early #2.

[ballpeen]

Well, he is more then a punt returner, but i agree...#5 is a big, big reach....if we were sitting around 12 I might start to mention his name

[Flugel]

Wow...#5?

 

Don't get too excited about the homerun threat or team speed or the lack thereof. Especially at the WR position.

As a matter of fact, take a look at the top 10 or 15 WR's in the history of the NFL. Not one of them are what could be called "Burners", Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Rice, Largent, Warfield, Carter, Monk, Taylor, Irvin, Harrison, Swan.

 

It's not about speed when it comes to being a good or great WR. It's a combination of things. Intelligence, route running, great hands, etc. (This is also one of the reasons I think Robiskie is being underrated right now, he is or does all of these)

 

Harvin does nothing for me. Unless it's as a punt returner. I think he's a late #1 or early #2.

 

Thanks for the reply OC45. You make some valid points.

 

However, my thinking is that every Championship caliber team or high powered offensive contender I can think of over the years had a solid/dependable #1 WR complimented by a speedy #2 WR to stretch the defense. Here's some examples:

 

The Steelers had Lynn Swann but their speedster was Stallworth.

The Cowboys had Michael Irvin but the speedster was Alvin Harper.

The Cowboys had Drew Pearson but the speedster was Tony Hill/Golden Richards.

The Cowboys had Lance Allworth but the speedster was Bob Hayes.

The Bills had Andre Reed but the speedster was Don Beebe/James Lofton.

The 85 Bears had somebody and the speedster was Willie Gault.

The Rams had Torry Holt but the speedster was Ike Bruce.

The 49ers had Jerry Rice but the speedster was John Taylor.

The Steelers have Hines Ward but the deep threat is Santonio Holmes.

The 72 Dolphins had Howard Twilley but their speedster was Paul Warfield.

The Chargers used to have Charlie Joiner but their speedsters were James Lofton/John Jefferson/Wes Chandler.

The Browns used to have Webster Slaughter but the deep threat was Reggies Langhornes.

The Redskins had Art Monk but the deep threats were Garys Clarks and Rickys Sanders.

The Vikings had Cris Carter for possession and Randy Moss/Jake Reed to stretch the D.

The Vikings had Ahmad Rashad for possession and Sammy White to stetch the D.

The Eagles used to have Harold Carmichael with Mike Quick as the vertical threat.

The Pats have Wes Welker as the possession receiver with Moss going deep.

The Raiders had Freddie Biletnokpf for possession and Cliff Branch going vertical.

 

And you're right Seattle had a likable,fun Steve Largent but no complement so they were better known as Ground Chuck every post season they got Knoxed out.

 

If we want to progress TODAY - the old mentality that we're gonna run over and through Pittsburgh's FAST defense with guys like Reuben Droughns and Jamal Lewis just hasn't worked. It's not opinion it's 0-for-the length of time we've stayed outdated. A fast zone blitz only adores the slow FBs like Turtelle Smith and Charles Ali leading the lead footed tailbacks. The SLOWER we choose to be - the easier they find us to beat. Again, it's not an opinion - it's a summary of trend.

 

Now, let's suppose they zone blitz us on the weakside where Percy Harvin lines up and we connect on a quick slant - his STRENGTH and speed is what we want to attack the risk they just took with. One missed tackle and we're suddenly looking at TDs we weren't capable of in life before Harvin. I think one really needed to SEE how dynamic and unique a kid like Harvin was for Florida. He did his damage on Oklahoma taking handoffs and maybe that doesn't happen if he's not a kid with the strength, power and explosion of Harvin. Like I said, they raved about his 450 pound bench press which adds up to power you're looking for in an open field runner. Not only that, when you're looking for character you want that kid that LOVES to be #1 in the weight room too. There's your born team leader on and off the field that this team longs for as well.

 

The Browns have Braylon Edwards but NO #2 to get bodies off Edwards so he dropped the most passes of his career. Coincidence? No, he's tired of traffic. It only got worse when Heiden and Winslow left the lineup at the same time.

 

Look at the 4 teams left in the playoffs and tell me which of the teams haven't made a valiant effort to put a solid #2 WR on the field to complement their #1 WR:

Arizona? They got a solid #2 and #3

Philly? Where did they draft DeSean Jackson?

Pitt? What round was Holmes drafted in? And how did he impact their game vrs SD?

Balt? What round was Mark Clayton drafted in? How did he impact the game vrs Tenn?

Now let's look at Tennessee's WRs and remember how far they moved into the playoffs. Same as 2007 right?

 

In conclusion, the BIGGEST thing to remember is that NFL passing game was modernized when they made the move to handcuff DBs with no touchy feely downfield. For example, when NE watched Indy win a SB after they drafted guys like Reggie Wayne, Anthony Gonzales AND Dallas Clark in round 1 to go with Marvin Harrison - how did they respond? They got Randy Moss and Wes Welker not too many seasons after they drafted Ben Watson in round 1. I think it worked to the tune of 16-0 right? Welcome to the NFL today! I say we compete with faster feet and give those scoreboard goose eggs their walking papers.

- Tom F.

[Zombo]

The 85 Bears had somebody and the speedster was Willie Gault.

 

- Tom F.

 

Dennis McKinnon

 

Zombo

[Geech]

The Browns have Braylon Edwards but NO #2 to get bodies off Edwards...

 

- Tom F.

 

I tend to look at it in the opposite. The Browns don't have a #1 and the speedster is Braylon Edwards.

 

-Al

 

[Flugel]

Dennis McKinnon

 

Zombo

 

THANK YOU! I couldn't think of his name for the life of me. You know what's surprising? That's about the only Chicago passing attack I can recall that ever did some serious damage since I've been following the NFL.

- Tom F.

[Oldcrow1945]

Thanks for the reply OC45. You make some valid points.

 

However, my thinking is that every Championship caliber team or high powered offensive contender I can think of over the years had a solid/dependable #1 WR complimented by a speedy #2 WR to stretch the defense. Here's some examples:

 

The Steelers had Lynn Swann but their speedster was Stallworth.

The Cowboys had Michael Irvin but the speedster was Alvin Harper.

The Cowboys had Drew Pearson but the speedster was Tony Hill/Golden Richards.

The Cowboys had Lance Allworth but the speedster was Bob Hayes.

The Bills had Andre Reed but the speedster was Don Beebe/James Lofton.

The 85 Bears had somebody and the speedster was Willie Gault.

The Rams had Torry Holt but the speedster was Ike Bruce.

The 49ers had Jerry Rice but the speedster was John Taylor.

The Steelers have Hines Ward but the deep threat is Santonio Holmes.

The 72 Dolphins had Howard Twilley but their speedster was Paul Warfield.

The Chargers used to have Charlie Joiner but their speedsters were James Lofton/John Jefferson/Wes Chandler.

The Browns used to have Webster Slaughter but the deep threat was Reggies Langhornes.

The Redskins had Art Monk but the deep threats were Garys Clarks and Rickys Sanders.

The Vikings had Cris Carter for possession and Randy Moss/Jake Reed to stretch the D.

The Vikings had Ahmad Rashad for possession and Sammy White to stetch the D.

The Eagles used to have Harold Carmichael with Mike Quick as the vertical threat.

The Pats have Wes Welker as the possession receiver with Moss going deep.

The Raiders had Freddie Biletnokpf for possession and Cliff Branch going vertical.

 

- Tom F.

 

 

Your points are well thought out and I have actually listened to a debate about this very subject. The debate was over the need for a burner and a possesion guy as part of your receiving corps. John Taylor and Jerry Rice amd Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne were used as one example of how it wasn't necessary. Rice and Harrison may very well go down as the NFL's two greatest WR's and both of them lined up on the other side of a field from a guy that was actually slow by some NFL standards. Taylor's 40 times was actually really slow. 4.65 range. Wayne runs about 4.55 coming out of school and in the last few years has been not near that.

 

You mentioned another guy... Hall of Famer John Stallworth...He was another guy that was not fast at all. I even remember reading an article (Post-Gazette, I think) about how Swann's and Stallworth's near 4.6 40 times would cause them to be later round picks in today's NFL....The article centered around the speed issue being overrated.

You mention Hines Ward, but his greatest success came before Holmes. It came with Randle el and or Burris on the other side. Again. Neither were great burners.

 

But your points are well made and very credible. But I will always believe the need for a guy to stretch the field is not really a key to being a success. The three sets I mentioned (Rice and Taylor, Harrison and Wayne, Swann and Stallworth) have really set the bar as far as great tandems go and none were burners.

 

My key to success in football are a great defense and running the ball well.

 

Ya know, if you want a burner though. The Browns have one in Paul Hubbard. Somehwere in the 4.3's

[Flugel]

Your points are well thought out and I have actually listened to a debate about this very subject. The debate was over the need for a burner and a possesion guy as part of your receiving corps. John Taylor and Jerry Rice amd Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne were used as one example of how it wasn't necessary. Rice and Harrison may very well go down as the NFL's two greatest WR's and both of them lined up on the other side of a field from a guy that was actually slow by some NFL standards. Taylor's 40 times was actually really slow. 4.65 range. Wayne runs about 4.55 coming out of school and in the last few years has been not near that.

 

You mentioned another guy... Hall of Famer John Stallworth...He was another guy that was not fast at all. I even remember reading an article (Post-Gazette, I think) about how Swann's and Stallworth's near 4.6 40 times would cause them to be later round picks in today's NFL....The article centered around the speed issue being overrated.

You mention Hines Ward, but his greatest success came before Holmes. It came with Randle el and or Burris on the other side. Again. Neither were great burners.

 

But your points are well made and very credible. But I will always believe the need for a guy to stretch the field is not really a key to being a success. The three sets I mentioned (Rice and Taylor, Harrison and Wayne, Swann and Stallworth) have really set the bar as far as great tandems go and none were burners.

 

My key to success in football are a great defense and running the ball well.

 

Ya know, if you want a burner though. The Browns have one in Paul Hubbard. Somehwere in the 4.3's

 

Thanks for the good discussion stuff.

 

Like Joe Gibbs always said - the Combines are a great tool BUT you gotta look at the film to see if the tools transfer over to the football field. Hubbard and Moss run the same 40 time so it's crucial you break out the game film so you firmly know which guy has GREAT hands and which one has brick hands. The film will tell you who the football player is there.

 

I AGREE about defense and the running game. However, as Ohio State found out when they played Florida's fast defense, power didn't beat speed or come close. In fact, when Ginn got injured after the openning kickoff - game over. Similarly, the reason Cleveland didn't score an offensive TD vrs Pittsburgh this year is because their defense was much faster than our offense. When that happens, you can't spread them out vertically or horizontally so they cheat up in run support with 0 risk for doing so (and they win the numbers game up front most of the time). Seen it for 8 straight defeats now. It's time we change that formula or continue losing. You can't win if you can't score TDs.

 

Harvin looks like the TYPE of weapon that would REALLY create a synergistic effect among our receivers because WHO would opponents double? And if you do a zone a zone blitz, Harvin can score from a short route. The beauty of researching him would be to learn the innovative ways Urban Myers used him. How many WRs are as strong as he is? That being the case, you can do more things with him. All I can say is check him out on film and compare and contrast what he has vrs what we used to score 0 TDs in our last 6 weeks.

 

I haven't seen anyone running over and through Pittsburgh recently using 1960s schemes and mentalities. Today's game is changing to favor the passing game with the rules handcuffing DBs. I just want to add prongs of attack that can score points. We lost 2 games 10-6 because we had no team speed on offense. Ironically, Indy's defense scored the go ahead points on our offense.

- Tom F.

[JewDago]

there's timed speed and then there's football speed, the latter a quantity far more similar to what joe gibbs was looking for.

 

stallworth, swann, taylor and wayne don't have great timed speed, but they all have more than adequate football speed, especially wayne (i'm too young to have seen stallworth and swann). though he doesn't have great speed, reggie wayne finds ways to get open deep far more often than he should. it's part of what makes him an exceptional receiver.

 

stallworth and swann also played in a different era. a 4.6 40 was likely fast enough to burn plenty of guys then. there were still guys that could run 4.4s and 4.3s, but they were truly exceptional. they're the same guys that are running 4.2s now.

 

plaxico, while not the fastest guy, is enough of a deep threat because of his combination of speed and size. while he's not going to outrun people, his speed is adequate for deep routes, and once the ball's in the air, he can use his size to come down with the ball. he doesn't stretch the field in the traditional sense because he's not going to run past anyone, but a QB can lob him a deep jump ball that he can come down with for a 40-yard gain, so he's still a vertical threat.

 

harvin's blend of speed and power is uncommon if not entirely unique, and he could just as easily flatten a DB as he could outrun one. whoever drafts him will get a great offensive weapon that can function in myriad ways: a true all-purpose threat.

 

the only problem is that i don't see him as a polished route runner, something he'd need to work diligently to perfect if he wants to be successful. he could rely on his speed in college to get open. in the NFL, he'll have to be shiftier, cagey. he should study guys like ward and wayne. they get open because they're great, not because they outrun people. if he can learn route running and pair it with his speed, vision and power, he'll be damn near unstoppable.

 

speed will always trump power, especially because the speed guys keep getting stronger.

 

despite this evaluation of harvin, i still think we need to bolster our defense before we think about adding offensive weapons, no matter how unique or potent they are.

[Zombo]

THANK YOU! I couldn't think of his name for the life of me. You know what's surprising? That's about the only Chicago passing attack I can recall that ever did some serious damage since I've been following the NFL.

- Tom F.

 

The 85 Bears were probably my favorite non-Browns team of all time.

 

They just humiliated you, completely ripped your offensive gameplan to shreds.

 

Then they had Sweetness, the punky QB, Iron Mike, BuddyBall and they made the greatest music video of all time:

 

 

Zombo

--Hoping Rob Ryan brings us our version of his Dad's badassness

[Flugel]

The 85 Bears were probably my favorite non-Browns team of all time.

 

They just humiliated you, completely ripped your offensive gameplan to shreds.

 

Then they had Sweetness, the punky QB, Iron Mike, BuddyBall and they made the greatest music video of all time:

 

 

Zombo

--Hoping Rob Ryan brings us our version of his Dad's badassness

 

I HEAR ya! Hard to think of a better trio of LBers than Otis Wilson, Wilbur Marshall and Mike Singletary back in 85. How much disability did they cause to QBs around the league?

- Tom F. (And then you get a candyass like Roethlisberger today who's petrified of our LBers. Good thing Willie McGinest is the same age as Willie Nelson or we'd be wondering what quarter Byron's Leftnut gets benched for Charlie's Beyotch)