Soccer Thread

[The Gipper]

Makes perfect sense now. Thanks!

 

 

OK, glad you get it now. Also, here is a nickel's worth of free advice: ditch the futbol and get with it with real football.

[professor_g]

OK, glad you get it now. Also, here is a nickel's worth of free advice: ditch the futbol and get with it with real football.

 

Yeah, the real football rules by a HUGE margin. Football is better than every other sport on the planet, imho.

 

But back in HS I was about 135 lbs-- not exactly football material. (I'm 30 lbs bigger now, but at 40 years old opportunities for football have all but disappeared.) Also, I grew up in California in the 70s and 80s where kids mainly played baseball, soccer, and basketball. I think kids here in Ohio play a lot more football than we did. Then again, Seneca Wallace is from my hometown, Sacramento!

[The Gipper]

Yeah, the real football rules by a HUGE margin. Football is better than every other sport on the planet, imho.

 

But back in HS I was about 135 lbs-- not exactly football material. (I'm 30 lbs bigger now, but at 40 years old opportunities for football have all but disappeared.) Also, I grew up in California in the 70s and 80s where kids mainly played baseball, soccer, and basketball. I think kids here in Ohio play a lot more football than we did. Then again, Seneca Wallace is from my hometown, Sacramento!

 

 

Soccer is good for kids because it gets them running and exercizing. It is not a good spectator sport in my opinion.

However, there is one fairly simple thing they could do to improve it for the American sports audience:

Get rid of the offside rule.

The offside rule is idiocy.

That rule would be like saying that in basketball you HAVE to have a defender between you and the bucket to allow a basket to count.

It would be like saying that a wide receiver would HAVE to make sure that a DB is between him and the goal line before he would be allowed to proceed into the endzone.

Actually, the offside rule would be like requiring TWO defenders be between you and the basket or the goal line in the above situations, because in soccer they have this guy called a "Goalie". WTF is his job supposed to be? Why does he have to be treated like a developly disabled person and always have to be given extra help to do his job?

I mean, when all these damn games end in 0-0 ties because no one can score, what do they do? They have a shootout where it is just the offensive player and the goalie. Why the frak don't they just allow this to happen during the regular action of the game? It would make the regular action more exciting, more goals would probably be scored, fewer low scoring ties would be played, and they wouldn't have to resort to a phony, bastardized version of the game with these "shootouts". Let the shootouts occur during the game itself.

[Thaak]

Soccer is good for kids because it gets them running and exercizing. It is not a good spectator sport in my opinion.

However, there is one fairly simple thing they could do to improve it for the American sports audience:

Get rid of the offside rule.

The offside rule is idiocy.

That rule would be like saying that in basketball you HAVE to have a defender between you and the bucket to allow a basket to count.

It would be like saying that a wide receiver would HAVE to make sure that a DB is between him and the goal line before he would be allowed to proceed into the endzone.

Actually, the offside rule would be like requiring TWO defenders be between you and the basket or the goal line in the above situations, because in soccer they have this guy called a "Goalie". WTF is his job supposed to be? Why does he have to be treated like a developly disabled person and always have to be given extra help to do his job?

I mean, when all these damn games end in 0-0 ties because no one can score, what do they do? They have a shootout where it is just the offensive player and the goalie. Why the frak don't they just allow this to happen during the regular action of the game? It would make the regular action more exciting, more goals would probably be scored, fewer low scoring ties would be played, and they wouldn't have to resort to a phony, bastardized version of the game with these "shootouts". Let the shootouts occur during the game itself.

 

I disagree. To the initiated and educated on things Soccer (Futbol) offsides allows a defense certain strategies that they would otherwise not have. Can you imagine a DB having a strategy that he can run forward at the last moment before the ball is thrown so that the WR would be considered offsides? I know, in American football, it sounds ludicrous. But because Soccer is essentially Hockey on a bigger stage, and without ice or skates, they use similar rules.

[The Gipper]

I disagree. To the initiated and educated on things Soccer (Futbol) offsides allows a defense certain strategies that they would otherwise not have. Can you imagine a DB having a strategy that he can run forward at the last moment before the ball is thrown so that the WR would be considered offsides? I know, in American football, it sounds ludicrous. But because Soccer is essentially Hockey on a bigger stage, and without ice or skates, they use similar rules.

 

A DB CAN run forward at the last moment before the ball is thrown so that a WR could be considered offsides, (or perhaps I misunderstand your scenario).

You know, sports DO open up their rules to allow for more offense.

By your stodgy way of thinking, the following should NEVER have been allowed to have been instituted:

1. The DH

2. The Shot Clock

3. The 3 point shot

4. The 5 yard bump rule

5. The No Head Slap rule

and probably a dozen more if I thought hard enough.

And gee, offsides allows the defense certain strategies they otherwise would not have? So what. Those strategies need to go the way of the Dean Smith 4 Corners offense. That was certainly a defensive stategy. Hold the ball for 6-8 minutes at a time in a game.

Letting these incompetent hitters pitch? Oh, gee, that allows for the double switch and with the DH you wouldn't have that!! BFD.

Besides, perhaps hockey should get rid of the offside rule as well. The same issue applies. WTF is the goalie for? In the words of one famous commentator: what is he, a potted plant?

They have the same idiot shootout thing in hockey too. Why not just have the shootouts happen in the course of the game. Mano a mano. Shooter against goalie. Make it part of the regular course of action.

It is all so absurdly simple.

[VaporTrail]

The offside rule is really necessary in soccer. If it wasn't you'd just have 2 strikers sitting outside the box the whole time waiting for a long ball to come after their defense intercepts it. I play indoor a bunch and hate the fact that cherry pickers get points by doing only that.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

A DB CAN run forward at the last moment before the ball is thrown so that a WR could be considered offsides, (or perhaps I misunderstand your scenario).

You know, sports DO open up their rules to allow for more offense.

By your stodgy way of thinking, the following should NEVER have been allowed to have been instituted:

1. The DH

2. The Shot Clock

3. The 3 point shot

4. The 5 yard bump rule

5. The No Head Slap rule

and probably a dozen more if I thought hard enough.

And gee, offsides allows the defense certain strategies they otherwise would not have? So what. Those strategies need to go the way of the Dean Smith 4 Corners offense. That was certainly a defensive stategy. Hold the ball for 6-8 minutes at a time in a game.

Letting these incompetent hitters pitch? Oh, gee, that allows for the double switch and with the DH you wouldn't have that!! BFD.

Besides, perhaps hockey should get rid of the offside rule as well. The same issue applies. WTF is the goalie for? In the words of one famous commentator: what is he, a potted plant?

They have the same idiot shootout thing in hockey too. Why not just have the shootouts happen in the course of the game. Mano a mano. Shooter against goalie. Make it part of the regular course of action.

It is all so absurdly simple.

 

When can a DB run forward, causing a WR to be offside? And I can't believe you're arguing against offsides. That rule is a necessity in both hockey and soccer. Without it, the sports wouldn't be nearly as fun to participate in or watch. It would be like NBA basketball, all flash and no substance.

 

[The Gipper]

The offside rule is really necessary in soccer. If it wasn't you'd just have 2 strikers sitting outside the box the whole time waiting for a long ball to come after their defense intercepts it. I play indoor a bunch and hate the fact that cherry pickers get points by doing only that.

 

How is it any different in basketball? If you have cherry pickers down at the wrong end, then your defense is weakened and your opponent is much more likely to score on you. I mean, that would be like having a constant power play on against you.

Furthermore, you do have that goalie...or do you really think they are potted plants? And if it is really that bad, leave an extra defender down there to stay with the cherry pickers.

And I know from my days of playing street corner basketball, if you get a constant cherry picker, that cherry picker will eventually really look like a red cherry from the blood running down his nose from a strategic elbow or two.

I mean, was your soccer players coaches too dumb or too wuss to "self-monitor" that situation?

[The Gipper]

When can a DB run forward, causing a WR to be offside? And I can't believe you're arguing against offsides. That rule is a necessity in both hockey and soccer. Without it, the sports wouldn't be nearly as fun to participate in or watch. It would be like NBA basketball, all flash and no substance.

 

You mean, all action, no boredom?

 

Soccer is no fun to watch now (why do you think no one watches it?). I don't know about playing.

 

So, you think a basketball player should not be allowed to score a basket unless there is a defensive player between him and the hoop?

 

I take it that you, too, are in favor of going back to the days of the 4 corners?

 

How about the forward pass in football? Should we go back to the days when the ruled didn't allow the forward pass? Or at least to the days where is was illegal unless you were 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage?

 

Rules change in sports all the time to make them more entertaining, more spectator friendly.

Once upon a time not too long ago, an NFL game that ended in a tie.....ended....in a tie. No OT at all.

Once upon a time there was no such thing as a two point PAT attempt.

Once upon a time a baseball was made so soft the most powerful batter could hit it maybe 250 feet. (dead ball era).

Once upon a time a jump ball was held after every made basket.

 

You are just used to soccer/hockey with the offside rule in place. People were "used to" the above rules as well and didn't want to change them. Someday, they may say: "once upon a time there was this rule called 'offside' which didn't allow a player to approach the net with the ball unless there were at least 2 defensive players in front of him....how foolish does that rule sound now?"

[Thaak]

A DB CAN run forward at the last moment before the ball is thrown so that a WR could be considered offsides, (or perhaps I misunderstand your scenario).

You know, sports DO open up their rules to allow for more offense.

By your stodgy way of thinking, the following should NEVER have been allowed to have been instituted:

1. The DH

2. The Shot Clock

3. The 3 point shot

4. The 5 yard bump rule

5. The No Head Slap rule

and probably a dozen more if I thought hard enough.

And gee, offsides allows the defense certain strategies they otherwise would not have? So what. Those strategies need to go the way of the Dean Smith 4 Corners offense. That was certainly a defensive stategy. Hold the ball for 6-8 minutes at a time in a game.

Letting these incompetent hitters pitch? Oh, gee, that allows for the double switch and with the DH you wouldn't have that!! BFD.

Besides, perhaps hockey should get rid of the offside rule as well. The same issue applies. WTF is the goalie for? In the words of one famous commentator: what is he, a potted plant?

They have the same idiot shootout thing in hockey too. Why not just have the shootouts happen in the course of the game. Mano a mano. Shooter against goalie. Make it part of the regular course of action.

It is all so absurdly simple.

 

Ok, lets not get silly here.

 

I don’t want Basketball or American Football to be changed. They are their own unique sports with their own rules. I enjoy them.

 

I also don’t want Soccer to be changed because you don’t like the offsides rule. I enjoy watching Soccer, because I understand the intricacies and nuances of it. I also enjoy playing Soccer. But if you change it to make it easier on the offense, then Americans will surely never compete on the world stage again.

 

But here’s the deal. I have a pet peeve about folks who don’t understand the game, trying to make changes to it because they don’t like it for whatever reason. Leave the game alone, and don’t watch it if you don’t like it.

 

[Horse Balls]

Soccer is good for kids because it gets them running and exercizing. It is not a good spectator sport in my opinion.

However, there is one fairly simple thing they could do to improve it for the American sports audience:

Get rid of the offside rule.

The offside rule is idiocy.

That rule would be like saying that in basketball you HAVE to have a defender between you and the bucket to allow a basket to count.

It would be like saying that a wide receiver would HAVE to make sure that a DB is between him and the goal line before he would be allowed to proceed into the endzone.

Actually, the offside rule would be like requiring TWO defenders be between you and the basket or the goal line in the above situations, because in soccer they have this guy called a "Goalie". WTF is his job supposed to be? Why does he have to be treated like a developly disabled person and always have to be given extra help to do his job?

I mean, when all these damn games end in 0-0 ties because no one can score, what do they do? They have a shootout where it is just the offensive player and the goalie. Why the frak don't they just allow this to happen during the regular action of the game? It would make the regular action more exciting, more goals would probably be scored, fewer low scoring ties would be played, and they wouldn't have to resort to a phony, bastardized version of the game with these "shootouts". Let the shootouts occur during the game itself.

 

Soccer is for little kids and girls.

 

HB

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

You mean, all action, no boredom?

 

Soccer is no fun to watch now (why do you think no one watches it?). I don't know about playing.

 

So, you think a basketball player should not be allowed to score a basket unless there is a defensive player between him and the hoop?

 

I take it that you, too, are in favor of going back to the days of the 4 corners?

 

How about the forward pass in football? Should we go back to the days when the ruled didn't allow the forward pass? Or at least to the days where is was illegal unless you were 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage?

 

Rules change in sports all the time to make them more entertaining, more spectator friendly.

Once upon a time not too long ago, an NFL game that ended in a tie.....ended....in a tie. No OT at all.

Once upon a time there was no such thing as a two point PAT attempt.

Once upon a time a baseball was made so soft the most powerful batter could hit it maybe 250 feet. (dead ball era).

Once upon a time a jump ball was held after every made basket.

 

You are just used to soccer/hockey with the offside rule in place. People were "used to" the above rules as well and didn't want to change them. Someday, they may say: "once upon a time there was this rule called 'offside' which didn't allow a player to approach the net with the ball unless there were at least 2 defensive players in front of him....how foolish does that rule sound now?"

 

C'mon Gipper, really? Soccer is the most watched sport in the world. The 2006 FIFA World Cup drew an outstanding 30+ billion viewers worldwide. And before you get started, I understand you're talking about America. I just wanted to emphasize that the rest of the world loves soccer as it is, so it seems kind of foolish to change the rules only here in the States.

 

And America is catching on to soccer. The MLS has experienced growth each season since 2000. I can't find the figures, but I remember hearing Alexi Lalas say something along those lines whilst announcing during the USA-Puerto Rico qualifier match. Also, the MLS has passed the NBA and NHL in average attendance figures:

 

1. NFL - 67,508.69 (2009 season)

2. MLB - 30,213.37 (2009 season)

3. MLS - 18,452.14 (2010 season, as of 04/11/2010)

4. NBA - 17,149.61 (2009/10 season)

5. NHL - 16,985.31 (2009/10 season)

 

(per MLS Daily)

 

For a league that started only 12 years ago, I believe that's pretty phenomenal. The NFL ran into some trouble when it was founded back in 1920. It's almost the same scenario, if you look at it broadly. The MLS was an upstart league competing with other leagues (although worldwide) to grab talent and, in turn, bring in fans. Just like the NFL back in it's time. And now, with soccer specific stadiums being built, attendance is rising even more, and costs are being minimized.

 

And to answer your questions, no I don't believe there should be an offside rule implemented in basketball. Basketball is offensive enough as it is. And no, the NFL ruling on forward passes is quite sufficient. And no, I am not a fan of the 4 corners offense. Then again, I'm not a fan of Dean Smith either.

 

The reason the offside rule is in place in soccer is mainly to prevent "cherry picking", that is, a striker calmly waiting near the opponents goal waiting for a full field pass so they can score easily. And yes, it's quite easy to score in soccer when it's just a striker and the keeper. A regulation soccer goal is 8 yards wide, and 8 feet tall. That's 192 square feet of open goal that has to be covered by one person. I'd say it's pretty simple to score in a "one on one" situation. The offside rule makes games more competitive.

 

And you have your facts wrong in terms of hockey. Offsides in hockey is not the same as offsides in soccer. There is no rule that says a defender has to be between the offensive player and goalie. Offsides in hockey is crossing into the offensive zone (your opponents blue line) while another player from your team is already in the aforementioned zone. In other words, the person with the puck has to be the first person to cross the blue line, or else they are considered offsides.

 

I can see your point on how soccer games can be dull to those that aren't real fans, or are new to watching. And I believe there could be a few rule changes to make the games more offensive. But eliminating the offside rule is not the way to go.

 

I know you're passionate about things, but you're committing a couple logical fallacies in your previous posts. That's not like you, Gipper. Normally you're well-informed and rather cool-tempered, at least that's how you appear to me.

 

 

 

An interesting sidenote: Lamar Hunt, founder of the AFL, is also one of the original founding investors of the MLS, and soccer-specific stadiums are being constructed at his urging.

 

Another, slightly more interesting sidenote: The four corners offense was founded by famous African-American basketball coach John McLendon. McLendon went on to coach the Cleveland State Vikings and the Cleveland Pipers. You may have known that. I, however, did not.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Ok, lets not get silly here.

 

I don’t want Basketball or American Football to be changed. They are their own unique sports with their own rules. I enjoy them.

 

I also don’t want Soccer to be changed because you don’t like the offsides rule. I enjoy watching Soccer, because I understand the intricacies and nuances of it. I also enjoy playing Soccer. But if you change it to make it easier on the offense, then Americans will surely never compete on the world stage again.

 

But here’s the deal. I have a pet peeve about folks who don’t understand the game, trying to make changes to it because they don’t like it for whatever reason. Leave the game alone, and don’t watch it if you don’t like it.

 

 

We are very rarely in agreeance, Thaak. But I agree completely. Although I'm not the most passionate soccer fan, I can hold my own in conversation for the most part, and I do enjoy watching matches. I was one car accident away from buying World Cup tickets this year, as well.

 

Soccer is a worldwide sport that's been untouched for years. Just because we Americans base our lives on instant gratification doesn't mean that we need to change the rules of a sport that we're still relative "newbies" at.

[The Gipper]

Ok, lets not get silly here.

 

I don’t want Basketball or American Football to be changed. They are their own unique sports with their own rules. I enjoy them.

 

Hello! McFly! Is anybody home? I just told you that basketball and football (and baseball..and hockey too) have undergone constant and sometimes drastic changes to make them more palatable to the customer. That is my point!

 

I also don’t want Soccer to be changed because you don’t like the offsides rule. I enjoy watching Soccer, because I understand the intricacies and nuances of it. I also enjoy playing Soccer. But if you change it to make it easier on the offense, then Americans will surely never compete on the world stage again.

 

Well, perhaps it is the whole damn world that needs to change. (And since when have the American...men at least, ever competed on the world stage. Also...get this...where soccer is concerned, we Americans don't care about the world stage. If we cared about the world stage why would we have football and not futbol as our most popular sport? No one anywhere else plays it really, except Canada)

 

 

 

But here’s the deal. I have a pet peeve about folks who don’t understand the game, trying to make changes to it because they don’t like it for whatever reason. Leave the game alone, and don’t watch it if you don’t like it.

 

Well, I don't watch it a lot because I don't like it because it is too staid and boring. And in this country soccer is relegated to being a "minor league" sport because oh so many others believe the same way. A sport that doesn't tinker, improve, make itself more marketable to the public will wither. It has happened to other sports. Once upon a time not that long ago the 3 biggest most popular sports in America were Baseball, Boxing, and Horseracing. While boxing and horseracing still have some niche interest, they have been relegated pretty much to the wayside and surpassed by football, basketball, golf.

Soccer has never made much inroad here because of the perceived boring nature of the sport. Nil-nil = snooze-lose.

 

[jnuh]

C'mon Gipper, really? Soccer is the most watched sport in the world. The 2006 FIFA World Cup drew an outstanding 30+ billion viewers worldwide. And before you get started, I understand you're talking about America. I just wanted to emphasize that the rest of the world loves soccer as it is, so it seems kind of foolish to change the rules only here in the States.

 

And America is catching on to soccer. The MLS has experienced growth each season since 2000. I can't find the figures, but I remember hearing Alexi Lalas say something along those lines whilst announcing during the USA-Puerto Rico qualifier match. Also, the MLS has passed the NBA and NHL in average attendance figures:

 

1. NFL - 67,508.69 (2009 season)

2. MLB - 30,213.37 (2009 season)

3. MLS - 18,452.14 (2010 season, as of 04/11/2010)

4. NBA - 17,149.61 (2009/10 season)

5. NHL - 16,985.31 (2009/10 season)

 

(per MLS Daily)

 

For a league that started only 12 years ago, I believe that's pretty phenomenal. The NFL ran into some trouble when it was founded back in 1920. It's almost the same scenario, if you look at it broadly. The MLS was an upstart league competing with other leagues (although worldwide) to grab talent and, in turn, bring in fans. Just like the NFL back in it's time. And now, with soccer specific stadiums being built, attendance is rising even more, and costs are being minimized.

 

And to answer your questions, no I don't believe there should be an offside rule implemented in basketball. Basketball is offensive enough as it is. And no, the NFL ruling on forward passes is quite sufficient. And no, I am not a fan of the 4 corners offense. Then again, I'm not a fan of Dean Smith either.

 

The reason the offside rule is in place in soccer is mainly to prevent "cherry picking", that is, a striker calmly waiting near the opponents goal waiting for a full field pass so they can score easily. And yes, it's quite easy to score in soccer when it's just a striker and the keeper. A regulation soccer goal is 8 yards wide, and 8 feet tall. That's 192 square feet of open goal that has to be covered by one person. I'd say it's pretty simple to score in a "one on one" situation. The offside rule makes games more competitive.

 

And you have your facts wrong in terms of hockey. Offsides in hockey is not the same as offsides in soccer. There is no rule that says a defender has to be between the offensive player and goalie. Offsides in hockey is crossing into the offensive zone (your opponents blue line) while another player from your team is already in the aforementioned zone. In other words, the person with the puck has to be the first person to cross the blue line, or else they are considered offsides.

 

I can see your point on how soccer games can be dull to those that aren't real fans, or are new to watching. And I believe there could be a few rule changes to make the games more offensive. But eliminating the offside rule is not the way to go.

 

I know you're passionate about things, but you're committing a couple logical fallacies in your previous posts. That's not like you, Gipper. Normally you're well-informed and rather cool-tempered, at least that's how you appear to me.

 

 

 

An interesting sidenote: Lamar Hunt, founder of the AFL, is also one of the original founding investors of the MLS, and soccer-specific stadiums are being constructed at his urging.

 

Another, slightly more interesting sidenote: The four corners offense was founded by famous African-American basketball coach John McLendon. McLendon went on to coach the Cleveland State Vikings and the Cleveland Pipers. You may have known that. I, however, did not.

 

Attendance could be greater because MLS is generally played in football/baseball stadiums that hold ALOT more people then say a basketball/hockey arena. Plus there are more games in a basketball/hockey season which could potentially drag down the demand for tickets. The figures you gave for hockey and bball attendance are just shy of 17,000 for NHL and just above 17,000 for NBA and that is generally about how many fans an average arena holds. MLS is about 18500 per game and they are playing in a place like Giants stadium for instance which holds what 50,000?

 

I am not a big soccer fan by any stretch of the imagination and not 100 percent sure of the rules ... but if the offside rule is the same as it is in hockey you can't IMO remove that.

 

[Horse Balls]

Hey Guys, if you like talking about soccer than you should check this out: Soccer Fans

 

HB

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Attendance could be greater because MLS is generally played in football/baseball stadiums that hold ALOT more people then say a basketball/hockey arena. Plus there are more games in a basketball/hockey season which could potentially drag down the demand for tickets. The figures you gave for hockey and bball attendance are just shy of 17,000 for NHL and just above 17,000 for NBA and that is generally about how many fans an average arena holds. MLS is about 18500 per game and they are playing in a place like Giants stadium for instance which holds what 50,000?

 

I am not a big soccer fan by any stretch of the imagination and not 100 percent sure of the rules ... but if the offside rule is the same as it is in hockey you can't IMO remove that.

 

 

That's not necessarily true anymore. When the MLS first started, teams did use football stadiums simply because there were a lack of places to play. But now, only three teams play in football stadiums, the New England Revolution, Philadelphia Union, and Seattle Sounders FC. This is the last year Philly will be playing at Lincoln Financial, however, as they are currently constructing their own stadium.

 

Most of the stadiums used by MLS teams today are either soccer-specific stadiums or multi-use stadiums, with their secondary use being as a site for concerts. The capacity of most of these stadiums is around 20,000 people. So, although they aren't quite filling up to capacity, they are getting pretty damn close.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Hey Guys, if you like talking about soccer than you should check this out: Soccer Fans

 

HB

 

 

 

I figured I'd save you the trouble of clicking on a link.

[The Gipper]

C'mon Gipper, really? Soccer is the most watched sport in the world. The 2006 FIFA World Cup drew an outstanding 30+ billion viewers worldwide. And before you get started, I understand you're talking about America. I just wanted to emphasize that the rest of the world loves soccer as it is, so it seems kind of foolish to change the rules only here in the States.

 

Well, other countries change rules....look at the difference in rules between US and Canadian Football. Look at the difference between college a pro football. Australia has its own set of football rules. That is almost a completely different sport. It can be done.

 

And America is catching on to soccer. The MLS has experienced growth each season since 2000. I can't find the figures, but I remember hearing Alexi Lalas say something along those lines whilst announcing during the USA-Puerto Rico qualifier match. Also, the MLS has passed the NBA and NHL in average attendance figures:

 

1. NFL - 67,508.69 (2009 season)

2. MLB - 30,213.37 (2009 season)

3. MLS - 18,452.14 (2010 season, as of 04/11/2010)

4. NBA - 17,149.61 (2009/10 season)

5. NHL - 16,985.31 (2009/10 season)

 

Well, soccer is played in an outdoor stadium instead of an indoor arena, and is a once a week game essentially, instead of every day or every other day like hockey or basketball...so its not as impressive as it appears. (but it is growing some)

 

(per MLS Daily)

 

For a league that started only 12 years ago, I believe that's pretty phenomenal.

I wouldn't say phenomenal. More like "expected". And remember, the MLS wasn't the first attempt. Back in the 60s the New York Cosmos and other teams were in a league that probably did as well then as the MLS is doing now, but it went belly up.

 

The NFL ran into some trouble when it was founded back in 1920. It's almost the same scenario, if you look at it broadly.

 

Yea, and what did the NFL do?: Make drastic rules changes to open up the offense of the game....like the passing rules I mentioned earlier.

 

The MLS was an upstart league competing with other leagues (although worldwide) to grab talent and, in turn, bring in fans. Just like the NFL back in it's time. And now, with soccer specific stadiums being built, attendance is rising even more, and costs are being minimized.

 

And to answer your questions, no I don't believe there should be an offside rule implemented in basketball. Basketball is offensive enough as it is. And no, the NFL ruling on forward passes is quite sufficient. And no, I am not a fan of the 4 corners offense. Then again, I'm not a fan of Dean Smith either.

 

(Well...to me, you seem to contradict yourself, you don't like the slow down version of basketball, but you do like the slow down version of soccer)

 

The reason the offside rule is in place in soccer is mainly to prevent "cherry picking", that is, a striker calmly waiting near the opponents goal waiting for a full field pass so they can score easily.

 

And I told you how to deal with that....don't make his stay there so "calm". Put someone on him...guard him just like you would anywhere else on the field...just like a basketball/hockey/football player roaming the field/rink/court has to be guarded...or give him reason to regret his cherry picking by picking off one of his kneecaps.

 

 

And yes, it's quite easy to score in soccer when it's just a striker and the keeper. A regulation soccer goal is 8 yards wide, and 8 feet tall. That's 192 square feet of open goal that has to be covered by one person. I'd say it's pretty simple to score in a "one on one" situation. The offside rule makes games more competitive.

 

Pity the poor freeking goalie who will have to work for his money. So what if a game ends 8-5 instead of 1-0? I disagree that offsides make anything more competitive. I think it would be far more competitive without it. And if one on one is so bad, then why are half the damn games settled by "shootouts". Like I said, just shift the damn shootout to the regular course of the game action instead of in some phonied up fashion at the end of the game. I mean, they endorse the one on one when they do the shootouts...apparently they aren't so bad after all.

 

And you have your facts wrong in terms of hockey. Offsides in hockey is not the same as offsides in soccer. There is no rule that says a defender has to be between the offensive player and goalie. Offsides in hockey is crossing into the offensive zone (your opponents blue line) while another player from your team is already in the aforementioned zone. In other words, the person with the puck has to be the first person to cross the blue line, or else they are considered offsides.

 

Yes, I knew they were not the same ( I am not sure I claimed they were the same). I don't mind the hockey rule quite as much. Perhaps partly because the game is faster and played on a much smaller arena, and because it is different. Perhaps if soccer used the hockey version of offside it would be an improvement over the current rule.

 

I can see your point on how soccer games can be dull to those that aren't real fans, or are new to watching. And I believe there could be a few rule changes to make the games more offensive. But eliminating the offside rule is not the way to go.

 

I know you're passionate about things, but you're committing a couple logical fallacies in your previous posts. That's not like you, Gipper. Normally you're well-informed and rather cool-tempered, at least that's how you appear to me.

 

On the contrary, I think I am the one being completely logical because I am not looking at it from the viewpoint of a passionate fan of the game, but as someone who is neutral toward it. I am not constricted in my viewpoint by the traditions of the game. This is like the traditionalist/passionate baseball fan arguing that it would be completely illogical for the game to adopt the designated hitter rule. Where I come from is from the viewpoint that the designated hitter rule would perhaps open up the offense of the game. (and indeed, it did). And that eliminating the offside rule would open up the game of soccer (and indeed, it would).

 

 

 

An interesting sidenote: Lamar Hunt, founder of the AFL, is also one of the original founding investors of the MLS, and soccer-specific stadiums are being constructed at his urging.

 

Lamar Hunt is deceased, but I know he did do the things you mention.

 

Another, slightly more interesting sidenote: The four corners offense was founded by famous African-American basketball coach John McLendon. McLendon went on to coach the Cleveland State Vikings and the Cleveland Pipers. You may have known that. I, however, did not.

 

I did not know that either. I had always heard it attributed to Dean Smith.

 

[The Gipper]

Hey Guys, if you like talking about soccer than you should check this out: Soccer Fans

 

HB

 

 

Well I understand your feelings. My attempt here is simply to make that game a little less "gay" thank you very much.

[The Gipper]

That's not necessarily true anymore. When the MLS first started, teams did use football stadiums simply because there were a lack of places to play. But now, only three teams play in football stadiums, the New England Revolution, Philadelphia Union, and Seattle Sounders FC. This is the last year Philly will be playing at Lincoln Financial, however, as they are currently constructing their own stadium.

 

Most of the stadiums used by MLS teams today are either soccer-specific stadiums or multi-use stadiums, with their secondary use being as a site for concerts. The capacity of most of these stadiums is around 20,000 people. So, although they aren't quite filling up to capacity, they are getting pretty damn close.

 

 

Well, I have also seen a couple of the soccer stadiums from the outside. (never been to a game) Including the one in Columbus. That is essentially an erector set stadium. As an architectural structure it is not very impressive. Not nearly as much as the Jake (yea, I'm still calling it that), or CBS, or certainly Ohio Stadium.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Rules do differ by country. But there's also no world championship tournament in any of the other sports like there is in soccer. I think every league tries to adhere to the worldwide sanctioned rules of play in order to give their national team the best chance at bringing home the Cup. If we rid the MLS of the offside rule, then we wouldn't have a shot at competing in the World Cup. And that would be a shame, because our National team is definitely one to contend nowadays. We're no longer the American patsies we used to be on the pitch.

 

The NFL did change the rules, you're right. But football was a relatively new sport then, and I use relatively as a very loose term. Soccer has been around for much longer, and the rules have barely changed throughout time.

 

 

I don't believe I'm contradicting myself in the least. If I wanted to watch a fast-paced, high scoring game, I'll watch basketball. When I want to watch a slower paced, lower-scoring, defensive challenge, I'll watch soccer. Or Big-10 basketball. The very nature of soccer is it's difficulty of scoring, and has been since it was created. It would be different if soccer once was a fast-paced score-fest that somehow got slowed down. Soccer is meant to be played the way it is and has been.

 

I'm sure that teams wouldn't allow a player to calmly camp near their goal, you're correct. But putting a defender on him will do nothing in terms of making the games faster. All that will do is spread the players even more throughout the pitch, and you'll just see nothing but 90 minutes of full-field passes that are defended and shot the other way with the goal thrown in at about every 3rd or 4th pass. Nobody would really be running, it would be nothing but long passes. The offsides rule keeps the game flowing back and forth.

 

Are you implying that the entire game should be replaced by just a shootout? Keep in mind that in an overtime shootout, players are shooting from the penalty mark, which is 12 yards from the goal. They cannot move the ball from the mark, and only have one attempt per kick. No rebounds. In a game, I highly doubt a player would stop 12 yards from the goal and kick the ball once and only once. So instead of looking at an 8-5 game, we'd be looking at a 35-30 game. You're telling me you'd watch 90 minutes of soccer if they were scoring 35 goals? I doubt that. Keep in mind that in football, although the score looks high, a team is really only scoring 3-4 times a game, sometimes less.

 

I don't think you actually claimed they were the same, I kind of just assumed you figured they were. Most people do. That's my fault. I would like to see soccer try and adopt the hockey offside ruling, but I think it would be too hard and produce the same results. On hockey, you're on ice and it's easier to time crossing the line right when the puck crosses. In soccer it would be a little too... clunky. And less graceful. I don't know, I'm torn on that. I don't think it would change the pace of the game, though.

 

The fallacies I was referring to were the ones where you assumed that since I like the offside rule in soccer, I like the four corners offense in basketball and so forth. I believe it's called hasty generalization. Like I said before, I'm hardly the passionate fan. I'm a 4 year fan, if anything. I get involved in World Cup years. I claim to be a Man City fan, but I couldn't even tell you their record, their number of championships, or how their league is even structured.

 

I know Lamar Hunt is deceased. I actually remember where I was when I found out he died. But he was the catalyst in getting these soccer-specific stadiums constructed.

 

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Well, I have also seen a couple of the soccer stadiums from the outside. (never been to a game) Including the one in Columbus. That is essentially an erector set stadium. As an architectural structure it is not very impressive. Not nearly as much as the Jake (yea, I'm still calling it that), or CBS, or certainly Ohio Stadium.

 

 

I never claimed they were works of art, but they do what they were intended to do.

[The Gipper]

Rules do differ by country. But there's also no world championship tournament in any of the other sports like there is in soccer.

 

That is not true at all. There are World Championships/Cups in basketball, baseball, golf, cricket, rugby, hockey, practically every sport except football. (International basketball rules are different than NBA/NCAA. They have the goofy trapezoid foul key, they allow goaltending, etc.)

 

I think every league tries to adhere to the worldwide sanctioned rules of play in order to give their national team the best chance at bringing home the Cup. If we rid the MLS of the offside rule, then we wouldn't have a shot at competing in the World Cup. And that would be a shame, because our National team is definitely one to contend nowadays. We're no longer the American patsies we used to be on the pitch.

 

I disagree. If the NBA disallows goaltending, but International basketball rules allow it, does that give the USA a disadvantage, no. the MLS could easily adopt a no offside rule and we would still do just fine in international, no sweat!

 

The NFL did change the rules, you're right. But football was a relatively new sport then, and I use relatively as a very loose term. Soccer has been around for much longer, and the rules have barely changed throughout time.

 

Right, my point exactly, they haven't adapted. I am not asking the whole world to change. Just American soccer. I mean, we came up with Indoor Soccer. That is totally different....and for a long, long time, more popular in this country....and in this city...than outdoor soccer. It may still be more popular for all I know. I only know that the Force and The Crunch no longer seem to be around.

 

 

I don't believe I'm contradicting myself in the least. If I wanted to watch a fast-paced, high scoring game, I'll watch basketball. When I want to watch a slower paced, lower-scoring, defensive challenge, I'll watch soccer. Or Big-10 basketball. The very nature of soccer is it's difficulty of scoring, and has been since it was created. It would be different if soccer once was a fast-paced score-fest that somehow got slowed down. Soccer is meant to be played the way it is and has been.

 

And, again, by that argument, it could be said that football should never have adopted the forward pass...I mean, originally, it was meant to be a purely running game, but it adapted.

 

I'm sure that teams wouldn't allow a player to calmly camp near their goal, you're correct. But putting a defender on him will do nothing in terms of making the games faster. All that will do is spread the players even more throughout the pitch, and you'll just see nothing but 90 minutes of full-field passes that are defended and shot the other way with the goal thrown in at about every 3rd or 4th pass. Nobody would really be running, it would be nothing but long passes. The offsides rule keeps the game flowing back and forth.

 

You are forgetting that if one team has cherry pickers down at one end, the other team could have down at the other end, as I said, a constant power play....It it THAT that keeps players in basketball from cherry picking, it is THAT that would keep soccer players from cherry picking. (and yea, it IS my intent to open up the players, and have a few more long passes...just like in football and baseball....chicks dig the long ball!) (It wouldn't be as bad as you claim, and teams would adjust their strategies....just like when the DH was instituted, just like when the 3 point goal was instituted, or the shot clock, the coaches and players WOULD adjust. They are smart enough to...and they would adjust to winning 7-4 as opposed to 2-1)

 

Are you implying that the entire game should be replaced by just a shootout?

No, only by a more wide open offense, with elements of the shootout incorporated into regular action.

 

Keep in mind that in an overtime shootout, players are shooting from the penalty mark, which is 12 yards from the goal. They cannot move the ball from the mark, and only have one attempt per kick. No rebounds. In a game, I highly doubt a player would stop 12 yards from the goal and kick the ball once and only once. So instead of looking at an 8-5 game, we'd be looking at a 35-30 game. You're telling me you'd watch 90 minutes of soccer if they were scoring 35 goals? I doubt that. Keep in mind that in football, although the score looks high, a team is really only scoring 3-4 times a game, sometimes less.

 

Even Indoor soccer which was played on a much smaller field, and if I am correct had NO offside rule didn't have scores like that...so you are just being silly with your prediction of 35 goal games. You might have the occasional 10 goal game though....if you had a really bad goalie.

 

[Thaak]

I couldn't disagree with The Gipper more. If you do away with offsides in Soccer, it literally would ruin the game.

 

The lower the level the game, the more offsides tends to slow it down or ruin good scoring chances.

 

Americans also have the attitude of quick gratification, and you see this in MLS play to some extent. The national team is finally starting to realize how Soccer is played. The biggest thing a team can have in Soccer is anticipatory patience. You gotta be ready to take advantage whenever the time comes, but meanwhile, you bide your time. It doesn't mean you don't try to manufacture those opportunities, but the majority of the World Cup championship teams, are the patient teams, not the flashy ones.

 

The lower levels of the game, especially in America, tend to long serves or through passes. The easiest way to defeat an overly aggressive team with lots of speed, is to do the offsides trap. Hell, when I played when younger, half the defenders didn't know how to pull a trap, but the offensive players were so aggressive they ended up offsides anyways.

 

As you gain in experience and raise your level of play, you realize that patience is the biggest virtue. You play the game, you pass the ball, you create your opportunities through patience, perseverance, and sound team technique or tactics. Fundamentals.

 

A good soccer game can end 0-0 and go to a shoot-out, and still be extremely exciting as you watch the on-field chess match. Rarely do offsides cause game slow down or cause major shifts in momentum at the elite levels, because the players understand how to use/can be used against them.

[ClevelandFanForLife]

Yeah, the real football rules by a HUGE margin. Football is better than every other sport on the planet, imho.

 

But back in HS I was about 135 lbs-- not exactly football material. (I'm 30 lbs bigger now, but at 40 years old opportunities for football have all but disappeared.) Also, I grew up in California in the 70s and 80s where kids mainly played baseball, soccer, and basketball. I think kids here in Ohio play a lot more football than we did. Then again, Seneca Wallace is from my hometown, Sacramento!

yeah, that's because all you need is a ball and space to play in. you really don't even need a ball. you can use a can or even a pine cone.

[ClevelandFanForLife]

soccer is one of the biggest sissy games in the world. it involved running away from other sissies and taking dives. i played four years of college rugby, and we all knew that soccer was for queers. need evidence? here you go.

 

 

need more evidence?

[BrownIndian]

soccer is one of the biggest sissy games in the world. it involved running away from other sissies and taking dives. i played four years of college rugby, and we all knew that soccer was for queers. need evidence? here you go.

 

 

need more evidence?

 

U know about Soccer by playing Rugby ? Well then how did u learn about NFL ? I would love to know.

[ClevelandFanForLife]

U know about Soccer by playing Rugby ? Well then how did u learn about NFL ? I would love to know.

what i know about soccer is what i see with my own eyes; people taking dives. my best friend played soccer all through high school and he said that his early coaches told him to take dives if their team was down. i don't quite think you understand what i was saying. i simply meant that we spent a lot of time making fun of the soccer players who practiced before us. their parties sucked too. rugby parties are way better. if you've never been to one, you're missing out.

[VaporTrail]

soccer is one of the biggest sissy games in the world. it involved running away from other sissies and taking dives. i played four years of college rugby, and we all knew that soccer was for queers. need evidence? here you go.

 

You probably just suck at it. I play rugby too, but I still love soccer, and a bunch of people on my team also love soccer. Diving is a part of the game, and sometimes it works, if not, then you look like a fool. But if you go holding your ankle and pouring water on your shin after a call isn't made, I have no sympathy for you because you are a pussy. I was playing an intramural game one time, as keeper, and we played this team of Africans that took the game way too seriously. Anywho, he had a breakaway, but dribbled ahead of himself, so I rushed the ball, and clearly got to it first. The asshole slid cleats up into the side of my leg, and then rolled around and pretended he was hurt, while I got up and limped through the rest of the game. People like that ruin soccer. I don't care if you're going to flop, it happens, and it's a part of the game's strategy, but the theatrics need to fking go.