TRAVIS HAFNER

[SiperBowl]

Indians DH TRAVIS HAFNER recently underwent a 12-week re-check in Birmingham, Alabama with Dr James Andrews. Andrews performed an arthroscopic debridement (clean out) of Hafner’s right shoulder joint in Birmingham on October 14th.

 

Travis continues to progress well from the procedure and has been cleared by Dr. Andrews to initiate pre-hitting activities at Progressive Field this week. These activities will culminate with a return to hitting program in mid-January.

 

[JohnG71097]

Indians DH TRAVIS HAFNER recently underwent a 12-week re-check in Birmingham, Alabama with Dr James Andrews. Andrews performed an arthroscopic debridement (clean out) of Hafner’s right shoulder joint in Birmingham on October 14th.

 

Travis continues to progress well from the procedure and has been cleared by Dr. Andrews to initiate pre-hitting activities at Progressive Field this week. These activities will culminate with a return to hitting program in mid-January.

 

 

From A.C.

 

CLEVELAND -- Pronk dropped some pounds.

That much is noticeable the second you see Indians designated hitter Travis Hafner these days. Hafner, who met with the media in the Indians clubhouse on Thursday, said he's lost about 10 pounds since the end of the 2008 season, bringing his fighting weight to about 250.

 

When he underwent arthroscopic surgery on his weak right shoulder in October, Hafner knew he'd be doing a lot of sitting around in the month that followed. So he started eating healthier.

 

"A lot of it is just not going out to restaurants as much," he said. "We've been eating at home a lot and trying to do the low-fat stuff."

 

Then he paused.

 

"And maybe a couple beers here and there," he said with a smile.

 

Hafner's weight has been a subject of conversation and concern among fans who have seen him around town this winter. The line of thinking among that segment is that a guy who hit just .197 with five homers and 24 RBIs in what limited time he spent on the field last season needs all the body strength he can get.

 

But the 31-year-old man known as Pronk didn't seem at all worried about how his weight loss might affect his performance. He's much more focused on the strength of his shoulder, which, he said, is feeling better all the time, now that it's been cleaned out by the renowned Dr. James Andrews.

 

"It's a night and day difference from this summer," Hafner said. "This summer, I'd do a set of 10 [repetitions in lifting workouts], and it would take three to five minutes to recover. Now I can just hop in between with no rest at all. Just in general, it feels like it's getting back to normal."

 

Can Hafner get back to what used to be considered his normal production? That's the $11.5 million question, as the Indians enter 2009.

 

Hafner will receive that salary as part of the four-year, $57 million extension he signed with the Indians midway through the 2007 season -- a season that was viewed as a bit of a disappointment, even though Hafner drove in 100 runs for the fourth straight year.

 

The 2008 campaign was supposed to be Hafner's chance to rebound. Instead, the shoulder began bothering him in Spring Training, and the season proper was nothing short of a disaster. A light-hitting Hafner was shut down in late May and didn't return to action until September. His bat speed was noticeably slower, and his timing never got on track.

 

"I don't think you can blame everything on the shoulder," he said. "There's pitches you know you should hit, and I definitely missed a lot of things. It was tough to get in any kind of groove where I consistently felt good for a while."

 

The long summer rest-and-rehab process Pronk endured didn't do much to help the shoulder. It was at about 75 percent strength when he returned to the Tribe in September but it only got weaker as the month wore on.

 

"You knew something wasn't right," he said.

 

At season's end, Hafner visited Andrews, who recommended the arthroscopic surgery.

 

The question was raised whether Hafner felt it would have been in his best interest to just have the surgery when he initially went on the disabled list.

 

"I wouldn't have done anything different, because the MRI didn't show that surgery needed to be done immediately," Hafner said. "So you rehab it. That's what the doctor said to do. But the rate of improvement was so slow, and it only got to 75 percent."

 

Following surgery, Hafner began physical therapy and eventually started to work out again at Progressive Field. Earlier this month, Andrews cleared him to increase his shoulder strengthening exercises, and, on Monday, Pronk will be ready to swing a bat for the first time since season's end.

 

The return-to-hit program will begin with dry swings, then progress to swings off a tee, swings against soft toss and, finally, swings in regular batting practice. Hafner will go through this progression at the Indians' new spring facility in Goodyear, Ariz., where he'll report next week.

 

"If everything goes well, I'm hoping by the time we start camp it's feeling pretty good," Hafner said. "Hopefully I should be able to start playing games once Spring Training games start [on Feb. 25]. My ultimate goal is to be 100 percent by Opening Day."

 

Having missed so much time last year, Hafner was asked how long it will take him to get his timing back.

 

"The thing with baseball is you're never sure how long it's going to take for your timing to get back," he said. "Every year in Spring Training, it's a different amount of time to get your timing."

 

But Hafner, as expected, is confident he can get back to his old self, from a production standpoint. The Indians certainly would stand to benefit from having the guy who hit .308 with 42 homers and 117 RBIs in 2006.

 

"I don't see any reason why I can't be productive," he said. "I think I can have better years than I've had in the past. I'm a guy everybody expects to be in the middle of the order and drive in 100 runs. If you're not getting that, you're asking people to do more, and you're putting young players in positions they're not supposed to be in."

 

Hafner said he's not expecting any recurrence of the shoulder weakness that plagued him last year, and he's genuinely excited to start playing again.

 

And he offered caution to anybody who thinks the weight loss will make him more of a stolen base threat.

 

"Just because I lost a few pounds," he said with a smile, "doesn't mean I'm any faster."

 

But the Indians sure hope he finds his form in a hurry.

 

 

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/arti...sp&c_id=cle

 

 

 

[ballpeen]

Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????

 

Jason Giambi???

[CIMO.]

Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????

 

Jason Giambi???

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me either way, really (whether he is/was juicing or not). I guess every team's fans think their guys are above the rest of the league, but something about Hafner always seemed different.

 

Hard to argue that his career has looked an awful lot like Sammy Sosa's (on a smaller scale) though. When Sammy came back to play for Texas he also looked about 20 or 30 pounds lighter than his 60 HR years. That said I'd gladly take the 21 HR and 92 RBI Sosa put up in his Rangers stint.

[Guest Masters]

Ugh, seriously, the steroid angle?!?!?!

 

Comparing to Giambi is just plain silly. Unless of course you decide to ignore the 10 other issues Giambi had after getting off the roids. Hafner has a shoulder issue and it's body breaking down.... It's 10lbs, not 60lbs.

[Guest Masters]

Hard to argue that his career has looked an awful lot like Sammy Sosa's (on a smaller scale) though. When Sammy came back to play for Texas he also looked about 20 or 30 pounds lighter than his 60 HR years. That said I'd gladly take the 21 HR and 92 RBI Sosa put up in his Rangers stint.

 

One down year (which still was 25HRs, 100RBIs, while getting a career high in AB, games played, and opposing teams started to put the huge shift on him), and a year where he had a bum shoulder, is not even close to looking like Sammy Sosa.

 

I don't know if Hafner ever juiced, but there is nothing, with out reaching, to suggest he was.

[Beanpot]

Ugh, seriously, the steroid angle?!?!?!

 

Comparing to Giambi is just plain silly. Unless of course you decide to ignore the 10 other issues Giambi had after getting off the roids. Hafner has a shoulder issue and it's body breaking down.... It's 10lbs, not 60lbs.

 

I don't find the suggestion to be at all silly. A power hitter with tissue issues leading to weight loss once steroid testing is in place? There's nothing silly about the suggestion that steroids had something to do with that. Still, Hafner always struck me as being country strong. The fact is none of us know what brought about the quick apex and nadir of his career path. Could be something as simple as strong guy loses his strength due to injury or it could be far more sinister.

 

FWIW, Wedge addressed Hafner's weight loss and other issues in this piece from Castro:

 

Indians hold 'Town Hall' Q&A session

Tribe fans' questions answered by skipper, club executives

By Anthony Castrovince / MLB.com

 

SOLON, Ohio -- Outside, the temperature was 3 degrees, with a wind chill making it feel like minus 16.

 

So when Indians vice president of public relations Bob DiBiasio reminded the current and former season-ticket holders who gathered at Solon High School for a "Town Hall" meeting with Tribe higher-ups that Opening Day was just 85 days away, it was welcome news on this frigid Thursday night.

 

But plenty of other information came out of this session in which fans could prod manager Eric Wedge, scouting director John Mirabelli and executive vice president of business Dennis Lehman for information about their beloved ballclub.

 

It was the third and final time this week in which the Indians, in an effort to reach out to their fans, held a question-and-answer session in the 'burbs. The first took place Monday night, when general manager Mark Shapiro and club president Paul Dolan appeared at Brecksville-Broadview Heights High School, and the second was held at Westlake High School, where Wedge and assistant general manager Chris Antonetti appeared.

 

The goal of the hour-long panels was to provide a sounding board in which the fans who most directly impact the Indians' revenue streams could both voice their opinions and have their questions answered directly. And the questions Thursday night covered a broad range of topics, some of which are highlighted here.

 

How will the playing time at first base, catcher and designated hitter be divided among Victor Martinez, Kelly Shoppach, Ryan Garko and Travis Hafner?

 

Wedge said Martinez will remain an everyday player, bouncing back and forth between catcher and first base, Hafner will remain the everyday DH, Shoppach will get more playing time than the average backup and Garko will get a little less playing time than he had in '08.

 

"Shop's done it for a half a year," Wedge said. "We'll see how real it is. I think it is real, as long as he doesn't get complacent."

 

Wedge revealed that Garko will get some repetitions in the outfield during Spring Training, though he admitted he has no idea how that little experiment will go. Wedge said Garko has to produce runs, plain and simple, to make up for some of his defensive shortcomings and his lack of power and speed.

 

"He's slower than everybody in here," Wedge joked.

 

What makes you believe Hafner can return to his old form, following shoulder surgery?

 

Wedge talked about the mental, physical and fundamental sides of the game, and how they all impact each other.

 

"With Travis, it's the physical that's led to the mental and fundamental," Wedge said. "We've cleaned [the shoulder] out and rehabbed the problem. And he looks good."

 

Wedge also commented on Hafner's notable weight loss since season's end.

 

"He looks the way he's supposed to look," Wedge said. "When he's sleek, he's still strong, but he's loose. His chest isn't getting in the way. Worst-case scenario, he's a championship middle-of-the-order bat."

 

Does Hafner need Lasik surgery, like Jhonny Peralta had performed?

 

Wedge assured the crowd that Hafner has been tested thoroughly, from a medical standpoint. He thinks the problem is that Hafner put himself in a poor position to read pitches.

 

"When you're in a position to see the baseball, either you're seeing it, or you're not seeing it," Wedge said. "He made changes to compensate for his shoulder."

 

Will Grady Sizemore ever move from the leadoff spot to No. 3?

 

"As soon as we get a legit leadoff hitter, we'll move [sizemore] to the three-hole," Wedge said. "But I don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul. If your leadoff hitter isn't getting on, it does you no good to have Grady at No. 3."

 

Wedge also said he'd like to see Sizemore shorten up his stroke in two-strike counts, on occasion, to help lessen his strikeout total. But he admitted it's a tough adjustment for Sizemore to make.

 

"It's like talking about a guy who sprints all over the place," Wedge said, "and you're asking him to jog for a while."

 

Has the local economic climate affected ticket sales?

 

"We're all concerned about it," Lehman said. "We're watching it closely. We don't have a lot of info on how season tickets will go. We've lost some, but we've gained some others. Our corporate sponsorship sales are doing much better."

 

Lehman noted that single-game tickets don't go on sale until Feb. 28. DiBiasio pointed out that Opening Day tickets are still available.

 

Does prospect Matt LaPorta have any chance of making the big league club out of camp?

 

Don't bet on it. LaPorta, the key acquisition in the CC Sabathia trade, is likely ticketed for Triple-A Columbus.

 

"He's less than a year and a half removed from college baseball, and you could make the argument that he hasn't had a full season of pro ball yet," Mirabelli said. "In the long run, for him to reach his ceiling, he needs to get seasoned."

 

Will Peralta ever move to third base?

 

Wedge called Peralta the "best shortstop, when it comes to making the average play, in all of baseball," which was certainly high praise. But Wedge did admit that Peralta has issues with range because of his size.

 

Wedge said the Indians would have moved Peralta if they acquired a shortstop or second baseman this offseason, and he believes Peralta can handle the hot corner.

 

Will Cliff Lee be offered a contract extension?

 

"He's a guy we would love to have here," Mirabelli said. "He would be worth the investment. We'll be aggressive in that regard, I'm sure."

 

How did the club go from 16 games below .500 in July to an even .500 at season's end in '08?

 

Wedge used this question as an opportunity to discuss the mentality he's emphasized to his players over the years.

 

"You don't play hard or respect the game or be a good teammate just because you're in contention or it's a sunny day or you're at home," Wedge said. "You have to do those things every day. Some family out there saved up their money so they could go to this one game. You have a responsibility to play for them. Our kids understand that."

 

Anthony Castrovince is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...rtnerId=rss_cle

 

Beanpot

[Beanpot]

One down year (which still was 25HRs, 100RBIs, while getting a career high in AB, games played, and opposing teams started to put the huge shift on him), and a year where he had a bum shoulder, is not even close to looking like Sammy Sosa.

 

True. Sammy Sosa didn't come close to having the sort of decline Hafner did in his age 30 season. Then again, steroid testing wasn't in place that year.

 

I have no freaking clue if Pronk was a roid junkie. But pointing at his "down year" - when he had ~50 fewer total bases than the prior season - even with far more plate appearances, isn't exactly a point in the favor of those who suggest he was clean.

 

Pronk is not even close to looking like Sammy Sosa for one reason - he hasn't had Sosa's level of sustained success.

 

Beanpot

[Guest Masters]

I don't find the suggestion to be at all silly. A power hitter with tissue issues leading to weight loss once steroid testing is in place? There's nothing silly about the suggestion that steroids had something to do with that. Still, Hafner always struck me as being country strong. The fact is none of us know what brought about the quick apex and nadir of his career path. Could be something as simple as strong guy loses his strength due to injury or it could be far more sinister.

 

 

Beanpot

 

It wasn't a tissue issue. It was ligiment, muscle, or cartilage issue. You don't have arthroscopic surgery on tissue. It is for torn floating cartilage, torn surface cartilage, ACL reconstruction, and trimming damaged cartilage.

 

And losing 10lbs is not a weight loss issue. Dudes on roids that go off don't only lose 10lbs.

 

If have pain in your shoulder, it will effect your power and swing.

[Guest Masters]

True. Sammy Sosa didn't come close to having the sort of decline Hafner did in his age 30 season. Then again, steroid testing wasn't in place that year.

 

I have no freaking clue if Pronk was a roid junkie. But pointing at his "down year" - when he had ~50 fewer total bases than the prior season - even with far more plate appearances, isn't exactly a point in the favor of those who suggest he was clean.

 

Pronk is not even close to looking like Sammy Sosa for one reason - he hasn't had Sosa's level of sustained success.

 

Beanpot

 

Okay, first look at Pronks career stats. When you look at that, 2007 was not really that far out of line, other than his HR total being down. But he wouldn't be the first to have that and won't be the last. Throw in he was working on a new contract and got one in 2007. It is routine for guys with that going on to have drop in product (in all sports), because their head isn't in the game fully (not just during games, but practice, etc.).

 

Fewer base hits is not a link in any way to steriods. Steriods don't make guys better hitters as far as total hits or average. If they did, then McGuire would have been a much better hitter than he really was. They make power numbers go up, not average or total hits.

 

I think it's just sad that any time a power hitter has an injury or a drop everyone assumes a guy had to have been juicing and that's what the drop. It is like now going back and thinking Ken Griffey Jr. was juicing and that's why he had injuries, off year, and a decline.

[CIMO.]

Griffey came into the league as a teenager, the greatest prospect of all time. And yeah, I'll throw in the fact that he's been skinny his whole career. Hafner didn't even crack a major league roster until he was 25, then the Tribe took him off the Rangers scrap heap and he had his first good year at age 27. In the historic sense Sosa is completely different, Hafner still has about 450 dingers to catch him. I was just noticing the fact that both came up with the Rangers, rose from nowhere to be some of the best hitters in the sport, a sudden fall, and then a noticeable weight loss.

 

Like I said, if it's just a legit injury I wouldn't be surprised at all. But if he was juicing and this is all a result, that wouldn't surprise me either.

[Guest Masters]

And how are we getting from "Pronk dropped some pounds. That much is noticeable the second you see Indians designated hitter Travis Hafner these days. Hafner, who met with the media in the Indians clubhouse on Thursday, said he's lost about 10 pounds since the end of the 2008 season, bringing his fighting weight to about 250." to a significantly noticeable weight loss? I mean I know people who I could go a few months w/o seeing and I could notice a loss of 10lbs.

 

Every player develops at different rates. So when he finally broke into the majors is not a rational for anything. I can find anyone dozens of power hitters who developed late, as far as reaching the majors as a player. Pronks big problem we developing his strike zone. And he had a heck of a good season his first full year with the Tribe at 26 in 2004 (unless you don't like 28HR and 100+ RBI's).

 

I wouldn't be shocked if he juiced, but again, it's just the quick jump to that assumption I find unfair and unwarented. It's a pretzel logic that could be used on every pro athlete with an injury or an off year.

 

[Beanpot]

Okay, first look at Pronks career stats. When you look at that, 2007 was not really that far out of line, other than his HR total being down.

 

Respectfully, 2007 was FAR out of line with his prior seasons. His isolated power dipped from .350 to .185, his lowest number since his rookie year in Texas. Coupled with a drop in OPS from 1.097 to .837, I don't quite understand how one can look at his 2007 season and come to the conclusion that it was "not really that far out of line" with his recent performance.

 

Fewer base hits is not a link in any way to steriods.

 

Terrific. Allowing for the fact that you have no idea if fewer base hits are linked in any way to steroids, I referenced total bases. Which was just a quick look at his overall performance. Feel free to use ISO, RAA, RC or any stat to your liking.

 

Steriods don't make guys better hitters as far as total hits or average. If they did, then McGuire would have been a much better hitter than he really was. They make power numbers go up, not average or total hits.

 

To continue with the respectfully theme, you are either the leading authority on all things steroids or you're simply talking out of your ass. I'll go with latter after reading everything you wrote after "if they did". Look, you have no earthly idea if steroids make guys better hitters as far as total hits and average and numerous studies have been done that suggest that they do little to enhance power numbers. The entire topic bores me to tears, but I'll dig up some studies that disprove your suggestion if you honestly care to continue.

 

While admitting that it's not exactly a representative sample, the Mitchell Report suggests that "they" don't make power numbers go up in the slightest. As to your McGwire reference, do you honestly think he's a data point and not an outlier? I find it quite simple to say that if it didn't happen to A, it won't happen to the rest of the alphabet. Of course, it actually *did* happen to A, as McGwire was a much better hitter in terms of total bases and average during the window of suspected use.

 

I think it's just sad that any time a power hitter has an injury or a drop everyone assumes a guy had to have been juicing and that's what the drop. It is like now going back and thinking Ken Griffey Jr. was juicing and that's why he had injuries, off year, and a decline.

 

Sad? Christ-on-a-stick man, conjecture about an athlete gives you the blues? I find it sad (not in that way) that there are people who refuse to acknowledge the possibility that an athlete may have used PEDs. I also find those that do so to be incredibly naive.

 

Beanpot

[Beanpot]

It wasn't a tissue issue. It was ligiment, muscle, or cartilage issue. You don't have arthroscopic surgery on tissue. It is for torn floating cartilage, torn surface cartilage, ACL reconstruction, and trimming damaged cartilage.

 

It most certainly was a tissue issue:

 

Dr. James Andrews performed the 45-minute procedure. In a statement, the Indians said Hafner underwent a debridement, or cleaning, of his right shoulder joint. Hafner's strained shoulder kept him on the disabled list from May 30 through Sept. 8.

Assuming you're in the medical profession, I suggest you read up on debridement:

 

Debridement is a medical term referring to the removal of dead, damaged, or infected tissue to improve the healing potential of the remaining healthy tissue. Removal may be surgical, mechanical, chemical, autolytic (self-digestion), and by maggot therapy, where certain species of live maggots selectively eat only necrotic tissue.

 

Beanpot

 

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2...hafners_sh.html

[Guest Masters]

Respectfully, 2007 was FAR out of line with his prior seasons. His isolated power dipped from .350 to .185, his lowest number since his rookie year in Texas. Coupled with a drop in OPS from 1.097 to .837, I don't quite understand how one can look at his 2007 season and come to the conclusion that it was "not really that far out of line" with his recent performance.

 

The only real number out of line was his HR's, which have a drastic impact on the OPS (which this made up stat came into existance like 4 years ago), along with his OBS being down (which when average is down this will be). After all OPS is just OBP + Slugging. He had more hits, 6 less doubles, and his average dropped. So yes, I don't think he was that far out of line, at least from potentially being nothing more than an off year in HRs. It happens to all kinds of guys.

 

Terrific. Allowing for the fact that you have no idea if fewer base hits are linked in any way to steroids, I referenced total bases. Which was just a quick look at his overall performance. Feel free to use ISO, RAA, RC or any stat to your liking.

 

Of course I can't say with 100% certainty that hits aren't influenced by steroids. But steroids don't increase a persons hand eye coordination. That is why I personally don't draw the conclusion of hits/average and steroids. If you hit 15 less HR, of course your total bases are down. You get 4 total bases for HR.

 

To continue with the respectfully theme, you are either the leading authority on all things steroids or you're simply talking out of your ass. I'll go with latter after reading everything you wrote after "if they did". Look, you have no earthly idea if steroids make guys better hitters as far as total hits and average and numerous studies have been done that suggest that they do little to enhance power numbers. The entire topic bores me to tears, but I'll dig up some studies that disprove your suggestion if you honestly care to continue. .

 

Did I claim to be? Jesus dude.

 

While admitting that it's not exactly a representative sample, the Mitchell Report suggests that "they" don't make power numbers go up in the slightest. As to your McGwire reference, do you honestly think he's a data point and not an outlier? I find it quite simple to say that if it didn't happen to A, it won't happen to the rest of the alphabet. Of course, it actually *did* happen to A, as McGwire was a much better hitter in terms of total bases and average during the window of suspected use. .

 

I am starting to question if you know how total bases are calculated. Gee, if I get more dingers or doubles, my total bases won't go up?

 

Sad? Christ-on-a-stick man, conjecture about an athlete gives you the blues? I find it sad (not in that way) that there are people who refuse to acknowledge the possibility that an athlete may have used PEDs. I also find those that do so to be incredibly naive.

 

Jumping to a wild accusation about someone taking performance enhancing drugs based on one shoulder injury (which was called normal wear/tear issue from a baseball swing by James Andrews) is what I find sad. It's not that I don't think guys have or still do. I just don't believe in jumping to that conclusion and making that accusation with zero credible evidence to support it like you did. That is what I find sad.

 

 

 

[Guest Masters]

It most certainly was a tissue issue:

 

Dr. James Andrews performed the 45-minute procedure. In a statement, the Indians said Hafner underwent a debridement, or cleaning, of his right shoulder joint. Hafner's strained shoulder kept him on the disabled list from May 30 through Sept. 8.

Assuming you're in the medical profession, I suggest you read up on debridement:

 

Debridement is a medical term referring to the removal of dead, damaged, or infected tissue to improve the healing potential of the remaining healthy tissue. Removal may be surgical, mechanical, chemical, autolytic (self-digestion), and by maggot therapy, where certain species of live maggots selectively eat only necrotic tissue.

 

Beanpot

 

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2...hafners_sh.html

 

And when you read what the Cleveland Indians said:

 

"Hafner had what the Indians are calling successful arthroscopic surgery on the shoulder. The 45-minute procedure was performed by Dr. James Andrews at St. Vincent Hospital in Birmingham, Ala.

 

Essentially, the procedure cleaned out Hafner's shoulder joint, removing chronic changes brought about by the grind of baseball. Hafner will begin physical therapy at Progressive Field on Thursday and the Indians expect him to be at 100 percent strength by the start of the 2009 season"

 

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/arti...sp&c_id=cle

 

All I have to say about the end of your post is we all know what assuming does.

 

You obviously don't realize what a general/generic term tissue is, when refering to the human body.

[Beanpot]

The only real number out of line was his HR's, which have a drastic impact on the OPS (which this made up stat came into existance like 4 years ago), along with his OBS being down (which when average is down this will be). After all OPS is just OBP + Slugging. He had more hits, 6 less doubles, and his average dropped. So yes, I don't think he was that far out of line, at least from potentially being nothing more than an off year in HRs. It happens to all kinds of guys.

 

Wow. First, I have no idea what you mean by OBS. Must be one of those made up stats. Concerning OPS, it's been around for 25 years. Been in existence forever, though it has only found its way on the back of baseball cards in the last four years so that's what you must be talking about.

 

The "only real number" thing? You're that guy? Awesome. I've met the rest of your family all over the internet.

 

Hafner's walk rate dropped from 18.1 to 15.8, his OBP from .439 to .385, his SLG from .659 to .451, his OPS from 1.097 to .837, his ISO from .350 to .185 and his BABIP from .326 to .298. And to you, that's simply explained away by a drop in home runs. I must say, I admire your innocence. Not your inquisitiveness so much, but that sadness at the suggestion of steroid use is very cute.

 

Of course I can't say with 100% certainty that hits aren't influenced by steroids. But steroids don't increase a persons hand eye coordination. That is why I personally don't draw the conclusion of hits/average and steroids. If you hit 15 less HR, of course your total bases are down. You get 4 total bases for HR.

 

This is why I can't take you seriously. You say that "steroids don't increase a persons hand/eye coordination" while that very topic is the source of much debate.

 

For every Bobby Valentine comment about steroids not being injected in the eyes, there's a comment from Tony Gwynn about steroids improving muscle responses and hand/eye coordination. Or as Lee Jenkins wrote in the New York Times:

 

But their uncertain influence on a player's strength, bat speed, hand-eye coordination and confidence has become a source of debate

 

According to you, the debate is finished and there's little to discuss.

 

I am starting to question if you know how total bases are calculated. Gee, if I get more dingers or doubles, my total bases won't go up?

 

That's nothing. I'm starting to question if you're not my sister. She's a big baseball fan but she struggles with stats and logic. I'm just happy she's a fan. Ignoring the back and forth, I feel the same way about you.

 

Jumping to a wild accusation about someone taking performance enhancing drugs based on one shoulder injury (which was called normal wear/tear issue from a baseball swing by James Andrews) is what I find sad. It's not that I don't think guys have or still do. I just don't believe in jumping to that conclusion and making that accusation with zero credible evidence to support it like you did. That is what I find sad.

 

Ah, now I understand fully. You just struggle with words. Absolutely nothing to be ashamed of and I've had experience with others who suffer from your illness. We'll just go through it slowly together, ok? Now, you came to the conclusion that I "jump(ed) to that conclusion (that Hafner used steroids) and ma(de) that accusation with zero credible evidence to support it like (I) did." And that brought about sadness.

 

Now let's go through this thread together, ok? Here, take my hand and we're going to move up just a wee bit.

 

Now here's where I entered the thread. I posted a reply to (what I thought to be) a suggestion that it was silly to assume that Hafner had ever taken steroids. So I wrote:

 

I don't find the suggestion to be at all silly. A power hitter with tissue issues leading to weight loss once steroid testing is in place? There's nothing silly about the suggestion that steroids had something to do with that. Still, Hafner always struck me as being country strong. The fact is none of us know what brought about the quick apex and nadir of his career path. Could be something as simple as strong guy loses his strength due to injury or it could be far more sinister.

I followed that with a post that dealt with the drop in his productivity:

 

True. Sammy Sosa didn't come close to having the sort of decline Hafner did in his age 30 season. Then again, steroid testing wasn't in place that year.

 

I have no freaking clue if Pronk was a roid junkie. But pointing at his "down year" - when he had ~50 fewer total bases than the prior season - even with far more plate appearances, isn't exactly a point in the favor of those who suggest he was clean.

 

Next thing I read, you're claiming that allowing for the possibility is the same as an accusation:

 

Jumping to a wild accusation about someone taking performance enhancing drugs based on one shoulder injury (which was called normal wear/tear issue from a baseball swing by James Andrews) is what I find sad. It's not that I don't think guys have or still do. I just don't believe in jumping to that conclusion and making that accusation with zero credible evidence to support it like you did. That is what I find sad.

 

You know what I find sad? Ignorance.

 

Beampot

[Beanpot]

You obviously don't realize what a general/generic term tissue is, when refering to the human body.

 

And you obviously struggle with simple spelling. But let's forget that. Yes, I was very serious about my tissue comment (I thought like mad the maggot inclusion would have caused the 40 watt to go off above your head) but that wasn't the case. Any way, it seems like we hate one another. I pretty much reserve my Browns Board hatred for Rich, but I'll expand the umbrella if you want some go time.

 

God, the added audience here is a blessing and a curse.

 

Beanpot

[ballpeen]

Sorry I brought it up.

[Guest Masters]

And you obviously struggle with simple spelling. But let's forget that. Yes, I was very serious about my tissue comment (I thought like mad the maggot inclusion would have caused the 40 watt to go off above your head) but that wasn't the case. Any way, it seems like we hate one another. I pretty much reserve my Browns Board hatred for Rich, but I'll expand the umbrella if you want some go time.

 

God, the added audience here is a blessing and a curse.

 

Beanpot

 

Buddy, I don't hate you or even dislike you. Now being condesending....

 

[Guest Masters]

Wow. First, I have no idea what you mean by OBS. Must be one of those made up stats. Concerning OPS, it's been around for 25 years. Been in existence forever, though it has only found its way on the back of baseball cards in the last four years so that's what you must be talking about.

 

 

It was a typo. I meant OBP. As for OPS, it is baseball's version of a QB rating. You can put stock in it if you want. I don't. But according to you, if I don't put stock in every stat you do, I must not know anything. *yawn*

 

The "only real number" thing? You're that guy? Awesome. I've met the rest of your family all over the internet.

 

 

And your one of those guys. You know the type. Your OPINION is fact and no others can differ *sigh*

 

Hafner's walk rate dropped from 18.1 to 15.8, his OBP from .439 to .385, his SLG from .659 to .451, his OPS from 1.097 to .837, his ISO from .350 to .185 and his BABIP from .326 to .298. And to you, that's simply explained away by a drop in home runs. I must say, I admire your innocence. Not your inquisitiveness so much, but that sadness at the suggestion of steroid use is very cute.

 

So now steroids impact walks? Here I thought it came down to pitches. Yeah, his walks were down. And? SLG and OPS are both greatly impacted by a reduction in HR. I just showed how the OPS is calculated. What are the two things that make it up? Oh yes, it's OBP and SLG. Gee, if my slugging is down why oh why would my OPS drop significatantly? It's not lack of inquisitive, it's understanding math. Stats are pretty useless if you don't understand how they are achieved. Slugging is total bases (so Travis in 07 lost roughly 60 TB by having less HRs, or roughly .100 points off the SLG by getting that many less HR), while getting 100 more ABs, which is what TB is devided by to get you that SLG. See how easy less HRs can impact the slugging?

 

For the OPS, his AB went up 100 but walks and SO were pretty much the same between 2006 and 2007, as well as total hits. Why golly gee, perhaps he was just lining out more, especially with the shift teams started putting on him. That's gonna be a big hit on the OBP. You know the other half of the OPS. But I guess whe should assume all players will do more with an extra 100 ABs, rather than it possibly taking a toll on a player (or the players shoulder that he jerks practically out of place with every swing).

 

This is why I can't take you seriously. You say that "steroids don't increase a persons hand/eye coordination" while that very topic is the source of much debate.

 

For every Bobby Valentine comment about steroids not being injected in the eyes, there's a comment from Tony Gwynn about steroids improving muscle responses and hand/eye coordination. Or as Lee Jenkins wrote in the New York Times:

 

But their uncertain influence on a player's strength, bat speed, hand-eye coordination and confidence has become a source of debate

 

According to you, the debate is finished and there's little to discuss.

 

So what you go to show is how inclussive so many things are about the impact of steroids, yet the first assumption and accusation you make on a player is steriod use. See why I can't you seriously? I certainly don't think the debate is finished. But it's so damn inconslusive I won't latch on to everything and instantly jump to conclusions about any player who has their first injury or their first off year.

 

 

That's nothing. I'm starting to question if you're not my sister. She's a big baseball fan but she struggles with stats and logic. I'm just happy she's a fan. Ignoring the back and forth, I feel the same way about you.

 

I am starting to question if you're the cranky old guy sitting on his front porch yelling at kids to get off his lawn. Of course this proves my point that you like to jump to conclusions.

 

I have no freaking clue if Pronk was a roid junkie. But pointing at his "down year" - when he had ~50 fewer total bases than the prior season - even with far more plate appearances, isn't exactly a point in the favor of those who suggest he was clean.[/b]

 

One down year. It as easily can just be an off year for a guy going through contract negotations, still coming off the broken hand the year before, pitchers making more adjustments against him, spending more time in the 3 hole instead of the 4 hole in the line up (remember, Travis was hitting clean up in 2006 the majority of time, while batting 3rd 2007. But I'll guess you don't think where a guy hits in the order ever impacts his production, pitches seen, or the players comfort level at the plate), teams starting to do the shifting of the infield around on him, etc.

 

Do you think Miguel Cabrera, Jim Thome, David Ortiz, and may others were all on, off, and back on steriods? I can point to an off year for everyone of those guys and 100's more of MLB players. If you are such the expert you are now trying to portray yourself as and belittle me, you'd think you'd be aware of how oftern player in MLB, the NFL, NBA, or any other sport have an off year that doesn't match up with all their other production. As well as how easly other distractions can impact them.

 

And jumping to the weight loss and injury as a point to steroids is what makes it quite laughable. If you go off the juice, you don't lose only 10lbs. That is all Travis has reportedly lost. Wow, that's quite a reduction. Maybe my girlfriend was on steroids too. Here I thought she was just eating better, but I guess she was juicing and that's why she lost 10lbs over the winter.

 

The injury, as pointed out by the doctor is a normal injury for a hitter. It's also Travis first and only injury of that type. Every player that ever needed Tommy John surgery or any other arm, shoulder, or elbow injury must have been juicing.

 

You know what I find sad? That the person calling someone who is giving a player the benifit of the doubt ignorant. But I guess making people guilty until proven innocent is your idea of non-ignorance.

 

You'll have to forgive me for waiting and seeing if Travis now stays healthy and returns to form before I presume he was juicing.

[Beanpot]

It was a typo. I meant OBP. As for OPS, it is baseball's version of a QB rating. You can put stock in it if you want. I don't. But according to you, if I don't put stock in every stat you do, I must not know anything. *yawn*

 

First off, I don't put any stock in typos. Hell, I misspelled my own screen-name in an earlier reply. I just had no idea what you meant by OBS. I disagree with you about the value of OPS (and think it's not remotely similar to QB rating) but I do apologize for suggesting that you don't know anything. I've been trying to build this board for nearly a decade in various formats (btw, I'm in my 30's and you're still not allowed on my lawn) and a dissenting voice is welcome.

 

I will take exception with this comment of yours:

 

yet the first assumption and accusation you make on a player is steriod use.

 

That's simply not true and I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. It certainly didn't happen in this thread and I'd like for you to back that up, if at all possible.

 

BTW, the greatest evidence that Hafner didn't use roids is his 2006 season, when testing was first implemented. We disagree about the strength of it compared to his 2007 season, but it's evidence enough for me (with my fanboy hat placed firmly atop my head) that Pronk was clean.

 

Beanpot

[Guest Masters]

First off, I don't put any stock in typos. Hell, I misspelled my own screen-name in an earlier reply. I just had no idea what you meant by OBS. I disagree with you about the value of OPS (and think it's not remotely similar to QB rating) but I do apologize for suggesting that you don't know anything. I've been trying to build this board for nearly a decade in various formats (btw, I'm in my 30's and you're still not allowed on my lawn) and a dissenting voice is welcome.

 

I will take exception with this comment of yours:

 

 

 

That's simply not true and I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. It certainly didn't happen in this thread and I'd like for you to back that up, if at all possible.

 

BTW, the greatest evidence that Hafner didn't use roids is his 2006 season, when testing was first implemented. We disagree about the strength of it compared to his 2007 season, but it's evidence enough for me (with my fanboy hat placed firmly atop my head) that Pronk was clean.

 

Beanpot

 

I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:

 

"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????

 

Jason Giambi??? "

 

What other conclusion could one draw from that?

 

Hafner very well could have been using the juice, but to me, at this time, there is far to little evidence to even make the assumption or accusation, imo. I guess I am just in the boat of I wouldn't say one way or the other on it. I don't find it fair either way.

 

And appology accepted. I appologize for my jabs as well. It's a message board, so I don't take them to heart. As I am sure you don't either.

[ballpeen]

I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:

 

"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????

 

Jason Giambi??? "

 

What other conclusion could one draw from that?

 

 

I said that.

[Beanpot]

I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:

 

"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????

 

Jason Giambi??? "

 

What other conclusion could one draw from that?

 

You could have come to the conclusion that you confused me with another poster, as Peen explains above. In fact, that may be the source of much of this debate, at least on my end.

 

And appology accepted. I appologize for my jabs as well. It's a message board, so I don't take them to heart. As I am sure you don't either.

 

No need to apologize for jabs, I enjoy the back and forth.

 

Beanpot

[Guest Masters]

Crap! I did confuse you with Ballpeen, Beenpot. My bad.

[Beanpot]

Crap! I did confuse you with Ballpeen, Beenpot. My bad.

 

Ah, don't worry about it.

 

Beanpot

[ballpeen]

Beanpot, Beenpot, Peenpot.....something like that.

 

This has been a fun thread to read!!