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McCoy: Let's Just Get This Out There (!)

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Holmgren was quoted as saying the McCoy you'll see in 14-16 months will be a very different quarterback. Interesting.

 

 

Yo Shep, where did you get that quote ?

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I think McCoy is a fine player who has this season to figure out the NFL game and develop into an NFL QB. Can he be a starter in this league? I am not sure we know he can be a QB in this league. I like to think he can play, but start? Who knows. We don't know if Sanchez, Stafford or even Ryan can do it longterm. Alex Smith is another guy time is running out on. It takes a while to figure out this game, and making adjustments once someone figures out your game. I think that is really when you can call yourself in NFL starter longterm in this league. Once you can make that 2nd level adjustments once teams have stopped what you're really good at, what you're really comfortable with. Getting McCoy ready to start in this league (if that ever happens) is merely the first step. What happens when things are "taken away" by DC's? How do you adjust to all of that?

 

Arm strength? Revolutions of the football? Throwing lasers? Ppffttt. Overrated. Good to have in your tool box, but overrated. Many, many kids in this league can throw absolute darts but they just can't make it accurate, and they can't make the correct reads.

 

McCoy has a long way to go. And this is good, because now the coaches can instruct and teach and see what he absorbs, then see how he applies it. But a long term starter in the NFL? Man that is so hard to say. But we have time.

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My money is on McCoy, too.

 

Clausen has to learn two things that he did not learn at ND and are not in his new play book -- how to be a winner and how to be a leader.

 

You may not like the Texas offense, but it -- and Mack Brown -- does teach qb's to be winners and leaders. McCoy has both traits in spades.

 

Lining up under center in a pro formation doesn't make a pro quarterback. It just proves you know where the center is.

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Yo Shep, where did you get that quote ?

 

Someone on the other board (Riff?) has an in, and Holmgren said it in front of several media types. Whoever it was double-dog swore on it.

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Smith was in the same boat as Young, McCoy, and Saint Tim: All played in offenses that did almost nothing to prepare them for the NFL. Bill Walsh said exactly that about Young, that very little that he did or was asked to do at Texas would translate to the NFL.

 

The good thing about Smith is that he was all of 20 when he was drafted so he's only 25 now. He's about the age of most QBs entering their 2nd or 3rd season, and he's coming off something of a breakout year. Now he has the same OC for a 2nd year for the first time in his career, the shoulder has healed, and he has nice weapons.

 

If I were looking for a guy to really jump up the charts, I'd watch Smith. The pieces are all in place. If he fails, it's all on him.

 

There's a lot to like about McCoy. He's a very hard worker, he's more than smart enough, he's a good kid, he's a terrific athlete who can get the ball out accurately even when his feet aren't optimally set (unlike Quinn), and he has some "it" factor. The latter goes for Clausen, too, who set a ND record for comeback wins. They both can rally a team.

 

The negatives: A very light arm for the next level, less than optimal size, and starting almost from ground zero on running and NFL offense and getting through progressions.

 

We'll see. I'm dubious and intrigued at the same time.

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Mack Brown has stated before that McCoy had to make audibles,and did go through progressions as he looked over the defense and stood in the pocket.He's stated that he felt this would help him at the next level.

 

I guess my question is how much of this is Brown propping up his QB before the NFL draft,and how much of this is the truth?

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Mack Brown has stated before that McCoy had to make audibles,and did go through progressions as he looked over the defense and stood in the pocket.He's stated that he felt this would help him at the next level.

 

I guess my question is how much of this is Brown propping up his QB before the NFL draft,and how much of this is the truth?

 

When Alo's around, he can drop in and comment on McCoy's problems with working through progressions better than I can. He's said that when Shipley was covered (usually the #1), McCoy did not do well. Some draftnick/expert types wrote about it.

 

Usually, Texas has a #1, a dump off (Dave Thomas for VY)... and then take off. That's it.

 

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As Earl34 and others here can attest, I wasn't very high on McCoy during the draft process. I believe I talked about him being a 3rd round talent, so the value was just about right.

 

On the one hand, it's understandable why McCoy struggled when Shipley was shut down, given that his other targets were very unreliable. That said, he tended to lock on to Shipley a little too much; when Gruden had his ESPN special with all the QB prospects, he picked out a play on which McCoy missed an open receiver because he'd locked on his roommate.

 

However, McCoy's a smart guy & a hard worker, and he'll have plenty of time to pick up an NFL offense. And it definitely helps that we have a QB guru in charge of the organization.

 

And if the Browns transition to a WCO, McCoy has the potential to be a very good QB. Jeff Garcia's one comparison; Rich Gannon's another one.

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Smith was in the same boat as Young, McCoy, and Saint Tim: All played in offenses that did almost nothing to prepare them for the NFL. Bill Walsh said exactly that about Young, that very little that he did or was asked to do at Texas would translate to the NFL.

 

The good thing about Smith is that he was all of 20 when he was drafted so he's only 25 now. He's about the age of most QBs entering their 2nd or 3rd season, and he's coming off something of a breakout year. Now he has the same OC for a 2nd year for the first time in his career, the shoulder has healed, and he has nice weapons.

 

If I were looking for a guy to really jump up the charts, I'd watch Smith. The pieces are all in place. If he fails, it's all on him.

 

There's a lot to like about McCoy. He's a very hard worker, he's more than smart enough, he's a good kid, he's a terrific athlete who can get the ball out accurately even when his feet aren't optimally set (unlike Quinn), and he has some "it" factor. The latter goes for Clausen, too, who set a ND record for comeback wins. They both can rally a team.

 

The negatives: A very light arm for the next level, less than optimal size, and starting almost from ground zero on running and NFL offense and getting through progressions.

 

We'll see. I'm dubious and intrigued at the same time.

 

I am younger than you but to me this description of McCoy sounds to me a little like what they used to say about that skinny guy with a not so strong arm, who was smart and a leader and who came from Notre Dame. Oh yeah I remember now, his name was Joe Montana!

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I was not a huge Colt McCoy fan going into the draft. I thought the Browns should take Clausen. When they passed on him at 38, I literally crapped myself and threw up at the same time.

 

I live in Westlake Village, like Clausen did. He's known to NOT be a dick. My son worked out with him, Spiller, Everson Griffin, Mays, and the rest of "The Freaks" before the Combine. Clausen was really, really nice to the other guys, acting like a host... and was nice to Jack, too. People here are stunned at this perception that he's some huge tool. It's a lie. Some of the upperclassmen at ND didn't like him. That part is true... but it says as much about them as about him.

 

Clausen comes from a pro style offense, unlike McCoy. He has more arm. He's asked to do WAY more things that translate to the next level. He had to work on a team with no running game and less than no defense, but somehow he ranked 5th in the nation in passing and the Domers were 3rd in pass offense. That's really hard when everybody knows you can only do one thing.

 

As Bret Sobleski at Scout.com said after watching tape on both: Clausen had to make way tougher throws and put the ball in way smaller spaces. He also called McCoy's arm "subpar." Not average. Not decent. Subpar.

 

Right now, today, Colt McCoy would be one of a few people in the league with a 5 arm on that 4-8 scale. Maybe Pennington and Edwards have as little. That's it. No clear-cut starters have as little or less arm than Colt McCoy. The offense he played in is the same one that didn't prepare Young for the NFL. It might be the WORST training ground for NFL quarterbacking in the league. It's a #1, checkdown, run dictate for the quarterback. And even at that, McCoy has questions about his ability to move through his progressions. When Shipley was covered, McCoy's passer rating was toilet water.

 

I did NOT like the pick. When that ESPN guy Michael David Smith or whatever said the Browns would NOT pick a quarterback, I was pleased. Why? Because it meant we were feathering the nest for Locker, Ponder, or Luck.

 

Now? I don't know. Sure, McCoy looks like a good value at 85. Sure he's easy to dump. Sure, his arm HAS improved year to year and looked even better at his workout, so he could pull a Brees. But what if we don't really know what we have when April rolls around? Will it be like Charlie Frye, a third round guy who's kinda-sorta treated like a first round guy as far as long-term plans? How will we know what we have when he's not going to play and so far he's not even allowed to practice much?

 

What do you do if McCoy is still a mystery and you could trade up to get Ponder at #7? Pull a Jets kind of move?

 

That's my issue. I'm actually a little intrigued by McCoy because Holmgren is clearly intrigued by McCoy (unlike everybody else in the Browns draft room). We have to know that third round draft picks do NOT become starters for their original team. In fact, for the most part, nobody drafted after about 33 becomes a starter for his original team... at least for very long. Only Brady and Romo sit as the exceptions to the rule right now. We'll see about Henne and Kolb, a couple second rounders.

 

All the other starters are first round picks (probably 19 of them next year) or guys on second or even third teams (Schaub, Hasselbeck, Favre, Brees, etc.). It's just crazy rare to draft a guy later than round one and then start him for 10 years.

 

But, all that said... stuff happens. But some of it needs to happen this year, in full view of Holmgren, or we need to get our franchise QB next year.

 

 

Great post Shep! We have different criteria of what makes a franchise QB.....to me McCoy is a real candidate. He got better every year and he won nearly all of his big games. Those are my most important measurement stats. Claussen to me lead ND to mediocre. Mediocre at college usually resutls in more mediocre. I am happy we got McCoy and I truly believe he can be the guy. OF course anyone who knows anything about me............QB is way more important than any position..........and I hope we finaly got one

 

Welcome back my man and lets debate on all issues ...................too cool

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It's SO nice to debate and disagree with respect... and nobody feeling a need to lose the plot and go off on the other guy. Very nice.

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It's SO nice to debate and disagree with respect... and nobody feeling a need to lose the plot and go off on the other guy. Very nice.

 

I agree. But lets not make it a habit to repost this particular viewpoint every other day. Then it just becomes irritating.

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I agree. But lets not make it a habit to repost this particular viewpoint every other day. Then it just becomes irritating.

 

Just wanted to add that it's really nice to post an opinion and not....

 

Kidding. Happy Holiday Weekend to all.

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Great post Shep! We have different criteria of what makes a franchise QB.....to me McCoy is a real candidate. He got better every year and he won nearly all of his big games. Those are my most important measurement stats. Claussen to me lead ND to mediocre. Mediocre at college usually resutls in more mediocre. I am happy we got McCoy and I truly believe he can be the guy. OF course anyone who knows anything about me............QB is way more important than any position..........and I hope we finaly got one

 

Welcome back my man and lets debate on all issues ...................too cool

 

Winning in college doesn't mean much. Tee Martin won the national championship the year after Manning went to the Colts, for instance. Who quarterbacked the OSU national champions? Where's the Gator QB who won it all under Spurrier... or the one who won it OVER the Buckeyes? What about the Oklahoma national champion QB?

 

See? I don't even know their names!

 

Favre never won shit. Manning couldn't win the big one. Brees never won anything. Rivers never won anything. Rodgers never won anything. Brady never won anything. It just doesn't matter.

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Winning in college doesn't mean much. Tee Martin won the national championship the year after Manning went to the Colts, for instance. Who quarterbacked the OSU national champions? Where's the Gator QB who won it all under Spurrier... or the one who won it OVER the Buckeyes? What about the Oklahoma national champion QB?

 

See? I don't even know their names!

 

Favre never won shit. Manning couldn't win the big one. Brees never won anything. Rivers never won anything. Rodgers never won anything. Brady never won anything. It just doesn't matter.

 

Yeah... I don't agree with you, at all. I forget who it was who put it out there... but a couple of the top talent evaluators (may have been Parcells) said that there are 5 criteria for him to even think about drafting a QB.

 

I believe that he said the QB had to be a winner in college. That doesn't necessarily mean winning the big game. It means, overall, a winner.

 

When a sports reporter looked at the stats of all the great QB's who've won in the NFL, and compared them to the 5 criteria, all but like 2 didn't fit the "wins in college" one. Yes, Peyton Manning was considered a winner in college, even though he didn't win the big game.

 

Now I agree, winning in college isn't everything. You still have to have the tools to be successful in the NFL.

 

Part of the problem I see in NFL talent evaluators, isn't that they can't evaluate talent, or that they don't know what they are doing, but rather that they find a great player, and draft them, and expect them to change to fit into the system they drafted them into.

 

It isn't about learning a new system when they have the tools that could work in that system.

 

Its about drafting them to be a different player than what made them successful at the college level.

 

That happens way too often in the NFL, and I don't understand why. I really like Sean Paytons philosophy when the Saints brought in Brees. He asked Brees to help write some of his playbook by telling him what plays he liked best, and what ones worked best for him. Then he asked him what plays he hated, and he wrote them outta the playbook.

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I just see way too much evidence to the contrary, Thaak... and I'm not that huge of a Parcells fan because he isn't known for the care and feeding of QBs like Walsh, and I think that's the single biggest key to winning in this league.

 

Clausen would get a "winner" tag, I think, because the passing game is literally all that ND team had (no D, no running game). And he led a team record four fourth-quarter comebacks.

 

I don't think McCoy was a passenger, but neither was the other Colt (Brennan)... and he isn't doing shit in the NFL. I don't think Dorsey or Wuerffel or Walsh were passengers, either... but that didn't make them great pros.

 

I'm trying to think of a great NFL quarterback who won everything in college... and I'm not coming up with any. If the best right now are Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Favre, and Schaub... did any of those guys win anything big n college?

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Also, I think Payton is a QB lover and he did exactly the right think in insisting on Brees over Culpepper and then giving Brees the keys to the kingdom. That's how important a QB SHOULD be to your team, like Manning is in Indy. The position is so clearly the most important in team sports, it's about equal to four great starting pitchers.

 

I look at a few things in about this order:

 

1. Is he a good passer? And by that, I mean, is he consistently accurate? Does he throw a consistent spiral? Does he have a natural motion and a quick release? Does he have enough arm to make all the throws? This is actually where I question McCoy... a lot.

 

2. Is he SMART? Not just spatial on-field reactions, but BOOK SMART? Playbooks are complex and huge these days. Starting QBs have higher Wonderlics than non starters, playoff QBs have higher scores than non-playoff QBs, and Super Bowl QBs have the highest of all. That's the league we watch now. Dumbass QBs need not apply anymore.

 

3. Is he coming from a pro style offense? It isn't absolutely necessary (Bradford)... but the transition is real.

 

4. Does he have reasonable size? Over 6'0" and 210?

 

5. Finally, is he athletic enough? This is low because the paradigm for NFL QBs is Manning/Brady/Brees... and none are runners. They're the gold standard. Mike Vick and Vince Young are not.

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I just see way too much evidence to the contrary, Thaak... and I'm not that huge of a Parcells fan because he isn't known for the care and feeding of QBs like Walsh, and I think that's the single biggest key to winning in this league.

 

Clausen would get a "winner" tag, I think, because the passing game is literally all that ND team had (no D, no running game). And he led a team record four fourth-quarter comebacks.

 

I don't think McCoy was a passenger, but neither was the other Colt (Brennan)... and he isn't doing shit in the NFL. I don't think Dorsey or Wuerffel or Walsh were passengers, either... but that didn't make them great pros.

 

I'm trying to think of a great NFL quarterback who won everything in college... and I'm not coming up with any. If the best right now are Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Favre, and Schaub... did any of those guys win anything big n college?

 

I'm not saying that every winning QB in college translates to the pros. And you know that's not what I'm saying, so stop it!

 

What I'm saying is, that almost every successful QB in the pros was a winner in college.

 

Clausen cannot be considered a winner despite his stats and 4th quarter come backs. Why? Because his team didn't win. Part of the criteria regards the idea of knowing how it feels to win, or knowing how to lose. When you lose enough times, it starts to become ok to lose.

 

Now before you jump on this, I'm not saying that Clausen is ok with losing. I'm saying that's part of the criteria that Parcells put together.

 

And before you comment further here, let me say, Parcells has had some very good success in the NFL. So if he shares his criteria in talent evaluation, you have to at least listen to it with respectful interest.

 

We aren't that far off on our idea on what makes an good QB Shep. But please, don't just discount my ideas because they run contrary to yours.

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I'd be ecstatic if McCoy turned out as good as Jeff Garcia. Jeff started for over a decade in the league and took several teams to the playoffs.

 

Once again shep is posting just to post. How many times do we need to hear about how Clausen is obviously better than McCoy, even though neither has played a down in the NFL and both quite possibly won't at all this year.

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I'm not saying that every winning QB in college translates to the pros. And you know that's not what I'm saying, so stop it!

 

What I'm saying is, that almost every successful QB in the pros was a winner in college.

 

Clausen cannot be considered a winner despite his stats and 4th quarter come backs. Why? Because his team didn't win. Part of the criteria regards the idea of knowing how it feels to win, or knowing how to lose. When you lose enough times, it starts to become ok to lose.

 

Now before you jump on this, I'm not saying that Clausen is ok with losing. I'm saying that's part of the criteria that Parcells put together.

 

And before you comment further here, let me say, Parcells has had some very good success in the NFL. So if he shares his criteria in talent evaluation, you have to at least listen to it with respectful interest.

 

We aren't that far off on our idea on what makes an good QB Shep. But please, don't just discount my ideas because they run contrary to yours.

 

I'm not discounting them... and I actually know a lot of people who agree with you... I just see it differently. It's an interesting topic and I saw Jamie Dukes and Charles Whatsisname on NFLN having a snappy debate on it.

 

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I'd be ecstatic if McCoy turned out as good as Jeff Garcia. Jeff started for over a decade in the league and took several teams to the playoffs.

 

Once again shep is posting just to post. How many times do we need to hear about how Clausen is obviously better than McCoy, even though neither has played a down in the NFL and both quite possibly won't at all this year.

 

Huh? What does that mean, "Posting just to post?" I believe it was Ate who said he was looking forward to debating/discussing McCoy with me. Are you saying something real or did you just wanna take a little shot? It's fine either way, I guess.

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Winning in college doesn't mean much. Tee Martin won the national championship the year after Manning went to the Colts, for instance. Who quarterbacked the OSU national champions? Where's the Gator QB who won it all under Spurrier... or the one who won it OVER the Buckeyes? What about the Oklahoma national champion QB?

 

See? I don't even know their names!

 

Favre never won shit. Manning couldn't win the big one. Brees never won anything. Rivers never won anything. Rodgers never won anything. Brady never won anything. It just doesn't matter.

 

 

Yes, you make a very valid point. Having success in college, leading a team to a national championship does not really mean diddly when it comes to NFL success. Some of the names you couldn't come up with: Craig Krenzel of OSU, Chris Leak of Fla., Danny Weurfell of Fla., Jason White of OK.....all had little if anything of an NFL career. (might Tebow join this list?). We could probably come up with quite a few more names. But, that doesn't mean that because you have led your team to a national title, or national title game that you won't be any good. I am sure if we looked hard enough we would find some success stories amongst national title contending QBs who have done well in the NFL..

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No doubt. good NFLers come from all types of programs.

 

 

I will say thing about winning....all other things being equal, the player who won probably does get a bump in the ratings. While it may not mean all that much, it means more than nothing.

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Yeah, it's a gray area and I think you have to take it case by case. If two quarterbacks with NFL skills play on contending teams, I'd certainly look at the QB who caused wins (as opposed to taking snaps on a team that won, which happens in college but not in the pros).

 

There are a lot of "passenger" QBs on good college teams, is what I'm saying.

 

To wear out my Clausen fetish: The Irish were ranked like 87th in defense and 85th in rushing... but still managed to have one of the best pass offenses in the entire nation. That's tough, given that everybody knows what you're gonna do. On top of that, Clausen only threw 4 picks against 28 TDs, so I don't think he blew too many games. He also set a record for comeback wins.

 

So my point on Clausen: If you're looking for reasons for their 6-6 record, you don't look at anybody involved with the passing game (Clausen, Tate, Floyd, the TE, etc.). It's like blaming Marino or Fouts for their teams not winning the Super Bowl.

 

I believe Favre's team went 5-6 his senior year. Obviously Cutler's team wasn't good. Schaub's Virginia team was so-so. Again... I can't think of any national championship QBs tearing up the league right now. Leinart gets his shot in 2010.

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Yeah, it's a gray area and I think you have to take it case by case. If two quarterbacks with NFL skills play on contending teams, I'd certainly look at the QB who caused wins (as opposed to taking snaps on a team that won, which happens in college but not in the pros).

 

There are a lot of "passenger" QBs on good college teams, is what I'm saying.

 

To wear out my Clausen fetish: The Irish were ranked like 87th in defense and 85th in rushing... but still managed to have one of the best pass offenses in the entire nation. That's tough, given that everybody knows what you're gonna do. On top of that, Clausen only threw 4 picks against 28 TDs, so I don't think he blew too many games. He also set a record for comeback wins.

 

So my point on Clausen: If you're looking for reasons for their 6-6 record, you don't look at anybody involved with the passing game (Clausen, Tate, Floyd, the TE, etc.). It's like blaming Marino or Fouts for their teams not winning the Super Bowl.

 

I believe Favre's team went 5-6 his senior year. Obviously Cutler's team wasn't good. Schaub's Virginia team was so-so. Again... I can't think of any national championship QBs tearing up the league right now. Leinart gets his shot in 2010.

 

The winning criteria has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Nothing. And for the record, the other 4 criteria wouldn't allow a "passenger" QB to be drafted anyways. The winning criteria has everything, and only, to do with the QB "knowing" what it feels like to be a winner and being a leader of that "winning."

 

Vince Young looked decent for awhile, then fell apart, then last year looked decent. He won a national championship in 2006. The jury is still out I suppose, but it is likely that he will prove to be a good (maybe not great) starter in the NFL.

 

Smith also could have played for a national championship (he's been crap for awhile, but things are looking up for him) if it weren't for the BCS stupidity.

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But that's exactly my point, Andy: Smith and Young are not tearing up the NFL, although in a protected offense, Young did play better last year. Big winners in college... but not great quarterback prospects.

 

I'd say the water gets really murky when you try to credit college quarterbacks with wins and losses, because the levels of play AND playing styles are so wildly different. Not so in the NFL, where replacing Delhomme with Manning on the Panthers last year probably makes them a contender. QB is a much clearer X factor at the NFL level.

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But that's exactly my point, Andy: Smith and Young are not tearing up the NFL, although in a protected offense, Young did play better last year. Big winners in college... but not great quarterback prospects.

 

I'd say the water gets really murky when you try to credit college quarterbacks with wins and losses, because the levels of play AND playing styles are so wildly different. Not so in the NFL, where replacing Delhomme with Manning on the Panthers last year probably makes them a contender. QB is a much clearer X factor at the NFL level.

 

Again, you have completely missed the point. It isn't about the QB skills when considering wins and losses. It isn't about attributing those wins and losses to the QB.

 

It is about coming from an winning organization.

 

Secondly, while Young and Smith aren't "tearing up the NFL" being starters in the league are a lot different than not being in the league at all (Krenzel and Leak).

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Here is a list of QBs who have either won the BCS title game or have lost the BCS title game. It may no be perfectly complete, but it does give some names to go with what is being said here:

 

Tee Martin

Chris Weinke

Jason White

Troy Smith

Vince Young

Tim Tebow

Matt Flynn

John David Booty

Craig Krenzel

Ken Dorsey

Chris Leak

Scott Frost

Sam Bradford

Todd Boeckman

Matt Leinert

 

 

Now, name the superstar NFL QB off this list. The closest at this point is probably Vince Young, but he has only had a good rookie season, a couple of very bumpy seasons in between, then a good year last year. But, I am not sure I, nor anyone else is prepared to declare him an NFL superstar.

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Compare the above list for those QBs who are, say, considered the Top 15 in the NFL. Here is one possible Top 15 NFL QB list. How close did any of these come to winning a title in college:

 

P. Manning

Brady

Brees

Ben Roethlisberger

Favre

Rivers

A. Rodgers

E. Manning

C. Palmer

McNabb

Romo

Schaub

Matt Ryan

Joe Flacco

? Wild Card #15...insert your own.

 

Except for Payton Manning and maybe Carson Palmer, did any of these come close to winning a BCS title? I don't think so.

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Compare the above list for those QBs who are, say, considered the Top 15 in the NFL. Here is one possible Top 15 NFL QB list. How close did any of these come to winning a title in college:

 

P. Manning

Brady

Brees

Ben Roethlisberger

Favre

Rivers

A. Rodgers

E. Manning

C. Palmer

McNabb

Romo

Schaub

Matt Ryan

Joe Flacco

? Wild Card #15...insert your own.

 

Except for Payton Manning and maybe Carson Palmer, did any of these come close to winning a BCS title? I don't think so.

 

No, but all but a couple had at least a .700 winning percentage while at their college program.

 

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