Merged Threads Gay Talk

[heckofajobbrownie]

So today North Carolina is expected to pass a ban not only same sex marriage, but also civil unions.

 

Here's the text that voters will see on the ballot: "Constitutional amendment to provide that marriage between one man and one woman is the only domestic legal union that shall be valid or recognized in this State."

 

How would you vote on this and why?

[Westside Steve]

So today North Carolina is expected to pass a ban not only same sex marriage, but also civil unions.

 

Here's the text that voters will see on the ballot: "Constitutional amendment to provide that marriage between one man and one woman is the only domestic legal union that shall be valid or recognized in this State."

 

How would you vote on this and why?

I'll be glad to answer on december first 2012.

North carolina is a swing state you know...

WSS

[Chicopee John]

I probably wouldn't vote one way or the other. I am sick of this stuff.

 

There are - or, at least, used to be - legal and other implications germane to one's marital status.

 

Personally, I tend to agree with the ballot statement. Pretty bland stuff. I agree that it should be the case. Would I go to the mat over it? NO.

I am somebody who believes in the separation of opinions and laws. That is - because it is somebody's opinion that it is wrong for somebody to smote a cigarette in a public setting, I disagree there should be a law against it.

[Mr. T]

If you allready did your research on it, you would allready know that both Democrats and Republicans passed this a law and are taking measures to stop some radical judge from overturning a law that is popular within both parties in NC.

 

Yes I voted today!

[DaveS]

I might have voted for this years ago but I would have voted no and I'll tell you why. Because they're just like everyone else and all you have to do is know one to understand this. My sister is a lesbian who has been with her partner for 22 years. They have two kids. They are more of a family than the one we were raised in and I'm getting tired of all these people saying they aren't and trying to bully them out of the state and say they're not welcome. They all can come through me first. It's bullshit and I'm tired of it. We're passed this now. Got to get passed it.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Come on. Steve. I bet you agree with Dave here. Do tell. You're not running for anything.

 

I don't think you believes gays should be barred from receiving any legal protections at all, whether it be civil unions or marriage.

[heckofajobbrownie]

A letter on Andrew Sullivan's site today:

 

"I am a professor at the University of North Carolina. I am a Westerner by birth and temperament, but after nearly two decades in this gentle, Southern state, I was until recently proud to call it home.

 

Today, it looks likely to be the case that my beloved home will pass an amendment to its Constitution that will make me a permanent second-class citizen. Last night, I talked with my husband of 12 years what we should do. Should I look for a job elsewhere? I love UNC. I love its students. But it is clear that a majority of its voters will carve in large, bloody letters hatred into the Constitution.

 

Should I uproot myself? I plan on writing the Chancellor of the University on Wednesday to let him know that I will start the years-long process of finding a new job. I am heartbroken. American Theocracy is a real thing - and the machinery of a pluralist, democratic state has been hijacked.

 

Truly, my heart breaks."

[MLD Woody]

I don't see any reason to vote yes on this. How does gays getting married hurt you in any way? If you really think it's an evil, immoral sin to be gay then they won't get into your heaven and you won't have to deal with them...

[Chicopee John]

First of all, I have no idea who Mr. Sullivan is. Maybe I should but I don't.

 

He should be happy to be living in the United States according to the vision of the Founding Fathers.

 

It's called State's Rights and people have the ability to move from State to State if they don't find one State aligned with any number of factors one might find important.

 

Of course, there may be factors that make it difficult to move but, if the motivation is strong and real enough, anybody has the freedom to pick up and move.

[MLD Woody]

Why should gay marriage be illegal? I just want to know the reasoning behind it

[heckofajobbrownie]

First of all, I have no idea who Mr. Sullivan is. Maybe I should but I don't.

 

He should be happy to be living in the United States according to the vision of the Founding Fathers.

 

It's called State's Rights and people have the ability to move from State to State if they don't find one State aligned with any number of factors one might find important.

 

Of course, there may be factors that make it difficult to move but, if the motivation is strong and real enough, anybody has the freedom to pick up and move.

 

Yes, John, he should be thrilled today. Just thrilled that the Founding Fathers' vision of equality under the law and the pursuit of happiness doesn't apply to gay people, and that the union of he and his partner will now have no legal protections whatsoever.

 

Like it, gay dude!

[Westside Steve]

Come on. Steve. I bet you agree with Dave here. Do tell. You're not running for anything.

 

I don't think you believes gays should be barred from receiving any legal protections at all, whether it be civil unions or marriage.

Damn.

I thought you would be proud of me for taking the obama position.

Well as anyone here should know by now I have no beef with gay marriage.

On the other hand I wouldn't hang myself if the best they could get was a civil union.

 

( But I bet the founding fathers word shit their pants at either notiin)

WSS.

[Westside Steve]

Why should gay marriage be illegal? I just want to know the reasoning behind it

Where is it illegal?

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

It's illegal in lots of states. It's also illegal according the federal government.

[Westside Steve]

It's illegal in lots of states. According the federal government it's also illegal.

I don't think it's illegal.

If I'm not mistaken it's just not affordrd the same benefits as recognized marriage.

 

Marriage is by definition a man and a woman with legal religious and historical roots.

 

I understand that many people want that definition and law changed.

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I don't know what your point is. You're saying it's not illegal, and then explaining how it's not legally marriage.

 

Many states (26, I think) have laws that specifically prohibit marriage as anything other than between one man and one woman. In other words, in those states gay marriage is illegal.

 

And the Defense of Marriage Act is a federal law that defines marriage as between one man and one woman, making it officially illegal for the federal government.

 

Why else do you think they want the law changed? Because it's not illegal or because it is?

 

As for marriage, it hasn't always been about one man and one woman. Its definition has changed quite often. As I'm sure you know.

[Westside Steve]

No one is going to come drag you out of your house and lock you up after being married in any state.

Fret not.

I have no doubt you could find some progressive minister to perform the ceremony.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Wha? You're entirely missing the point.

 

Gay couples don't want some "progressive minister" to perform a sham ceremony so they can say they're married. That's not what this is about. They wanted to be actually married. It's about having a real legal ceremony, the same one straight couples get, with all the accompanying rights. It's about having access to the same institution as everyone else. It's about having society recognize them as equals, not second-class citizens because they happen to be gay.

[Westside Steve]

Wha? You're entirely missing the point.

 

Gay couples don't want some "progressive minister" to perform a sham ceremony so they can say they're married. That's not what this is about. They wanted to be actually married. It's about having a real legal ceremony, the same one straight couples get, with all the accompanying rights. It's about having access to the same institution as everyone else. It's about having society recognize them as equals, not second-class citizens because they happen to be gay.

Sham ceremony?

Well I understand that the religious portion of that union is meaningless to you and some others here.

So that actually leaves you with a civil union.

And apparently you are unable to accept that as an option.

Or are you?

WSS

[Westside Steve]

Sham ceremony?

Well I understand that the religious portion of that union is meaningless to you and some others here.

So that actually leaves you with a civil union.

And apparently you are unable to accept that as an option.

Or are you?

WSS

 

Plus if the couple questions doesn't believe in the religious portion of the ceremony even whrre legal it's still a sham, correct?

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Sham ceremony?

Well I understand that the religious portion of that union is meaningless to you and some others here.

So that actually leaves you with a civil union.

And apparently you are unable to accept that as an option.

Or are you?

WSS

 

Why do you keep bringing up religious rites of marriage? They're not relevant. This isn't about my opinions of the religious rites of marriage, or about what churches do. I don't care what churches do. They get to do whatever they want. This is about what the government recognizes. Gay marriage advocates aren't out there asking the Catholic and Mormon churches to perform their marriages. They're asking the states to recognize their marriages like they do straight marriages. That's it.

 

And you're missing the point again here - the North Carolina law doesn't leave you with a civil union. It leaves you with nothing. Civil unions between gay couples are also banned by this law.

 

Civil unions are an improvement over having no state recognition, but are not equal marriage rights. The states where it's legal simply allow gay couples to join the existing institution.

[FairHooker11]

As far as I know, every state has its rights to define marriage, hence the latest state NC asking its citizens if they agree marriage should be between 1 man and 1 woman. So far the majority of states agree with traditional marriage. Even the great state of California (the land of fruits,nuts and flakes) says that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman, except they are having to deal with the activist judges who dont agree with the people! Massachussetts I believe set the precedent of legal marriage for gays - and when it came to Iowa passing such laws the legal means for DOMA was enacted. DOMA was created BY THE CLINTON Adm.... to fend off the so called legal claims made by gays getting married in Massachussetts and then moving to say ,, North Carolina! and expecting the SAME legal recognition. Well it cant work that way.

 

Anyway, I could care less what gays and lesbians do in their own private lives, It is not a conservative matter RATHER, it is a LEFT WING radical activism put forth by the courts to overthrow DOMA. And the states now have to weigh in AGAIN to finally answer to the wacked out liberal judges BY VOTING in order to re-establish the will of the people.

Gays and lesbians still do not comprise even minority status - so to see this big effort by the federal govt, kicked off by the likes of Joe Biden and his "I like gay marriage" speech this last weekend, is further proof that the dems are either way out of touch with middle / moderate voters or they are just plain stupid! JMHO though....

[FairHooker11]

A letter on Andrew Sullivan's site today:

 

"I am a professor at the University of North Carolina. I am a Westerner by birth and temperament, but after nearly two decades in this gentle, Southern state, I was until recently proud to call it home.

 

Today, it looks likely to be the case that my beloved home will pass an amendment to its Constitution that will make me a permanent second-class citizen. Last night, I talked with my husband of 12 years what we should do. Should I look for a job elsewhere? I love UNC. I love its students. But it is clear that a majority of its voters will carve in large, bloody letters hatred into the Constitution.

 

Should I uproot myself? I plan on writing the Chancellor of the University on Wednesday to let him know that I will start the years-long process of finding a new job. I am heartbroken. American Theocracy is a real thing - and the machinery of a pluralist, democratic state has been hijacked.

 

Truly, my heart breaks."

 

 

HERES MY BIG FAT OHH WAAAAAA!!!!! go move then if you dont like it!

[FairHooker11]

one last post on this miserable subject...... it should be noted that the secretary of education Arne Duncan was with good ole Joe in North Carolina spouting off on his gay marriage support.

 

 

 

http://www.boston.co...76sI/index.html

 

 

Is it any wonder we are getting further down the sink hole? Now our kids are getting indoctrinated at an earlier age too.....

 

 

 

The dems have their national convention in Charlotte this summer......

 

 

 

My guess is that the good people of North Carolina will SOUNDLY shoot down the notion today / tonight and say YES to traditional marriage. (oh, it wont bode well for President Barack Obama's campaign-oops sorry)

[MLD Woody]

I'm pretty sure at least have of Americans are in favor of legalizing gay marriage.

 

No one answered my question. Why should gay people not be able to marry each other? And just so this doesn't go off on a tangent about definitions I mean a legitimate government recognized marriage where they get all the rights of straight marriages.

 

And Steve, marriages that don't involve religion are not a sham? lol. You think every marriage between people that don't believe a man took every kind of animal on a boat he built are shams? (insert a shot at another religion here if you wish) What does that have anything to do with how legit it is?

 

 

But please, someone tell me why they think gays shouldn't get a legal marriage like everyone else?

[Westside Steve]

The reason woody, I bring up the religious rites, ( or sham as Heck calls it) is that it has been a part of marriage.

Those with religious faith can be married in a church and be married in the eyes of whatever they consider God to be.

 

But if its true that all you folks want is a guarantee of equal rights responsibilities and benefits of actual marriage that can be taken care of by a civil union.

 

So what would be your problem with that compromise?

WSS

[VaporTrail]

The reason woody, I bring up the religious rites, ( or sham as Heck calls it) is that it has been a part of marriage.

Those with religious faith can be married in a church and be married in the eyes of whatever they consider God to be.

 

But if its true that all you folks want is a guarantee of equal rights responsibilities and benefits of actual marriage that can be taken care of by a civil union.

 

So what would be your problem with that compromise?

WSS

 

Steve, a civil union =/= a marriage.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union#United_States

 

I'd be okay with a compromise that allowed gay couples all the legal benefits that straight couples have access to. If the state allows civil unions, but not marriage, they're treating gays as second-class citizens.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Because it's not marriage rights. It's creating something different for gays apart from straights. And people don't like "compromising" on fundamental rights. They want equality.

 

I'd ask you: if you're willing to grant gays all the rights of marriage, why do you feel the need to call it "civil unions"? Why call it something else?

[MLD Woody]

The reason woody, I bring up the religious rites, ( or sham as Heck calls it) is that it has been a part of marriage.

Those with religious faith can be married in a church and be married in the eyes of whatever they consider God to be.

 

But if its true that all you folks want is a guarantee of equal rights responsibilities and benefits of actual marriage that can be taken care of by a civil union.

 

So what would be your problem with that compromise?

WSS

 

My problem with compromise is that there should be no reason to compromise...

 

You still haven't given me a reason for why you think gay marriage should be illegal. And do you think that two straight atheists can't get married? What about two people of different religions? That's great of two people want to throw religion in there but I don't see how that makes it any more or less legitimate.

[VaporTrail]