Lombardi: Haden struggled in camp

[shepwrite]

That’s your canned excuse Shep.

 

Discussion, at any time, is of course good. I’m no quibbling with that.

 

Its your modus operandi I have an issue with.

 

Well, I love my MO... so we disagree. Which is good. You probably prefer your own. Which is just human nature.

 

[samoth]

I don't get it. If I have a strong opinion that disagrees with your strong opinion, only one of us is "biased?"

 

That doesn't make any sense. I think you're saying that HAVING a strong opinion is biased?

 

If Joe Haden does something positive, like has a great preseason game or gets a great camp review, I won't be trying to spin it. I WANT him to be good. I'm no Lumbergh and never have been. I'd much rather win than be right.

 

But I don't by rote endorse every single thing the Browns. That sounds dull. And disagreement is good.

 

His opinion was wait and see. Yours is to immediately call it a bad pick because you don't like it.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if you can't see the flaw of knee jerk decisions then I feel for you. A lot of people hated the Alex Mack pick, but I bet they don't hate it so much now that he's already one of the better centers in the league. Give Haden a chance for God's sake -- he hasn't even played in any contact drills!!!

[shepwrite]

OK then, how about we agree just to wait and see how he does before jumping to conclusions.

Also: you will get a prize if you can identify the "Francis" reference

.

 

Strangely, I was afraid you were gonna ask that! It sounds really familiar. But I don't know.

 

I'm not drawing any conclusions. There's no way to shoot straight to conclusions with Haden for years. It's just debate and discussion. I figured him as a good corner and a first rounder. My opinion is and was that he wouldn't mean more to a team in today's NFL with today's rules than another one of the top corners, like Jackson or Wilson.

 

The fact that he isn't shining (I didn't say he's sucking, just that he isn't shining) makes me further believe that he isn't really a once-every-five-years corner who should go top 10.

 

But agreed: no conclusions. Doesn't make sense.

 

(Given Wright and Brown were in place, I would've gone Dez or the Earl Thomas, preferably in a slight trade down that gives us ammunition to trade up from 38 to get Wilson or McCourty.)

[shepwrite]

His opinion was wait and see. Yours is to immediately call it a bad pick because you don't like it.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if you can't see the flaw of knee jerk decisions then I feel for you. A lot of people hated the Alex Mack pick, but I bet they don't hate it so much now that he's already one of the better centers in the league. Give Haden a chance for God's sake -- he hasn't even played in any contact drills!!!

 

I appreciate your concern.

[shepwrite]

His opinion was wait and see. Yours is to immediately call it a bad pick because you don't like it.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if you can't see the flaw of knee jerk decisions then I feel for you. A lot of people hated the Alex Mack pick, but I bet they don't hate it so much now that he's already one of the better centers in the league. Give Haden a chance for God's sake -- he hasn't even played in any contact drills!!!

 

No. You're misstating it.

 

I don't like it because I think it's a bad pick. It's the opposite of what you said.

 

He's a good player and I think he'll be a good NFL corner. But I think it was a bad pick, a bad allocation of resources, a bad strategy. In order for it to be right (in my opinion), Haden has to be WAY better than Jackson, McCourty, and Wilson... and a rival to Revis for the top of the CB pile. Not as a rookie, but by year two.

 

[samoth]

No. You're misstating it.

 

I don't like it because I think it's a bad pick. It's the opposite of what you said.

 

He's a good player and I think he'll be a good NFL corner. But I think it was a bad pick, a bad allocation of resources, a bad strategy. In order for it to be right (in my opinion), Haden has to be WAY better than Jackson, McCourty, and Wilson... and a rival to Revis for the top of the CB pile. Not as a rookie, but by year two.

Ok, and he might. We don't know that. Obviously Heckert, Holmgren and Mangini (smart football people with decades of experience evaluating talent between them) thought more highly of Haden than any of the other CBs. Give the guy a shot. Our cornerbacks have sucked for 10 years. I would have been ok with them drafting DBs with every single pick this year.

[The Gipper]

Strangely, I was afraid you were gonna ask that! It sounds really familiar. But I don't know.

 

I'm not drawing any conclusions. There's no way to shoot straight to conclusions with Haden for years. It's just debate and discussion. I figured him as a good corner and a first rounder. My opinion is and was that he wouldn't mean more to a team in today's NFL with today's rules than another one of the top corners, like Jackson or Wilson.

 

The fact that he isn't shining (I didn't say he's sucking, just that he isn't shining) makes me further believe that he isn't really a once-every-five-years corner who should go top 10.

 

But agreed: no conclusions. Doesn't make sense.

 

(Given Wright and Brown were in place, I would've gone Dez or the Earl Thomas, preferably in a slight trade down that gives us ammunition to trade up from 38 to get Wilson or McCourty.)

 

 

So? How do we know that "Dez or Earl Thomas" are not also "failing to shine". Maybe Dez Bryant will be the next Charles Rogers and Earl Thomas the next...who knows...Brandon McDonald.

As for debate and discussion we could sit around and contemplate our navels. I am sure whether or not you have an inny or an outy would be a hot topic of discussion.

Also: No soup for you, eh? Here's a clue:

 

[Thaak]

I don't get it. If I have a strong opinion that disagrees with your strong opinion, only one of us is "biased?"

 

That doesn't make any sense. I think you're saying that HAVING a strong opinion is biased?

 

If Joe Haden does something positive, like has a great preseason game or gets a great camp review, I won't be trying to spin it. I WANT him to be good. I'm no Lumbergh and never have been. I'd much rather win than be right.

 

But I don't by rote endorse every single thing the Browns. That sounds dull. And disagreement is good.

 

That isn’t what I’m saying, and you know it Shep.

 

Also, the only strong opinion I have on the matter, is that I disagree on the way you present yours.

 

Discussion is fine. Strong opposing opinions are fine. Arguing the two disparate points is fine.

 

But using incredibly non-credible reports/articles and questionable inferences or analysis and using them to enforce your strong opinion is not fine.

 

[shepwrite]

That isn’t what I’m saying, and you know it Shep.

 

Also, the only strong opinion I have on the matter, is that I disagree on the way you present yours.

 

Discussion is fine. Strong opposing opinions are fine. Arguing the two disparate points is fine.

 

But using incredibly non-credible reports/articles and questionable inferences or analysis and using them to enforce your strong opinion is not fine.

 

Well, we clearly disagree on the ammunition for my opinion and its validity.

[shepwrite]

So? How do we know that "Dez or Earl Thomas" are not also "failing to shine". Maybe Dez Bryant will be the next Charles Rogers and Earl Thomas the next...who knows...Brandon McDonald.

As for debate and discussion we could sit around and contemplate our navels. I am sure whether or not you have an inny or an outy would be a hot topic of discussion.

Also: No soup for you, eh? Here's a clue:

 

 

Is it the sergeant dude from Full Metal Jacket? Or that actor in another role?

[Zombo]

Is it the sergeant dude from Full Metal Jacket? Or that actor in another role?

 

It's Sgt. Hulka from Stripes.

 

Zombo

[NW Ohio Brownie]

Sgt. Hulka from Stripes.

 

Anything deemed as definitive at this point regarding Haden is just wrong. We still have ten days until camp, and fourteen more after that until the first preseason game.

 

Entering anything into the debate right now is pointless, quite frankly.

 

Shep, you're on record as saying you don't like the Haden pick. That opinion is valid. It is NOT further validated by Mike Lombardi.

 

For everyone on the other side of the argument, myself included, we have a valid opinion to wait and see. David Bowens's comments don't further validate our opinion either.

 

Haden's play will tell the tale. Period.

 

 

[Thaak]

Well, we clearly disagree on the ammunition for my opinion and its validity.

 

 

Your ammunition is clearly a recognized crap reporter who has a grudge against the Browns and Mangini and your own inferences from an OBR report that was at best vague.

 

Further that by the fact that Mangini remains quite vague about all his players. As a matter of fact, you even said he was gushing about Montario. He wasn't. His comments about Montario were more optimistic at about the level that Pumpernickle is tastier than Rye bread.

[shepwrite]

Your ammunition is clearly a recognized crap reporter who has a grudge against the Browns and Mangini and your own inferences from an OBR report that was at best vague.

 

Further that by the fact that Mangini remains quite vague about all his players. As a matter of fact, you even said he was gushing about Montario. He wasn't. His comments about Montario were more optimistic at about the level that Pumpernickle is tastier than Rye bread.

 

Dude, now you're spinning like a top. Mangini has loved on Hardesty like a new puppy. He's given mad props to Robiskie. He's bragged on Assante and Lauvao.

 

He was lukewarm on Haden. Let's be honest. If Haden were ripping it up, we would have read about it SOMEWHERE, as someone on the other board put it weeks ago. He's been way beneath the radar for a 7th overall pick. Hell, we've read more about Brandon McDonald's improvement than we have about Haden!

 

No, that's not the last word or definitive or final or anything close. It's just where we are right now.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Dude, now you're spinning like a top. Mangini has loved on Hardesty like a new puppy. He's given mad props to Robiskie. He's bragged on Assante and Lauvao.

 

He was lukewarm on Haden. Let's be honest. If Haden were ripping it up, we would have read about it SOMEWHERE, as someone on the other board put it weeks ago. He's been way beneath the radar for a 7th overall pick. Hell, we've read more about Brandon McDonald's improvement than we have about Haden!

 

No, that's not the last word or definitive or final or anything close. It's just where we are right now.

 

Agreed. I haven't seen any negatives on Hardesty. I think Thaak be tripping on some barfing hard bs.

 

[NewEraDawg]

Hell.......he ain't even signed yet . lol

[Thaak]

Agreed. I haven't seen any negatives on Hardesty. I think Thaak be tripping on some barfing hard bs.

 

I didn't say there were any negatives in any way, shape or form. I said that Mangini doesn't make a habit out of "gushing" over anyone, especially a rookie.

[NW Ohio Brownie]

I don't think too many coaches will brag about their #1 picks in mini-camp anyway. Something called contract negotiations gives me that feeling.

 

Shep, I hadn't seen any good words about Lauvao from Mangini. That's encouraging if true. If he works out then we have 3/5 of a long-term offensive line. That's pretty special.

 

There's no doubt Mangini has praised Hardesty to this point (2nd rounders usually sign before camp). He is going to be a stud behind this line.

[samoth]

Dude, now you're spinning like a top. Mangini has loved on Hardesty like a new puppy. He's given mad props to Robiskie. He's bragged on Assante and Lauvao.

 

He was lukewarm on Haden. Let's be honest. If Haden were ripping it up, we would have read about it SOMEWHERE, as someone on the other board put it weeks ago. He's been way beneath the radar for a 7th overall pick. Hell, we've read more about Brandon McDonald's improvement than we have about Haden!

 

No, that's not the last word or definitive or final or anything close. It's just where we are right now.

 

What is there to "rip up"? All we've had is minicamp, with no-contact drills and no knowledge of the playbook.

 

You hear good things about Hardesty and Robiskie because they're making runs and catches with no resistance. CB isn't as sexy a position to report on.

[shepwrite]

I don't think too many coaches will brag about their #1 picks in mini-camp anyway. Something called contract negotiations gives me that feeling.

 

Shep, I hadn't seen any good words about Lauvao from Mangini. That's encouraging if true. If he works out then we have 3/5 of a long-term offensive line. That's pretty special.

 

There's no doubt Mangini has praised Hardesty to this point (2nd rounders usually sign before camp). He is going to be a stud behind this line.

 

He did. Said his footwork and quickness were even better than expected, and he's a very quick learner.

 

Extra cool, because his strength... is his strength. Imagine when the pads are on.

[shepwrite]

What is there to "rip up"? All we've had is minicamp, with no-contact drills and no knowledge of the playbook.

 

You hear good things about Hardesty and Robiskie because they're making runs and catches with no resistance. CB isn't as sexy a position to report on.

 

Cover guys cover. The Texans' coach praised Kareem Jackson for holding his own against Andre Johnson day after day, said he looked the part. He's already the starter.

 

We've had LOTS of shorts-and-tees practices between OTAs and mini-camps... and the corners are covering the WRs every day. They've had a lot to look at.

[SJ_Browns]

Discussion is fine. Strong opposing opinions are fine. Arguing the two disparate points is fine.

 

But using incredibly non-credible reports/articles and questionable inferences or analysis and using them to enforce your strong opinion is not fine.

 

bingo! it's funny how this negative lombardi report on haden comes out RIGHT BEFORE the rookies have to report to tc in cleveland. controversy sells, doesn't it? some people are willing to believe anything though.

 

i haven't heard anything negative about haden from the media that actually watched him in the otas. the right thing to do is to give haden a fair chance and wait and see what he can do. it's better than listening to someone who has a bogus story and a need to spark controversy to drum up viewers to their articles.

[shepwrite]

Hey, Lombardi's one paragraph sparked a super hot thread in a very dead time.

 

We owe him large.

[SJ_Browns]

Hey, Lombardi's one paragraph sparked a super hot thread in a very dead time.

 

We owe him large.

 

WE don't owe him nothing and i only posted in this thread a couple of times. the main reason this thread went on so long is because you can't admit your true agenda here. you were hell bent to try and prove everyone wrong about the haden pick and lombardi's article was your "ammunition". you had nothing credible to back up your claims and you know it.

[Paxton]

Cover guys cover. The Texans' coach praised Kareem Jackson for holding his own against Andre Johnson day after day, said he looked the part. He's already the starter.

 

We've had LOTS of shorts-and-tees practices between OTAs and mini-camps... and the corners are covering the WRs every day. They've had a lot to look at.

Funny how we get arguments here based on a week a mini-camp, not the strengths and weaknesses these guys showed in actual games.

 

I guess that would be too inconvenient.

[ATENEARS]

I hope Haden is the 3rd or 4th corner coming out of camp, that means that Wright & Brown are freaking beast and we have damn good depth. If he beats out Wright & Brown today in mini-camps, that's not saying much of the state of the Cleveland Browns.

 

It's all good, the kid is gonna lead the preseason in picks from the nickle, and we are gonna scare the piss out of teams with a three headed monster that can stay fresh all game long. Get that weak stuff outta here, Pittsburgh!

[samoth]

Cover guys cover. The Texans' coach praised Kareem Jackson for holding his own against Andre Johnson day after day, said he looked the part. He's already the starter.

 

We've had LOTS of shorts-and-tees practices between OTAs and mini-camps... and the corners are covering the WRs every day. They've had a lot to look at.

 

You realize the Texans just lost their starting CB, Dunta Robinson, and had to replace him, right? It's not like they have strong depth at that position. Guess what, we do. Wright and Brown should start and if Haden started from day 1 in front of either of them I would be very worried about our skill level at the position. Rookies usually don't start in front of vets, but I guess you are conveniently ignoring that.

[Thaak]

You realize the Texans just lost their starting CB, Dunta Robinson, and had to replace him, right? It's not like they have strong depth at that position. Guess what, we do. Wright and Brown should start and if Haden started from day 1 in front of either of them I would be very worried about our skill level at the position. Rookies usually don't start in front of vets, but I guess you are conveniently ignoring that.

 

Thank you for saying that. I was meaning to say something similar but kept distracting myself.

[shepwrite]

You realize the Texans just lost their starting CB, Dunta Robinson, and had to replace him, right? It's not like they have strong depth at that position. Guess what, we do. Wright and Brown should start and if Haden started from day 1 in front of either of them I would be very worried about our skill level at the position. Rookies usually don't start in front of vets, but I guess you are conveniently ignoring that.

 

Exactly. That's why we didn't need to make Haden the first Top 10 corner since 2005.

 

The Texans had an actual need and filled it really well with a pick in the 20s.

[shepwrite]

WE don't owe him nothing and i only posted in this thread a couple of times. the main reason this thread went on so long is because you can't admit your true agenda here. you were hell bent to try and prove everyone wrong about the haden pick and lombardi's article was your "ammunition". you had nothing credible to back up your claims and you know it.

 

You kind of made my point. It's a very active debate... and a good one. Lombardi was just the jumping off point. Hell, OBR's cover story was about "Haden's Issues." We're ALL looking for things to dissect and discuss.

 

Some hated the pick, some didn't. That's always worth revisiting!