Tour2ma Posted December 17, 2014 Report Share Posted December 17, 2014 It used to be they developed a quarterback. Not anymore! If Bradshaw was coming out today, good luck! Great example... Except that Bradshaw started game one his rookie year... also started game 2 thru 7... Then was benched for nearly the last half of that year for poor play, limited to spot duty in garbage time... Bradshaw's circumstances were far closer to Couch's than Johnny's... both were overall #1's that were immediately pressed into service on bad teams. By contrast to either, our "patience" with JM has been unlimited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 17, 2014 Report Share Posted December 17, 2014 It used to be they developed a quarterback. Not anymore! If Bradshaw was coming out today, good luck! Teams won't wait to develop a guy. Great example...Except that Bradshaw started game one his rookie year... Then was benched for poor play Bradshaw's circumstances were far closer to Couch's than Johnny's... both were overall #1's that were immediately pressed into service on bad teams. By contrast to either, our "patience" with JM has been unlimited. The bigger difference is today Free Agency and rookie contracts prohibit "development" of higher draft picks. Because of the rookie pay scale & CBA, we gotta pay high picks millions from day one(like they're already stars) and only have them for only a few years before they can leave....so....we should spend years and millions developing QB's for other teams? No. Today, if you're picked early and you have the 8 million dollar contract, you are expected to perform. Right away. Connor Shaw cost us nothing.....and get's paid nothing...so THAT is the type you "develop". And presumed SUPERSTARS are held to a higher standard and paid as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berniedenslow Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 It used to be they developed a quarterback. Not anymore! If Bradshaw was coming out today, good luck! Teams won't wait to develop a guy. And there aren't many Andrew Lucks' graduating anytime soon. Say goodbye to; Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker and pretty soon Colin Kaepernick. That's damned right - hell, Fran Tarkenton didn't make the playoffs until what, his 12th season? He's in the Hall of Fame. Fast food football rebuilding doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 18, 2014 Report Share Posted December 18, 2014 Because of the rookie pay scale & CBA, we gotta pay high picks millions from day one(like they're already stars) and only have them for only a few years before they can leave....so....we should spend years and millions developing QB's for other teams? No. Today, if you're picked early and you have the 8 million dollar contract, you are expected to perform. Right away. Connor Shaw cost us nothing.....and get's paid nothing...so THAT is the type you "develop". And presumed SUPERSTARS are held to a higher standard and paid as such. Not following you, Mud. Thanks to the CBA top draft picks are cheaper now than they have been since the dawn of the AFL. $8 mill is cheap. Add that deals are usually for 3-5 years with maybe an option year and there is plenty of time to assess top QBs' potential. The problem would seem to me to be bigger on the long-shots, the Shaw's. Sure their deals are cheap, but they are also short-term. Most of the time UDFAs are on one or two-year deals. They don't get much time and turnover at the lower end is high. They are disposable. Agree they are who you can develop, maybe even should, but it's harder now that under the old, essentially "lifetime" contracts of the past. That's damned right - hell, Fran Tarkenton didn't make the playoffs until what, his 12th season? He's in the Hall of Fame. Fast food football rebuilding doesn't work. Sir Francis was a good QB on a bad team, Day 1 in the league. He scrambled for his for most of his early career... not to run, but to buy time to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 If (Hoyer) was all Cleveland had all year I would understand, but that's not the case.... In what world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Yep. Had people actually supported him instead of demanding Johnny Fruitcakes replace him after every play maybe he would have kept growing. This is Cleveland though, where anytime we find a guy with potential we go draft a media faggot with zero talent in the 1st round as his replacement instead of letting the guy develop. Now i'm not saying Hoyer was the longterm answer, but we are talking about a ceiling around Tony Romo with Hoyer vs a ceiling of a lower I.Q., lazier, shorter and less Athletic Tim Tebow with Johnny Fruitcakes. Fucking insanity the Mob calls for the Fruitcake yet again and demands the Browns squelch the potential. Ironically the same guys that are calling for one guy to get more time to develop are the same guys calling to shit can another guy after one bad start. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Yes indeed they do. I hope JFF tears it up this week to shut them the fuck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Not following you, Mud. Thanks to the CBA top draft picks are cheaper now than they have been since the dawn of the AFL. $8 mill is cheap. Add that deals are usually for 3-5 years with maybe an option year and there is plenty of time to assess top QBs' potential. OK....I was mistaken then....as I thought the max rookie contract was 4 years(dunno why) and figured if you burned the first 2 or 3 years developing them, then they could end up playing one year and then bolting as soon as they become something good.... I think maybe Im confusing B ball with football a bit..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 One earned it and has potential. The other hasn't earned shit and has less potential than Brady fucking Quinn. Dude you're out of your mind. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I'm not the one calling for the guy with Seneca Wallace's height, Colt McCoy's arm and Ryan Leafs work ethic to "get more time" and "be our starter." I don't necessarily agree with how hardcore you've given up on him, but I did want to point out that I prefer the Seneca Wallace comparison more than the Russell Wilson one, fits better at this point What I mean is, it isn't fair to give up on him this early. I am very doubtful he succeeds much though. But we can still work on developing him without altering our decisions at all. Pick the guy who can win, if you really love a rookie coming out or FA take them. Unlike some of the aggie airheads on here have said, being a 1st round pick doesn't guarantee you anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats_Fan93 Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I wouldn't compare Johnny M. to Russel Wilson and quite honestly it baffles me that I keep hearing people everywhere making that comparison. Totally different player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoundDawg Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 ^ I don't get that either. Wilson is a thousand times more mature, played four years in college, and came from a pro style offense. Wilson never looks to run immediately. He know how to read the D and get through his progressions before escaping the pocket. He only runs when he HAS to run. Has a much, much better feel for the pocket, which wouldn't be difficult since JFF seems to have zero feel for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats_Fan93 Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 ^ Exactly. Wilson is fully capable of passing from the pocket. From what I've seen of Johnny he doesn't have seem to have an awareness of the pocket passing game. Who knows, if Johnny can adapt to an NFL style offense and use his running/speed like Wilson does, he may be comparable one day. But not anytime soon and who knows if that will even happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I'm not the one calling for the guy with Seneca Wallace's height, Colt McCoy's arm and Ryan Leafs work ethic to "get more time" and "be our starter." You've seen the guy in one game. This is indicative of exactly how crappy our fanbase is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Yes indeed they do. I hope JFF tears it up this week to shut them the fuck up. Great reason... Some of us would love it if JM "tears it up", but because it would help us win and would give us a basis for hope. See the difference? Ironically the same guys that are calling for one guy to get more time to develop are the same guys calling to shit can another guy after one bad start. Which same guys? It's OK to name names... Steve, remember the much ballyhooed A&M play where JM... nevermind... here it is. Note the slot receiver, #15... he's the guy who does jumping-jacks near the sideline. Fans followed the announcers lead... they touted the "excitement" in Manziel's play. Analysts pointed out the play was made unnecessarily exciting by Manziel. The receiver was wide open right away and was reasonable choice for a 2nd and 7. JM looked at him early, but chose to run around and bounce off players. Fast forward to JM's CIN start. In his 4th series' 3rd, and final, play, Dray is split left and runs a 10-yard, inside curl. The outside WR runs a deep clearing route; the CB follows. The OLB is late to Dray and too shallow; his back is to JM. The window is open. JM looks left and does not throw. There is no pocket pressure at this point. Nonetheless JM pulls the ball down and begins to run left. Seeing the run the OLB closes. Dray follows to potentially set a block. JM floats the ball over the OLB... and over Dray. Some are actually blaming Dray for mistiming his jump. I think that is laughable, but that's not the point. The point is that JM did not see the initial read; he did not see the window. The point is that JM has not improved his game since A&M. The point is you have to show progress to earn more time to progress. Maybe we'll see a down payment this Sunday. Go Browns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 College has no bearing on the nfl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 OK....I was mistaken then....as I thought the max rookie contract was 4 years(dunno why) and figured if you burned the first 2 or 3 years developing them, then they could end up playing one year and then bolting as soon as they become something good.... Actually most 2014 draftee contracts seem to split our difference at 4 years. A couple have 5th year options. More than enough to see potential and develop much of what's there even at QB. But bolting is a potential issue, be it at 2,3 5,or 8 years. Especially at QB as opposed to say, RB, where the rookie contract length equals the average life expectancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I'd like to thank Tour for highlighting that play. It was one I mentioned in this thread (or perhaps another?) last Tuesday. That "highlight" is the poorest example of one I've ever seen. 1st bad decision, as Tour put it - was not to throw to the open boundary bubble screen. 2nd terrible decision was jumping headlong into a pile of defenders. It is nothing more than shear luck he was able to get out of that mess. College has no bearing on the nfl It doesn't? How do you explain the NFL front office process of selecting draft picks then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I'd like to thank Tour for highlighting that play. It doesn't? How do you explain the NFL front office process of selecting draft picks then? You're welcome... I may know where Kid is coming from... Might be a sarcastic post as the argument has been made to the Manzealots that JM's college success is not necessarily translatable to the NFL. Has set me to wondering: what is??? I may have to put on my Gipper mask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I'm not the one calling for the guy with Seneca Wallace's height, Colt McCoy's arm and Ryan Leafs work ethic to "get more time" and "be our starter." You're the guy making ridiculous statements. Unfounded and meaningless. That's all. You have no fucking idea how much potential the guy has. Nobody, especially nobody on this board, does one way or the other. I understand you are upset with the pick and with him but just saying stupid shit doesn't bolster your argument. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Plus just an FYI Seneca Wallace and Russell Wilson are 5 feet 11 inches tall. Drew Brees is 6 feet tall, the same as Johnny Manziel. As if that means anything to you. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Plus just an FYI Seneca Wallace and Russell Wilson are 5 feet 11 inches tall. Drew Brees is 6 feet tall, the same as Johnny Manziel. As if that means anything to you. WSS I think that was the point. People always mention Wilson and Brees in reference to small QB comparisons, which is not accurate for Johnny - who is closer to Seneca Wallace at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Its the same 10 or so posters. They have been spewing their uneducated garbage all week, nonstop. At some point you figured it would slow down. Its a 22 year old kid they have been attacking relentlessly. These posters need to grow up. Be an adult. Anyone who has been a longtime fan of an NFL team should have learned the dangers of being an instant evaluator. Ok. Let's not evaluate what he's done so far :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Its the same 10 or so posters. They have been spewing their uneducated garbage all week, nonstop. At some point you figured it would slow down. Its a 22 year old kid they have been attacking relentlessly. These posters need to grow up. Be an adult. Anyone who has been a longtime fan of an NFL team should have learned the dangers of being an instant evaluator. I'd say most are evaluating him over the course of his college and now NFL career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I'd like to thank Tour for highlighting that play. It was one I mentioned in this thread (or perhaps another?) last Tuesday. That "highlight" is the poorest example of one I've ever seen. 1st bad decision, as Tour put it - was not to throw to the open boundary bubble screen. 2nd terrible decision was jumping headlong into a pile of defenders. It is nothing more than shear luck he was able to get out of that mess. It doesn't? How do you explain the NFL front office process of selecting draft picks then? If it did college superstars would be nfl superstars and guys like tom brady would be schlubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Not to wade in on Brady, but I would say that back up QB's tend to look GREAT when they play for a GREAT team. So great teams execute well, which makes life much easier for a QB. That doesn't mean Brady is great because he's on a great team.....but I do believe many of the "perceived greatest" QB's have benefitted from their great teams....a few that I think woulda been closer to average if they played for lesser teams include Simms, Aikman, Bradshaw and Montana....I think all these guys rankings have been inflated because they had great teams around them.... A few that "might" have been even greater, had they been on better teams include Marino, A. Manning & Cunningham Imagine if Marino had the 49's team that Montana had......wow! I know there's no way to know for sure on any of these guys.....just fun speculatin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Remove Brady from New England and the Patriots system and he's Matt Cassel. Purely a System QB. Even he knows it, which is why he never bitches about small contracts and taking pay cuts. I disagree. New England over the last 10 years has had one of the most diverse offensive structures in the league and Brady has been successful in everyone of them including swapping offensive cordiaators multiple times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal312 Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Let's face it! Our FO needs to buy the book, "How To Draft NFL Players FOR DUMMIES" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 I think that was the point. People always mention Wilson and Brees in reference to small QB comparisons, which is not accurate for Johnny - who is closer to Seneca Wallace at this point.Well wasn't my point. My point is the guy was talking a load of shit. I just further pointed out that his numbers were even wrong making his nonsense even more ridiculous. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 19, 2014 Report Share Posted December 19, 2014 Junkyarddog need to quit taking PCP before posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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