Is Phil Savage the Main problem

[osusev]

This is more of a hypothetical devils advocate sort of argument.

 

Successful coaches tend to have a LOT more control than RAC does. They dont tend to give up personnel decisions of drafts completely over to the GM.

 

Savage had that power struggle fight with I cant remember his name initially and won.

 

Savage NOT RAC fired Carthon and probably chose Chud and Carthon with Rac giving his assent. (this is obviously conjecture)

 

RAC in order to get his first coaching job probably agreed to a lot less control than most head coaches and specifically successful ones.

 

Somone other than RAC made the decision for playing Quinn which that probably means savage in the manner they did.

 

Lerner is a hands off owner and gave Savage the keys to the kingdom maybe he needs to be the personnel operations president and not the GM.

 

I am not defending Carthon or RAC/Tucker fromt he Top down we are flawed and that starts with Savage. Looking at patterns of successful coaches and management shows a strong trend that coaches have a whole lot more say over player personnel and firing and hiring assistants.

 

This is not a BQ vs DA debate. This is a hypothetical possibility. I am not defending RAC and some of his choices in clock managment and other things I am just pointing out that maybe we really dont know what RAC would or would not do as a true head coach because Savage is to controlling as a GM.

[Lumbergh]

Lerner is a hands off owner and gave Savage the keys to the kingdom maybe he needs to be the personnel operations president and not the GM.

 

Lerner is the #1 problem.

[Gips]

Hypothetically speaking RAC has no talent evaluation or other coaching skills and if he had more control charlie frye would still hypothetically be our qb other then that yeah savage is in my mind a big part of the problem but an owner that lacks the ability to put the right people in the organization is hypothetically the biggest problem we have and its called the lerner curse..

 

Randy is not the kind of guy that should own an nfl franchise he inherited the browns and to celebrate his new inheritence he bought a soccer team in england and his football philosophy is one that doesnt match with lifelong browns fans who are use to not going to the superbowl but were used to having a team as ruff and tumble as cleveland itself a team that was always competitive even in bad years a team that we could be proud of for the most part lerner has brough nothing but shame and laughter to this historic and once proud franchise its now just a cesspool with an owner that knows his team sucks so bad he dont even come to his teams home games..

 

But he still wants us to buy tickets to watch his bad product quit on the field and lose..

[Greythan]

Lerner is the #1 problem.

Change your tune? I thought Quinn was your biggest problem.

[d531]

This is more of a hypothetical devils advocate sort of argument.

 

Successful coaches tend to have a LOT more control than RAC does. They dont tend to give up personnel decisions of drafts completely over to the GM.

 

Savage had that power struggle fight with I cant remember his name initially and won.

 

Savage NOT RAC fired Carthon and probably chose Chud and Carthon with Rac giving his assent. (this is obviously conjecture)

 

RAC in order to get his first coaching job probably agreed to a lot less control than most head coaches and specifically successful ones.

 

Somone other than RAC made the decision for playing Quinn which that probably means savage in the manner they did.

 

Lerner is a hands off owner and gave Savage the keys to the kingdom maybe he needs to be the personnel operations president and not the GM.

 

I am not defending Carthon or RAC/Tucker fromt he Top down we are flawed and that starts with Savage. Looking at patterns of successful coaches and management shows a strong trend that coaches have a whole lot more say over player personnel and firing and hiring assistants.

 

This is not a BQ vs DA debate. This is a hypothetical possibility. I am not defending RAC and some of his choices in clock managment and other things I am just pointing out that maybe we really dont know what RAC would or would not do as a true head coach because Savage is to controlling as a GM.

 

No, Savage is not the problem. The browns have the talent, I would say top 25% in talent. The problem is the browns are not prepared, mentally.

 

The Steelers were a great example of this a couple years back. One year..Superbowl Champs. The next year, same coaches and players, and they laid an egg all season...The difference, mental.

 

I firmly believe that 75% of the teams have the talent to win the Superbowl. But, when it comes to game time, there is a whole other level that most teams cannot consistantly play week in and week out. The ones who do, the ones who will not be denied, the ones who have figured at how to harness the adrenaline are the year end contenders.

 

Now who is responsible for finding that level of playing needed to be contenders and pulling it out of each and every player? I'd have to say the coaching staff.

 

[osusev]

Gips you have NO way of knowing if RAC can evaluate talent that is pure conjecture.

 

IF Lerner decides to go after Cowher or Billick or any other Belichick/Parcells student they are not going to be able to coexist with Savage in our current Power structure and PS does not want to give up any control he has.

 

If we dont change from the "top of the ticket" the same systematic failures and type of coaching talent possibly just repeats itself. IF we follow other successful management/coaching models in the League we would have to make a radical departure from the way Savage operates.

[pl4tinum]

Gips you have NO way of knowing if RAC can evaluate talent that is pure conjecture.

 

Let's see.

 

He won't give Chud the order to play him more, so we have to assume he has no clue that Harrison has more talent than Jason Wright.

[rich4eagle]

This is more of a hypothetical devils advocate sort of argument.

 

Successful coaches tend to have a LOT more control than RAC does. They dont tend to give up personnel decisions of drafts completely over to the GM.

 

Savage had that power struggle fight with I cant remember his name initially and won.

 

Savage NOT RAC fired Carthon and probably chose Chud and Carthon with Rac giving his assent. (this is obviously conjecture)

 

RAC in order to get his first coaching job probably agreed to a lot less control than most head coaches and specifically successful ones.

 

Somone other than RAC made the decision for playing Quinn which that probably means savage in the manner they did.

 

Lerner is a hands off owner and gave Savage the keys to the kingdom maybe he needs to be the personnel operations president and not the GM.

 

I am not defending Carthon or RAC/Tucker fromt he Top down we are flawed and that starts with Savage. Looking at patterns of successful coaches and management shows a strong trend that coaches have a whole lot more say over player personnel and firing and hiring assistants.

 

This is not a BQ vs DA debate. This is a hypothetical possibility. I am not defending RAC and some of his choices in clock managment and other things I am just pointing out that maybe we really dont know what RAC would or would not do as a true head coach because Savage is to controlling as a GM.

 

YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NEVEr READ JACK SHEET FROM A FEW OF US ABOUT SEWAGE THE LAST FOUR YEARS..................BUT PLEASE DO REINVENT THE WHEEL

[Flugel]

Lerner is the #1 problem.

 

Gee ya think? Anyone that pays Dumb Ass more than NFL minimum wage and gives Andra Davis a hefty raise has 1 hobby too many.

 

As for the title of this thread: while everyone wants to coddle and baby Phil Savage - look at the Miami Dolphins. They inserted an ego maniacal PRICK as their GM who hand picked the SAME kind of prick as his Head Coach and you'd NEVER know that franchise was fresh off a 1-15 disaster in 2007. I'm so dadblasted sick of rah rahs and player coaches here. Hire a basterd that wins or fires people and WATCH the character of this team chnage as quickly as necessary.

 

Tom Coughlin is another basterd. Is there any question about the CHARCTER of that team? Everything they do is high intensity. Jeremy Shockey wanted to be a DIVA, Tiki Barber was a DIVA and they got better in their absence. Burress wants to be a DIVA and they win without him. DIVAS want player coaches because they control them. Football players want basterds because they prefer to WIN.

 

Right now, I can honestly say there's only 3 players on this team that are NOT replaceable: Joe Thomas, Shaun Rogers and Josh Cribbs. That's it. I'm hoping I can say this about Quinn because I liked what I saw in his first 2 starts. He's more accurate than Dumb Ass with a broken index finger and he's 100 times more intelligent.

 

It shouldn't take a GOOD GM 4 years to find his first suitable Nose Tackle and we're still looking for our first legit LBer. All this said, the 2007 DRAFT was a sign of improvement from Savage and I DO think it's a HUGE challenge for someone as young as Savage. I'm just NOT gonna have the patience if we suck again in 2009 because that's already our 11th season since returning in 99. Time flies folks and at some point we have to demand MORE.

- Tom F.

[bugzilla]

I don't think Savage is the problem. Does anyone remember how bad the players we had streaming in here for years under coach/GM Butch Davis? Would anyone go back to the days of Tim Couch and Dennis Northcut? At least Phil has gotten us some playmakers. Thomas, Cribbs and Jamal Lewis are players. Quinn has the chance to be great. Even DA had some good games and Braylon Edwards, Kellen Winslow have the physical abilities to be great. Romeo Crennel is an awful coach and he has brought out the diva in these players. This team needs a real ball buster of a coach to come in and get these players in line.

 

Romeo is not head coach material. He's meant to be a coordinator or teacher. He's the player's "friend". Players need a coach that has 100% control of every situation and doesn't take any crap from his employees.

[Nirvana26]

I really think the problem is Braylon Edwards. His dropped passes just kill to much momentum.

 

Granted, I don't think Crennell uses Harrison enough, but generating points shouldn't be as big of a problem for this team as its been. 6 points against the Texans is just horrible. I've given Anderson the benefit of the doubt because of the preseason concussion. I figure he didn't get enough time to prepare for the season, and probably hasn't been 100%, but Quinn looked good against, Denver and Buffalo, which makes him getting pulled even harder to swallow (would have liked to see how he reacted in the remainder of the game).

 

But if Braylon would just catch the damn ball, it would go a long way to extending drives, building momentum, and keeping the defense off the field.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I do believe that Savage has upgraded the talent on this team but he has made some big mistakes also. First let me say that I don't think RAC has made his job any easier because he could have all the talent in the world and I don't think he could put them on the field with a game plan to win consistently.

 

That being said, the coach has to have some say in personnel decisions, the GM can't be the only say. Savage was at Balt and he should know that the 3-4 defense starts with a NT and then the key to making it work is the LBs. He has not brought in the talent at LB to make the 3-4 work. Also, this year he left the team short at DB after Holly went down and that has made a weak defense weaker. Bringing in Cousins as a solution was a joke.

 

So, has Savage been the main problem? I'd say no. RAC is totally inadaquate. But, Savage isn't without blame. His drafts have been only fair, at best, and he has brought inas many bad FAs as good ones. So, Savage is a "C" so far, but RAC is a "D-". As a matter of fact, the whole coaching staff is a "D" at best.

 

Time to clean house, but I wouldn't mind Savage staying is he gave up so power over personnel decisions to the next coach. Also, he would have to let the next coach bring in his own staff. I think Savage needs to check his ego and build a team.

[ballpeen]

Time to clean house, but I wouldn't mind Savage staying is he gave up so power over personnel decisions to the next coach. Also, he would have to let the next coach bring in his own staff. I think Savage needs to check his ego and build a team.

 

 

I agree YTBB. Phil seems to want to play coach without taking the direct heat of gameday wins and losses.

[Flugel]

I don't think Savage is the problem. Does anyone remember how bad the players we had streaming in here for years under coach/GM Butch Davis? Would anyone go back to the days of Tim Couch and Dennis Northcut?

 

Butch Davis did NOT draft Tim Couch or Courtney Brown he just inherited a 5-27 football team that was in the playoffs 2 years later. You're saying Phil Savage has been better? What's our record since he came here anyway? This is the 4th year of his plan and you approve? God bless ya!

 

FYI, Savage KEPT Northcutt and gave him a salary increase to stay quoting "his dual function is not replaceable in our return game or passing game." In other words, he had NO idea Cribbs was an upgrade but crediting anyone on the staff for what we're seeing from his is inconvenient to the rant that the ONLY problem with this team is coaching. Coaching is just 1 of MANY symptoms I see.

 

Savage gave Andra Davis a raise. The SAME Andra Davis that Jamal Lewis ran through for 500 yards in 2 outings. The SAD truth is Lewis didn't play in either 4th quarter or he might have dialed up 700 yards in the 2 outings.

 

2 guys combining for 5 offsides penalties vrs Cincy isn't coaching - it's CHARACTER via lack of focus. Teenagers GET this so blaming a coach because a PROFESSIONAL doesn't is silly.

 

Edwards scored 16 TDs in 2007 so TALENT isn't the issue - CHARACTER is. How does one respond to adversity? That's CHARACTER and all I'm seeing is Michigan from Mr Edwards in the face of adversity. I thought he was turnign the corner vres Buffalo but we can't erase the Michigan in the kid. CHARACTER!

 

It took 4 FREAKIN years to land a REAL Nose Tackle because Hoffman, Oshinowo, Fisk, Washington, Parker and Kelly all SUCKED. Which one of those guys is still employed in this league? There's the APEX of our 3-4 and as much as I love Rogers - he's not built for endurance so he's only able to work on oxygen debt for 50% of the reps.

 

Now if you can point out 1 LBer on this team that could start anywhere else in our division TODAY - run it!

 

Like I said, Miami was 1-15 last year and all of a sudden EXCUSES aren't an option this year. That's called CHARACTER and you BETTER GMs include that in their personnel decisions. All we do here is EXCUSE Phil Savage from accountability and make stupid accusations that we're way more talented than we were when we made the playoffs. That being the case, why were we in the playoffs if the talent sucked and the coaching sucked????? I'm all ears for that one. Butch's problem was getting too much power and working around the porcelain pillars Policy propped the franchise up on. Did any utter 1 complaint about Policy? Course not!

 

Winslow is NOT the talent he was pre-draft. Pay attention to the flags for pushing off because 3 knee surgeries and staff infections later - all he has left are his hands. When the QB has accuracy problems like DA - he's rendered worthless. He also doesn't have the lower torso power to block/seal the edge like Heiden. Now, he's becoming a DIVA like Edwards. When your number of DIVAS increase - the play coach and nice guy stuff isn't what this team needs to straighten out character.

 

I keep hearing Savage is spoiling us with talent but the ONLY 2 fulltime guys on our team that could start for other teams are Thomas & Rogers. We have 3 STs guys that could do so as well: Cribbs, Dawson and Pontbriand. Otherwise, I'm looking at a bad cast of coaches with a defense scared to hit people and an offense that looks like a Polish Fire drill.

 

I've seen this franchise when it had talent AND character. Sipe, Byner, Matthews, Mike Johnson, Cody Reisen, Doug Dieken, Kevin Mack, Webster Slaughter, Frank Minnifield, Thane Gash, Hanford Dixon, Reggie Rucker, Bernie Kosar, Ozzie Newsome, Dan Fike. THAT is character WITH talent. This ain't even close!

- Tom F.

[rich4eagle]

This is more of a hypothetical devils advocate sort of argument.

 

Successful coaches tend to have a LOT more control than RAC does. They dont tend to give up personnel decisions of drafts completely over to the GM.

 

Savage had that power struggle fight with I cant remember his name initially and won.

 

Savage NOT RAC fired Carthon and probably chose Chud and Carthon with Rac giving his assent. (this is obviously conjecture)

 

RAC in order to get his first coaching job probably agreed to a lot less control than most head coaches and specifically successful ones.

 

Somone other than RAC made the decision for playing Quinn which that probably means savage in the manner they did.

 

Lerner is a hands off owner and gave Savage the keys to the kingdom maybe he needs to be the personnel operations president and not the GM.

 

I am not defending Carthon or RAC/Tucker fromt he Top down we are flawed and that starts with Savage. Looking at patterns of successful coaches and management shows a strong trend that coaches have a whole lot more say over player personnel and firing and hiring assistants.

 

This is not a BQ vs DA debate. This is a hypothetical possibility. I am not defending RAC and some of his choices in clock managment and other things I am just pointing out that maybe we really dont know what RAC would or would not do as a true head coach because Savage is to controlling as a GM.

 

Indeed Phil SEWAGE is the main problem and Collins made that clear............and so it is............here in the main problem a total fawiking loser as G M

[Guest Masters]

Savage gave Andra Davis a raise. The SAME Andra Davis that Jamal Lewis ran through for 500 yards in 2 outings. The SAD truth is Lewis didn't play in either 4th quarter or he might have dialed up 700 yards in the 2 outings.

 

He also gave him a pay cut and voided the remaining years on that same contract this offseason.

 

I keep hearing Savage is spoiling us with talent but the ONLY 2 fulltime guys on our team that could start for other teams are Thomas & Rogers. We have 3 STs guys that could do so as well: Cribbs, Dawson and Pontbriand. Otherwise, I'm looking at a bad cast of coaches with a defense scared to hit people and an offense that looks like a Polish Fire drill.

 

That is a stretch. Steinbach would be starting, Wright, Jones, Winslow, Edwards, Fraley, Lewis, and Vickers all would be starting for sure on any other NFL team.

 

[Solon16]

Indeed Phil SEWAGE is the main problem and Collins made that clear............and so it is............here in the main problem a total fawiking loser as G M

 

 

I wish you could have heard Bill Polian on the NFL network on the talent of the Cleveland Browns.....flies in the face of everything you say Rich...I respect BP's opinion.

 

[Guest Ghoolie]

Lummy is dead on.

 

Shit rolls down hill. Lerner's Father was shit, and Randy is Shit. Is anyone surprised that we have Sewage and Crennel and GREAT players like Jam-old-man Lewis and McGimpest? Cripples like Gimpslow and Hall OF Shit players like Edwards?

 

I think it is amazing that this team has 4 wins so far.

 

For all I care Lerner could move this team. It isn't the Browns any way. You know it, and I know it.

[Guest Masters]

I wish you could have heard Bill Polian on the NFL network on the talent of the Cleveland Browns.....flies in the face of everything you say Rich...I respect BP's opinion.

 

Polian is a coffee fetcher and knows nothing....lol. Wish I still had satellite for NFL network. I'll have to see if it is online.

 

You are right, BP knows his stuff. Talent is not the issue in CLE. Coaching is.

[rich4eagle]

I wish you could have heard Bill Polian on the NFL network on the talent of the Cleveland Browns.....flies in the face of everything you say Rich...I respect BP's opinion.

 

Solon you are a good football guy and likely would be much better GM than Sewage. If we had drafted some of the guys you wanted the Browns would be a better team than they are now. If they had drafted the guys I wanted they would be the best team in the AFC. What do you expect Bill Polian a great GM to say about Sewage. That he is is odorific? Heck no .......he is going to say he has done a good job. It helps Indy get an easy win every two years against the Browns. Professional courtesy it is called! Better licking your chops and loving the ability to wockersnock the team whenever they play.

 

Hopefully, you will come around to my view on Sewage after the Browns have seven losing seasons in nine years under his Stearage!

 

I give up on Masters...he will never be objective......... he is still defending Sewages keeping Willie Green and Cutch getting Andruzzi and FAT Ted and Baxter. The worst the dumping Henry and Crocker and Boden and Stewart and Lehan to build that awesome secondary we have!.........not to mention giving one and two pick for Quinn and NOT drafting Peterson!...........even now the Edwards pick does not look so good..but we got one dimensional Wimbley which I so kindly pointed out two years ago when you both said he was the next coming of Lawrence Taylor

[hammertime]

Solon you are a good football guy and likely would be much better GM than Sewage. If we had drafted some of the guys you wanted the Browns would be a better team than they are now. If they had drafted the guys I wanted they would be the best team in the AFC. What do you expect Bill Polian a great GM to say about Sewage. That he is is odorific? Heck no .......he is going to say he has done a good job. It helps Indy get an easy win every two years against the Browns. Professional courtesy it is called! Better licking your chops and loving the ability to wockersnock the team whenever they play.

 

Hopefully, you will come around to my view on Sewage after the Browns have seven losing seasons in nine years under his Stearage!

 

I give up on Masters...he will never be objective......... he is still defending Sewages keeping Willie Green and Cutch getting Andruzzi and FAT Ted and Baxter. The worst the dumping Henry and Crocker and Boden and Stewart and Lehan to build that awesome secondary we have!.........not to mention giving one and two pick for Quinn and NOT drafting Peterson!...........even now the Edwards pick does not look so good..but we got one dimensional Wimbley which I so kindly pointed out two years ago when you both said he was the next coming of Lawrence Taylor

 

Rich that was said so eloquently, we need to accept that Lerner is the owner and then start removing and replacing the peices right after that. Who are the current GM's worth looking at? Is there a real football guy out there to assist Lerner in making football decisions? It is obvious that Lerner would benefit from this.

[Guest Masters]

I give up on Masters...he will never be objective......... he is still defending Sewages keeping Willie Green and Cutch getting Andruzzi and FAT Ted and Baxter. The worst the dumping Henry and Crocker and Boden and Stewart and Lehan to build that awesome secondary we have!.........not to mention giving one and two pick for Quinn and NOT drafting Peterson!...........even now the Edwards pick does not look so good..but we got one dimensional Wimbley which I so kindly pointed out two years ago when you both said he was the next coming of Lawrence Taylor

 

You mean like you are still upset Savage didn't get P. Bowlware, trade away his draft for Troy Smith, and draft Mo Clarrett?

 

Green, kept for one year and of course you gave him a shot under a new coach.

 

I never defended or complained about Cutch. He was a body and needed.

 

Andruzzi played well for one year. He was a stop gap (and likely someone RAC asked for)

 

Ted was a risk and another probably asked for by RAC. Who else was floating out there as a proven NT at the time?

 

Henry? You mean the guy who said he walked because of how Davis treated him and Savage did first try to sign? Yeah, how you like to leave that out. This is th same Henry who gets burned each week at least once and DAL went out and got Pacman to replace.

 

I'll take Shaun Rogers over Boden any day of the week.

 

Nothing wrong with that move to jump up and get Quinn. Hell, he followed your belief Rich.

 

I will take Thomas any day too over Peterson. Because 5 years from now, Thomas is far more likely to be playing at the same high level, while AD is reduced to what LT and other great backs turn into after 6 years in the NFL.

 

And PA-LEASE, no one said Wimbley was the next coming of Taylor. Lack of other moves is a lack of coaching. Maybe they should have taken the guy you prefered for that roll, Lawson. How is he doing again?

 

Talk about lack of abjectivity........Tell me again how Saban and Nolan will turn around MIA and SF faster than Savage in CLE, will ya?

 

As to Polian, he didn't comment on Savage, he commented on the talent level on CLE. So he could have easily said CLE was behind on or lacking talent.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

Polian is a coffee fetcher and knows nothing....lol. Wish I still had satellite for NFL network. I'll have to see if it is online.

 

You are right, BP knows his stuff. Talent is not the issue in CLE. Coaching is.

 

I couldn't agree more................Polian may be the best in the business and coaching is the issue.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

You mean like you are still upset Savage didn't get P. Bowlware, trade away his draft for Troy Smith, and draft Mo Clarrett?

 

Green, kept for one year and of course you gave him a shot under a new coach.

 

I never defended or complained about Cutch. He was a body and needed.

 

Andruzzi played well for one year. He was a stop gap (and likely someone RAC asked for)

 

Ted was a risk and another probably asked for by RAC. Who else was floating out there as a proven NT at the time?

 

Henry? You mean the guy who said he walked because of how Davis treated him and Savage did first try to sign? Yeah, how you like to leave that out. This is th same Henry who gets burned each week at least once and DAL went out and got Pacman to replace.

 

I'll take Shaun Rogers over Boden any day of the week.

 

Nothing wrong with that move to jump up and get Quinn. Hell, he followed your belief Rich.

 

I will take Thomas any day too over Peterson. Because 5 years from now, Thomas is far more likely to be playing at the same high level, while AD is reduced to what LT and other great backs turn into after 6 years in the NFL.

 

And PA-LEASE, no one said Wimbley was the next coming of Taylor. Lack of other moves is a lack of coaching. Maybe they should have taken the guy you prefered for that roll, Lawson. How is he doing again?

 

Talk about lack of abjectivity........Tell me again how Saban and Nolan will turn around MIA and SF faster than Savage in CLE, will ya?

 

As to Polian, he didn't comment on Savage, he commented on the talent level on CLE. So he could have easily said CLE was behind on or lacking talent.

 

Maybe rich is still mad at Savage for not trading up and picking Alex Smith.