Ghoolie Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 Well, look man, I am Happy that you guys are happy. Finally, this horseshit debate, of which you are all on the wrong side of the argument is going to be resolved. YOu are all saying that finally we have the OL we need. So, if as you say the OL is so important, our shit QBs will magnificently turn into winners, we will have a potent offense and win a lot of games. However, as you are going to see, the Browns 2017 offense will be worse than the 2016 version and this OL will look horrendous. No five men, not the greatest HOF fatasses of all time can make a difference in this horseshit team. No QB, WRs, TEs and a thin RB corps guarantee another year of dink and dump offense. Either way, the debate over this OL bullshit will be resolved. Just don't come back here after 2- 14 +/- 1 win, I don't want to fucking hear..... The OL needs fixed, it just was not the O line we thought. You got the fucking line you want. You got black Tarkenton. If I am wrong, I'll eat corw. If you are wrong, you can eat your fatass OL talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 I'll eat crow, pie, cake, 3 cheeseburgers, 1 large pizza, full rack of ribs, box of cookies, family size bag of Ruffles, 32 wings, gallon of ice cream, a dozen tacos, whatever is left on the plate of whoever I eat with, 6-pack of Coke, box of Ding Dongs, 6 foot sub and a salad. Fixed it for ya ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 So, if as you say the OL is so important, our shit QBs will magnificently turn into winners, we will have a potent offense and win a lot of games. Who said that? No, it won't turn hamburg into steak. (skill players) If we show that we can't threaten DB's then they'll get the box loaded and there will be too many to block yes. But that's no reason not to add qualified players to the OL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 However, as you are going to see, the Browns 2017 offense will be worse than the 2016 version and this OL will look horrendous. guarantee another year of dink and dump offense. Dink & Dump even gets the ball out of Brady's hands quickly..Our so called dink & doink air raid offense still got browns sacked 66 times leading the league by 17 sacks..Aauull! Aauull! Crow-lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 Fixed it for ya ^ I enjoyed that...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 This o line talk before TC has even begun is insanely stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibleedbrown Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 This o line talk before TC has even begun is insanely stupid. On a football chat board no less! What are these people thinking?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 On a football chat board no less! What are these people thinking?!? Talking about the o line is one thing, proclamations of aptitude is sonething different. Esprcially since pff tells us every year how awesome our o line is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 Same with proclamations of ineptitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 Well...when you lead the league in getting your QB squished, ineptitude seems to be the logical answer..... Cleveland gave up 66 sacks and 140 addl QB hits (thats 206 hits)....the second WORST team came in at 49 & 95..... Compare this with Oakland at 18 and 41.....for 59 total hits.... qualifier....I do understand our QB's dont get the ball out.....and our WR's dont get open.....but I DID watch them play and the OL did not do their jobs well either.....and CERTAINLY did not do anything to earn #2 in the league(which PFF was professing last season too, iirc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg31 Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 Shit like this makes me laugh, I remember jus a few short years ago, and I mean recent, the same jackasses had our OL as "could be best in the NFL" so fuck their analysis until we see them play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 Love these preseason ranking before a single down of football has been played. Utterly worthless till we see the first primary edge rusher greenlighted into kesslers nuts when we can then confirm PFF is still handing out baggies of coke to its analysts LMAO! Coke would mean they're awake though. The good news is we upgraded our Center position every single time we replaced Erving last year so this wasn't a tough thing to improve. That said, GB's oline looked like it gelled much better after Tretter got hurt last year. Maybe that sheer coincidence - maybe it wasn't. I really thought Austin Reiter looked like a huge improvement to Erving especially considering a lot of his assignment was a man named Suh. Nonetheless, I think we have a much stronger competition for the starting job. Money commitment may favor Tretter at first; but he who comes off injury best may have the final say in this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoolie Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 Well...when you lead the league in getting your QB squished, ineptitude seems to be the logical answer..... Cleveland gave up 66 sacks and 140 addl QB hits (thats 206 hits)....the second WORST team came in at 49 & 95..... Compare this with Oakland at 18 and 41.....for 59 total hits.... qualifier....I do understand our QB's dont get the ball out.....and our WR's dont get open.....but I DID watch them play and the OL did not do their jobs well either.....and CERTAINLY did not do anything to earn #2 in the league(which PFF was professing last season too, iirc) Mud, I am of the conviction that not getting the ball out and having WR that don't only not get open, but that don't threaten a D, brings extra pressure on an OL. I believe it allows the D not to bite on play fakes and camp out a bit closer to the LOS, and more importantly, react and commit quicker to activity near the LOS. Now, to the onlooker, for sure missed blocks indicate lousy OL play. But I don't at all, not for one minute buy into the explanation that it has to do with the talent of the lineman. Football is a game of centimeters, of not split second reactions, but split fraction of a second reactions. People tend to analyze football strictly by analytical means. I understand this because it allows us something to grab on to, a way to feel like we can manage talent and the game. However, human behavior and performance cannot be predicted by analytical data. Yes, a guy who runs a 4.4 second 40 is much more likely to make the NFL than a guy who runs it in 7 seconds. But at the pro level? 4.4 versus 4.3? Unless they award points for racing, analytics is meaningless. It is no secret that men can do amazing things. When driven by emotion, the chemicals of adrenaline and endorphin boost physical performance far, far above what someone does in an analytical trial. How else can you explain cement footed Bernie Kosar shredding defenses to look like swiss cheese? Sorry, man, but it just defies logic that the physical abilities between OL men are so vast that the analytics can pick the better ones. You noted our QBs hold the ball too long and our WR threaten nobody, Let me ask you, do you not admit that our OL would also know that? Put yourself in the shoes of a Browns OL. How energized are you going to be knowing in the back of your mind that even if you give the QB 4 seconds, he is probably going to get pasted any way? Now, many here will say, "bullshit, they get paid millions to do their job". But that doesn't hold any water. Money has absolutely no effect on this. If it did, money surely would keep Josh from his toke troubles. It surely would keep players out of trouble. Physical talent in the NFL is abundant. Like cherries on a tree. What makes one player different from another are the human elements. Bill Belichik turns more men into players not because of analytics, but because of the human elements. Every year is full of expectations and surprises. This year will, to me, have one added enjoyment. Once and for all it will settle the argument I fuel; Is it the OL or is it the QB. Sure, they both have to contribute. However, my feeling is the total lack of skill at QB, WR, TE and to a lesser extent RB ( I really like Crowell) is going to deliver the same dump and dink offense, and the same slaughterhouse for our QBs that we saw last year. Can Kizer change that? I don't believe so. However, for sure Kessler, Ass-oiler and the rest cannot. If we want to win, the dice need to be rolled on Kizer. If it turns out he is dynamic, exciting and explosive, and I hope he is, the OL will have a hero, something to be excited about. But dude, an OL-man is human. Who the hell is going to block with emotion when you have Kessler throwing the ball? Did he even make one single. WOW HOLY SHIT play? Nobody is going to black for 16 games with a guy like that running the show, and 8 men in the box all year long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 ..but I DID watch them play and the OL did not do their jobs well either.....and CERTAINLY did not do anything to earn #2 in the league(which PFF was professing last season too, iirc) I think you may be correct about our high, 2016 ranking... pre-season. Then Bito went down and Erving never showed. By season's end we were #15-ish, IIRC. All PFF can do is to add their evals of individual OL starters. The true sum of the parts may vary (ever heard that before?), but there's no better way to project an OL's performance, especially when one or more of its parts have changed. For my part I take it as it is... a list of flawed projections, but one in which I'm much happier being near the top than the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 Same with proclamations of ineptitude Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 For my part I take it as it is... a list of flawed projections, but one in which I'm much happier being near the top than the bottom. Maybe this just my jaded/cynical fuck showing.....but it "seems" as if theres a distinct inverse relationship between pff and our actual o line play. Like the better they say we are the worse it "seems" on sundays. Hence my constant agitation with pff. Ill watch our qb limp off the field holding his ribs and sure enough by wed im seeing posts here quoting the new pff rankings that have 5 sure fire first ballot lineman on the field for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 I understand the cynicism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 If we want to win, the dice need to be rolled on Kizer. If it turns out he is dynamic, exciting and explosive, and I hope he is, the OL will have a hero, something to be excited about. I've said that Kizer came to a good place 'for him'. The path to the starting QB job is not blocked by an entrenched starter. It's an up for grabs job. Looking at the 2015 College QB ratings, Kizer was #12 while Kessler was #44. Here's a link to the game stats when they played against each other: http://www.espn.com/college-football/game?gameId=400757053 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibleedbrown Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 Mud, I am of the conviction that not getting the ball out and having WR that don't only not get open, but that don't threaten a D, brings extra pressure on an OL. I believe it allows the D not to bite on play fakes and camp out a bit closer to the LOS, and more importantly, react and commit quicker to activity near the LOS. Now, to the onlooker, for sure missed blocks indicate lousy OL play. But I don't at all, not for one minute buy into the explanation that it has to do with the talent of the lineman. Football is a game of centimeters, of not split second reactions, but split fraction of a second reactions. People tend to analyze football strictly by analytical means. I understand this because it allows us something to grab on to, a way to feel like we can manage talent and the game. However, human behavior and performance cannot be predicted by analytical data. Yes, a guy who runs a 4.4 second 40 is much more likely to make the NFL than a guy who runs it in 7 seconds. But at the pro level? 4.4 versus 4.3? Unless they award points for racing, analytics is meaningless. It is no secret that men can do amazing things. When driven by emotion, the chemicals of adrenaline and endorphin boost physical performance far, far above what someone does in an analytical trial. How else can you explain cement footed Bernie Kosar shredding defenses to look like swiss cheese? Sorry, man, but it just defies logic that the physical abilities between OL men are so vast that the analytics can pick the better ones. You noted our QBs hold the ball too long and our WR threaten nobody, Let me ask you, do you not admit that our OL would also know that? Put yourself in the shoes of a Browns OL. How energized are you going to be knowing in the back of your mind that even if you give the QB 4 seconds, he is probably going to get pasted any way? Now, many here will say, "bullshit, they get paid millions to do their job". But that doesn't hold any water. Money has absolutely no effect on this. If it did, money surely would keep Josh from his toke troubles. It surely would keep players out of trouble. Physical talent in the NFL is abundant. Like cherries on a tree. What makes one player different from another are the human elements. Bill Belichik turns more men into players not because of analytics, but because of the human elements. Every year is full of expectations and surprises. This year will, to me, have one added enjoyment. Once and for all it will settle the argument I fuel; Is it the OL or is it the QB. Sure, they both have to contribute. However, my feeling is the total lack of skill at QB, WR, TE and to a lesser extent RB ( I really like Crowell) is going to deliver the same dump and dink offense, and the same slaughterhouse for our QBs that we saw last year. Can Kizer change that? I don't believe so. However, for sure Kessler, Ass-oiler and the rest cannot. If we want to win, the dice need to be rolled on Kizer. If it turns out he is dynamic, exciting and explosive, and I hope he is, the OL will have a hero, something to be excited about. But dude, an OL-man is human. Who the hell is going to block with emotion when you have Kessler throwing the ball? Did he even make one single. WOW HOLY SHIT play? Nobody is going to black for 16 games with a guy like that running the show, and 8 men in the box all year long. Well said. Kind of a neat juxtaposition to OL play and QB play. I would say that roughly 80% of a football team's job is to maul people. ie the entire defense and the OL and everyone else on the offense who isn't handling a ball during a play. Mauling people, that takes physicality, fire, and attitude. The more fired up the better. But to be a successful QB you gotta be calmer than that. It does you no good to go out there with your amp turned to 11. So the chemistry, between the two groups on different emotional planes, that's the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 its the o lines job to block for their qb, even if he sucks. They graded on their own pass protection, not on the qb's performance. That's what they get paid millions of dollars for. Anyone that's played football remembers that when the ball is hiked its about the guy infront of you. It's war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 its the o lines job to block for their qb, even if he sucks. They graded on their own pass protection, not on the qb's performance. That's what they get paid millions of dollars for. Anyone that's played football remembers that when the ball is hiked its about the guy infront of you. It's war. While true, if the game hasn't slowed down for an inexperienced QB dealing with the complexities of defensive alignments/schemes - the length of time to protect the QB can get unreasonable. In quite a few highlights I've seen, a lot of TD passes are thrown about a tenth of a second before the QB gets hit. Before PFF came along to praise Mitchell Schwartz's play at RT and increase people's awareness of his overall talent - there were times significant portions of our fan base in cyberspace used to hurry to blame him for pass pro blunders. They did so without looking at how long it was talking a guy like Weeden or McCoy to get rid of the ball while he had the task of blocking Carlos Dunlap one on one outside. Last year, especially in the Miami game - Pazstor had to block Cameron Wake while we had a rookie QB counting on 2 first year starters at WR (Pryor & Louis) to make all the right reads and adjustments to defensive schemes/leverages. In that game, our RT gave up a sack to Wake and had some costly penalties when some of those plays our rookie QB had enough time to get rid of the ball. But, only Paz got received 100% credit for the sack/penalties... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 Anyone that's played football remembers that when the ball is hiked its about the guy infront of you. It's war. ... and then some asshole DC went and invented the "twist"... and it was off to the races. Before PFF came along to praise Mitchell Schwartz's play at RT and increase people's awareness of his overall talent - there were times significant portions of our fan base in cyberspace used to hurry to blame him for pass pro blunders. They did so without looking at how long it was talking a guy like Weeden or McCoy to get rid of the ball while he had the task of blocking Carlos Dunlap one on one outside. Early in his career Mitch had ample turnstile moments in PassPro, but as his tech developed... ultimately ending up to where he was close to a mirror image of Joe... his grades improved. Add that in run blocking we moved from primarily ZBS, in which Mitch struggled, to power schemes, in which he was at least "average", and the foundation for his "rise" was complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 ... and then some asshole DC went and invented the "twist"... and it was off to the races. . ????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 Oh and ive seen mitchell scwartz get our qb hit befire the back foot had time to touch on a standardmedium dropback. I dont wanna hear about how our qb's hold the ball for 10 minutes. If you watch the plays you see our o line get beat by the defenders first move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 The problem with these rankings is one break down in the OL means the whole is ineffective and that is the Browns problem year after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg31 Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 Oh and ive seen mitchell scwartz get our qb hit befire the back foot had time to touch on a standardmedium dropback. I dont wanna hear about how our qb's hold the ball for 10 minutes. If you watch the plays you see our o line get beat by the defenders first move all of our QB's were in the bottom for timed releases according to today PD so it's definitely not our imagination that they hold the ball too damn long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 all of our QB's were in the bottom for timed releases according to today PD so it's definitely not our imagination that they hold the ball too damn long. I'm not sure how PD does their measurement but there can be many variables that could affect the time. Unless you are measuring times on completed passes, for specific yardages, on specific routes, to specific receivers I don't see much merit in a general time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 all of our QB's were in the bottom for timed releases according to today PD so it's definitely not our imagination that they hold the ball too damn long. What do you mean by "the bottom"? The bottom of what? And where do you even find information like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 I'm not sure how PD does their measurement but there can be many variables that could affect the time. Unless you are measuring times on completed passes, for specific yardages, on specific routes, to specific receivers I don't see much merit in a general time. Certainly is a macro metric, but the world needs those, too... I just read somewhere (maybe Pluto's column) that our QB trio of Kess, McC and RG were all in the bottom eight for the league for average release time. As different as these three were from each other it certainly suggests to me a systemic problem or problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Certainly is a macro metric, but the world needs those, too... I just read somewhere (maybe Pluto's column) that our QB trio of Kess, McC and RG were all in the bottom eight for the league for average release time. As different as these three were from each other it certainly suggests to me a systemic problem or problems. How do they measure "release time"? Seconds that go by from the snap till the ball is released? Or "windup" time? How long it takes a QB to go through the motion of releasing a pass? On the latter I wonder how long that would have been for a Dan Marino pass to take....vs. say a Tim Tebow pass (who had an extraordinarily long windup if I recall). Seems that other factors would go into it if it were the former: line protection, ability of the receivers to get open, tendency of the QB to "scramble". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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