4-year deal Browns sign LB Jamie Collins

[gftChris]

I can't see us taking Foster either tbh, especially if there's either of Adams or Hooker there. With Kirskey Collins and Davis (along with Schobert and whoever else as depth) I don't see linebacker as a desperate need, and on this team that's a bloody miracle. We take Garrett, go with that DL (Garrett - Shelton - Bryant - Ogbah) then we're in good shape for the front seven, but in desperate need of help at safety, corner, center and QB. Reuben Foster is a luxury pick.

[ballpeen]

I don't know if Collins is a game-changer... But I think this contract is. He's a top-end player who just signed a contract with this team that he could have got anywhere else.

 

I fucking love it.

Add Myles Garrett and Collins becomes a big game changer. It's hard to be a impact pass rusher when you are the only one with some impact.

[jiggins7919]

Collins is a beast, and he's exactly the kind of guy I want on our team. He looked "different" to me out there. He was fast, and when he got to the ball, he got there with bad intentions. He's young, fast, strong, and nasty. He's the kind of guy you build a team around, and you add a guy like Garrett to the mix? I think we could be on to something.

 

Most importantly, this contract signifies a "changing of the guard." We're THROUGH letting talent walk, and we're DONE with our "tear down." It's time to start building, and Collins is essentially the first block.

[BrownsKidd]

He better produce... Anyone that doesn't get it in NE and is shown the door will always be suspect until you prove it on the field.

[Westside Steve]

Ditto.

 

Now can we pay for an established veteran Center?

WSS

[gftChris]

He better produce... Anyone that doesn't get it in NE and is shown the door will always be suspect until you prove it on the field.

The 'Bill Belichick never makes mistakes' logic - does it also apply to giving us a fifth round pick for Mingo with a year left on his contract?

[hx214]

He better produce... Anyone that doesn't get it in NE and is shown the door will always be suspect until you prove it on the field.

 

Bill offered up what the Pats could afford and he wanted to make more, so he got some value before he walked.

 

I'm not buying that he got rid of him because he didn't think he could play or didn't like him.

 

The sad part is that the Pats can afford to lose a guy like him mid season and still make it to the show.

[The Gipper]

 

If you agree his skills are MLB, that's the point. Thanks for agreeing with me!

 

As the link I posted showed using many clips to analyze Collins' performance, and as you would have seen had you actually clicked on it, Horton inaccurately playing Collins out of position doesn't make Collins an OLB. And ESPN dutifully reporting Horton's choice also doesn't make Collins an OLB.

 

When he plays MLB he's worth the contract he just signed. When he plays OLB he's Schobert with slightly more speed.. he can't set an edge, and has one move as a pass rusher.

Well, yes, I agreed with you on what his skill set is....and you may be right that he is only worth what he is being paid if he plays MLB But you are assuming (making an ass of u and me) based on some film clip that putting him at MLB is what the Browns are going to do.

They do NOT have him slotted there. That may have been one of Horton's mistakes, but based on the personell with both Kirksey and Davis also in the middle, Collins may not in fact play there. He may be seen as more flexible than the other two and more capable of shifting outside...and that may be what they do with him.

[The Gipper]

I can't see us taking Foster either tbh, especially if there's either of Adams or Hooker there. With Kirskey Collins and Davis (along with Schobert and whoever else as depth) I don't see linebacker as a desperate need, and on this team that's a bloody miracle. We take Garrett, go with that DL (Garrett - Shelton - Bryant - Ogbah) then we're in good shape for the front seven, but in desperate need of help at safety, corner, center and QB. Reuben Foster is a luxury pick.

Really? Well, you just named 3 ILBs in Kirksey/Collins/Davis Though, as I said, Collins it looks like will be asked to move outside, but, if he isn't, who are the OLBs? Schobert and Orchard?

[The Gipper]

Ditto.

 

Now can we pay for an established veteran Center?

WSS

Sure. Who do you have in mind? One guy comes to my mind:

 

Stefen Wisniewski, C/G, Eagles. Age: 28.

Stefen Wisniewski has been a very good backup for the Eagles, as he performed very well when asked this past season. Wisniewski is too good to remain a reserve, as he can be a somewhat decent starter at guard or center for someone else.

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2017C.php#qO0hXrExtfSgtHHj.99

[Tour2ma]

Belichick couldn't afford to pay Collins so he traded him for whatever he could get. They need to resign Hightower, Butler, Cannon, Bennett, and Sheard. It was a business decision and Belichick is on record as saying so.

 

I will be shocked if 4 of the 5 you list are resigned... surprised if 3 are...

 

There's so much interchangeability of pieces in NE it's head-spinning. Even "essential" pieces like Collins and Jones and Revis and Seymore are sent packing... and the D rolls on with the "Who's Who" player replaced by "Who?"

 

Thinking outside the box regarding the LB spot..

 

What if Collins is our starting ILB? So we have LB - Collins - Kirksey, because Davis is really too slow for the pass and inconsistently remembers how to stop the run..

 

I'm also proposing that the #12 be left for either QB or DB..

 

So perhaps that other LB slot gets filled in the second round with Tim Williams or any from the group of Charles Harris / Solomon Thomas / TJ Watt / Jarrad Davis who fall.

 

With Collins in the middle you can flank him with Orchard and Kirksey. Orchard lacks the versatility of the other two, but you can always trot him off the field when you go nickel. And it opens the #12 for a FS possibility not named Hooker... and there is another... but CB would seem to me to be in the running as well.

 

I simply want impact out of our front seven... Garrett adds the most at DE in a 4-3... Foster adds the most to LBs.

 

You, your article, keep saying Collins can't stack, but I saw him stack this past season as a 3-4 OLB. Others can, and I am sure will, correct me if I am wrong, but as a 4-3 OLB the same emphasis on edge setting is not there. More of it falls to the DE.

 

The 4-3 OLB becomes the scraping, pursuing, finisher... the same role you describe Collins as excelling at working inside... a role I associate even more with a 3-4 ILB than a 4-3 MLB, who often has to defeat an OG or FB block on his way to a tackle. Think of it as "setting the middle".

 

Pass rush? Setting aside the discussion of developing techniques associated with a position Collins does not have a lot of experience playing at the Pro level... 3-4 OLBs who are designated rushers most often have to defeat an OT one-on-one, 4-3 OLBs more often end up disguising, timing, stunting and looping blitzes... again much like the ILB skills you, your article, place in his skill set.

 

The above are the reasons I still see OLB possibilities for Jamie... plus it gives me a route to Foster...

 

Good exchange...

 

That's all well and good, except I can't think of any example if a team rebuilding like we are clearly passing on players of need at gigantic holes simply to create depth at another position.

 

I also see Collins as an ILB moving forward, but that's just me.

 

My point is that I just don't see the Foster pick happening for us and I'm growing more worried that the Garrett pick may not happen either. It's another year that we can move back and acquire capital, which is kind of upsetting.

 

EDIT: I have changed my mind on this completely. Will reference in another post.

 

I look forward to the new take (as well as feedback on my above takes on 3-4/4-3 LB responsibilities)... as for your above post...

 

If Collins was signed with the MLB slot firmly in mind, then sure, Foster is superfluous, but I still see OLB possibilities I explored with Unsym...

[Westside Steve]

Sure. Who do you have in mind? One guy comes to my mind:

 

Stefen Wisniewski, C/G, Eagles. Age: 28.

Stefen Wisniewski has been a very good backup for the Eagles, as he performed very well when asked this past season. Wisniewski is too good to remain a reserve, as he can be a somewhat decent starter at guard or center for someone else.

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2017C.php#qO0hXrExtfSgtHHj.99

Find with me. I prefer a free-agent starter though.

WSS

[The Gipper]

With Collins in the middle you can flank him with Orchard and Kirksey. Orchard lacks the versatility of the other two, but you can always trot him off the field when you go nickel.

 

Isn't Kirksey pretty much a MLB? This past year, our DC saw Collins as the guy with the flexibility to go outside.

The Browns talent really is more suited to the 3-4 than the 4-3. In essence, we have 3 pretty solid MLBs with Kirksey/Davis/Collins....and to date some very questionable OLBs with Schobert/Orchard.

It is possible that the likes of Zach Cunningham, Takkarist McKinley, or Tim Williams....actual OLBs, may be targets in this draft by the Browns.

Or maybe there is a FA out there?

OLB FAs....28 or younger listed by Spotrac:

Nick Perry

Akeem Ayers

Jarvis Jones

Barkevious Mingo!!!

Melvin Ingram

Datone Jones

among others.

[The Gipper]

Find with me. I prefer a free-agent starter though.

WSS

Wisniewski is a guy a lot of us talked about getting last when we knew we were losing Mack.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Well, yes, I agreed with you on what his skill set is....and you may be right that he is only worth what he is being paid if he plays MLB But you are assuming (making an ass of u and me) based on some film clip that putting him at MLB is what the Browns are going to do.

They do NOT have him slotted there. That may have been one of Horton's mistakes, but based on the personell with both Kirksey and Davis also in the middle, Collins may not in fact play there. He may be seen as more flexible than the other two and more capable of shifting outside...and that may be what they do with him.

 

They currently don't have anybody slotted anywhere publicly, unless you've been privy to the meetings between Williams and Hue since the hire.

 

I was a little worried about how the Collins re-signing would guide our acquisitions moving forward. Tour broke it down a bit and it helped, now here's where I currently stand on the subject (see link at bottom of the post about how I arrived at this roster) :

 

DE - Ogbah, Nassib, Williams, Orchard

DT - Shelton, Bryant, Meder

SAM - Collins

MLB - Foster, Davis

WLB - Kirksey, Schobert

CB - Haden, Johnson, Taylor

FS - Berry

SS - Adams

 

On paper, this is a pretty talented defensive front seven - I'd say its the most talented one I've seen in Cleveland in a long time.

 

Collins is likely to slot into the SAM backer position in a 3-man LB alignment. While I don't like dropping $12.5mm/year on a 43 SAM backer, Collins is the most apt fit for a SAM backer position due to his athletic ability that allows him to be able to cover as well as take on blocks. The case could be made for him to play MIKE as he's undoubtably the most athletic of our LBers, but I don't think he's necessarily the best candidate for that position solely because he apparently has a freestyling tendency - a quality not welcomed for the MIKE position.

 

A lot of us are shitting ourselves over Garrett - myself included. But honestly, the fact of the matter is that we already have an abundance of talented one-gap edge rushers - Ogbah, Orchard and Nassib are all solid edge rushing ends in a one gap system. Assuming, as Tour said, that we bump D. Bryant inside to a 3-tech DT, that gives us a 4 man front of Ogbah-Bryant-Shelton-Nassib, with Orchard as a rotating DE and Meder as a rotating DT. On paper, we do not have a clear question mark at DE - it's actually one of our deepest positions right now.

 

On the other hand, we have a clear question mark at MIKE. Prior to this post, my gut reaction was that we would not take Foster at #12 solely because we'd be investing a lot of capital into our LB's while having clear needs elsewhere. After some thought, I'm actually more on board with Foster for us than I am for Garrett.

 

We also have many clear question marks at secondary that I'm not even sure what I want us to do. Gut reaction, a centerfielding FS is our most pressing need, while a tweener SS/OLB in the mold of Thomas Davis would be a close second.

 

With that in mind, here's what I do moving forward. Mind you, it's going to be a very unwelcome opinion in a number of ways.

[The Gipper]

So, let me get this right....you want the Browns to draft (after trades), Ruben Foster, Tim Williams and Jamal Adams. And to pick up Eric Berry and Trumaine Johnson as Free Agents.

 

All well/good...on paper.

 

And what about OL and QB.

[Westside Steve]

Wisniewski is a guy a lot of us talked about getting last when we knew we were losing Mack.

I remember.

I still prefer out bidding somebody for a starter that's all.

WSS

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

So, let me get this right....you want the Browns to draft (after trades), Ruben Foster, Tim Williams and Jamal Adams. And to pick up Eric Berry and Trumaine Johnson as Free Agents.

 

All well/good...on paper.

 

And what about OL and QB.

 

Our OL situation isn't as dire as its made out to be. One new starter and returning Bito from injury and its a drastic difference. I think OL is the spot we take some risks with in FA and nab underperforming young players like Warmack, Joeckel or Kalil. Those are similar acquisitions to Collins and RG3 - guys who haven't necessarily played up to their draft potential for [insert reason here].

 

I think this FO realizes that lack of ability isn't always the reason that first round guys bust in the NFL.

[wargograw]

 

Our OL situation isn't as dire as its made out to be. One new starter and returning Bito from injury and its a drastic difference. I think OL is the spot we take some risks with in FA and nab underperforming young players like Warmack, Joeckel or Kalil. Those are similar acquisitions to Collins and RG3 - guys who haven't necessarily played up to their draft potential for [insert reason here].

 

I think this FO realizes that lack of ability isn't always the reason that first round guys bust in the NFL.

Last sentence here is extremely poignant. Cooper was another pickup in that mold. Not sure if I'd say Collins was though.

[The Gipper]

I remember.

I still prefer out bidding somebody for a starter that's all.

WSS

But, who?

 

I have checked. There is not much out there that I can tell. There is no Alex Mack in FA this year. Unless someone is aware of somebody.

[The Gipper]

 

Our OL situation isn't as dire as its made out to be. One new starter and returning Bito from injury and its a drastic difference. I think OL is the spot we take some risks with in FA and nab underperforming young players like Warmack, Joeckel or Kalil. Those are similar acquisitions to Collins and RG3 - guys who haven't necessarily played up to their draft potential for [insert reason here].

 

I think this FO realizes that lack of ability isn't always the reason that first round guys bust in the NFL.

Do any of those guys help at OC? That is our biggest trouble spot. Or do you want to go to like round 3 to grab one.

(and you didn't address QB)

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Do any of those guys help at OC? That is our biggest trouble spot. Or do you want to go to like round 3 to grab one.

(and you didn't address QB)

 

 

I addressed both QB and OL in the link, which leads to a full offseason of moves.

 

This thread wasn't about QB or OL, so I kept the talk about the defense - mainly Collins and where he'll play and how it will affect the defensive fronts.

[Osiris]

But, who?

 

I have checked. There is not much out there that I can tell. There is no Alex Mack in FA this year. Unless someone is aware of somebody.

 

IMO the best solution for center this year is to move Greco there permanently. There are a lot more good guards in free agency this year than centers. Plus Pastor played better at guard for us two seasons ago so I'd rather see him bumped inside and let Coleman and Erving duke it out for the RT spot.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Last sentence here is extremely poignant. Cooper was another pickup in that mold. Not sure if I'd say Collins was though.

 

Eh, he was a second-half second round pick who got shopped for either a third/fourth. Not in the same vein as RG3 or Cooper, but indicative of us buying a guy for less than another team paid for him. I think we'll continue to do that, whether through FA or trades. That's also why I don't see us making a move for a guy like Garropollo or Cousins.

 

Guys like Joeckel, Warmack, Kalil, Gilmore, Claiborne and Hayden fit into the "possible top tier, young, cheap talent with various issues" mold, while guys like Poe and Jeffery fit into the "young and talented but victim of cap/roster problems" mold. Dipping heavily into the former while maybe dabbling in the latter can yield positive results.

[Tour2ma]

Guys like Joeckel, Warmack, Kalil, Gilmore, Claiborne and Hayden fit into the "possible top tier, young, cheap talent with various issues" mold, while guys like Poe and Jeffery fit into the "young and talented but victim of cap/roster problems" mold. Dipping heavily into the former while maybe dabbling in the latter can yield positive results.

 

.. AKA "value" players. You're sounding like Thomas Dimitroff... and hopefully our FO...

 

Not down with all those names, mostly because I think our currently rostered OL will be vastly improved in 2017, but a little insurance would not hurt.

 

Claiborne is an interesting name. After looking like a dud for a couple seasons, his play improved... significantly.

[gftChris]

 

.. AKA "value" players. You're sounding like Thomas Dimitroff... and hopefully our FO...

 

Not down with all those names, mostly because I think our currently rostered OL will be vastly improved in 2017, but a little insurance would not hurt.

 

Claiborne is an interesting name. After looking like a dud for a couple seasons, his play improved... significantly.

I remember reading an article a few days ago about how the browns were building in the mould of the Falcons. I'm not sure there was much substance to it but, you know, it's nice.

 

http://dawgpounddaily.com/2017/01/17/cleveland-browns-building-mold-atlanta-falcons/

[BrownsKidd]

The 'Bill Belichick never makes mistakes' logic - does it also apply to giving us a fifth round pick for Mingo with a year left on his contract?

Didn't say he makes mistakes. He's still human, but he is the type of coach that can make much out of nothing. However, if they don't work out, Belichick doesn't hang on to those that don't cut it. The draft for Belichick isn't as important as it is to us. I'm sure they still go into wanting to get the best asset for the team, but for some reason, NE is always competing and you hear or read about guys coming into NE, not high on anybody's draft board, and yet they fuckin' produce! Why is that....Culture, buy-in and work ethic. If you don't buy-in, forget stayin' in NE. At least from what I see.

[RoyceRolls]

 

I understand. But my point is how, in a super bowl run...he didn't keep him to help his defense win a super bowl.

 

We would pay and lose (to FA) 10 Collins' to have a chance at winning a super bowl. (ok, maybe not 10...)

Belicheck expects to win regardless, and Draft assets are very valuable to keeping his team stocked with talent. He has transcended the championship desperation found on the browns board, and is concerned with sustainable success. That's why he didn't let a valuable asset walk out the door for nothing, that's why he is known for trading down in the Draft. He is more patient than anyone else in the league because he knows his job is safe. Kraft would be strung up like Mussolini if he fired BB.

[Westside Steve]

But, who?

 

I have checked. There is not much out there that I can tell. There is no Alex Mack in FA this year. Unless someone is aware of somebody.

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2017C.php

[The Gipper]

Belicheck expects to win regardless, and Draft assets are very valuable to keeping his team stocked with talent. He has transcended the championship desperation found on the browns board, and is concerned with sustainable success. That's why he didn't let a valuable asset walk out the door for nothing, that's why he is known for trading down in the Draft. He is more patient than anyone else in the league because he knows his job is safe. Kraft would be strung up like Mussolini if he fired BB.

Well, he also knows he has Tom Brady.

I suspect that when TB hangs it up BB may likely do the same, leaving the team in the hands of Josh McDaniel. But McDaniel won't have a Tom Brady QBing his team.

That way, BB can maintain his genius label, and any diminishment in the accomplishments of the Pats could then be laid in McDaniels lap.

And they would diminish.