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Buck The Frowns

Bye Bye Mangini

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you are just repeating what the commentators said and using that as proof that Mangini made a poor decision. If we use a Timeout there, we punt the ball to Cincinnati with time left for them to come down and score.. Our defense couldn't stop anything today. No sense in making the halftime deficit worse.

 

Bottom line is the injuries and lack of playmakers are catching up to us.. Can't wait to add more playmakers in the draft!

 

If you look at the bright side, we have a much better draft pick now.. Only Carolina, Buffalo, Detroit, and Arizona have worse records than us...

 

 

Well thats like telling your defense "oh btw you suck so were not letting them get another chance to get the ball"...That right there had to deflate the whole psyche of the defense...sorry...you play to win...not lose...It was caca coaching playing close to the vest.

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Well thats like telling your defense "oh btw you suck so were not letting them get another chance to get the ball"...That right there had to deflate the whole psyche of the defense...sorry...you play to win...not lose...It was caca coaching playing close to the vest.

 

i agree nicks but what other option do we really have? we have lousy receivers a weak right side of the line which makes our offense one dimensional...ala....give the ball to hillis or throw to watson. other than that what is there?

 

draft next year is KEY!!!!!

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Okay...this is the way I see it: Immediately after the Buffalo game, Holmgren met with Mangini, and told him that there was no chance that he would be coming back next season...probably in a heated discussion, and not planned. Mangini, knowing that Holmgren did not want McCoy to play at all the rest of the season, decided a little retribution was in order. He announced early in the week that Colt would be the starting qb for the rest of the season...very out of character for head coaches in general, but especially Mangini. Holmgren wouldn't over ride this, once it was out there, because he has said in the past that Mangini makes those decisions. Of course the news of the imminent coaching change reached the players. That explains the poor play of the team...especially the defense. This is the way I see it. Maybe I'm way off, but it's kind of obvious that something is going on. Keep in mind... I am still a Mangini supporter and wish that he would return as HC for next season. If that slim chance would take place, I would also hope that his OC nd DC would be fired and then shot, but tortured first. When Mangini is fired, I won't be happy, but maybe I'm just an idiot fan who thinks that changing coaches every other season could be the wrong way to produce a winning team.

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Well if you think that changing coaches is the wrong way to go why are you buying and playing into the speculation? Just let it go.

I would say...it is a lot more than just speculation at this point. Too many signs to ignore. Just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen....or that it is wrong, for that matter.

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I think Holmgren is aware of the coaching circus that this team has been through. I know he is aware of the quarterback circus we have also had going on. I think they took a chance on McCoy to be honest. They took a chance not many were willing to take early on. Has proved that the game of chance is rewarding? So far, yes. For the short term, what we have seen, yes, he is the best thing we have to an on field leader.

 

However, will the growing pains be kept to a minimum?

 

I think the same goes with the coaching. Any head coach can come in and change whatever they want. But eventually you simply have to stick with someone. I don't think Mike hates Mangini at all. I know Mike is itching to coach again because he did it for a long time. I don't think that itch will EVER go away. Look at Brett Favre as a huge example. A lot of good athletes and good coaches have a very tough time figuring out when they should exit the game. The game becomes too much and becomes an all encompassing figure emotionally, mentally and physically. So, yes, Mike wants to coach.

 

However, his contract is the president of the organization. He signed on to turn things around. Mike doesn't seem like the type of guy to back down from a challenge. It's simply not him. The drafting process has been a lot better this year than we've seen in a while. Not better in the sense of breakout amazing players in everyone we've drafted but there has been a consistency there. Even if it's not apparent, take a hard look at the facts, figures and some of the stats. There IS a consistency there. There is a consistency with the team OVERALL. Just because we're not winning games like we did early on (patriots, saints) doesn't mean we aren't consistent in a lot of areas.

 

We have all witnessed the changes and the positive things. But we are so collectively used to seeing the negative and that is an instant frustration. That frustration outweighs the fact that us as fans and critics alike are witnessing something positive and we don't want to believe in it. We're afraid to believe in it.

 

Mangini will stay. I think our OC will likely be let go but it's not all on the coaches. Our players have to execute and they have to read schemes well. Where there is consistency there will always be another inconsistency. Another negative that shines through like a red dot on a piece of white paper. But you work around that. We are a better team.

 

I don't think Mike wants that circus. He's not about the circus. Mike himself took a chance on Delhomme. He thought he had more gas in the tank and just had a bad year. Well, so far, that hasn't bee correct. But for every error the new regime has made, there have been 10 positives.

 

 

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I think Holmgren is aware of the coaching circus that this team has been through. I know he is aware of the quarterback circus we have also had going on. I think they took a chance on McCoy to be honest. They took a chance not many were willing to take early on. Has proved that the game of chance is rewarding? So far, yes. For the short term, what we have seen, yes, he is the best thing we have to an on field leader.

 

However, will the growing pains be kept to a minimum?

 

I think the same goes with the coaching. Any head coach can come in and change whatever they want. But eventually you simply have to stick with someone. I don't think Mike hates Mangini at all. I know Mike is itching to coach again because he did it for a long time. I don't think that itch will EVER go away. Look at Brett Favre as a huge example. A lot of good athletes and good coaches have a very tough time figuring out when they should exit the game. The game becomes too much and becomes an all encompassing figure emotionally, mentally and physically. So, yes, Mike wants to coach.

 

However, his contract is the president of the organization. He signed on to turn things around. Mike doesn't seem like the type of guy to back down from a challenge. It's simply not him. The drafting process has been a lot better this year than we've seen in a while. Not better in the sense of breakout amazing players in everyone we've drafted but there has been a consistency there. Even if it's not apparent, take a hard look at the facts, figures and some of the stats. There IS a consistency there. There is a consistency with the team OVERALL. Just because we're not winning games like we did early on (patriots, saints) doesn't mean we aren't consistent in a lot of areas.

 

We have all witnessed the changes and the positive things. But we are so collectively used to seeing the negative and that is an instant frustration. That frustration outweighs the fact that us as fans and critics alike are witnessing something positive and we don't want to believe in it. We're afraid to believe in it.

 

Mangini will stay. I think our OC will likely be let go but it's not all on the coaches. Our players have to execute and they have to read schemes well. Where there is consistency there will always be another inconsistency. Another negative that shines through like a red dot on a piece of white paper. But you work around that. We are a better team.

 

I don't think Mike wants that circus. He's not about the circus. Mike himself took a chance on Delhomme. He thought he had more gas in the tank and just had a bad year. Well, so far, that hasn't bee correct. But for every error the new regime has made, there have been 10 positives.

I agree with everything you said, here...excellent post. I hope you are right. I just don't know enough about Holmgren to have the confidence that he will keep Mangini. The last thing I want to hear again, is...."5 year plan"...or "rebuilding season". We don't need Gruden....we need to keep the consistency that you mentioned. It worries me that I didn't see any evidence of that yesterday.

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Let me start by saying this isnt to bash mangini but to ask some basic questions..

 

So I am sure everyone has read that Colt Mccoy and Hillis were quoted as saying we lacked motivation the last two weeks.

 

 

Everyone keeps on saying we play hard under mangini, if that is the case then why the last two weeks?

 

Also people keep on saying we lack talent, which i would agree with to an extent. We lack WR's and a passrush there are other areas but not as extreme.

 

My question is, if we lack talent then why did we beat the pats and saints.

 

Did coaches, coach really well those two weeks and then not coach well the other games. Also when you lack talent in the nfl you ussually have those glaring games when it is obvious. Such as the seahawks, Cardinals, denver where they will get blown out by quality teams..

 

We have not got blown out, in fact we have been in every game. There wasnt one game where you could point to and say, gee they are just so much better than us..

 

Good coaching you beat the teams you suppose to beat.

 

No we are not talented enough to be a play off team, but we should be 8 and 8.

 

This looks aweful familiar with the way the Jets played down the stretch manginis last year there. and i know, i know favre was hurt, but if you watched the games he wasnt the only one playing like poop..

 

So what's your take on the 2 weeks, and the whole season playing down to the level of competition...

 

 

"its begining to look a lot like Gruden"

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As a Mangini fan, I'm seriously depressed. The last two games we got beat in just the manner we're supposed to beat teams. I'm just as confused as Mangini must be. Where did things go wrong, exactly? Why have we been consistently dominated at the line of scrimage?

 

I do think Mangini's been a bit too conservative recently, not going for it at the goal line when your o-line is supposed to be the team's strength.

 

Mangini's professorial style appeals to me, and I like the Belichick model of outsmarting with smart/good-character guys, but one has to worry that he's not getting them fired up-- at least after these last couple of weeks. I really hope that we're not going to go to the other extreme and get a rah-rah coach like in SF or Seattle. Gruden? Yikes!

 

It also worries me that Mangini may have failed at a crucial task: that of surrounding himself with top-notch coordinators. At least he got it right with special teams.

 

It looks like we'll be getting a new head coach, and my head is hanging low. I still believe that Mangini will learn from his mistakes, so I really hope he doesn't end up in Cincy!

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I am aslo a Mangini fan, but I aslo think this is the beginning of the end......There is no way we should have lost the last 3 games. We at least should have won 2 out of 3...

 

 

 

 

The Rumors coming out of Tampa is that Gruden said that we would not mine coaching the Browns, but the asking price is around 7 million a year..Again take it for what is worth rumors are rumors!!!!!

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Losing those last two games sealed it. And then our two face of the franchise guys, McCoy and Hillis, questioned if the team cared enough, basically. Talk about throwing dirt on a guy.

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I honestly think this ship has sailed. Mangini is gone. Holmgren will staff up with his guys and his systems, mostly about what's best for McCoy moving forward. I'm pleased because McCoy was born to be a WCO QB and we have a lot of nice pieces for that (it's almost always two backs including a TB who can catch and the TE is really important, for instance).

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Two things buried Mangini, and he is buried: First, his hope was to field a really good defense, keeping the door open to focusing on an overhaul on only one side of the ball... but that hasn't happened. Our defense couldn't get off the field against a Bengals team that had really struggled in just about every phase of offensive football.

 

Secondly, the Browns two most popular players right now -- Hills and McCoy -- both came out and said the team just didn't seem to care enough, wasn't motivated. That's football-ese for, "Our coaches didn't have the team ready to play." I can't say if they did it knowingly, but they damn near fired Mangini.

 

He's gone. We can start talking about candidates. Gruden, Harbaugh, and Mariucci seem like the obvious ones. I like all three.

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And then our two face of the franchise guys, McCoy and Hillis, questioned if the team cared enough, basically.

 

I didn't hear that. Got a link?

 

Zombo

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I totally agree with your line of questioning. I do believe they did better to coach up the team those first several weeks. The issue is with the talent. I believe they have talent, the problem is depth at those key positions. Fugita is talented, as is Robaire Smith. The problem is they both got hurt. Their replacements aren't as good a tackling. The same goes for the offensive line. Those are key areas where games are won and lost. You can have the best game plan in place, but if the players don't execute, they won't win. I believe Mangini will get another year because of the fact they never got blown out despite haveing one of the toughest schedules. However, I won't be surprised if he gets the axe after this year. I believe Holmgren will make the right choice going forward, whoever that may be. I just hate being in a perpetual state of rebuilding. I believe we can win with Mangini, but not if Daboll keeps his current position. We also need to build depth and develop some of the talent we do have.

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Let me start by saying this isnt to bash mangini but to ask some basic questions..

 

So I am sure everyone has read that Colt Mccoy and Hillis were quoted as saying we lacked motivation the last two weeks.

 

 

Everyone keeps on saying we play hard under mangini, if that is the case then why the last two weeks?

 

Also people keep on saying we lack talent, which i would agree with to an extent. We lack WR's and a passrush there are other areas but not as extreme.

 

My question is, if we lack talent then why did we beat the pats and saints.

 

Did coaches, coach really well those two weeks and then not coach well the other games. Also when you lack talent in the nfl you ussually have those glaring games when it is obvious. Such as the seahawks, Cardinals, denver where they will get blown out by quality teams..

 

We have not got blown out, in fact we have been in every game. There wasnt one game where you could point to and say, gee they are just so much better than us..

 

Good coaching you beat the teams you suppose to beat.

 

No we are not talented enough to be a play off team, but we should be 8 and 8.

 

This looks aweful familiar with the way the Jets played down the stretch manginis last year there. and i know, i know favre was hurt, but if you watched the games he wasnt the only one playing like poop..

 

So what's your take on the 2 weeks, and the whole season playing down to the level of competition...

 

 

"its begining to look a lot like Gruden"

 

We really should not have beaten the Saints and the Pats. We got lucky. Winning those two games I think created an unfair aura of victory and an even bigger expectation on us to win. This team is still a maturing team that does not know how to grind out victories.

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Wow talk about grasping for straws...did you even read the article? It talks about McCoy basically taking blame for not getting the team in a good enough groove to keep drives sustained...

 

"You've got to win games like this," McCoy, who finished with a 132.6 rating, said after the 19-17 loss to the Bengals. "It's our division -- you've got to get hyped up. I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy -- we lacked a little bit of intensity. And that stems from me, that stems from the older guys on this team, and it stems from all of us coming together and really playing with a lot of energy and a lot of focus. It's hard to do late in the season. But if you want to be a successful football team and want to play great late in the stretch, that's what you've got to do."

 

Where is he blaming Mangini?

 

"The whole team has to be involved and has to be motivated and stuff like that," said Hillis. "We have to get to that point. We're so 'off and on' through the whole game. We've got to get to the point where we're like that every drive."

 

Once again...logical for a team at this stage of their development...no blame on coaching here either.

 

While I think this is a tough time for Holmgren/Mangini that could end up with EM's firing, it will be a careful thought out action by MH REGARDLESS of what our "blame game " fan base thinks. I for one think its still too early to tell if EM is bad or just chose a bad OC to represent him. Lets get a new OC in here with one more year of good drafts and FA before we drop the revolving coach door bomb...

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If I tried to do that, Mikey, I'd be faking it. I know Walsh's offense uses two backs, usually two receivers, and a TE. I know it's heavy on slants, bigger "YAC" receivers, and a very high-percentage passing game. Needs an accurate passer but not necessarily a cannon and mobility is a really good thing.

 

I know that Haskell/Holmgren have integrated "WCO elements" into Daboll's offense, which indirectly comes from the Parcells coaching tree, which I believe runs the same offense as the Jimmy Johnson coaching tree because they're both from the same source I can't remember (but someone else has brought up). This offense and the WCO are the two major "trees."

 

Was it the Alabama coach who became coach of the Giants 30 years ago? And does it connect to Coryell in any way? I know Walsh comes from Paul Brown and was the one who coined WCO.

 

It would be awesome if somebody could delineate these coaching trees and offenses. It's pretty fascinating.

 

 

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I am not surprised. I expected a let down. We played a lot of tough games in a row then go on the road for two straight when we have been basically eliminated from the playoffs. If those games had been at home we would probably win both.

 

But, we have two home games and I think the team will be highly motivated for these, if only because they came out and said they lacked motivation. No coach has his team up for every game, it is almost impossible. We lack a couple of playmakers who can quickly turn a loss into a win.

 

We easily beat the pats and aints which were big games at the time. But, this team knows it is out of the playoffs and playing on the road. I know that personal pride is a motivator but some players need more than that.

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Buddy,

 

football players are human beings. You cannot expect the same results week in and week out. As teams develop an identity, a freaternity and a culture, they get better and better at minimizing the distractions and errors that prevent consistent play.

 

When winning requires the entire team to be emotionally and physically near perfection, it is next to impossible to win with regularity. The wins you referred to happened because on those days everything was in line for the Browns.

 

As you add talent, experience and confidence to the team, the irregularities in performance of individual players on any given day affect the team less and less.

 

Right now, for the Browns to win, any individual let down pressures the entire team. We just don't have the talent, experience and confidence to overcome that right now.

 

As I have said before, I abandoned the Lerner Browns for a long time because I didn't believe the team was building the proper core values. Call me emotional or whatever you want, but I believe in this team and in this organization. I even think Lerner finally gets it.

 

This wishing for Gruden is not good. Let me ask you something; lets put aside the Superbowl he won, and let's put aside how afterwards his team degraded.

 

Just let's talk about Gruden. What are the core values about him that make you want him? What is his legacy as far as behavior, principle and achievement? In all honestly? I sense more of that Lombardi loyalty brewing in Cleveland with Mangini, than I do from ex Gruden players.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

I want Mangini to stay.

 

Ask yourself this much - What do you think Mangini's record would be if he had a shifty RB, a top WR and a bastard pass rusher added to this season? Do you not believe that most, if not all of these close losses would have been converted to wins?

 

Ah, he is too conservative on offense? Fair enough, but as I see it, this team is on teh right track.

 

 

 

I think gruden gets a bad rap when it comes to some of his x players. Simeon Rice called him a scumbag, cause he was released after being injured. Simeon was a popular player and it didnt go over well with some of the players im sure. It was a business move and was best for the team.

 

When he coached in Oakland he was able to do what other coaches havent be able to do and that is win with a crappy owner. He is a fiery guy who is from the same tree as Holmgren. As far as the knock he cant develop young qbs, not really fair cause he only had Chris simms. He is an extremely smart guy, as is mangini.

 

Let me ask you, do you really think Mangini is the guy to get us to a superbowl? Players in New York wore thin on his act. I think Mangini has so much going against him.

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I don't recall seeing so much forward progress on a learner Browns team in the past.

Mangini has giving this team direction.

If next year we were to improve as much as we did this year you can see this could be a team to reckoned with.

Why cant we learn from our past mistake and give a coach that IS making big improvements the time he needs to turn this team around.

I am so tired of us browns fans giving up on our coaches after a few years and then we all wonder why we stay in the basement.

Let the team stay on the Mangini plan a few more years and I think we may final reap our rewards!

 

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As I understand it, and I definitely could be wrong (this is how it's been explained to me), but the big difference between the WCO and the Parcell's family offense is the idea of establishing the passing game first, versus the running game first. The rest of the differences are basically a consequence of that difference in philosophy.

 

A WCO uses short to intermediate timing routes by necessity. You need to complete a high percentage of your passes to move the chains. Many times you need the ball to come out before the receiver has even broken and turned around to face the QB.

 

But WCO doesn't mean "lots of short to intermediate passes," although that's a consequence of it. It refers to an offensive strategy that is in direct and total opposition to the run first philosophy. Using certain plays that a WCO might use doesn't mean you have some sort of run-first, west coast hybrid.

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Ok honest question..

 

What coaching mistakes can we learn from.? Who did we hire that deserved more time?

 

I'm really confused on that argument..

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Ok honest question..

 

What coaching mistakes can we learn from.? Who did we hire that deserved more time?

 

I'm really confused on that argument..

Im not confused at all. You love Gruden in some sick way and thats all you talk about. Give it a rest. I can't speak for everybody on here but I for one am sick of hearing about him.

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Im not confused at all. You love Gruden in some sick way and thats all you talk about. Give it a rest. I can't speak for everybody on here but I for one am sick of hearing about him.

 

Its not just me, now its the media and they are even more annoying than myself.

 

I only mentioned him in this thread to answer a question..

 

When you say I love gruden are u saying in the biblical sense

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I don't understand the Gruden love.

 

 

he's a good coach, but the guy is hard on QB's.

 

 

His offensive isn't all that innovative. The only thing different about it is the strange terminology he uses.

 

He understands it, but his QBs have a hard time understanding it.

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