60 minutes

[heckofajobbrownie]

I think you've got the spending part entirely backwards. We should be spending lots of money now. It's the long term, defense, and entitlement spending that needs to be cut.

 

Don't have much time today. More later.

 

...And what are we talking about now? You've changed the subject again.

[Westside Steve]

I think you've got the spending part entirely backwards. We should be spending lots of money now. It's the long term, defense, and entitlement spending that needs to be cut.

 

Don't have much time today. More later.

 

...And what are we talking about now? You've changed the subject again.

 

Actually I thought we were talking about the high unemployment rate.

 

Isn't speculating on the reasons and ways to address that fact relevant?

 

PS Thought of you at rehearsal last night as I checked the results in the Droid.

The Huff had a pretty good scoreboard.

(That wasn't an insult; I thought you'd think it was humorous I had the HuffPo up and running)

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I can't tell what you're proposing we do about any of it. Seems like an argument for shrugging and saying, "Oh, well."

 

If the economy starts sliding back down into real negative territory, which is possible, all of those problems you mentioned suddenly get a lot worse. The budget becomes even more unbalanced. The debt rises even higher. Things get even harder to turn around. There are things we can do to help lower the chance that this happens. Do they have costs? Sure, they do. Everything does. (Unless you're a Republican, and then tax cuts are somehow free.)

 

Short-term spending, infrastructure projects, long-term entitlement reform, reductions in defense spending, and tax reform.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Here you go. He gets it:

 

WASHINGTON -- President Obama said Wednesday that Congress should reauthorize extended unemployment insurance for the long-term jobless.

 

"I think it makes sense for us to extend unemployment insurance because there's still a lot of folks out there hurting," Obama said during a press conference following a Democratic wipeout in the midterm elections on Tuesday.

 

Federally-funded extended benefits, which in some states give the unemployed 73 weeks of aid on top of the 26 weeks traditionally provided by state governments, will expire at the end of November if Congress takes no action. That means the House and Senate will have less than two weeks from when they reconvene on Nov. 15 to reach an agreement that took nearly two months this summer.

 

Obama said extending the benefits would be among the things "that we can do right now that will help sustain the recovery and advance it, even as we're sitting down and figuring out, okay, over the next several years, what kind of a budget cut can we make that are intelligent, smart, and won't be undermining our recovery and won't be encouraging job growth."

 

Congressional Republicans stood in near-unanimous opposition to reauthorizing the jobless aid this summer, citing the deficit impact of the benefits.

[calfoxwc]

If we agreed to extend UI how about those guys?

Wouldn't it be as beneficial to offer them benefits as well?

 

Now lets look at the big picture.

Steve

******************************

Now that I have hopefully convinced you, Heck, that the self employed DO NOT GET UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE,

 

CONSULTANTS (self-employed contract workers) DON'T EITHER, despite your smarting off that I was wrong....

 

at least in Ohio, I KNOW you're wrong...

 

nationally, that is a LOt of folks who don't get any help at all. Extended the unemployment payments

 

can't be continued past the amount of money taken in. You keep extending for what, years?

 

and it will also go so bankrupt, it can't be continued.

 

Enough with the corrupt buying of votes from the needy, dependent, and the college students who never paid taxes...

 

after the overwhelming success of Republicans being elected as a slapdown to Obamao's policies...

 

you're still here touting his policies? ROF,L !

 

Now, really. Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

[Westside Steve]

Here you go. He gets it:

 

WASHINGTON -- President Obama said Wednesday that Congress should reauthorize extended unemployment insurance for the long-term jobless.

 

"I think it makes sense for us to extend unemployment insurance because there's still a lot of folks out there hurting," Obama said during a press conference following a Democratic wipeout in the midterm elections on Tuesday.

 

Federally-funded extended benefits, which in some states give the unemployed 73 weeks of aid on top of the 26 weeks traditionally provided by state governments, will expire at the end of November if Congress takes no action. That means the House and Senate will have less than two weeks from when they reconvene on Nov. 15 to reach an agreement that took nearly two months this summer.

 

Obama said extending the benefits would be among the things "that we can do right now that will help sustain the recovery and advance it, even as we're sitting down and figuring out, okay, over the next several years, what kind of a budget cut can we make that are intelligent, smart, and won't be undermining our recovery and won't be encouraging job growth."

You think he means "discouraging "or am I reading it wrong?

WSS

 

Congressional Republicans stood in near-unanimous opposition to reauthorizing the jobless aid this summer, citing the deficit impact of the benefits.

 

[Mr. T]

Those who rob Peter to pay Paul will always have the support from Paul.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Yeah, he either misspoke or they quoted him wrong.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Better job numbers than I expected today, but still not nearly enough.

 

And Steve, your last long post about some of the causes of the current problem is fine in places, but nobody is really talking about using the government to prop up jobs that have disappeared because of productivity improvements, or outsourcing, etc. So that's a separate point.

 

Yes, those jobs aren't coming back.

[hoorta]

I think you've got the spending part entirely backwards. We should be spending lots of money now. It's the long term, defense, and entitlement spending that needs to be cut.

 

Don't have much time today. More later.

 

...And what are we talking about now? You've changed the subject again.

 

I'll jump in here.

 

Yeah, right- spending lots of money THAT WE DON'T HAVE. (short of a massive tax increase) Excuse me Heck, you've been defending UI to the death in this thread- which incidentally see above- most definitely falls into the "entitlement" class.

 

So why do you ask are there no good jobs for the jobless here in America? Well, it seems that they all got shipped overseas. Now before you go blaming Big, Bad Corporate America, let's take an objective look at things. What ISN'T made in America anymore? Um, Steel, garments, and a few other industries heavily dominated by unions who coerced wages that had absolutely no relation to the value of the labor being performed. Exhibit A would be guys sweeping floors at GM making more than the guys next door, (I was saying for 30 years the pigeons would come home to roost, and they finally did) or a crane operator at the defunct Republic Steel making more than my non-union plant manager @ Reilly Chemical. Yup, there's a 1\2 billion Chinese willing to work cheap, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. Ya see, we got this caring minimum wage policy over here, plus a bunch of EPA and CFR mandated BS (which happens to cost a ton of money) that developing countries don't have to deal with.

 

I'll put you on the clock- which entitlements you in favor of cutting? Defense? Hell, we can't even beat a terrorist organization in Afghanistan as it is. Social Security is dead in the water- us Grey Panthers that are retired, or near retirement who spent our whole lives paying into that Ponzi Scheme can damn well out-vote the kiddies- or kick out of office any clown that dares suggest cutting our benefits.

 

Gawd, you Disciples of Krugman who think we can "spend our way to prosperity" ought to buy a freaking clue already. you know what's already one of the top 10 economies in the world? Financing the interest on the United States debt is what. Love that the treasury is printing another $800 billion in phony money to finance the "recovery". NOT. (them Arabs ain't stupid- the price of gas jumped in lockstep with that little gambit) Tell me Heck, how much in T-Bills do the Chinese hold? (hint: it's a few trillion) So what happens when the IOUs come due? Weimar Republic sound familiar? Nah- could never happen here. I'll say this- those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. And history says nations with a debt load that the good old USA has accumulated have never gotten out of it except by hyper-inflating the currency.

[calfoxwc]

God Bless you, Mr. Hoorta !

[heckofajobbrownie]

Hoorta, I don't even know where to start with your post. For the most part, I don't even know how it's supposed to be addressing what I've been saying. It's just a rant about ...I don't know what.

 

Let me see if I get your points:

 

1. We're currently borrowing money to finance our budget. (No shit.)

 

2. Unemployment Insurance is an entitlement program. (No, it isn't.)

 

3. Unions are bad for competitiveness. (They can be. But unionized industries aren't the only ones who have lost out to overseas competition.)

 

4. Environmental regulations are bad. (Really? Have you seen the Yalu River lately?)

 

5. Regulations are bad. (Oh boy.)

 

6. Since we haven't won in Afghanistan, there's nothing we could cut out of the defense budget. (Obviously not true.)

 

7. Social Security can't be fixed. (Not even close to being true. It could be fixed with minor adjustments.)

 

8. Krugman disciples think they can spend their way to prosperity. (This is a ridiculous statement, and not what they believe at all.)

 

9. I know that lots of our debt is being financed by China. (Good for you.)

 

10. Have you heard of the Weimar Republic? (Yes, I have.)

 

11. We're headed towards hyper-inflation. (No, we're not.)

 

 

Needless to say, I didn't think much of your screed.

[Paxton]

I prefer hoorta's "screed" to your liberal fascist creed.

[calfoxwc]

Heck, I believe you are completely wrong about most of those.

 

Care to back up, and try to have an "intelligent discussion" on any one of those topics?

[heckofajobbrownie]

I'll let you take the lead in the intelligent discussion department, Cal, as you so often do.

[dogma]

Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

 

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=7YZ767NX

Buy up all the fish and sell for a profit!

[Westside Steve]

Buy up all the fish and sell for a profit!

 

Or better yet make somebody else buy them and then gove them away!!

WSS

[Pumpkin Eater]

I'll jump in here.

 

Yeah, right- spending lots of money THAT WE DON'T HAVE. (short of a massive tax increase) Excuse me Heck, you've been defending UI to the death in this thread- which incidentally see above- most definitely falls into the "entitlement" class.

 

So why do you ask are there no good jobs for the jobless here in America? Well, it seems that they all got shipped overseas. Now before you go blaming Big, Bad Corporate America, let's take an objective look at things. What ISN'T made in America anymore? Um, Steel, garments, and a few other industries heavily dominated by unions who coerced wages that had absolutely no relation to the value of the labor being performed. Exhibit A would be guys sweeping floors at GM making more than the guys next door, (I was saying for 30 years the pigeons would come home to roost, and they finally did) or a crane operator at the defunct Republic Steel making more than my non-union plant manager @ Reilly Chemical. Yup, there's a 1\2 billion Chinese willing to work cheap, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. Ya see, we got this caring minimum wage policy over here, plus a bunch of EPA and CFR mandated BS (which happens to cost a ton of money) that developing countries don't have to deal with.

 

I'll put you on the clock- which entitlements you in favor of cutting? Defense? Hell, we can't even beat a terrorist organization in Afghanistan as it is. Social Security is dead in the water- us Grey Panthers that are retired, or near retirement who spent our whole lives paying into that Ponzi Scheme can damn well out-vote the kiddies- or kick out of office any clown that dares suggest cutting our benefits.

 

Gawd, you Disciples of Krugman who think we can "spend our way to prosperity" ought to buy a freaking clue already. you know what's already one of the top 10 economies in the world? Financing the interest on the United States debt is what. Love that the treasury is printing another $800 billion in phony money to finance the "recovery". NOT. (them Arabs ain't stupid- the price of gas jumped in lockstep with that little gambit) Tell me Heck, how much in T-Bills do the Chinese hold? (hint: it's a few trillion) So what happens when the IOUs come due? Weimar Republic sound familiar? Nah- could never happen here. I'll say this- those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. And history says nations with a debt load that the good old USA has accumulated have never gotten out of it except by hyper-inflating the currency.

 

 

sorry, UI is not an entitlement. People pay into the system before they get anything out.

 

I agree that deficit spending is a bad thing, but where where you during the 7 years Dubya was doing it WHILE THE ECONOMY WAS EXPANDING? It's far worse to overspend during times of economic expansion than it is to overspend during a stagnant economy. I don't understand how you elephants overlook that. It's hilarious how it was overlooked when it was done by Dubya but now it's a national emergency. God forbid money is spent to help actual citizens of the US, rather then foreign lands with millions of $ unaccounted for. Did you know that for every $ spent on UI, the government gets back $1.60 in tax revenue? Tell me, what kind of return has the US received on the money it spent in Iraq?

 

By the way, there are no shitty jobs. Just as many people who typically work shitty jobs are out of work as are people who work better jobs. I've applied for hundreds of shitty jobs and haven't gotten an interview. Overqualified.

[Westside Steve]

Did you know that for every $ spent on UI, the government gets back $1.60 in tax revenue?

 

Nope.

Didn't know that.

If so we should put everybody on UI.

Problem solved.

We'll be rich.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Or try this one on for hypocrisy:

 

While the right screeches about Obama's spending - in order to address the effects of an economic collapse he did not cause, by the way - over the next decade, Bush's prescription drug plan alone will cost more than the bailouts, the stimulus, and the health care bill combined.

 

And that was deficit spending during an economic expansion! Then add in the money he borrowed to finance the tax cuts, the wars, and everything else, and you begin to see what's mostly behind all of this sudden concern for the deficit - partisanship.

 

[Westside Steve]

Or try this one on for hypocrisy:

 

While the right screeches about Obama's spending - in order to address the effects of an economic collapse he did not cause, by the way - over the next decade, Bush's prescription drug plan alone will cost more than the bailouts, the stimulus, and the health care bill combined.

 

And that was deficit spending during an economic expansion! Then add in the money he borrowed to finance the tax cuts, the wars, and everything else, and you begin to see what's mostly behind all of this sudden concern for the deficit - partisanship.

 

And Bush was attacked for it too.

And we've upped the war ante, since Bush or any Republican would have gotten out of Iraq as quickly as it's happening and probably not doubled down on Afghanistan,

 

And medication for grandma isn't something anybody seems to want to eliminate.

 

But the old switcheroo aside Heck, what are the odds Obama extends the tax cuts for a couple years as I poroposed quite a while ago?

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

He's always wanted to extend the tax cuts for the middle class. Whether or not he does so for the rich, we'll see. I'd wager that he will if they let them expire in two years. But I don't get the sense that the Republicans, all hard off their big win, will go for that.

 

Personally, I'd rather see Obama take the lead and push for a larger set of tax code reforms, but I'm not holding my breath. If nothing else, I hope he chooses to fight the Republicans on high-end extension. He's got the public on his side on this one. But I don't know if he's up for that fight right now. I can't tell what fights he wants to have at all.

 

And if you want to make the case that Bush had thousands of Republicans marching on the Mall and screaming about his spending on Fox News 24/7, please do. But let's not pretend like even you can't tell the difference between the volume of the attacks on Bush and the volume of the ones on Obama coming from the right. Or that they ever even mention what the respective spending was for.

 

Bush got some token hand slaps from the right on spending, but it's hardly comparable. The same 35% that always stuck by Bush in the polls are the same 35% that have been screaming on the Mall and in the town hall meetings.

 

Again, over the next decade, all of the spending the Tea Party/Republican types are irate about doesn't even add up to Bush's prescription drug program.

 

Also, the health care law cut billions out of Medicare Advantage, and that Republicans just ran against those cuts. Do you hear anyone in Fox-Drudge-Rushland pointing out how the Democrats were right on that? No, they're out there urging repeal - a repeal that's going to raise the deficit even more.

 

They're frauds on the deficit issue. Complete frauds.

 

PS - Your analysis of Afghanistan is also off the mark, I think. The drumbeat from the right was to up the war, and it's one of the few things they support Obama on. There's no reason to believe that a McCain presidency would have drawn down there, nor did he seem keen on the idea of drawing down in Iraq.

 

 

[dogma]

The only reason Bush was ever slightly criticized by the right on spending was because of the debacle of his invasion into Iraq.

Some republicans were embarrassed and yet some still refuse to accept it was a debacle.

Others are quietly stating they were concerned about the costs.

The biggest accomplishment of the Iraq war is the Tea Party.

Republicans who are too embarrassed to be republicans anymore.

McCain/Bush would still be in Iraq AND we would be in Iran by now also. All of this without one peep of concern about tax and spend from the right wing News(?) sources.

[Westside Steve]

The only reason Bush was ever slightly criticized by the right on spending was because of the debacle of his invasion into Iraq.

Some republicans were embarrassed and yet some still refuse to accept it was a debacle.

Others are quietly stating they were concerned about the costs.

The biggest accomplishment of the Iraq war is the Tea Party.

Republicans who are too embarrassed to be republicans anymore.

McCain/Bush would still be in Iraq AND we would be in Iran by now also. All of this without one peep of concern about tax and spend from the right wing News(?) sources.

 

Actually Dog, you might consider a seperate thread for Iraq.

This on's more about unemploymet and monetary matters though we do digress.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

So the White House offered the Republicans permanent middle class extension and high-end extension for two years. Guess what the Republicans said?

 

So add another $700 billion on to the deficit that wouldn't otherwise be there. Because they're so concerned about the deficit.

 

[calfoxwc]

1. Cutting medicaid was stupid, when you are adding to the roster.

 

2. The Republicans want the tax cuts because it's right, and won't hurt the economy.

 

they also want to cut back on the size of gov. I like to see the Dept of Energy and Dept of Education

 

cut back. or eliminated. Send that money to the states. If things aren't done right, let the people in those

 

states elect different school boards, and state ed officials and reps.

 

Enough with the Fed. It's the most inefficient level to administer all governing... but it does

 

have it's place.

 

It's place is NOT every freakin where, every home, every citizen, every thing.

[heckofajobbrownie]

BTW, here's your answer, Steve. And in graphic form.

[Westside Steve]

So the White House offered the Republicans permanent middle class extension and high-end extension for two years. Guess what the Republicans said?

 

So add another $700 billion on to the deficit that wouldn't otherwise be there. Because they're so concerned about the deficit.

 

 

Well I don't care about the Republicans.

To be honest I wouldn't have made either one permanent.

But it's a smart move for Dems and if I were Axlerod I'd have advised just that temporary solution.

Here's why:

 

Keeping the cuts in place for two years kicks the can down the road again.

If (as I'd GUESS if I were the president) that will rev up the economy and stock market I'll take credit in 2012 and cite all the success of my previously maligned policies.

 

If it doesn't help I can blame the republicans in 2012.

It's a win win politically.

 

WSS

[Westside Steve]

BTW I wouldn't be all that opposed to biting the bullet with the current set of recommendations.

 

The longer you put off hard decisions the worse it will be.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I actually see the reverse. The tax cuts aren't going to rev up the economy. The high end cuts won't have much effect. They have some effect, but we pretend it's bigger than it is for political purposes. From an economic standpoint, the tax cuts on high earners are hardly what stands between us and prosperity. It'd be nice if they were, but they're not.

 

Most people who know have serious doubts that the economy is going to come revving back by 2012 - or 2014 for that matter. It's simple under too much weight to do that. We're stuck here. Plus, there are a handful of major potential shocks to the world economy that could pull it right back down at any point.

 

Pushing the tax cuts two years down the road helps Republicans because it will bring out this debate all over again, and just in time for the election. Republicans get to say "They wanted to raise your taxes in a recession, and we stopped them. Elect them again and they will."

 

As for the deficit panel, I'm for a lot of that too.