For everyone who loves the 4-3 so much...

[JewDago]

what, about the scheme and the personnel we have, makes the 4-3 a much better fit for us than the 3-4?

 

rogers has been an absolute beast in the 3-4. statistically, he's on par with his career averages and has impacted games far more than simple stats can tell.

 

corey williams has been hurt and would be ineffective no matter what.

 

d'qwell is coming on nicely. he's making tackles all over the field and even has a few picks. his impact is equal regardless of scheme.

 

wimbley would be rushing the passer and getting manhandled in the 4-3.

 

andra davis is done no matter what.

 

shaun smith would be even less effective.

 

athyba rubin would also be ineffective in a 4-3 (too slow).

 

if we're worried about the future, it looks like this year is one of the best years possible to draft personnel for the 3-4. there are a ton of guys with mad scheme versatility.

 

why change now?

[samoth]

4-3 allows better pressure from the line, allowing the linebackers to clean up. 3-4 theoretically allows for the linebackers to provide the pressure, but they never do in our system.

[WPB Dawg Fan]

In the 4-3, Williams and Rogers would both be playing DT...which is where they should be. We would also have nice backup for them in S.Smith and Rubin....but at the DE position we would be without a legit player.

 

I think R.Smith may be able to do it...and maybe Purcell and Thomas...but nobody proven in the system.

 

We would also end up with either using DQ as our MLB as he has the speed and is about the right size. He is also our best LB at this point. But again, the vast majority of our LB's are too big to be true 4-3 guys.

 

We would need to bring in a TON of players to make a full switch....

 

That is why I keep coming back to Rex Ryan as coach. He does a HYBRID of the 3-4/4-3...and is able to use 3-4 personnel in it.

[ITHIKA]

I agree this D is really only two impact players and a new 3-4 philosophy away from being very good! Think about this, say Cowher, Shotty or Ryan come in as the head coach. They will most certainly imploy the 1 gap 3-4. Now for those that aren't firmilair with the difference read this thread. http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1413

 

Here's a scenario, we draft Maualuga resign Jones, and add Suggs in FA this would be an incredibly talented D. All of this is not a pipe dream but very much a reality. This team has talent lets stick with the 3-4 and build on it!

[samoth]

Instead of paying whatever insane salary Jones is going to ask for, I say we pick up OJ Atogwe who will probably want big bucks as well but at least he can back it up consistently on the field.

[JewDago]

i agree about ryan, WPB. he's been lost recently in the cowher/schotty fervor but has the defensive mind to use our personnel to the best of their abilities by creating schemes that fit them.

 

i agree that we'd not have a single viable DE on the team were we to switch to the 4-3.

 

one advantage of jones is we can franchise him. yes, we'll be paying him the average of the 5 highest paid players at his position, but it ensured us one more year with him if we don't get a replacement like atogwe, who looks like someone we should definitely be interested in.

[Riffer X]

Keep in mind we had a $100 million line when we ran a 4/3 before and led the league in being last against the run.

 

Brown and Warren looked devastating on paper, then we had guys like Roye and Ekuban/Lang.

 

Sometimes I think the Browns could have the Pro Bowl starting defense and they would suck. Something about the uniform.

[samoth]

Courtney Brown was a victim of unlucky injuries -- the guy should have been a stud for a long time. Lunch Money Warren was just a terrible pick full of red flags when Seymour and Stroud were both available (not to mention Tomlinson).

[SuperSteelers]

The 3-4 is a beast of a D. However, you need the personel to make it effective. It starts with fast LB's in the middle and powerful outside lb's that can cover the pass. Watch the Steeler D and mold your team into that to become a great D

[roach]

what, about the scheme and the personnel we have, makes the 4-3 a much better fit for us than the 3-4?

 

rogers has been an absolute beast in the 3-4. statistically, he's on par with his career averages and has impacted games far more than simple stats can tell.

 

corey williams has been hurt and would be ineffective no matter what.

 

d'qwell is coming on nicely. he's making tackles all over the field and even has a few picks. his impact is equal regardless of scheme.

 

wimbley would be rushing the passer and getting manhandled in the 4-3.

 

andra davis is done no matter what.

 

shaun smith would be even less effective.

 

athyba rubin would also be ineffective in a 4-3 (too slow).

 

if we're worried about the future, it looks like this year is one of the best years possible to draft personnel for the 3-4. there are a ton of guys with mad scheme versatility.

 

why change now?

 

Wow. Take a chill pill. You're looking for a winning formula in a defensive lineup? Is that what we've come to as Browns Fans?

 

What are we running now? a 3-4?

 

What did we run last year when we won 10 games and Wimbley played in a 3 point stance for the majority of the plays? 3-4? No- it was a 4-3.

 

Guys, please please please recognize that the 3-4 is a gimmick. It was vogue is the late 80's/ early 90's and will circle through again several times over the next many years. It doesn't matter. Some teams (like the Steelers) have used it and most teams have tried it. If you don't rush 4 (or more) you're toast. Period.

 

If you can't stop the run AND you don't have a pass rush, the number of guys that puts their hand on the ground before the snap doesn't matter.

 

 

 

[Riffer X]

The DE's are what make a 4/3 go.

 

If they can get to the QB it is a very effective defense.

[JewDago]

Guys, please please please recognize that the 3-4 is a gimmick. It was vogue is the late 80's/ early 90's and will circle through again several times over the next many years. It doesn't matter. Some teams (like the Steelers) have used it and most teams have tried it. If you don't rush 4 (or more) you're toast. Period.

while i agree that you need to rush at least four to be effective, the point of the 3-4 is to disguise where the last rusher is coming from. only truly terrible coaches who are willing to get no rush on the QB at all are willing to rush three. you'll see the steelers do it once in every four games or so, and then only in third and twenty or more situations.

 

rac's a 3-4 guy. we've run it every year he's been here. when wimbley puts his hand down, we're going to a 2-4-5 nickel look with 2 of the LBs putting their hands down to form a 4-man line. we've done it this year, too, and i'm still not a fan of how we do it. again, having 4 guys with their hands down negates point of the 3-4, disguising where the rush is coming from.

 

@ riffer: 4-3 DEs do make that defense go, but you can still run it effectively without a great set of DEs. look at philly. their ends aren't really standouts, but their scheme is devastating. the teams that i think best exemplify DEs making the scheme work are tampa and indy, and they both run the tampa 2, a defense i personally would never want to run.

 

even good blitzing 4-3 teams apply 3-4 principles. it's why philly and the giants routinely stack the line then drop some guys and bring others. it confuses the offensive line and is an additional way to bring pressure that is harder to stop than a simple one-on-one battle between a DE and an OT.

[Flugel]

what, about the scheme and the personnel we have, makes the 4-3 a much better fit for us than the 3-4?

 

rogers has been an absolute beast in the 3-4. statistically, he's on par with his career averages and has impacted games far more than simple stats can tell.

 

corey williams has been hurt and would be ineffective no matter what.

 

d'qwell is coming on nicely. he's making tackles all over the field and even has a few picks. his impact is equal regardless of scheme.

 

wimbley would be rushing the passer and getting manhandled in the 4-3.

 

andra davis is done no matter what.

 

shaun smith would be even less effective.

 

athyba rubin would also be ineffective in a 4-3 (too slow).

 

if we're worried about the future, it looks like this year is one of the best years possible to draft personnel for the 3-4. there are a ton of guys with mad scheme versatility.

 

why change now?

 

Awesome topic JD! I actually posted something similar preseason or maybe it was earlier in the regular season. Anyway, I saw the personnel to use a 4-3. Williams came from a 4-3. Tennessee uses the 4-3 and that's what we pulled Robaire out of. Rogers played in a 4-3 before coming here. I think Wimbley might have better success standing up and coming in off outside X stunts where he isn't being blocked by the best athlete on the opponent's oline every single play. Jackson would probably get touched less frequently by Centers if we had Shaun Smith and Shaun Rogers going Sumo and Slamo on the G-C gaps.

 

That said, a few weeks ago it was either Gannon, Beuerline or Randy Cross pointing out we had 4 guys with a hand down up front on every play so he said the Browns are not in a 3-4 right now. On the replay he showed you only have 2 backers, 4 dlinemen and 5 DBs on the field. I watched the majority of our plays thereafter and he was right.

 

This is just my opinion BUT I think the year NE got ravaged by injuries to Ty Warren, Jarvis Green and Klecko that they found they were actually better suited for a 3-4 than a 4-3. People often forget they were running a 4-3 with Ted Johnson playing MLBer. Guys like Bruschi and Vrabel played college ball with a hand down every play BUT they had the athleticism to play standing up. When Vrabel was in Pittsburgh he always played with a hand down and his career wasn't anywhere near as good as it got in NE. Let's not forget what rounds their current dline were drafted in Wilfork? Round 1, Seymour? Round 1, Warren? Round 1. Wanna bet we pay out more money on our Free Agent dline as we speak? That ain't good! I wish we could DRAFT decent trench warriors after a 3rd overall pick but we've done horrible with that.

 

A HUGE reason coaches like the 3-4 scheme is because of the challenges presented with a 45 man roster and the thought process that the more athletic LBers they have on the roster - the better their STs will be. Chaun Thompson was a MONSTER on our STs. In 2007, I remembered seeing 3 tackles inside the opponet's 12 yard line from him on kickoff coverages alone because he runs those 4.5s at 255 pounds. I also saw him flattening people for Cribbs in the return game. He never really became the LBer I wanted him to be BUT when Savage extended Davis' contract, Paid Willie top buck, drafted Jackson and Williams - were we ever going to give the former small school kid the SAME chances even though he had the flexibility to play inside or outside? Granthom liked Thompson while Savage and RAC were still on their honeymoon playing the role of "yes dear. ' Cribbs and Thompson were a nice wedge busters tandem. Mike Adams and Nick Sorenson do a nice job but neither kid packs the same punch as a 255 pounder running 4.5s.

 

I notice some defenses SCORE almost every week like the injury depleted Colts. They scored on us to beat us 10-6. They scored twice on Rosenfels to come from behind. They scored on their last opponents and yet - I've already read more than a few national columns stating it's Peyton Manning that deserves the 2008 MVP. How original? What's Miami's record all of a sudden? What's NE's record WITHOUT Tom Brady? What's Baltimore done in Life after Boller? How many losses does Tennessee and Pittsburgh have combined? Geee, just another year of it can only be Peyton Manning for MVP. If Indy's defense didn't beat us Peyton only had 3 uninspiring points on the scoreboard to our 6. That guy even gets more love than Jesus in the Bible belt. Nice kid and all but what's his secret? Dallas Clark has about 30 catches in his last 2 games so it's not like Manning has to cure cancer every play. MVP????

 

How COME Indy can draft a guy like Dwight Freeney and we can only draft a guy like Kam Wimbley as our pas rush specialist? I don't care if it's 4-3 or 3-4 - you're either GOOD at sic em or you're limited at it. Wimbley was good until everyone got him on film and he's been limited ever since.

 

While people are gonna say coaching - ok, to an extent. That said, was Jon Gruden REALLY a better defensive coach than Tony Dungy in Tampa? Take a look at how many TDs TB's Defense scored in the only Superbowl they were good enough to make. Was he just better at coaching the Defense at producing turnovers and scoring off them? Oh wait, Monte Kiffen's light switch just went off and he woke up alot more intelligent the first day Tony Dungy left. Monte Kiffen was the DC the first day Tony Dungy coached that team and he's STILL the DC there. Guys like Herm Edwards , Rod Marinelli and Lovie Smith were just position coaches UNDER Kiffen believe it or not. Edwards was an Assistant Head Coach as well as a DBs Coach while Lovie Smith Coached the LBers and Rod Marinelli was a dline coach. Gruden had the same luxury that John Harbaugh walked into which is "don't worry about the defense."

 

Are Ryan and Kiffen different people with different brains then they had before Head Coaches changed? Not really folks! Losing Kyle Boller and Trent Dilfer just make the margin of error alot more ergonomically friendly to work with. Those guys gave away more gifts than Santa Claus. Not to be outdone, DA gave Indy's and Baltimore's defense a few ho ho ho's of his own. I think I'd rather see Mommy kissing Santa Claus than our opponents thanking him after every TD he treats them too. Sorry Lums, I know you'd like to sit on his lap and talk about the first thing that pops up.

- Tom F. (Did I just get side-tracked? Come on, you needed a few laughs)

[JewDago]

Awesome topic JD! I actually posted something similar preseason or maybe it was earlier in the regular season. Anyway, I saw the personnel to use a 4-3. Williams came from a 4-3. Tennessee uses the 4-3 and that's what we pulled Robaire out of. Rogers played in a 4-3 before coming here. I think Wimbley might have better success standing up and coming in off outside X stunts where he isn't being blocked by the best athlete on the opponent's oline every single play. Jackson would probably get touched less frequently by Centers if we had Shaun Smith and Shaun Rogers going Sumo and Slamo on the G-C gaps.

 

That said, a few weeks ago it was either Gannon, Beuerline or Randy Cross pointing out we had 4 guys with a hand down up front on every play so he said the Browns are not in a 3-4 right now. On the replay he showed you only have 2 backers, 4 dlinemen and 5 DBs on the field. I watched the majority of our plays thereafter and he was right.

 

while i agree that wimbley would have greater success if he weren't rushing from the same spot all the time or if he could stunt some, that's something that can be done from the 3-4 if the coach is willing to either move him around or has a creative, blitz-oriented mind.

 

when we go to a four-man line in our nickel package, we're switching to a 2-4-5 and taking a d-lineman out in favor of a third corner. we move our OLBs to the line and have them play with their hands down like traditional DEs. it's pretty much the same thing as a traditional nickel, but the personnel switch is a little different because we're switching out a d-lineman and not a LB. we normally switch out shaun smith for one of our terrible backup corners.

 

one thing that rac hasn't tried that i wish he would is a 3-3-5 with our normal line and pulling andra davis in favor of mike adams and having adams play somewhat of a roaming role as a hybrid third corner/outside linebacker.

 

the big difference might be that d'qwell would be less exposed to having a center or guard come after him, but rogers always swallows at least two guys on any given play unless they let him run himself out of it, so there's minimal exposure to d'qwell as it is.

 

switching schemes entirely would set us back personnel-wise, and i don't think that's something we can afford at this point. we need a creative defensive mind who can draw up a scheme that works with the people we have, someone like rex ryan.