Who's the Best

[PackFanPerson]

I can see Asomugha, but I'd take Charles Woodson over Revis any day of the week. Revis is a very talented kid, but he's behaving like a whiney little bitch right now, and whiney little bitches don't help their teams win games.

[Vagitron]

I can see Asomugha, but I'd take Charles Woodson over Revis any day of the week. Revis is a very talented kid, but he's behaving like a whiney little bitch right now, and whiney little bitches don't help their teams win games.

 

 

You know I agree and disagree. If he's the best corner in the NFL and I think he is why shouldn't he be paid now when he's healthy rather than later when he may get hurt. If a owner can just say "Well you aren't helping us anymore, see you later" why can't a player demand "market value" for their services? Do hold outs suck? Absolutely but a NFL players shelf life can be changed in one game. If I'm the best at my position I'm going to want to be paid accordingly. However once again this list is about who is best at their position and Revis is certainly better than Woodson.

[PackFanPerson]

You know I agree and disagree. If he's the best corner in the NFL and I think he is why should he be paid now when he's healthy rather than later when he may get hurt. If a owner cut just say "Well you aren't helping us anymore, see you later" why can't a player demand "market value" for their services? Do hold outs suck? Absolutely but a NFL players shelf life can be changed in one game. If I'm the best at my position I'm going to want to be paid accordingly. However once again this list is about who is best at their position and Revis is certainly better than Woodson.

 

I respectfully disagree about Revis being better than Woodson because I'm a homer. LOL!

 

I understand and agree with your points concerning the possibility of short careers etc, but I certainly think some of the younger players listen to their agents a bit too much.

[Thaak]

We're talking CURRENT physical intangibles. Ray Lewis is a savvy veteran but he's no where near the same caliber athlete as Patrick Willis for example. In his prime absolutely but Lewis is no longer the best at his position. Greg Jennings also isn't the athlete that Fitz is....

 

You know, I got into an argument about this once before, with I think a Steelers fan. Kinda ironic I think.

 

How do I define "best player?" Well you obviously define it based on last years stats.

 

Lewis had 134 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles

Willis had 152 tackles, 4 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, and 3 interceptions.

 

Looking at the stats, Willis had a better year in 2009. However, Lewis has, year in, and year out, put up those kinds of numbers. When Willis has the kind of Career that Lewis has had, and can still do it at this high of a level in his 14th (arguably Lewis's 2nd best season to date) season, then come talk to me. Not only that, but Lewis is the field general on one of the perennially best defenses in the NFL. Willis is a really good ILB on what hasn't been that strong of a defense. Its like saying that DQJ's NFL leading tackles makes him a better ILB than Lewis.

 

And the "better athlete" or "measurable" argument is straight up silly. Ryan Leaf had prototypical measurables, and he sucked. Vick is the best athlete to play pro ball in a long long time, and he isn't that great at actually playing football. Sure, his athletics covers up for a lot of his lack of football savvy, moreso than most great athletes might be able to. But he's still just an athlete, not a good football player.

 

Bernie Kosar was a crap athlete, and for a few years in the late 80's, an exceptional QB and football player.

 

So how do you define best? I'm willing to let you argue for Willis, as he's a very good ILB. But to tell me I'm silly for arguing for Lewis, is, well silly.

 

By your argument, I could say that Moss shouldn't be on the list, yet you put him tentatively on yours.

 

The point being, that EVERYTHING factors into whether in any given year a football player will be good. There are literally hundreds of factors that figure into this. When a player can overcome all the factors and be good year in, and year out, then that is what defines greatness.

 

I'm not saying Jennings is there yet. I'm not saying that Jennings has had a better overall career that Fitzgerald.

 

But you don't get to have it both ways. You can't say that Lewis isn't in the running based on the past, but say Fitzgerald is.

 

I can say that Lewis is in, because I'm not saying it based on the past. I think the dude still has got "IT".

 

I think that Jennings will be the better WR in 2010, mostly due to circumstances. But that may mean the entire implosion of Fitzgerald's career, and the incredible blossoming of Jennings.

[Thaak]

What part of Homer pick didn't you read? Should I have overreacted with Thaak picking Lawrence Vickers or Alex Mack? HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! HOMER PICK! did you read it that time? I gave you 4 opportunities. However I'd rather have Big Ben than any of the QB's listed above. Peyton Manning finally won his super bowl but he was a choke artist up until that point. Tom Brady is a cry baby lady. We'll also see when the dust settles who stands where in the final rank order. Big Ben is a good bit younger than both and already has two Super Bowls. He's certainly a elite QB in this league. ONCE AGAIN HOMER PICK! that's 5 times.

 

If you don't think Vickers is at the very least in the argument for best FB in the game, then you are making a decision based off bias against the Browns. Yes, Alex Mack was my homer pick, because when it comes to non-skill players, I don't really pay that close attention to the names of the players in the entire league.

[bomber77]

I dont think there is currently a better blocking fullback in the game than Vickers. Id also put Joe Thomas and Cribbs on the team. Right now Brees and Brady are the best QB's in the game. I'll disagree with Manning though. No quarterback who is so excellent in the regular season is such a choker in the playoffs. This guy does it every year! The one year they won the superbowl he had terrible numbers in the playoffs. They won that one because of Dungy's defense. Every other year he either has a terrible game or heaves an interception in clutch moment.

 

Manning is simply not clutch. Not in the same playoff league with Montana, Elway, Brady, Staubach etc.

 

Ive also got Patrick Willis as the best MLB in the game right now. Vilma a close second.

[Browns57]

Not even worth arguing. You'd lose any self respecting football fan outside of Cleveland the second you mention Schaub, Romo or Rivers ahead of Ben. Romo is a serial choker, Rivers routinely does the same and Schaub's Texans for the first time made the playoffs this past season. Warner has won his super bowls but he's not half the athlete and he was outplayed in the Cards/Steelers Super Bowl. I could go all day with this but in the end I'd just be wasting my time. Big Ben will have several Super Bowls before he retires and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all. FIrst time in NFL history a player has been suspended without a conviction and even then the 4 games is pretty damn harsh. The Rooney's wanted him suspended and in the end I believe it will save his career. I hope you enjoy getting thrown all over.

 

 

Wow this is a first! I am agreeing with Homotron here and disagreeing with Zombo. I can't believe it!!!!

 

Romo does not belong in a list ahead of Ben. But I do agree with the rest of the list. Ben is a big time jerk! I mean like world class and has been for a long time. I live near Oxford and have heard it over and over again from people that he went to college with. BUT with the game on the line he just flat gets it done! PERIOD. I mean really we have all seen it first hand many times. I won't let my dislike for him cloud my judgement on this one.

[daddybull1]

What was Pac Man Jones convicted of?????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

T.Dawg

[Vagitron]

What was Pac Man Jones convicted of?????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

T.Dawg

 

Are you Retarded? Pac Man Jones was a damn nightmare off the field for 2 years. He was involved in several incidents that directly went against the leagues personal conduct policies and it didn't let up. He was in the news every other day and moved from multiple teams. I can't believe you even tried to compare the two. Pac Man Jones surrounded himself with a criminal element and participated on several occasions. I shouldn't have posed the first question because at this point it's obvious.

 

R. Dawg

[TheClevelandSound]

QB: Peyton Manning

 

RB: Adrian Peterson

 

FB: Lawrence Vickers

 

TE: Brent Celek

 

WR1: Andre Johnson

 

WR2: Randy Moss

 

LT: Joe Thomas

 

LG: Alan Faneca

 

C: Nick Mangold

 

RG: Robert Gallery

 

RT: D'Brickashaw Ferguson

 

DT/NG 1: Sean Rogers

 

DT/NG 2: Albert Haynesworth

 

DE1: Robert Mathis

 

DE2: Jared Allen

 

OLB1: Brian Cushing

 

OLB2: Elvis Dumervil

 

MLB1: Ray Lewis

 

MLB2: Patrick Willis

 

CB1: Darelle Revis

 

CB2: Champ Bailey

 

FS: Antoine Bethea

 

SS: Troy Polamalu

 

K: Phil Dawson/David Akers

 

P: Dave Zastudil (IR)

 

LS: Ryan Pontbriand

 

KR: Josh Cribbs

 

[Unsympathetic]

I can't believe the Madden site didn't rate Mack among the top 8 centers in the league. Hopefully that will change with Madden 12!

[miktoxic]

TOP 5 QUARTERBACKS NOW PLAYING:

 

1. phillip rivers toughest s.o.b. besides big ben (sorry guys)

2. drew brees

3. peyton manning (IS one of the biggest chokers college/nfl and horse face #2 next to elway) hit him and he's done

4. aaron rodgers

5. ben roethlisberger can't argue with the titles

[maddogg7888]

QB: Peyton Manning statistically (Personal favorite is Matt Schaub)

 

RB: Chris Johnson is fastest, Michael Turner is most powerful, AP is best all around

 

FB: Lawrence Vickers, best run blocking fullback in NFL easily

 

TE: Jason Witten

 

WR1: Andre Johnson

 

WR2: Wes Welker (Roddy White is very underrated)

 

LT: Joe Thomas

 

LG: Steve Huchinson

 

C: Nick Mangold

 

RG: Jahri Evans

 

RT: Jared Gaither

 

DT/NG 1: Kevin Williams

 

DT/NG 2: Kris Jenkins

 

DE1: Jared Allen

 

DE2: Trent Cole (one of the most underrated players in the NFL)

 

OLB1: Elvis Dumervil

 

OLB2: Lamar Woodley

 

MLB1: Patrick Willis (future hall of famer)

 

MLB2: Jon Beason

 

CB1: Charles Woodson (28 interceptions in the past 4 years, revis would need 14 int's this upcoming season to equal woodson over a 4 year stretch)

 

CB2: Champ Bailey (the best of the past 11 years)

 

FS: Ed Reed (If he is healthy)...eric berry will be the best in a couple of years

 

SS: Adrian Wilson

 

K: Stephen Gostkowski

 

P: Shane Lechler

 

LS: Ryan Pontbriand

 

KR: Josh Cribbs

[daddybull1]

You come on this board with the attitude that you know everything, that you're above everyone else...

 

However your statement that Gay Ben was the only athelete suspended without being convicted of a crime is freakin wrong...

 

Pac Man Jones was justifibly suspended BUT you freakin idiot, he was never convicted of a crime that warrented his suspension..... Arrested yes, convicted no.....................

 

I'm not supporting, defending or even saying anything positive about Pac Man, I'm just ONCE AGAIN showing that you're an ignorant homer who made a false statement once again defending your home town hero...... You're a joke.... Why dont you hook up Ben with your sister or mother???

 

T.Dawg

[Pumpkin Eater]

and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all.

 

 

Horse shit. If the Rooneys wanted him suspended then they could have done it themselves.

[The Gipper]

Rodgers so far has done nothing and McNabb? Why do people routinely put him in the top 5. What has he done lately? I would put Rodgers in the top 5 but McNabb certainly no longer belongs in that group.

 

OK, maybe so on McNabb. But just because he may be taken out doesn't mean BR gets put in. In fact that link I gave to Madden's analysis of the best put the following as the best QBs in the league:

Brees

P. Manning

Brady

Rodgers

Rivers

Favre

Romo

Schaub

 

So, maybe you better log on there and argue with John Madden.

[The Gipper]

Not even worth arguing. You'd lose any self respecting football fan outside of Cleveland the second you mention Schaub, Romo or Rivers ahead of Ben.

 

I repeat. John Madden had them all ahead of him. To my knowledge, Madden does not live in Cleveland.

 

 

Romo is a serial choker, Rivers routinely does the same and Schaub's Texans for the first time made the playoffs this past season. Warner has won his super bowls but he's not half the athlete and he was outplayed in the Cards/Steelers Super Bowl. I could go all day with this but in the end I'd just be wasting my time. Big Ben will have several Super Bowls before he retires

 

He will have the two that he has, and that's it. (

 

 

 

and the Rooneys had a hand in his suspension otherwise I don't believe he would have been suspended at all. FIrst time in NFL history a player has been suspended without a conviction and even then the 4 games is pretty damn harsh. The Rooney's wanted him suspended and in the end I believe it will save his career. I hope you enjoy getting thrown all over.

 

And what does any of this have to do with him as a QB? The question I posed had nothing to do with that.

 

[The Gipper]

We're talking CURRENT physical intangibles. Ray Lewis is a savvy veteran but he's no where near the same caliber athlete as Patrick Willis for example. In his prime absolutely but Lewis is no longer the best at his position. Greg Jennings also isn't the athlete that Fitz is....

 

I have not seen many 49er games since Willis has been there so I don't have much to go on, but what I have been reading says that indeed Willis is the bees knees of current middle linebackers in the NFL.

[The Gipper]

I can see Asomugha, but I'd take Charles Woodson over Revis any day of the week. Revis is a very talented kid, but he's behaving like a whiney little bitch right now, and whiney little bitches don't help their teams win games.

 

 

I would take Antoine Winfield over Charles Woodson any day of the week at cornerback.

[The Gipper]

If you don't think Vickers is at the very least in the argument for best FB in the game, then you are making a decision based off bias against the Browns. Yes, Alex Mack was my homer pick, because when it comes to non-skill players, I don't really pay that close attention to the names of the players in the entire league.

 

The Madden list had Lousak Polite, Tony Richardson, L. Weaver, and L. McClain ahead of Vickers as a fullback.

I guess perhaps I don't know my fullbacks all that well.....but, if these guys are all better than Vickers, then they must be some kind of beasts.

[CribbsWalker]

Related Topic:

 

http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15476

 

Regarding SCOUTS INC's list of the Top 200 best overall players in the NFL

 

(not to shamelessly promote my topic... but very relateable to this one)

[The Gipper]

You come on this board with the attitude that you know everything, that you're above everyone else...

 

However your statement that Gay Ben was the only athelete suspended without being convicted of a crime is freakin wrong...

 

Pac Man Jones was justifibly suspended BUT you freakin idiot, he was never convicted of a crime that warrented his suspension..... Arrested yes, convicted no.....................

 

I'm not supporting, defending or even saying anything positive about Pac Man, I'm just ONCE AGAIN showing that you're an ignorant homer who made a false statement once again defending your home town hero...... You're a joke.... Why dont you hook up Ben with your sister or mother???

 

I am not sure he would want to share him with his sister or mother.

 

But, I will say this: I would agree that I personally would rate BR higher than Romo or Schaub and disagree with Madden on that point.

[Thaak]

The Madden list had Lousak Polite, Tony Richardson, L. Weaver, and L. McClain ahead of Vickers as a fullback.

I guess perhaps I don't know my fullbacks all that well.....but, if these guys are all better than Vickers, then they must be some kind of beasts

.

 

 

I think a lot of these lists that exclude Browns in the top 1 or 2 are biased towards the lack of Browns offensive production (defensive stopitude) in the last several years.

 

I agree, if these guys are better than Vickers, then they are monsters. McClain might get a nod for me, because as a short yardage and pass catching full back, he is very good. Not sure how good he actually is as a blocker, but if Rice's production is any clue, he's pretty good.

[The Gipper]

I think a lot of these lists that exclude Browns in the top 1 or 2 are biased towards the lack of Browns offensive production (defensive stopitude) in the last several years.

 

I agree, if these guys are better than Vickers, then they are monsters. McClain might get a nod for me, because as a short yardage and pass catching full back, he is very good. Not sure how good he actually is as a blocker, but if Rice's production is any clue, he's pretty good.

 

 

Of course, I remember the days when the Fullback was actually THE running back for most NFL teams. Jim Brown was a fullback. Jim Taylor was a fullback. John Henry Johnson was a fullback. Cookie Gilchrist was a fullback. Matt Snell was a fullback. John Riggins was a fullback. Pete Johnson was a fullback. Bill Brown of the Vikings was a fullback. John Brockington was a fullback. Don Perkins of the Cowboys was a fullback. Sam "Bam" Cunningham was a fullback. Larry Csonka was a fullback. Earl Campbell was a fullback. And perhaps many more, and these, as I said, were the primary ground gainers for their teams. That, of course has changed. I don't think we really have the position of "Halfback" Now, what we really have is a Running back, and a Blocking back. The guys above would have been their teams "Running back", not their blocking back. Fair to say? Ernie Green was the blocking back for Jim Brown, even though he was smaller than JB. Most "Fullbacks" these days are going to be bigger, weight wise, than a team's "running back". Unless you have a Jerome Bettis or someone like that. Was Bettis considered a Fullback? or a Halfback?

[The Gipper]

A bit off the subject, obviously, but check this site out:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/412395-...history#page/26

[Vagitron]

TOP 5 QUARTERBACKS NOW PLAYING:

 

1. phillip rivers toughest s.o.b. besides big ben (sorry guys)

2. drew brees

3. peyton manning (IS one of the biggest chokers college/nfl and horse face #2 next to elway) hit him and he's done

4. aaron rodgers

5. ben roethlisberger can't argue with the titles

 

Rivers at 1? Based on what? He's a damn cry baby hot head as well and has done nothing in the playoffs.

[tampadawgs]

Look, I watch a lot of football, and know everybody has homor picks but to put Big Ben number really!!!!!

 

Its like me sayin MoMass is number 1 WR

 

Fact: Big Ben was on the first superbowl team that the defense won for yall, and the refs helped

 

Fact: Big Ben is a really good QB

 

Fact: Big Ben likes raping women

 

Fact: He fights with his teammates and they really dont like him...Hines Ward Anybody????

 

Brees, Manning hands down are better and if your talking this year and last year Rodgers no doubt, and Shaub.....

 

 

Dont get me wrong Big Ben is good, but not even close to the best

 

I would put Big Ben in front of Romo, Mcnabb, ELi Manning, but not Jake the Snake

[miktoxic]

Rivers at 1? Based on what? He's a damn cry baby hot head as well and has done nothing in the playoffs.

 

just my opinion dude. yeah he can be quite the whiner but i like the way he talks shit to the other team, almost daring them to take his head off (which one day they probably will). oooh. sad face.

 

[Vagitron]

just my opinion dude. yeah he can be quite the whiner but i like the way he talks shit to the other team, almost daring them to take his head off (which one day they probably will). oooh. sad face.

 

 

I certainly respect your opinion I just wanted a explanation. Rivers has never impressed me, especially with all that talent around him. Gates, LT in his prime during the early parts of his career. Vincent Jackson and a solid o-line. He was never able to really do anything with it. You then add in the fact that the dude has a legit attitude problem. (Yes I'm aware Ben is a womanizer) I just don't like the guy as a QB and while his arm is pretty accurate it's not terribly strong. I just can't find justification anywhere to even place the guy in the top 5 let alone the top spot. Toughest QB in the league is Ben outside of Brett Favre in his prime and now for that matter. Favre drives me nuts now but one thing you can never take away from the man is his desire to play the game and play through everything. Ben on the other hand is huge, hard to bring down and he comes like a freight train.

 

Either way you're entitled to your opinion. I just wanted some elaboration.

[jrb12711]

QB: Peyton Manning

 

RB: Chris Johnson, but watch out for ryan matthews in SD in the next few years

 

FB: Vickers is extremely solid, i'm not too into knowing many other FB's either TBH

 

TE: Dallas Clark, man just does it all.

 

WR1: Andre Johnson

 

WR2: Larry Fitz, easily

 

LT: Joe Thomas, not a homer pick just true

 

LG: Steve Huchinson

 

C: Nick Mangold

 

RG: Jahri Evans or Snee are both really solid

 

RT: Jared Gaither

 

DT/NG 1: Kevin Williams

 

DT/NG 2: Shaun Rogers when he plays to his ability

 

DE1: Jared Allen

 

DE2: Dwight Freeney/mario williams

 

OLB1: Demarcus Ware

 

OLB2: Lamar Woodley i guess

 

MLB1: Patrick Willis, dude is just a man child

 

MLB2: Jon Beason, living in charlotte I see this guy play a lot and he is just flat out amazing

 

CB1: I'll put Revis here even though i'm still not 100% sold on him

 

CB2: eh, charles woodson just because of how he's been for so long

 

FS: Ed Reed, even unhealthy that dude is just a playmaker

 

SS: Troy Polamalu, don't hate brownies that's just true

 

K: Rob Bironas

 

P: Shane Lechler, dude just bombs the ball

 

LS: Ryan Pontbriand

 

KR: Josh Cribbs, that's just as obvious as it gets for me