Phil Savage Drafts

[Sony Reed]

I continue to read people praising Phil Savage has a talent guru and for his great drafting, we all know of Savage's era in Baltimore drafting quarterbacks thats not very good, what I have also noticed is Phil has not been so great at drafting wide receivers and linebackers while in Cleveland.

 

Wide Receivers Drafted:

 

Paul Hubbard

Syndric Steptoe

Travis Wilson

Braylon Edwards

 

Besides Braylon Edwards not such a impressive list

 

Linebackers:

 

David McMillan - Not On A NFL Roster

Nick Speegle Not On A NFL Roster

Leon Willams FLOP

D'Qwell Jackson - Best Linebacker of a poor linebacker group

Kameiron Wimbly BUST - One rush move, nothing since rookie season

 

The Browns under Phil Savage has drafted 30 players in the 4 drafts Savage has conducted and out of those drafts we currently have 9 starters: Wright, McDonald, Pool, Jackson, Wimbley, Edwards, Thomas, Vickers and Quinn and 8 backup players.

 

IMO looking at that list with Edwards and Thomas being top 3 picks I don't see any other player being a impact player or playmaker from that group though Eric Wright might become a top cornerback in this league and Quinn could become the franchise quarterback we have been looking for.

 

When I look at a guy like Lance Moore last night whom the Browns released it makes me question the talent evaluators on this team, Lance Moore would be a excellent number 2 receiver on this team yet behind Edwards and Stallworth we have a group of special teamers pretending to be NFL receivers and who is the guy responsible for the roster? Phil Savage

 

But People here believe Savage is this great talent guru.

 

Where are all these gems Savage has found? other than Josh Cribbs ?

[Guest Masters]

On Moore, whose call was it? My guess, RAC didn't care for him.

 

Why just look at two positions? You left out the following guys Phil drafted

 

Vickers

Thomas

Wright

Pool

McDonald

 

All solid players.

[DTBH]

As somebody else noted, I'm holding back judgement on a lot of these players until I see them play on a well coached team. Some of these defensive players might be quite a bit better in a Rex Ryan coached defense (hint, hint), especially cornerbacks who are currently hung out to dry by a 3 man rush.

[Guest mz.]

The Lance Moore thing is just a gigantic kick in the balls.

[Sony Reed]

On Moore, whose call was it? My guess, RAC didn't care for him.

 

Why just look at two positions? You left out the following guys Phil drafted

 

Vickers

Thomas

Wright

Pool

McDonald

 

All solid players.

 

 

My point is that we are very weak at the wide receiver position and the guys Phil has drafted have not been very good

 

Thomas was the 3rd pick in the draft he better be good

 

Wright I mentioned could become a top cornerback

 

McDonald is a Nickle Back only IMO, Pool is a very average safety and Vickers is a good FB but I believe from what I see Charles Ali can pretty much do the same as vickers and is a better blocker.

 

I think if you look at Savage's complete draft record its not as good as many people think it is, in 2 drafts he had 2 picks in the top 3 in Edwards and Thomas these are picks the average Joe The Plumber could select, his other selections as of now don't look to great such as:

 

Wimbley....high 1st round has not done anything since rookie season

 

D'Qwell Jackson....too small for 3-4 linebacker

 

Pool has not become that impact player in the secondary you wanted with a pick at the top of round 2

 

Charlie Frye...another awful pick along with Travis Wilson in the 3rd round

 

Issac Sowells...can this guy play? if not why is he on the roster

 

Leon William ....Not very good against the run or pass

 

What I am getting at, where the Browns have drafted ( 3rd, 12, 3rd)the 4 seasons Savage has drafted we should be seeing better players based on all the hype about Savage as a draft genius

[sisky fringo]

we can't discount the fact that savage only drafts high character guys....that really limits his choices significantly. it's easy to forget that.

 

the unfortunate reality is the best character guys in the NFL aren't necessarily the most dominant. they are who they are and might be giving all they can give. can we fault them for that? wierd, isn't it?

 

instead of having all sunday school sam's (who really aren't) or attempting to manage a ton of ego's (like in Dallas for example) i think the best scenario lies in the middle somewhere, that perfect balance of machismo, pride, and ultimately respect. showing constant poise really goes a long way. and that goes for the fans too.

 

if the fans aren't careful about turning on these guys they could easily alienate them. during team/fan rifts owners conscious' get a free pass to sell out. when fans turn it never ends well....and with an owner already grumbling about how the president elect's policy's have inspired an interest in selling the team this is really bad timing. no one can orchestrate a coup well enough to land it in Bernie's lap so we shouldn't play with fire.

 

what a different environment it would be if braylon edwards and sean jones were vets going into their 8th years, and joe thomas was on his 2nd contract, with all this prepubescent bed-wetting far behind us. if the day ever comes when these kids are the vets that foundational core will drive it all. we don't have amani toomer's or michael strahans, we have orpheus royes. the players that usurp our current starters in question will be of the homegrown variety and alsoi the ones to take us all the way. and once they're in place, the browns will not going away.

 

it's simply not time. not for a couple more years realistically.

[sisky fringo]

Pool is a very average safety

Pool has not become that impact player in the secondary you wanted with a pick at the top of round 2

pool. he showed up a little while shaun was injured but since he just helps the db's but rarely makes a play, although those 2 picks were nice. i had high hopes once again this offseason, but thankfully i've finally mentally turned that corner. whoever overtakes him should be their guy for a while. same at RT.

but where are they? FA? draft? it's always a crapshoot with these things. savage has had numerous opportunities to pick high, much higher than 2/3rd's of the league the entire time he's been here. basically in the top 10 the entire time except this year, when he bailed as if to say he can only pick guys when they're obvious. he totally pussied out. have any d-line man from the first day amounted to anything this year?

[Flugel]

My point is that we are very weak at the wide receiver position and the guys Phil has drafted have not been very good

 

Thomas was the 3rd pick in the draft he better be good

 

Wright I mentioned could become a top cornerback

 

McDonald is a Nickle Back only IMO, Pool is a very average safety and Vickers is a good FB but I believe from what I see Charles Ali can pretty much do the same as vickers and is a better blocker.

 

I think if you look at Savage's complete draft record its not as good as many people think it is, in 2 drafts he had 2 picks in the top 3 in Edwards and Thomas these are picks the average Joe The Plumber could select, his other selections as of now don't look to great such as:

 

Wimbley....high 1st round has not done anything since rookie season

 

D'Qwell Jackson....too small for 3-4 linebacker

 

Pool has not become that impact player in the secondary you wanted with a pick at the top of round 2

 

Charlie Frye...another awful pick along with Travis Wilson in the 3rd round

 

Issac Sowells...can this guy play? if not why is he on the roster

 

Leon William ....Not very good against the run or pass

 

What I am getting at, where the Browns have drafted ( 3rd, 12, 3rd)the 4 seasons Savage has drafted we should be seeing better players based on all the hype about Savage as a draft genius

 

 

GREAT job! Name 1 draft pick starting on either line besides a #3 overall? We can't. Our front beside Rogers SUCKS if we're being honest. Injuries shouldn't be an excuse - they should be a GM's resume to showoff the depth chart talent they stockpiled from the draft. When Fisk, Washington, Stewart, Speegle, McMillan, Hoffman, Parker, Kelly and Oshinowo left here - WHAT guys went to another starting rotation elsewhere? That's BAD personnel decisions.

 

It took us 4 years to get a REAL Nose Tackle. Every time he needs oxygen - our entire fan base is left saying "uh-oh!"

 

I get frustrated with Savage more than others BUT he did have a nice 2007 draft to show me he might be getting better at the draft. NOW he needs to get us our first real LBer that isn't petrified to hit somebody.

 

Braylon Edwards' problem isn't talent as 16 TDs in 1 season shows. His problem is character meaning what does he do when his team needs to rely on him to make a play in a tight game. He's become a head case and a DIVA at times. Bill Polian once drafted Andre reed out of Kutztown State. Can you character? Character produces talent look no further than guys like Josh Cribbs or Steve Tasker. We need more of this.

- Tom F.

[We need Tom Tupa]

Who do you want to be GM? Show me their draft record. I'm sick of reading "analysis" of Phil's drafts without any comparison to other GMs. Are other GMs drafting 100% successfully?

 

You think a #3 pick is a gimme? Phil gets no credit for good picks if they are high in the draft? Here's some quick analysis for you:

The Raiders passed on Thomas for Russell.

The Dolphins passed on everyone else in the draft in favor of Ginn jr.

The Titans took VY #3 overall.

49ers took Davis #6.

Cardinals #10 Leinart.

49ers Smith #1.

Bears Benson #3.

Titans Pacman #6

Vikings Troy Williamson #7.

Lions...do I even have to bother listing the players?

Bills Losman, McCargo

Jags Leftwich #7

TIM COUCH

 

 

You dont like the DQ pick? Who would you prefer, Rocky McIntosh or Chad Jackson? They were taken immediately after DQ. Add the Pats to the list of teams with crappy draft picks.

 

Thats 10 teams with high picks that are undoubtedly worse than Edwards or Thomas, who are pro-bowlers by the way.

 

Add the Chargers. They used a 1st round pick on Craig Buster Davis.

 

The Panthers used the 45th overall on Dwayne Jarrett......

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I continue to read people praising Phil Savage has a talent guru and for his great drafting, we all know of Savage's era in Baltimore drafting quarterbacks thats not very good, what I have also noticed is Phil has not been so great at drafting wide receivers and linebackers while in Cleveland.

 

Wide Receivers Drafted:

 

Paul Hubbard

Syndric Steptoe

Travis Wilson

Braylon Edwards

 

Besides Braylon Edwards not such a impressive list

 

Linebackers:

 

David McMillan - Not On A NFL Roster

Nick Speegle Not On A NFL Roster

Leon Willams FLOP

D'Qwell Jackson - Best Linebacker of a poor linebacker group

Kameiron Wimbly BUST - One rush move, nothing since rookie season

 

The Browns under Phil Savage has drafted 30 players in the 4 drafts Savage has conducted and out of those drafts we currently have 9 starters: Wright, McDonald, Pool, Jackson, Wimbley, Edwards, Thomas, Vickers and Quinn and 8 backup players.

 

IMO looking at that list with Edwards and Thomas being top 3 picks I don't see any other player being a impact player or playmaker from that group though Eric Wright might become a top cornerback in this league and Quinn could become the franchise quarterback we have been looking for.

 

When I look at a guy like Lance Moore last night whom the Browns released it makes me question the talent evaluators on this team, Lance Moore would be a excellent number 2 receiver on this team yet behind Edwards and Stallworth we have a group of special teamers pretending to be NFL receivers and who is the guy responsible for the roster? Phil Savage

 

But People here believe Savage is this great talent guru.

 

Where are all these gems Savage has found? other than Josh Cribbs ?

 

If you look around the league, you will see that average of draft picks on the team after 3 years is around 25%. I saw a NFL figure once that said the average of second day picks to make a team in the NFL was less then 25%. That was when rounds 4 thru 7 were second day.

 

I think Savage has made some glaring mistakes, but I have to say that his UFA pickups have been good. Late round picks like Vickers, Harrison and Steptoe have been good. Plus I think Rucker and Bell both could be good. His failures have been in the 3rd and 4th rounds until this year.

 

Late round picks are crap shoots.

 

As for Wimbley, he isn't a 3-4 OLB. He was a reach because of need. If they switch to a 4-3 I think he would be a better DE. He is just not a superior edge rusher in the 3-4. Put his hands down in a one gap scheme, like college, and he might suprise you. Plus as a DE he can put about 10 or 15 lbs back on.

 

Also, Jackson would be a super MLB in the 4-3. Better then he is in the 3-4. That's the problem with the 3-4, you don't know how guys will adjust to it. Perfect example is Cory Williams. He is a monster DT in a one gap 4-3, but adaquate, at best in the 3-4 as a DE.

 

Actually in this FA system, 17 out of 30 draft picks still on the team is pretty good. My biggest problem is that the top picks haven't been big impact players. But, most other GMs would also have taken Edwards, because he was too good of a talent. After 2007 everybody wanted to put Savage on there shoulders and parade him around the league. He was being hailed as the guru. A few injuries and some underachievers and now he is a bum.

 

Also, please don't dismiss the fact that a better coaching staff might get a lot more out of these players. Good players put in a bad scheme can look bad.

[Guest Aloysius]

Who do you want to be GM? Show me their draft record. I'm sick of reading "analysis" of Phil's drafts without any comparison to other GMs. Are other GMs drafting 100% successfully?

Good point.

 

I did a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation of what percentage of teams' draft choices ('05-'07) end up being starting caliber players, and I got these results:

 

Draft Pick Hit Rate

 

Giants: 52.6%

Colts: 38.5%

Chargers: 38.1%

Ravens: 37.5%

Browns: 36%

Steelers: 32%

Patriots: 26.9%

 

Basically, we're in the middle of the pack of the good-drafting teams.

 

This doesn't tell you that we're a great drafting team. After all, some of these other teams are drafting superstars, whereas most of our starters are midlevel quality.

 

However, it does tell you that Phil isn't doing a terrible job; he's avoiding busts just as well as some of the best teams in the league.

 

If you're going to criticize Phil, question some of his FA moves or his management of the media & coaching staff. But you should know that his scouting skills are pretty solid.

[DawgTracker]

This doesn't tell you that we're a great drafting team. After all, some of these other teams are drafting superstars, whereas most of our starters are midlevel quality.

 

However, it does tell you that Phil isn't doing a terrible job; he's avoiding busts just as well as some of the best teams in the league.

 

If you're going to criticize Phil, question some of his FA moves or his management of the media & coaching staff. But you should know that his scouting skills are pretty solid.

 

I think the Browns draft rate will improve when they are picking best player as opposed to glaring need.

[Riffer X]

Quick hitters because I really am tired of everything right now, including the LeBron speculation that is on 24/7 about a player that still has two seasons to go.

 

Phillip should have hit on some UDFA's this year because they scouted the shit out of them since they had no picks. Cribbs fell in the Browns lap. He was a total local product that everybody from around here knew was a badass football player.

 

Oklahoma fetish: I've brought this up before and Al brought a little clarity to it, but Perkins, Pool and Wilson have hurt.

 

Wimbley: As far as I'm concerned a bust who wouldn't start on many teams, 3/4 or 4/3. I disagree that he would fare better in a 4/3 also, he gets manhandled. One thing is for sure in my mind, and that is he sucks in space. No doubt not worthy of the 14th pick.

 

Phillip's % is decent, but consider these guys are replacing complete garbage, so a draft pick sticking here isn't as big a deal, especially when they get the benefit if the doubt.

 

Vickers should have stuck, as FB's even drafted generally stick if they can play at all.

 

Edwards has turned into a bust and an enigma. It's hard for me to give credit for a number three pick who is personally giving games away in a season the team was expected to win. He came with the rep of dropping passes, especially big ones. Ask Michigan or OSU fan about that.

 

Winslow needs to go, but it won't be for much value. Possibly a second if they're lucky, then the renogotiating BS will be done with. Shockey brought a 2nd and 5th I believe.

 

I never cared for the forcefeed DA fest that Phillip was the Grand Poobah for all off season. It reeked all along.

 

I know there is no clear cut answer as to what the problem is with this team, but when things are like this the first thing that has to change is the coach and philosophy. Phil has made mistakes, but I feel he could grow into this but needs a little more help so he can concentrate on what he loves to do, which is scout.

 

People forget this defense sucked peeps when they ran a 4/3 with a $100 million line. Brown, Warren, Roye, Lang/Ekuban etc. ranked dead last in the league in rush defense. The 3/4 will work, but not without a scheme or overall mentality. The 3/4 is supposed to create problems for the offense, but all I see is fellow teams looking forward to playing these guys. That's with Rogers petrifying centers and QB's, too.

 

Let's not forget gems like Ike Sowells in the fourth, either. Then there's good ole Hubs, he of two picks worth. He's practice squad fodder that is being kept around to somehow justify selecting a guy with the skills of a really piss poor Quincy Morgan before he learned how not to play receiver. It may not be that important, but it's a microcosm of what is going on here. I'm detecting Phil trying to "outsmart" the league like Butchie by reaching for guys to prove his merit.

 

I don't see the premium being put on picks like it should be. Jimmy Johnson used to always say the more picks the better, because you're going to miss on them. Phillip missed out on trading a one hit wonder QB for two high picks at least, and that is in the same draft that he traded away the 2nd and 3rd and then jumped all around in the draft using more picks. Worst part is, now we have a coach who says Quinn was known to be the guy all along and some of those picks like Bell and Rucker are keeping security on the sideline.

 

It's almost fooking impossible to be more screwed up than this franchise right now. Winslow and Edwards are prima donnas that don't understand the team game. Lewis is an over the hill supposed leader who leaves yards all over the field. Meanwhile, we leave a guy with obvious game breaking skills and a better overall RB in Harrison hanging out with the scout team. Even then, Lewis goes crying about not getting the ball enough. He is a fraud and needs to go.

 

What's happened is the TO/Chadwick Johnson syndrome. When things go great and the offense is lighting it up it's just peachy keen, but as soon as things go south they all blow up and can't stick together like real winners and men. When things reach that point, it's blowup time.

 

We're going to need all the cap space we can get for future years, so clearing Winslow and Edwards before they cry for extensions, along with Lewis, Davis, Stallworthbitch, Shaffer.....this is the short list for now......is the way to go IMO. Time to get a new identity in here along with fresh coaching.

 

I said in training camp Shaun Smith was becoming a pain in the ass on this team, and that's been confirmed. They played some of their best games without him and Winslow, and his mouth never stops running for a guy who sucks as an end in the 3/4. He's way too fat to play that spot. WPB called that a couple weeks ago. Robaire is probably done being effective, no sense in continuing with an Achilles guy.

 

Not finding some more receivers was a huge mistake, along with the secondary. I don't want to hear about Kevy Kasp, or JJ, or Stallpuss. We have guys like Steptoe, Sanders and the high school kid who catches warmup passes before the game. Edwards should have been benched awhile back, but there is nobody to put in there. Drew Brees is lighting up the league right now with nobodies, but those guys can play. This team fell too much in love with one on one talent.

 

Fraley needs replaced too, he's too small to be successful in the NFL as it is anymore. I said last week the trend will be to go with bigger centers league wide because these 280-300 guys are getting mauled by Rogers/Hampton types. It sure would be nice if guys like Sowells and Travis Wilson could step into those voids (Shaffer/Steptoe), or how about Pittman and Purcell?

 

About the only thing going right now is there are no expectations for next year on this team. It's going to take a lot of little miracles to come together for them to win next year, and I know I'm not getting my hopes up for shit. This season really zapped it out of me, I'm almost tired of caring anymore. I'm sure I'll come around, but I don't know if I'll ever have the same zeal again. Life's too short to care this much about sports only to be let down by a bunch of morons every year. I spent years talking about injuries and bad luck, but this season was strictly bad football and bad management, from the GM and coaching staff to the guys playing for their pride (which is none).

 

If I was Braylon Edwards, I don't think I could show my pretty face, seriously. I've never seen a meltdown like this in my life, and I've been a total Ctown diehard since the mid 70's in every sport. Miguel Dilone and Joe Charbonneau think this guy is a one hit wonder. Dinner Bell Mel Turpin thinks they lack effort. Marquis Smith and Rahim Abdullah think they suck at tackling. Randy Wittman thinks the coaching staff lacks discipline. Paul Silas thinks they are too hard headed and old fashioned.......

 

Most of us here don't deserve this, yet we continue to come back. I remember when I reached the point of feeling sorry for Bengals fans back in the early 2000's, and that's from a guy who HATED Tucky fans living at OSU in the late 80's early 90's. We are now those fans, it's official.

 

This ends my first psycho counseling class. Thanks for listening and I'll have to send a check.

[Dirty Hands]

I

 

When I look at a guy like Lance Moore last night whom the Browns released it makes me question the talent evaluators on this team, Lance Moore would be a excellent number 2 receiver on this team yet behind Edwards and Stallworth we have a group of special teamers pretending to be NFL receivers and who is the guy responsible for the roster? Phil Savage

 

But People here believe Savage is this great talent guru.

 

Where are all these gems Savage has found? other than Josh Cribbs ?

 

i don't know much about Moore other than as of right now he is having a great season for the saints. but how much of that comes from the system he is playing in? Not to mention he seems more like one of those types of guys that maybe after being in the league for a yr or 2 came into his own. i think savage is a great talent guru he's brought in a lot of key talent to a coaching staff he should pull the plug on last yr was a fluke as we can all see against a schedule that favored the browns. and what about alex hall he seems to have a lot of potential. i think being a gm it's not just about what you do with the draft. its about what you do with the team. ideally you draft 7 key players minimum with the draft. What gm actually ever has? busts are just playing the odds with everyone else.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I think the Browns draft rate will improve when they are picking best player as opposed to glaring need.

 

I think it will improve when we get a coach to coach them and a scheme that works. The talent needs developed and that isn't on Savage.

 

[d531]

I continue to read people praising Phil Savage has a talent guru and for his great drafting, we all know of Savage's era in Baltimore drafting quarterbacks thats not very good.

 

 

Hmm...I seem to remember them winning a Superbowl with a not so good QB..I wish we had those problems.

[damajuki]

I know there is no clear cut answer as to what the problem is with this team, but when things are like this the first thing that has to change is the coach and philosophy. Phil has made mistakes, but I feel he could grow into this but needs a little more help so he can concentrate on what he loves to do, which is scout.

 

Time to get a new identity in here along with fresh coaching.

 

About the only thing going right now is there are no expectations for next year on this team. It's going to take a lot of little miracles to come together for them to win next year, and I know I'm not getting my hopes up for shit.

 

This ends my first psycho counseling class. Thanks for listening and I'll have to send a check.

Riff, AWESOME post. I actually didn't see this before posting my plan for '09 thread so it's interesting to see how we hit a lot of the same points.

 

Agreed on the first point totally. Phil doesn't suck at drafting as much as people want to say but he does seem to lack some personal/public relations skills. This team needs an administrative face, as I said over in my thread, more than it needs another talent evaluator.

 

Agree on point two totally. IDENTITY is the key word, as in we NEED ONE. What has our team identity been since we've returned? Palmer, Davis, RAC. Think about those guys and tell me that you'd want their IDs on your team.

 

Coughlin, Dungy, Holmgren, Belichick, Gruden.

 

What do you think of when you read those names? Whatever it is, it's likely positive and it likely jumps right to mind. Those are coaches who HAVE clear identities and whose teams emulate them.

 

Just like you judge a QB on whether or not you can imagine him winning you the Super Bowl, you have to judge a coach on the characteristics he has that could get you there.

 

Lots of little miracles, yes, but as we mentioned, Miami and Atlanta both made huge strides in ONE offseason so it's not impossible. The connection between them? Owners who acted decisively and front office people who did the same. A sense of urgency is required, another thing that Romeo simply does not exhibit.

 

Happy to read your psycho analyzing. Great stuff.

 

[YtownBrownsBacker]

Riff, AWESOME post. I actually didn't see this before posting my plan for '09 thread so it's interesting to see how we hit a lot of the same points.

 

Agreed on the first point totally. Phil doesn't suck at drafting as much as people want to say but he does seem to lack some personal/public relations skills. This team needs an administrative face, as I said over in my thread, more than it needs another talent evaluator.

 

Agree on point two totally. IDENTITY is the key word, as in we NEED ONE. What has our team identity been since we've returned? Palmer, Davis, RAC. Think about those guys and tell me that you'd want their IDs on your team.

 

Coughlin, Dungy, Holmgren, Belichick, Gruden.

 

What do you think of when you read those names? Whatever it is, it's likely positive and it likely jumps right to mind. Those are coaches who HAVE clear identities and whose teams emulate them.

 

Just like you judge a QB on whether or not you can imagine him winning you the Super Bowl, you have to judge a coach on the characteristics he has that could get you there.

 

Lots of little miracles, yes, but as we mentioned, Miami and Atlanta both made huge strides in ONE offseason so it's not impossible. The connection between them? Owners who acted decisively and front office people who did the same. A sense of urgency is required, another thing that Romeo simply does not exhibit.

 

Happy to read your psycho analyzing. Great stuff.

 

I still see some talent here that needs proper coaching to be tapped. Maybe if these kids get the proper coaching the drafts may end up looking pretty good.

 

[Flugel]

Who do you want to be GM? Show me their draft record. I'm sick of reading "analysis" of Phil's drafts without any comparison to other GMs. Are other GMs drafting 100% successfully?

 

Are you serious? It's not MY job to KNOW that world as a fan. How is it any more absurd than wanting a Coordinator that is ONLY used to coaching a talented cast (underneathe GREAT supervision above him); and assuming they're skilled at making untalented players talented? You don't just MAKE talented players if there is NO talent within or CHARACTER. NONE of us get paid to peg guys right so we CAN be wrong. NFL personnel evaluators get GREAT money to do this so it's bottom line unless you want the next Matt Millen. ALOT of highly intelligent Head Coaching candidates won't touch this operation, which is WHY I'm thinking bigger picture above the Head Coach for a refreshing change. Savage threw a fit the last time he was asked to look in the mirror and relinquish some responsibilty so what makes people think he will put on a happy face and relinquish some personnel decisions to the next Head Coach? It's a mess and he p[robably needs to go to improve both the personnel and the Head Coach. I'm SICK of loyalties to the wrong people because our record since 99 sucks!

 

What did Marv Levy EVER accomplish in the NFL before working for Bill Polian? My God he was running a freakin WING T in Kansas City and working in Canada coaching. Has Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, Norv Turner, Dave Wannestedt, Dom Capers, Marvin Lewis or Wade Phillips upgraded 1 program they took over? When a hotshot Coordinator goes to an organization in transition, they're not getting the SAME talented Supervisor they report to NOR are they getting the SAME talented players they were spoiled by. It's OBVIOUS Phil Savage needs a BETTER Supervisor just like RAC needed one here. That said, Lerner said he's not selling the team to more competance so I can ONLY hope he's got a solution to bring MORE experience and better guidance above or in lieu opf Savage because I'm at the threshold some days with "aw shucks the Roman Empire wasn't built in a day." While that's true, it ended when the WRONG people took charge of it.

 

What IS my job is to say I don't see 1 LBer in a FREAKIN 3-4 that isn't petrified of hitting somebody with a shoulder ANYWHERE near the line of scrimmage. The ONLY time Jackson is excited to HIT RBs or receivers is when he can read their names on the back of their jerseys, which means he'll NEVER be the presence we need inside and he'll remain a bullseye for opposing game plans. Buffalo ONLY ran at our middle when Rogers was out - otherwise they were dinking and donking hook zones and flats all day after overcoming early horrible throws there.

 

What IS my job is to say I don't see 1 draft pick along either line besides a #3 overall STARTING or filling in for the overpaid and injured FAs that already played their best football elsewhere.

 

What IS my job is to say this is the first of 4 STINKING years we've put a REAL Nose tackle on the apex of our defense for 50% of the plays his muscular endurance can hold up. That's ALOT of failing to finally get 1 guy worthy unless you think Jason Fisk, Andrew Hoffman, Babe Oshinowo, Ted Washington, Ethan Kelly and Parker are excelling in other rotations as we speak.

 

What IS my job is to notice Jamal Lewis had the same length of short-lived success here as Reuben Droughns (although 2 rushing TDs weren't wonderful) and say William Green (strong finsish as a rookie & two early 100 yard outings in early 2003 vrs Oakland & Pitt).

 

What IS my job is to WONDER why Savage thought we had NOBODY capable of replacing Northcutt, which SHOWED me he didn't know who Northcutt was when he opted to keep him and raise him up 2 million $ and it REALLY means he didn't have the first clue about Cribbs other than there's nothign to lose on an undrafted FA.

 

What IS my job is to say Marques Colston was available in the 7th round the year we took Travis Wilson as Phil's alleged STEAL.

 

What IS my job as an avid fan of 40 years is to compare and contrast how Pittsburgh's franchise conducts business in their front office. If you want to compare personnel decisions for choosing a LBer like D'Qwell Jackson & Kam Wimbley where we took them be prepared to see how Pittsburgh's Personnel experts equipped their front 7 with Larry Foote in round 4 of 2002, LaMarr Woodley in round 2 of 2007. While Phil went after FA Matt Freakin Stewart - the Steelers idea of FA LBer James Farrior. While Phil spent 4 years guessing on the apex with Hoffman, Fisk, Oshinowo, Parker, and Kelly Pitt landed Hampton AND Hoke (via draft and free agency). Moving onto Safety, compare ANY of our's with Pollyneedsahaircut and you find junior achievement vrs planning game plans around WHERE he is at all times. See how this CGHNAGES a coach's ability to play chess? So let's just find another guy that will get culture shcoked at seeing he has a bunch of guys that aren't NFL worthy or that were ONCE NFL worthy at FA dollars.

 

My job IS to notice what guys like Northcutt, Roye, Bodden, McCutcheon, and Davis did AFTER getting the same "great job" salary increases. I can say the same for our coachign staff that with raises Todd Granthom got with our D ranking next to last and RAC got for no playoffs in his first 3 years. That's premature knee jerk killing us.

 

My job IS to notice that when Savage says he was brought here for the MAIN reason of improving our draft, FA and continuity when in actuality he's looking to many of our players from previous regimes like Sean Jones, Ryan Pontbriand, Phil Dawson, Ryan Tucker and Kellen Winslow. Has he REALLY improved stuff? Nobody excused Butch when the defense he planned around Jamir's pass rush off the edge had it's achilles slashed in preseason. I find it funny when they want to excuse Phill for our depth chart when his FAs like Bentley and Baxter went down to injury.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if ALL we needed to do was HIRE the right Head Coach and it's as easy as you seem to think why am I already looking at Strike 3?

 

You want BAD Management from the top? Try this out for size:

1. "Were gonna compete right away. BTW, Chris Palmer wasn't our first or second choice of Head Coaches." YAY!!!!

2. "With the first pick, the Cleveland Browns select Tim Couch. With the first pick the Cleveland Browns select Courtney "Olay" Brown." YAY!!!

3. Anyone happy with Chris Palmer's replacement at Head Coach today? What about Butch Davis' replacement?

 

Me blaming the top is LESS absurd than continuing to blame Head Coach after Head Coach after Head Coach. Doesn't the TOP make the decision on the Head coaches and whether or not they get raises or walking papers? If you were to ask Bill Belichick what the 4 biggest differences are between working in Cleveland and working in NE - he'd say:

1) "I don't wake up to death threats on me or my at all hours of the night in NE."

2) "I got Tom Brady in round 6 instead of Spergon Wynn. I was actually winless in 01 before Brady started his 1st game."

3) "I have more competance above me so coaching is alot easier in NE."

4) "Players come to NE to win not rolloever and play dead on game day before cashing their enormous paychecks. We call this character, which is just important to winning games."

- Tom F. (I'm guilty of wanting Spags BUT we don't have a Kiwanuka ready to pass rush if an All Pro guy on the edge gets injured. We certainly have NOT drafted a Justin Tuck. Hixon and Steve Smith would be our best WRs and I LOVED their 3 deepness at tailback ahead of guys like Ryan Powell and Reuben Droughns. I call that EASY to coach)

[Solon16]

Are you serious? It's not MY job to KNOW that world as a fan. How is it any more absurd than wanting a Coordinator that is ONLY used to coaching a talented cast (underneathe GREAT supervision above him); and assuming they're skilled at making untalented players talented? You don't just MAKE talented players if there is NO talent within or CHARACTER. NONE of us get paid to peg guys right so we CAN be wrong. NFL personnel evaluators get GREAT money to do this so it's bottom line unless you want the next Matt Millen. ALOT of highly intelligent Head Coaching candidates won't touch this operation, which is WHY I'm thinking bigger picture above the Head Coach for a refreshing change. Savage threw a fit the last time he was asked to look in the mirror and relinquish some responsibilty so what makes people think he will put on a happy face and relinquish some personnel decisions to the next Head Coach? It's a mess and he p[robably needs to go to improve both the personnel and the Head Coach. I'm SICK of loyalties to the wrong people because our record since 99 sucks!

 

What did Marv Levy EVER accomplish in the NFL before working for Bill Polian? My God he was running a freakin WING T in Kansas City and working in Canada coaching. Has Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, Norv Turner, Dave Wannestedt, Dom Capers, Marvin Lewis or Wade Phillips upgraded 1 program they took over? When a hotshot Coordinator goes to an organization in transition, they're not getting the SAME talented Supervisor they report to NOR are they getting the SAME talented players they were spoiled by. It's OBVIOUS Phil Savage needs a BETTER Supervisor just like RAC needed one here. That said, Lerner said he's not selling the team to more competance so I can ONLY hope he's got a solution to bring MORE experience and better guidance above or in lieu opf Savage because I'm at the threshold some days with "aw shucks the Roman Empire wasn't built in a day." While that's true, it ended when the WRONG people took charge of it.

 

What IS my job is to say I don't see 1 LBer in a FREAKIN 3-4 that isn't petrified of hitting somebody with a shoulder ANYWHERE near the line of scrimmage. The ONLY time Jackson is excited to HIT RBs or receivers is when he can read their names on the back of their jerseys, which means he'll NEVER be the presence we need inside and he'll remain a bullseye for opposing game plans. Buffalo ONLY ran at our middle when Rogers was out - otherwise they were dinking and donking hook zones and flats all day after overcoming early horrible throws there.

 

What IS my job is to say I don't see 1 draft pick along either line besides a #3 overall STARTING or filling in for the overpaid and injured FAs that already played their best football elsewhere.

 

What IS my job is to say this is the first of 4 STINKING years we've put a REAL Nose tackle on the apex of our defense for 50% of the plays his muscular endurance can hold up. That's ALOT of failing to finally get 1 guy worthy unless you think Jason Fisk, Andrew Hoffman, Babe Oshinowo, Ted Washington, Ethan Kelly and Parker are excelling in other rotations as we speak.

 

What IS my job is to notice Jamal Lewis had the same length of short-lived success here as Reuben Droughns (although 2 rushing TDs weren't wonderful) and say William Green (strong finsish as a rookie & two early 100 yard outings in early 2003 vrs Oakland & Pitt).

 

What IS my job is to WONDER why Savage thought we had NOBODY capable of replacing Northcutt, which SHOWED me he didn't know who Northcutt was when he opted to keep him and raise him up 2 million $ and it REALLY means he didn't have the first clue about Cribbs other than there's nothign to lose on an undrafted FA.

 

What IS my job is to say Marques Colston was available in the 7th round the year we took Travis Wilson as Phil's alleged STEAL.

 

What IS my job as an avid fan of 40 years is to compare and contrast how Pittsburgh's franchise conducts business in their front office. If you want to compare personnel decisions for choosing a LBer like D'Qwell Jackson & Kam Wimbley where we took them be prepared to see how Pittsburgh's Personnel experts equipped their front 7 with Larry Foote in round 4 of 2002, LaMarr Woodley in round 2 of 2007. While Phil went after FA Matt Freakin Stewart - the Steelers idea of FA LBer James Farrior. While Phil spent 4 years guessing on the apex with Hoffman, Fisk, Oshinowo, Parker, and Kelly Pitt landed Hampton AND Hoke (via draft and free agency). Moving onto Safety, compare ANY of our's with Pollyneedsahaircut and you find junior achievement vrs planning game plans around WHERE he is at all times. See how this CGHNAGES a coach's ability to play chess? So let's just find another guy that will get culture shcoked at seeing he has a bunch of guys that aren't NFL worthy or that were ONCE NFL worthy at FA dollars.

 

My job IS to notice what guys like Northcutt, Roye, Bodden, McCutcheon, and Davis did AFTER getting the same "great job" salary increases. I can say the same for our coachign staff that with raises Todd Granthom got with our D ranking next to last and RAC got for no playoffs in his first 3 years. That's premature knee jerk killing us.

 

My job IS to notice that when Savage says he was brought here for the MAIN reason of improving our draft, FA and continuity when in actuality he's looking to many of our players from previous regimes like Sean Jones, Ryan Pontbriand, Phil Dawson, Ryan Tucker and Kellen Winslow. Has he REALLY improved stuff? Nobody excused Butch when the defense he planned around Jamir's pass rush off the edge had it's achilles slashed in preseason. I find it funny when they want to excuse Phill for our depth chart when his FAs like Bentley and Baxter went down to injury.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if ALL we needed to do was HIRE the right Head Coach and it's as easy as you seem to think why am I already looking at Strike 3?

 

You want BAD Management from the top? Try this out for size:

1. "Were gonna compete right away. BTW, Chris Palmer wasn't our first or second choice of Head Coaches." YAY!!!!

2. "With the first pick, the Cleveland Browns select Tim Couch. With the first pick the Cleveland Browns select Courtney "Olay" Brown." YAY!!!

3. Anyone happy with Chris Palmer's replacement at Head Coach today? What about Butch Davis' replacement?

 

Me blaming the top is LESS absurd than continuing to blame Head Coach after Head Coach after Head Coach. Doesn't the TOP make the decision on the Head coaches and whether or not they get raises or walking papers? If you were to ask Bill Belichick what the 4 biggest differences are between working in Cleveland and working in NE - he'd say:

1) "I don't wake up to death threats on me or my at all hours of the night in NE."

2) "I got Tom Brady in round 6 instead of Spergon Wynn. I was actually winless in 01 before Brady started his 1st game."

3) "I have more competance above me so coaching is alot easier in NE."

4) "Players come to NE to win not rolloever and play dead on game day before cashing their enormous paychecks. We call this character, which is just important to winning games."

- Tom F. (I'm guilty of wanting Spags BUT we don't have a Kiwanuka ready to pass rush if an All Pro guy on the edge gets injured. We certainly have NOT drafted a Justin Tuck. Hixon and Steve Smith would be our best WRs and I LOVED their 3 deepness at tailback ahead of guys like Ryan Powell and Reuben Droughns. I call that EASY to coach)

 

You make some good points....my biggest contention with your approach is Giants are an established team....they didn't go out of existence for three years and then only have 5 months to prepare for the draft and organizational structure.....And the number 1 reason for our state of the union for the Browns can be found in this....Only 1 player from 99~2003 drafts is on our team. ONE! Andra "fuckin" Davis. How can ANY organization recover Quickly from trying to organize a team from scratch, and then miss on 15 picks in rounds 1~3... 15 misses...!!!..three misses a year 5 straight years of the top 99 players in the draft....unimaginable! Actually more if you allow for xtra picks the nfl "gave us.... That is why Giants can have a Kiwanuka,Tuck waiting in the wings...they had depth before....we didn't....They only team that we can be evaluated against is Houston in my opinion! Here is my caveat...if we don't draft a ILB high this year....or a Running back I'll be with you on the Savage hate

 

 

[ballpeen]

I think the Browns draft rate will improve when they are picking best player as opposed to glaring need.

 

I agree.

 

If you want to see what happens when you draft for needs, just look at the PITIFUL linebackers we have drafted over the past 3-4 years.

 

Needs based drafting is for losers.

[We need Tom Tupa]

Tom, is isnt your job to back up your claims with relevant facts? I'm not asking you to play GM, just tell me which ones are better than Savage. Picking out a couple hits by one or two other teams compared to a couple choice misses by Phil isnt really saying anything is it? Savage missed Colston, but so did every other GM in the league, right? At least a few times, and that includes your boy Polian and the almighty stoolers. The facts are out there, wikipedia can tell you who was taken in every draft that Savage participated in. Which GMs consistently outperformed him? Is it more than a few? Alo gave you some quick numbers showing Phil picks as well as the Steeler, Pats, Ravens, Colts... Are you sure he isnt a great GM?

 

If you're going to ask me to read your novel length rants, I dont think it is too much for me to ask that you give me something more than a list of what pisses you off.

[Flugel]

Tom, is isnt your job to back up your claims with relevant facts? Are you sure he isnt a great GM?

 

They are facts BUT they don't support your opinion so you get personal and pissy.

 

That said, I like your nervous style of asking questions so don't mind if I stoop to it here.

What was our record in 2005? How many GMs were better? Are names necessary from me?

What was our record in 2006? How many GMs were better? Are names necessary from me?

What was our divisional record in 2007? Did we make the playoffs? How many GMs were better? Are names necessary?

What is our record in 2008? How many GMs are better? Are names necessary from me?

After 4 years - what's our winning percentage? What's the feedback about our starting QB situation? How does an unbiased commentator see our team? What do people think of our LBers?

 

How have the following players/coaches justified salary increases immediately after:

Orpheus Roye?

Leigh Bodden?

Andra Davis?

Ryan Tucker?

Todd Granthom?

Denise Northcutt?

Reuben Droughns?

RAC?

Derek Anderson?

Jamal Lewis?

 

Have the following FAs been way overpaid? Just a simple yes or no please:

Donte Stallworth?

Corey Williams?

Matt Stewart?

Jason Fisk?

Joe Andruzzi?

Kenny Wright?

Ted Washington?

What was their return value in terms of wins and losses per average seat price at home?

 

Sticking with factuals instead of opinion here's more questions you're bound to hate if you're wearing knee pads for Phil Savage:

What draftees are providing depth on the oline?

What percentage of draftees have hung onto make our dline rotation? What percentage landed on other starting rotations?

What was our record with Trent Dilfer starting?

Were people HAPPY to see Dilfer replaced by Frye (be honest)?

What was Frye's record as starting QB?

Did DA win his first 3 starts in 2006?

Were people happy to see Dumb Ass replace Frye (be honest)?

Has DA won any of his last 3 starts?

Were people happy to see BQ replacing Dumb Ass (be honest)?

After 2 full years on the roster - do we know if Quinn will be viewed as negatively as Savage's other QBs of choice like Kyle Boller, Charlie Frye, Stoney Case, and Chris Redman?

Why did it take 4 years to land a REAL Nose Tackle? Am I accurate in saying Parker, Kelley, Washington, Fisk, Hoffman and Oshinowo = 6 swing and misses? Does htis = .000 batting average? Is this opinion or are they starting elsewhere today?

 

Can you name 1 LBer of the 4 - you're REALLY impressed with on our team in terms of consistently performing at a high level after 4 years? Wasn't there a time we could easily answer Clay Matthews and Chip Banks or Clay Matthews and Mike Johnson while thinking the other 2 weren't bad?

 

In the 80s, we had talent coming in from everywhere and EVERY guy seemd to be like "WOW, great find!" Now we got all these guys that were great 3-5 years ago but too worn and torn to be anything close. This has blended with bad drafting every year but 2007 and uncontrollable injury misfortunes that MAKE depth ever so important. As they say, they're in the entertainment business. When they're not winning or making the playoffs I can't agree they're being well managed. Why? Because I've seen our team when Personnel guys like Accorsi and Lombardi had us good enough for post seasons. I'm not GOOD at telling you WHO is out there now because I've never been interested in researching it. I AM good at telling you we've found the RIGHT guys before. We have or I wouldn't be so fond of our 80s memories. Trouble is that's 20-30 years ago now. MAYBE if our owner didn't have to balance the Cleveland Browns with several other hobbies and a Pro Soccer team - he'd have the TIME to get the RIGHT person in here to run the business the RIGHT way.

 

In 4 years, our BEST divisional record has been 3-3. The other 3 years range from 1 to 2 wins per 6 games. Pass or fail? Everytime I watch us matching up with Pittsburgh - it's like watching a chess match where one contestant is ONLY allowed to attack with pawns while the other is allowed to use all guys the guys. I see the coach with just pawns at a disadvantage so when we change coaches I hope we give him more than just pawns to work with or ZERO changes. Can we agree on that much?

- Tom F.

[Solon16]

6 probowlers....those are the facts and they are undisputed.

[Flugel]

6 probowlers....those are the facts and they are undisputed.

 

I'm glad we have some professional bowlers but we're talking about professional football. Maybe Lerner can bring some athletes over from England so we can say we have pro soccer players too. All kidding aside, have you read what the majority says about Dumb Ass, Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow 365 days later? They all got that Vince Young karma after geting pro Bowl on their resumes. Some say they lack the right character as evidenced by their focus and DIVA like tendencies on Sundays

 

Do you want to straighten out Jeff Fisher with your Pro Bowl logic? Again, Vince Young made the Pro Bowl too. You make it sound like all of our 2008 opponents will give us our losses back and we can be this modern version of the 72 Dolphins you see going undisputed. Only OUR Earl Morral can't tell what color jerseys his receivers are wearing and our version of Paul Warfield can't catch anything touching his hands. BUT, they both made the Pro Bowl 52 weeks ago. Actually, Tom Brady preferred his tee time so Dumb Ass got invited to fill the vacancy. How'd he look anyway?

 

Just out of curiosity why can RAC only coach talented players in NE and yet when he has ALL this "undisputed" talent in Cleveland - he gets football coaching amnesia? That said, our return game in 2007 had us ranked in elite compnay for average starting field position but that's not REALLY convenient because we have to notice the guy SAVAGE said could NOT replace Northcutt actually upgraded Northcutt. So, shhhhh! We need to whisper on this one.

 

MAYBE, just maybe, Phil Savage can ONLY handle limited personnel duties when he has a STRONG Supervisor like Ozzie exerting quality control whenever necessary. Then again, this is Cleveland where it was ONLY Chris Palmer's fault we started out with Tim Couch, Courtney Brown, Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner and Spergon Wynn over Tom Brady. HOW COULD we consider blaming a guy Policy? And why was Policy GOOD in SF and he sucked in Cleveland? Competant Supervisor above him maybe?

 

You see - these guys go from GREAT Supervisors where success is possible to a chaotic ownership with too many hobbies and 1 too many Pro Sports teams. End result? Culture shock and WHERE are all the talented players you promised me? You think all we gotta do is grab 1 more Coordinator from a perfect environment and put him in Lerner's office without the right Supervision. I wish it were that simple my friend - but it hasn't been yet. We're looking at strike 3 already on the Head Coach thing in just 9 years. This isn't opinion - look at our divisional and overall records since 99. Jimmy Johnson prolly said it best - "it ain't like Butch Davis or Romeo Crennel FORGOT how to coach good football players. I'll stop there." Homers REFUSE this because we're not talking about 1 simple problem solve and they HATE knowing we've overrated the CRAP out of guys like Winslow, Edwards, Anderson, Lewis (today), Stallworth, Fisk, Washington, Stewart, Peek, Jackson, Davis, Williams.

 

I used to LOVE Winslow but he can't block DEs and he's lost so many steps we're seeing weekly flags for pushing off. After 3-4 knee surgeries and too many staph infections - we've got a fraction of who that kid was. Savage doesn't understand the difference between PRIME and HASBEEN. It's killed us to date. He hasn't been much better at QB when our schedule doesn't have 12 teams averaging 4 wins.

 

We shouldn't look like this 4 years into a GM's plan and I think it takes two to make a divorce between GM and Head Coach. They BOTH sucked, so all this pretention we're loaded with talent is crazy. Watch our defense and remind me how great anyone besides Rogers looks. I don't see Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork or Ty Warren upfront even though our group is paid as well.

- Tom F. (Welcome to Oregon State Football where we can beat the BEST team on the planet 1 week and then go give up 65 points to our inner state rivals. And you wonder why this team gives Lummy a stinger? He's a HUGE Phil Savage fan)

[Solon16]

We disagree about Savage....the northcutt thing you keep refering too is not real....we re-signed him before the draft.... Also When Quinn went down for the year...aren't you atleast glad we have a solid backup? The reason we kept DA in the first place was to have two good Qb's if one went down. Wish we would have just gotten a first and third for DA as a rfa and should have signed him to a minimum tender...but then we'd have dorsey at QB and Cribbs(?) as backup.

[We need Tom Tupa]

Tom, get a grip man. I'm asking reasonable questions here (I think that's different than "nervous questions", but I cant figure out what that is supposed to mean, so...). I agree that Phil has missed on some draft picks. I agree that we havent won the division, have had 1 winning season, etc. But your making absolute judgments on his performance doesnt make sense. Saying he has done a "bad" job only makes sense if you mean it as measured in relation to his peers. So relate it to his peers. If he's so terrible, it should be easy. Roll out your list of GMs that draft better than him consistently. If it is so obvious to not make it worth your time, then just name a handful off the top of your head. If it's right, you dont have to worry about someone checking your facts. You obviously have plenty of time to spend on this, you've devoted about 3,000 words now to NOT answering my ONE question.

[Guest Aloysius]

One thing I noticed when I did my draft pick hit rate analysis was how good Ernie Accorsi & Jerry Reese have been at drafting players for the Giants.

 

In the '05 draft, they were short a 1st and a 5th from the Eli Manning trade (pretty similar to our situation in last year's draft), yet they came out of it with an incredible haul:

• Round 2: Corey Webster - had started off and on at CB for the past few years, but was HUGE in the playoffs last year. Has 3 picks so far this year.

   

• Round 3: Justin Tuck - 10 sacks last year, 11.5 this year

   

• Round 4: Brandon Jacobs - Converging on career stat of 5.0 yards per carry; has 11 rushing TD's this season.

   

• Round 6: Eric Moore - Reserve DE now with St. Louis

Despite lacking a 1st Round pick, the Giants ended up drafting 2-3 guys with 1st Round talent, two of whom are elite players.

 

Just great stuff.

[Mitch]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Cribbs? While not a drafted player he was signed out of college as an undrafted FA by Savage

[We need Tom Tupa]

One thing I noticed when I did my draft pick hit rate analysis was how good Ernie Accorsi & Jerry Reese have been at drafting players for the Giants.

 

In the '05 draft, they were short a 1st and a 5th from the Eli Manning trade (pretty similar to our situation in last year's draft), yet they came out of it with an incredible haul:

• Round 2: Corey Webster - had started off and on at CB for the past few years, but was HUGE in the playoffs last year. Has 3 picks so far this year.

   

• Round 3: Justin Tuck - 10 sacks last year, 11.5 this year

   

• Round 4: Brandon Jacobs - Converging on career stat of 5.0 yards per carry; has 11 rushing TD's this season.

   

• Round 6: Eric Moore - Reserve DE now with St. Louis

Despite lacking a 1st Round pick, the Giants ended up drafting 2-3 guys with 1st Round talent, two of whom are elite players.

 

Just great stuff.

Yeah, that was the story of last year's Super Bowl. Really incredible stuff.