Protestors on both sides of restricting collective bargaining bill

[Westside Steve]

I think that they should have the option to be able to make more than just what inflation dictates.

 

Think about it. It's not unlike how I feel about how I feel about medical doctors. But with teachers, these people are barely making enough as is. Now you want to restrict the money that they make!?! Jesus christ, I could think of better ways to save money. Take money out of the Ohio National Guard. Hell, take it away from the doctors getting paid by federal buck. I'm sorry, but teachers just don't make enough money as it is, and now they're trying to take it away.

Well I don't see it that way.

50 K plus perks is a lot of dough for a relatively easy job.

 

Factor that in with retirement at around 55 on the public tab and the free time......

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Oh and we all get tired of your bullshit but lets try again.

 

Here's your leverage, no matter what service or product you provide.

Is our service valueable to those who hire us?

If we believe it is then if we think it wopuld be more cost effective for that employer to give us more then we are free to ask.

If that service is worth enough to the employer (that is he'd have more problems replacing that group than it was worth) he can give you more.

 

Now if your service is easily replaced at equal quality for lower cost then I suppose you have nothing to bargain with.

Where in real life is that not the case Heck?

 

If the service a brick and mortar store provides is worth paying a dollar more for a widget I'll buy my widget there.

If that isn't the case I'll buy my widget online and pay less.

 

So that's my answer.

If you're product or service isn't worth more than someone elses you don't have much to bargain with.

No more than if the guy across the street offered your employee more than you did.

Should he be barred by law from accepting?

 

Man up and tell me how one is fair and not the other.

But you're just mad because it seems Dems are being targeted.

 

WSS

 

This is all missing the point because it's based on the fallacy that people and widgets are the same thing and should be treated the same, and this is all just a basic explanation of how wages are set in a market, but whatever. This is how we discuss things.

 

But here's what you're saying: you're against unions. Well, fine. Don't mask it. Don't say you're for the things unions do in one post, and then another, and say you think workers should be able to organize and petition employers for better benefits and wages (this is what unions do) and then write something like this, which says ...something about how wages are set in a fictional, libertarian, unregulated job market.

 

So just say it.

 

PS - Love the "man up" stuff. So Cal. Answering you, starting my own thread - this is the stuff of men.

[calfoxwc]

We are against the tyranny of unions.

 

They've demanded more than any state can continue to pay.

 

States didn't have to go with it? Maybe.

 

But the alternative would be strikes, and more nasty political attacks,

 

than just demonstrating OUTSIDE of the politicians' home.

 

Heck loves union thugs, and Vapor thinks all teachers are barely able to make ends meet.

 

LOL. "sigh"

 

The left lives in whining, cherry-picking fantasy land.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I think that Unions were originally created to do good things. There are still good Unions, and there are greedy Unions. I don't think what Reagan did in the 1980's with Air Traffic Controllers was wrong. They were forbidden to strike, but they chose to anyway. I don't think any critical job should be allowed to strike, police, fire, air traffic control, etc. But some unions are still necessary in my opinion. I don't think teachers make enough money for the shit they put up with.

[Westside Steve]

t PS - Love the "man up" stuff. So Cal. Answering you, starting my own thread - this is the stuff of men.

 

Dumbass you just bitched me out fopr not answering because you read the posts out of order.

 

Anyway screw the widgets.

I play at Hecks bar.

Every thursday.

Heck makes about 100 dollars profit.

I want a 75 dollar raise and threaten to walk without it.

 

Now I can plead my case and bargain with Heck, sure.

But:

Some college kid tells Heck he'll come in for half what I make now.

He isn't as good but Hecks profit stays the same.

 

Or:

 

Some guy who's as good as me who will bring in as many customers as I did will work for the same money as I get now.

Or lets say ten bucks less.

 

Should Heck be banned by law from hiring one of these guys?

Why or why not?

(I predict no reasonable answer, merely a snide remark)

 

BTW yes or no; shoulkd Obama take the army into right to work states and take over the means of production?

Why not?

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Well I don't see it that way.

50 K plus perks is a lot of dough for a relatively easy job.

 

Factor that in with retirement at around 55 on the public tab and the free time......

WSS

 

Middle school teachers make 55k? Maybe the lucky ones. If they're good enough to negotiate for that much, then they probably deserve it.

 

Some college kid tells Heck he'll come in for half what I make now.

He isn't as good but Hecks profit stays the same.

 

This is the point I'm getting at. Can we really afford to have people that aren't as good to be teaching the nation's youth? I'm sorry, but many parents don't exactly give me faith in humanity, I'd like to think that we're doing the best we can to make our children more competitive in the global market. You can't change parents, but you can change teachers. As it is now, their pay is already bad enough that there isn't really any incentive to become a teacher unless you really love doing it. You could have all other sorts of jobs with similar benefits where you don't have to deal with the hassle known as adolescence. If you're going to make it so that they can't negotiate their wages, then the wages you suggest need to be enough of an incentive to attract the type of people you want educating your kids.

 

BTW yes or no; shoulkd Obama take the army into right to work states and take over the means of production?

Why not?

 

Sure. They might accomplish more than they have in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Steve, you're going way off the reservation here. You're not even talking about the point anymore.

 

Listen to what you're saying and see if you can see how you contradicts yourself:

 

"Is our service valueable to those who hire us?

If we believe it is then if we think it wopuld be more cost effective for that employer to give us more then we are free to ask.

If that service is worth enough to the employer (that is he'd have more problems replacing that group than it was worth) he can give you more."

 

That's what you believe, correct? That if we believe we're creating more value than we're compensated for we're free to ask for more compensation? Good. So do I.

 

Now, in Wisconsin, what is the Governor proposing? Essentially, it's that state workers can't do this anymore. You can't bargain for more compensation in the form of health benefits. You can't bargain for more compensation in the form of pay sick days, or paid vacation. You can't even ask for more wages above the rate of inflation - what's commonly known as "a raise." He's saying public employees - except the ones that supported him last time, which are somehow exempt from this - can longer do the thing that you say you think workers should be allowed to.

 

And you're for this?

 

Again, don't give me a a lecture about how wages are set. I think I'm aware of how wages are set in the theoretical market in the textbook.

 

Are you for what the Governor of Wisconsin is trying to do? And does it bother you that he's doing it specifically to political opponents and not to political supporters, even though what he claims is so odious about the public employee unions he is targeting is just as or even more true for the ones he's not targeting?

 

Can you answer that for me?

[Westside Steve]

Middle school teachers make 55k? Maybe the lucky ones. If they're good enough to negotiate for that much, then they probably deserve it.

 

Retire at 55 VT. Years old. Pensioned by the taxpayer.

You read the averages in Wisconsin.

right around 50K average elementary middle and high.

 

 

This is the point I'm getting at. Can we really afford to have people that aren't as good to be teaching the nation's youth?

 

Yes. Paying them 100 K won't make them better or worse.

 

I'm sorry, but many parents don't exactly give me faith in humanity, I'd like to think that we're doing the best we can to make our children more competitive in the global market. You can't change parents, but you can change teachers.

 

 

I don't blame the teachers.

Never did.

 

As it is now, their pay is already bad enough that there isn't really any incentive to become a teacher unless you really love doing it.

 

Uh yes. If you aren't cut out for it no money can make you be.

 

 

You could have all other sorts of jobs with similar benefits where you don't have to deal with the hassle known as adolescence.

 

Where?

 

If you're going to make it so that they can't negotiate their wages, then the wages you suggest need to be enough of an incentive to attract the type of people you want educating your kids.

 

Those people aren't the ones in high paying corporate jobs.

 

 

 

Sure. They might accomplish more than they have in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

 

That's you and Hecks problem now.

Your boy says we're gonna kick Al Quedas ass soon.

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

I'm sorry, but teachers just don't make enough money as it is, and now they're trying to take it away. Vapor

**********************************

Really? Where did you get that bunch of baloney? An IM from Heck? Or Solon, or MoveonupObamao'scrotch?

 

How about having a late snack, like a Truth Sandwich?

**********************************************

http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/averag...-tops-100kyear/

 

Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year

[Milwaukee, Wisconsin] MacIver News Service – For the first time in history, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public School system will exceed $100,000.

 

That staggering figure was revealed last night at a meeting of the MPS School Board.

 

The average salary for an MPS teacher is $56,500. When fringe benefits are factored in, the annual compensation will be $100,005 in 2011.

 

MacIver’s Bill Osmulski has more in this video report.

 

 

 

 

[Westside Steve]

Steve, you're going way off the reservation here. You're not even talking about the point anymore.

 

Listen to what you're saying and see if you can see how you contradicts yourself:

 

"Is our service valueable to those who hire us?

If we believe it is then if we think it wopuld be more cost effective for that employer to give us more then we are free to ask.

If that service is worth enough to the employer (that is he'd have more problems replacing that group than it was worth) he can give you more."

 

That's what you believe, correct? That if we believe we're creating more value than we're compensated for we're free to ask for more compensation? Good. So do I.

 

Now, in Wisconsin, what is the Governor proposing? Essentially, it's that state workers can't do this anymore. You can't bargain for more compensation in the form of health benefits. You can't bargain for more compensation in the form of pay sick days, or paid vacation. You can't even ask for more wages above the rate of inflation - what's commonly known as "a raise." He's saying public employees - except the ones that supported him last time, which are somehow exempt from this - can longer do the thing that you say you think workers should be allowed to.

 

And you're for this?

 

Again, don't give me a a lecture about how wages are set. I think I'm aware of how wages are set in the theoretical market in the textbook.

 

Are you for what the Governor of Wisconsin is trying to do? And does it bother you that he's doing it specifically to political opponents and not to political supporters, even though what he claims is so odious about the public employee unions he is targeting is just as or even more true for the ones he's not targeting?

 

Can you answer that for me?

 

I think I have but for some reason you want to badger me.

OK maybe this will help.

 

If the governor has done what you say I'm opposed to it.

I think teachers should be allowed to bargain.

 

I also think any employee should honor whatever contract they're working under.

I think the time to renegotiate would be at the end of the present contract.

 

I think that if employees decide they want more they should be allowed to struke and that the employer should be allowed to rehire should that become necessary.

 

In light of strikes I do believe that public safety workers are in a different class than teachers because a strike there would cost many lives and property damage.

But that's another discussion.

 

I don't know what in this confuses you.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

Steve, you're going way off the reservation here. You're not even talking about the point anymore.

 

Listen to what you're saying and see if you can see how you contradicts yourself:

 

"Is our service valueable to those who hire us?

If we believe it is then if we think it wopuld be more cost effective for that employer to give us more then we are free to ask.

If that service is worth enough to the employer (that is he'd have more problems replacing that group than it was worth) he can give you more."

 

That's what you believe, correct? That if we believe we're creating more value than we're compensated for we're free to ask for more compensation? Good. So do I.

 

Now, in Wisconsin, what is the Governor proposing? Essentially, it's that state workers can't do this anymore. You can't bargain for more compensation in the form of health benefits. You can't bargain for more compensation in the form of pay sick days, or paid vacation. You can't even ask for more wages above the rate of inflation - what's commonly known as "a raise." He's saying public employees - except the ones that supported him last time, which are somehow exempt from this - can longer do the thing that you say you think workers should be allowed to.

 

And you're for this?

 

Again, don't give me a a lecture about how wages are set. I think I'm aware of how wages are set in the theoretical market in the textbook.

 

Are you for what the Governor of Wisconsin is trying to do? And does it bother you that he's doing it specifically to political opponents and not to political supporters, even though what he claims is so odious about the public employee unions he is targeting is just as or even more true for the ones he's not targeting?

 

Can you answer that for me?

 

I think I have but for some reason you want to badger me.

OK maybe this will help.

 

If the governor has done what you say I'm opposed to it.

I think teachers should be allowed to bargain.

 

I also think any employee should honor whatever contract they're working under.

I think the time to renegotiate would be at the end of the present contract.

 

I think that if employees decide they want more they should be allowed to struke and that the employer should be allowed to rehire should that become necessary.

 

In light of strikes I do believe that public safety workers are in a different class than teachers because a strike there would cost many lives and property damage.

But that's another discussion.

 

I don't know what in this confuses you.

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Yes. Paying them 100 K won't make them better or worse.

 

Maybe not, but paying them less than what I'm sure many of them are making now isn't going to make for happy teachers. And now you might argue, why does the teachers' happiness make a difference? I'd argue that it makes a difference because they're actually playing a role in shaping lives. Getting educated through Catholic school systems, I've had great teachers work for shitty pay, I've also seen it stress them the hell out, and I've also had teachers who didn't give a shit, were pissed that they could only get a job at a parochial school instead of a public one, and just do a poor job of teaching. Their happiness can and will affect their ability to teach.

 

Where?

...

In light of strikes I do believe that public safety workers are in a different class than teachers because a strike there would cost many lives and property damage.

But that's another discussion.

 

I think it's quite relevant. Those other jobs that you're referring to don't really require much use of the brain. And, in my opinion, that sets the teachers a tier above laborers.

 

If the governor has done what you say I'm opposed to it.

I think teachers should be allowed to bargain.

 

I also think any employee should honor whatever contract they're working under.

I think the time to renegotiate would be at the end of the present contract.

 

That's the issue, here. They're striking because Kasich comes out of left field with a bill, which, if passed, means they will not be able to negotiate for their contracts in the future, when their current ones expire. Seems strikeworthy to me.

 

I think that if employees decide they want more they should be allowed to struke and that the employer should be allowed to rehire should that become necessary.

 

I agree with you, in principle, but I just think this is a stupid way to go. If you look at education as just a number you're trying to keep in the black, which Kasich is doing, you're going to probably end up with a dumber population. Our population's dumb enough as it is, and you've seen my rants on the relative lack of Americans getting educated in the sciences. We need to up that number any way we can.

 

Also, Cal and T, I stand corrected on the salary they make.

 

THATS A LOT OF DOUGH FOR A BUNCH OF LAZY ASS BABYSITTERS

 

You're a moron. If you look at teachers as just babysitters, then you're exactly the reason why Americans are considered to be "stupid." It starts at home, folks. I hope your kids have good teachers because I sincerely doubt that they'll get decent guidance or education from you.

[calfoxwc]

Thanks, Vapor. Being married to a teacher, they are all too often babysitters. Most really care,

and it's a very, very, very demanding job, which is being made harder and harder every year it seems.

The amount of state regulation and paperwork is taking it's toll on teachers, who all too often don't

have much time left... FOR FREAKIN TEACHING.

 

I'm not against those salaries by GOOD TEACHERS. But in so many school districts, men teachers end up

in special education, because they can bail on their responsibilites and go head for the film room, or "secret"

football meetings, or leaving early to go scout other teams practices if they can, or attend games of opponents

way across the state, or out of state. Surely, we've all known teacher failures who couldn't care less, are only in it

for the coaching career, or the $$$$ they will eventually start getting... or the summer's off.

 

Look at the head of some of the unions. They are not American politically. That's a huge clue as to the problem.

 

In Wisconsin, they are broke. No more money. The governor made a great speech about it, and answered questions,

and was really right on the money, no pun intended. They tried to talk to the teachers unions about the crisis, and

were told to forget it. The unions played hardball.. wouldn't give up a penny, wouldn't help out at all. Nothin. So, the arrogance of the unions, always in the hip pocket of the dems who dote on the votes by unions, have gone sour grapes in a huge way, with

ANY Republican governor, and they caused their own problem.

 

It's a runaway train, and the Dems refused to try to fix the problem. They simply exaggerated it, and blew it out of proportion.

You see the nasty signs? I guess those signs weren't improper, and don't send a violent, hateful message?

 

Nope, not per the dolts who only raised it, and even manufactured it falsely, for the advantage of Dems and leftists.

 

The unions' arrogance has caused their own crisis, at least in a major part of it, not all of it.

 

Back in the early days, the union was the only hope of workers to be treated fairly in their employment, and receive a fair wage.

 

Without unions, they would never get a raise, would get fired because they wanted one, or got old enough to retire.

so, the companies would simply find some stupid reason to fire the employee, and could laugh it off, because that employee

lost his chance to get his retirement pay.

 

When I was a little guy, I remember being on strike with my Dad. Donuts, family talk, clean jokes, and mutual "hi's"

with their supervisors, who had to go to work.

 

Somewhere along the way, the employees had it all - terrific wages, vacation, job security, and everybody was happy.

Except the union bosses. They wanted huge salaries. And they wanted more. So, they bought or built lodges with fishing lakes and golf courses. And, to use those facilities? You had to have seniority.

 

And the bosses had to justify their continued existence, or, who needed them?

 

And more and more, the older employees retired, and younger employees came in.

 

The younger employees didn't have that work ethic anymore. They didn't appreciate what they were getting in benefits...

they simply felt they were entitled. And they thought it was fun to strike for a nickle more an hour, because they could have

an extra vacation that didn't count against their real vacation. ha ha. And the unions started getting more power hungry.

Became a political force. Spent a lot of money to get that power. And kept getting more and more compensation for

their employees, and kept their positions because of that.

The steel workers and the rubber workers kept playing hardball. And more and more, the companies couldn't make a profit,

and couldn't compete against non union companies, especially those overseas. And the employees could come to work drunk,

and start fights, etc... and ended up not being able to fire the employee, but agreeing to send the employee to counseling,

and rehabilitation centers. More than once, before eventually, they might be able to fire that employee.

 

So the companies built plants overseas to stay afloat. Steel companies closed, and nobody would buy the superior American steel, because foreign steel was really cheap. And the unions went berserk, and went for broke with the one special interest political party that was bought and paid for by ... unions.

 

The rubber plants moved their production plants overseas like crazy. Salaried and R&D stayed here.

 

The unions had accrued way too much power. The balance was gone. So were the jobs.

 

Now, the teachers unions, etc, have gone the same route in many states. They are pricing their union members right out

of their jobs because the school districts can't afford them anymore. And, with more and more pay, the wrong kind of

people went into education, for the wrong reasons. So, if Johnny can't read, don't be quick to blame the low

100,000 dollar salaries some teachers are making on average, in some states, like Wisconsin.

 

Quality teachers are those who care so much, they teach and thrive, regardless of great pay or not.

Crap teachers don't teach for low pay. They come out of the woodwork and join the great pay team,

like steeler fans become steeler fans because of the superbowls. GGG

 

My wonderful cute Wife started out teaching in a Catholic school. She wasn't Catholic, but they didn't care -

she was an outstanding teacher. But the pay was so low, being single, she couldn't afford her car payments AND

a decent apt... so she went into the public school system. And retires this year.

 

Great teachers who CARE, and TEACH, deserve great pay. But with strong education unions, those crap teachers

continue to join up, and can't be sent packing.

 

The balance has to be put back into our companies, and our schools. The heavyweight unions have dominated for too long.

 

Finally, it has come to an all time crisis - the balance must be put back into place. Of course, the union bosses don't want to

lose that power. But they are way TOO powerful and arrogant and wealthy to want to help right the ship. So, the states are trying to balance it back.

 

That's what is going on.

[VaporTrail]

You could say that this is only about union rights, but by doing so you're also ignoring the effects it has on workers. This bill is a huge slap in the face to the middle class.

[Mr. T]

You could say that this is only about union rights, but by doing so you're also ignoring the effects it has on workers. This bill is a huge slap in the face to the middle class.

 

I would say it is a slap in the face to everyone who works in the private sector who have taken pay cuts and many have lost jobs since Obama has taken over. Sounds like the old socialist system from Russia where the only people who are allowed to have are those within the Communist party while everybody else gets to struggle.

 

Remember your messiah Obama saying everyone will need to tighten the belts while he and all of his manufactured government jobs and biG Union Labor tightens their grasps on every dollar through taxe$ and fine$ on the working class and entrepreneur.

[Mr. T]

And who is in the cross hairs?

 

Who welcomes the party of hate?

 

This is just one example of how the main stream leftmedia does nothing more than a public relations campaign for this type of behavior by not showing everyone what is really going on behind the scenes as Obama unleashes his hounds.

 

[calfoxwc]

It isn't about the middle class. A huge percentage of the middle class are salary.

The union activists are holding up signs that say "RAISE TAXES".

Taxes are too freakin high now. And the education of kids? Lamenting the lack

of skills in math and science?

 

But, being well taught in gay this and gay that, and sex practices, and foreign languages,

and political activism @@, and human relations, race relations, culture relations, and humanism, and....,

evolution and green this and green that, and mmgw this, and mmgw that, and Al Gorish's stupid fraudulent movie,

And, they need more money because science and math skills are way too low?

 

I call baloney. The left is causing their own agony, and everybody elses' misery.

 

The middle class elected Republicans to stop the ObaMao stupid gigantic health care debacle take over.

And to stop the runaway, all time devastating deficit spending - at least triple of Bush's deficit.

 

The middle class is being split apart, Vapor. The Dems have been doing it for years/decades, for union votes, and votes

from the black community, and the gay community...

 

It has to stop, once and for all. It's out of hand, way overboard, and costs have skyrocketed past the point

of continuing to have any remote chance of paying the bills.

[Westside Steve]

You mean the middle class as in people in the private sector struggling to pay for their homes while teachers salaries and benefits go through the roof thanks to bigger and bigger property tax bills?

That middle class?

WSS

[Mr. T]

Looks like the union protesters are going wild today in Wisconsin since the Gov decided to get his budget passed without the cowards who left the state.

 

What a bunch of babies they look like. Can you imagine if all of those (500,000) protesters who went to DC the week before they passed Obammy care stayed around and stormed the US Capitol building when Reid and Pelosi got the votes to pass the HC bill, what would've happened to them?

[calfoxwc]

Well, ObaMao wanted his "civilian security force"... and it seems he now has it, via the

 

unions' thugs. ObaMao is nearly openly insisting on the start of a major, violent class struggle.

 

International socialist workers unions vs ... all of us.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Hahaha.

[Mr. T]

Hahaha.

 

Someday when the chickens come home to roost, they will be plucked and deep fried.

 

It sounds like that is what is happening in Wisconsin today.

 

We should tip our hat to Governor Scott Walker and dine on drumsticks and left wings tonight.

[Chicopee John]

>>You could say that this is only about union rights, but by doing so you're also ignoring the effects it has on workers. This bill is a huge slap in the face to the middle class.>>

 

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid, Vape.

 

This has NOTHING to do with 'Middle Class' despite the attempts by labor to position this as class welfare.

 

In CT, for example, the labor union folks make about 15% more than those in the private sector - often making 6-figure salaries bolstered by obscene retirements and dozens of holidays per year.

 

The Middle Class guy has been let go 3 times in the past 12 years and has taken 3 significant pay cuts in the past 12 years. The Middle Class guy is worried about evil Management closing the company or moving to another location.

 

In this instance, the evil Management is actually Middle Class taxpayers. The state cannot file for bankrupcy (sp) and the state can't move.

 

They had a good run. The gravy train is coming to an abrupt stop.

 

That is good news for the real middle class.

[Chicopee John]

Someday when the chickens come home to roost, they will be plucked and deep fried.

 

It sounds like that is what is happening in Wisconsin today.

 

We should tip our hat to Governor Scott Walker and dine on drumsticks and left wings tonight.

 

For the record, T, chickens don't roost. Roosters roost.

[Mr. T]

For the record, T, chickens don't roost. Roosters roost.

 

 

Well John, This is an age old saying meaning that hate speach and actions are more than likely at some point to rebound back on you.

 

So when making a statement like that; I am presuming that everything these community/union organizers are doing in Wisconsin,New jersey, Ohio and etc. will leave a much greater scare on the leaders they represent who happen to condone their behavior (Obama) and folks will not look to favorably on their causes while they look so silly.

 

Im suprised only Fox news showed how all these protesters looked like a mob and were trying to lynch everyone who voted for the Wisconsin buidget. It looked like a jailbreak or as bad as a NY city looting during a blackout.

 

[VaporTrail]

>>You could say that this is only about union rights, but by doing so you're also ignoring the effects it has on workers. This bill is a huge slap in the face to the middle class.>>

 

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid, Vape.

 

This has NOTHING to do with 'Middle Class' despite the attempts by labor to position this as class welfare.

 

In CT, for example, the labor union folks make about 15% more than those in the private sector - often making 6-figure salaries bolstered by obscene retirements and dozens of holidays per year.

 

The Middle Class guy has been let go 3 times in the past 12 years and has taken 3 significant pay cuts in the past 12 years. The Middle Class guy is worried about evil Management closing the company or moving to another location.

 

In this instance, the evil Management is actually Middle Class taxpayers. The state cannot file for bankrupcy (sp) and the state can't move.

 

They had a good run. The gravy train is coming to an abrupt stop.

 

That is good news for the real middle class.

 

Perhaps you're right, my argument is flawed. I think, for me, it just comes down to me thinking that teachers deserve extra perks over, say, a middle class banker.

[Westside Steve]

Well actually you should be happy that without the union seniority stranglehold good teachers could be rewarded for performance instead of years embedded at the job....

Just a thought.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

[Mr. T]

And we haven't had a good president since Reagan held office.

[heckofajobbrownie]

I always find it interesting to listen to middle and lower middle class people bemoan the fact that other middle class people have decent benefits and retirement packages, and suggest that they should be more like their private sector counterparts, many of whom don't have decent benefits and retirement packages. Because, as we know, the goal we have for the American middle class is a shittier existence with less income security and economic mobility.

 

Also that unions should give up those decent benefits and retirement packages to be more like the people who don't have union representation, even though the whole point of the union is to give workers bargaining power so that they can negotiate for better wages and benefits and retirement packages. What we really want is for workers to have less bargaining power and, again, lower compensation and income security.

 

Now, I find certain union policies to be odious. I find the vilification of the idea of unions, and the purpose of unions, to be even more odious. And I find the vilification of unions by the middle class people who would benefit economically and physically from unions to be downright puzzling.

 

But there's no easier way to get your way with workers than to get them to fight each other, and to make your case for you. So, in a perverse way, it's fun to watch you guys make their case for them, and then claim that it's really your case.