John Football Excuses Forum....

[TypicalBrowns]

with how bad the o line played, the d got gashed, no help to manziel came at all.

A rookie qb will not single hadnedly win you games when the entire rest of the team gives in.

Drops, pressure all day, the whole offense struggled

[bbedward]

Why did Johnny chuckle and smile after getting hit by defenders and seeing the money sign thrown at the fans and in his face. I thought he was the type of guy to bring up teammates and get in their face for missed assignments, etc.

[Manzier]

A rookie qb will not single hadnedly win you games when the entire rest of the team gives in.

 

Unless you're the colts and get Luck (y)

[Westside Steve]

Unless you're the colts and get Luck (y)

The Colts had been sandbagging the entire previous season.

 

WSS

[Manzier]

The Colts had been sandbagging the entire previous season.

 

WSS

Sure seemed that way, didnt it?? Id say NFL conspiracy, but it's Irsay.

 

I always did wonder how they got 50 players to lay down like that and take it in the ass so their team could get a draft pick.

 

Seriously.

[Westside Steve]

Sure seemed that way, didnt it?? Id say NFL conspiracy, but it's Irsay.

 

I always did wonder how they got 50 players to lay down like that and take it in the ass so their team could get a draft pick.

 

Seriously.

That's an extremely unpleasant possibility.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

Not even a hint. Why would that have changed when he has even less ability to escape defenders trying to take the handoff? And he had a real defense last weekend, but would not have had any this weekend any more than JF. Same exact outcome. This was a team effort at total failure of the trenches both sides of the ball. When you do your line grading this week it will show the data back up the statement.

 

The hard question for Pettine now is where to go from here. Do you leave him in to learn from mistakes or do you tell him we start over next summer and place it on yourself as coach?

First, you leave JM in. Playoffs gone. It's his now. Not a hard question at all.

 

As for O-line grades... they surprise me all the time. So we shall see...

 

As for hand-offs escapability... No. Dead wrong there. With BH we are not in the Pistol that produced those pressures. Do me a favor? Grade JM's read-option reads? We'll compare notes.

 

Well... it seems that Broadway Flop Johnny wasn't ready for primetime.

 

I could dismiss that easily, if they had thrown him into the fire early on.

 

Johnny has been too busy being Broadway, when he should have taken this

opportunity to WORK at being successful, instead of partying around all this time...

Yup... been mulling over a similar thought, cal.

 

When all was made about "late night, game plan sessions lasting until 02:30", I was wondering. Why the cramming?

 

When I crammed in college it was because I did not keep up with the course load throughout the semester. Why a "first in, last to leave" QB who has applied himself would have to cram escapes me. Even if the QB is a rookie one.

 

Why did Johnny chuckle and smile after getting hit by defenders and seeing the money sign thrown at the fans and in his face. I thought he was the type of guy to bring up teammates and get in their face for missed assignments, etc.

Good question...

[Manzier]

That's an extremely unpleasant possibility.

WSS

Elway, Manning and then Luck?

 

What are the odds?

 

Irsay has something on someone.

[Westside Steve]

I would imagine learning process is similar to learning to play a card game or a song. Playing the game or playing the song in a live situation teaches you a shit load more then looking at the chords for the rules on a sheet of paper. Not to mention that this has been the first week that Johnny Manziel has been taking reps with the first team.

 

And there is no evidence that he has taken anything away from his practice schedule.

 

WSS

[tiamat63]

I would imagine learning process is similar to learning to play a card game or a song. Playing the game or playing the song in a live situation teaches you a shit load more then looking at the chords for the rules on a sheet of paper. Not to mention that this has been the first week that Johnny Manziel has been taking reps with the first team.

 

And there is no evidence that he has taken anything away from his practice schedule.

 

WSS

 

Bullshit. Johnny was getting spot reps with the 1st team way back in training camp. I saw it with my own eyes.

[Westside Steve]

 

Bullshit. Johnny was getting spot reps with the 1st team way back in training camp. I saw it with my own eyes.

Oh well then it must be true coach. And if it is maybe that's the reason Brian Hoyer has been struggling. I mean if they are splitting up the reps they're cheating the starting quarterback.

WSS

[jrb12711]

This game will test Manziel's character. If he's strong, he will forget about it and come back ready to win in Carolina. I've seen other rookie qb's have their confidence ruined just by playing for the Browns (Couch, Weeden, Frye, etc.)

 

Yep I agree with that 100%. Like I said he didn't just play bad he got utterly humiliated out there (so did a lot of others to be fair). Two options are to roll over or stand up, let's hope it's the latter.

[Tour2ma]

I would imagine learning process is similar to learning to play a card game or a song. Playing the game or playing the song in a live situation teaches you a shit load more then looking at the chords for the rules on a sheet of paper.

Again you miss my point? Had nothing to do with the game outcome. Was all about the prep process.

 

Can't reply to the song thing except that my music, be it tape, CD or Vinyl, plays the same first time as it does every time thereafter. (Yet to fire up my new Pono player tho...)

 

As for cards... nothing like football that I can see. Within reason you can take all the time you need to make a play. Doesn't matter the game: Bridge, Pinochle, Poker, Old Maid. Maybe in the case of War you have a point.

[BrownBoB]

How are they gonna get this kid ready in one week? Mission impossible. Sit him down before he gets killed out there!

[Westside Steve]

Again you miss my point? Had nothing to do with the game outcome. Was all about the prep process.

 

Can't reply to the song thing except that my music, be it tape, CD or Vinyl, plays the same first time as it does every time thereafter. (Yet to fire up my new Pono player tho...)

 

As for cards... nothing like football that I can see. Within reason you can take all the time you need to make a play. Doesn't matter the game: Bridge, Pinochle, Poker, Old Maid. Maybe in the case of War you have a point.

Actually that was Tiamat63 s point; that both quarterbacks were getting first team reps. At least that's the one I was responding to.

 

WSS

[Tour2ma]

Just read this article: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/12/johnny_manziel_dmans_report_ga.html

 

SPOILER ALERT: Obviously since I posted the link it lends some support to my prep postulate...

 

Interesting insight from the outside: Manziel did not play like a quarterback who had training camp and 14 weeks to prepare for his starting debut. Maybe it is because he did not, in fact, steadily prepare as needed.

 

In the final minutes Sunday, as Fox showed Manziel sitting on the bench with his head down, analyst and former standout defensive back John Lynch spoke of an interaction he had with Manziel: "The best quarterbacks in this league, they're the hardest workers in the building. Johnny Manziel was, this week -- by all accounts. All year, he hasn't been. And I asked him: 'Are you willing to do that?' He said, 'Well, this week was a good start.' He was stand-up. I think he didn't argue that he hasn't been. He said, 'This was a good start.' And we'll see from here, and I think that will go a long way in determining his success.''

 

Obviously, Lynch saying, "I think he didn't argue that he hasn't been'' left plenty open to interpretation -- Manziel's interpretation. Manziel might counter that Lynch misunderstood that he conceded a lack of required study habits for most of the season. At the same time, Lynch is a solid analyst who doesn't open his mouth to hear himself talk, nor has he picked a side in Hoyer vs. Manziel. Lynch must have gotten his information from somewhere credible, if not Manziel, or he never would have tweaked him.

 

 

Summary: One game does not a career make, but there is no sugarcoating the Weedenesque ugliness of this one. Problems occurred around Manziel, no question, but he is most responsible for the ineffectiveness of his first NFL start. He never appeared comfortable and repeatedly made poor throws. The Bengals toyed with him; they treated Johnny Football and Money Manziel as punchlines.

 

Final grade: F

[Westside Steve]

The card playing reference was this. Once we wanted to learn to play Pinochle. So a couple of us studied and studied the hoyle book games. It took like forever and we'd given up. Then we sat in with a couple guys at the Student Union and just started playing. It really went a lot easier and better than reading the book. That's all. Live game experience in my opinion is far far far superior to reading a playbook. And there's still no real evidence he didn't do that. But you get my point?

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

Some people learn far better by doing, others, by reading.

 

Some people with learning disabilities learn by hearing a test.

 

Some never learn at all. Broadway Johnny best learn it quickly, by whatever method, by next

game, because the Carolina defense is a lot like the Cincy defense.

[tiamat63]

Some people learn far better by doing, others, by reading.

 

Some people with learning disabilities learn by hearing a test.

 

Some never learn at all. Broadway Johnny best learn it quickly, by whatever method, by next

game, because the Carolina defense is a lot like the Cincy defense.

 

Yeah, except with a way better front 7.

[Mudfly]

First, you leave JM in. Playoffs gone. It's his now.

 

And with the playoffs gone and that terrible outing out of the way, the big pressure should be off.

 

So is the Panther game still something we need to win or has it evolved to just being a practice game for Johnny?

 

I would imagine learning process is similar to learning to play a card game or a song.

 

Playing live music is the perfect analogy! And as a drummer, I can relate 100%......cause I could practice, practice practice.....woodshed to a CD for a month.....and still be clueless when I sit in with the band for the first time.

 

I sometimes play with some fantastic musicians at Jam nights, but can tell you its usually a train wreck musically.....it might be fun, but definitely not pretty.....

 

[jrb12711]

Just throwing this up there for the practice vs game-time: People raved at how good Billy "the weiner" Cundiff kicked in practice.

 

Had to say it haha.

[USFBrown]

Just read this article: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/12/johnny_manziel_dmans_report_ga.html

 

SPOILER ALERT: Obviously since I posted the link it lends some support to my prep postulate...

 

 

 

Interesting insight from the outside: Manziel did not play like a quarterback who had training camp and 14 weeks to prepare for his starting debut. Maybe it is because he did not, in fact, steadily prepare as needed.

 

In the final minutes Sunday, as Fox showed Manziel sitting on the bench with his head down, analyst and former standout defensive back John Lynch spoke of an interaction he had with Manziel: "The best quarterbacks in this league, they're the hardest workers in the building. Johnny Manziel was, this week -- by all accounts. All year, he hasn't been. And I asked him: 'Are you willing to do that?' He said, 'Well, this week was a good start.' He was stand-up. I think he didn't argue that he hasn't been. He said, 'This was a good start.' And we'll see from here, and I think that will go a long way in determining his success.''

 

Obviously, Lynch saying, "I think he didn't argue that he hasn't been'' left plenty open to interpretation -- Manziel's interpretation. Manziel might counter that Lynch misunderstood that he conceded a lack of required study habits for most of the season. At the same time, Lynch is a solid analyst who doesn't open his mouth to hear himself talk, nor has he picked a side in Hoyer vs. Manziel. Lynch must have gotten his information from somewhere credible, if not Manziel, or he never would have tweaked him.

 

 

Summary: One game does not a career make, but there is no sugarcoating the Weedenesque ugliness of this one. Problems occurred around Manziel, no question, but he is most responsible for the ineffectiveness of his first NFL start. He never appeared comfortable and repeatedly made poor throws. The Bengals toyed with him; they treated Johnny Football and Money Manziel as punchlines.

 

Final grade: F

Heard that from lynch during the game. Definitely hit the nail on the head.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Woo hoo. Tour de dick head has another anti JFF post.

[Tour2ma]

Actually that was Tiamat63 s point; that both quarterbacks were getting first team reps. At least that's the one I was responding to.

In that case... nevermind...

 

The card playing reference was this. Once we wanted to learn to play Pinochle. So a couple of us studied and studied the hoyle book games. It took like forever and we'd given up. Then we sat in with a couple guys at the Student Union and just started playing. It really went a lot easier and better than reading the book. That's all. Live game experience in my opinion is far far far superior to reading a playbook. And there's still no real evidence he didn't do that. But you get my point?

Disagree on the evidence, but whatever. As for your point... maybe... just maybe I was being purposely dense.

 

Golf... You can hit balls until your callouses have callouses. Draw, fade, high, low... become a four-star range master. Pitch, chip and putt until the caddymaster chases you home.

 

Doesn't mean shit until you do it on the course. And if all you play is casually; doesn't mean shit in your first tourney...

 

Practice does not always make perfect. Kinda what you were getting at?

 

Playing live music is the perfect analogy! And as a drummer, I can relate 100%......cause I could practice, practice practice.....woodshed to a CD for a month.....and still be clueless when I sit in with the band for the first time.

 

I sometimes play with some fantastic musicians at Jam nights, but can tell you its usually a train wreck musically.....it might be fun, but definitely not pretty.....

We're not mathematically eliminated... yet, but were only a 1 in 11 shot now.

 

So let's talk top five drummers...

Mine:

Billy Cobham, Carl Palmer, Keith Moon, Mitch Mitchell and Gene Krupa.

Honorable mention to one-time, Santana wunderkind, Michael Shrieve... probably a couple others I'm forgetting.

[Tour2ma]

Woo hoo. Tour de dick head has another anti JFF post.

LOL... man, you are a riot. Stop it you're killin' me... So effin' funny. So effin' clever. Can't believe you're posting gold like this for free...

 

Here's one for you... What's the difference between objectivity and bias?

[Mudfly]

 

So let's talk top five drummers...

Mine:

Billy Cobham, Carl Palmer, Keith Moon, Mitch Mitchell and Gene Krupa.

Honorable mention to one-time, Santana wunderkind, Michael Shrieve... probably a couple others I'm forgetting.

Always game to talk drummers....though the angry fans may not like it....Ill go with my favorites, because "best ever" just never works out...try it with QB's sometime to see what I mean ....hahaha.....and this stuffreally rages at my drum board, just like Johnny and Hoyer...

 

My main influences/favorites growing up were the standards...Got started with Ringo and obsessed over Bonham & Peart thru my youth.....But, now Steve Gadd is EASILY my favorite drummer.....by 500 miles.....and then some....

 

I loved watching the Krupa story when I was a kid....and have mad appreciation for Carl Palmer and Mitch Mitchell....strangely, I always enjoyed Santana and liked Shrieves playing at woodstock, but Graham Lear was always my favorite Santana drummer....fwiw

 

And.....GO BROWNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tour2ma]

Cool... even if I had to Google Gadd.

Started a top 5 drummer thread in an Audio forum years ago. Moon and Mitchell were two I had overlooked. Just did not think of Mitchell "that way" and, brace yourself, never really noticed Moon that much. A fellow member's posts sent me back to my Jimi and Who collections for some serious review.

Moon was the shocker... never heard a drummer pack so much into songs with out intruding on the song. Later I watched a "Behind the Music" or some such on Keith. It was all about how Townsend tried and failed to reign in Moon until he realized that the way Keith stuffed a tune worked.

Billy is just my guy. I know all drummers are ambidextrous to some degree, but Cobham is totally so. Once saw a vid of him playing the same bit on mirror image kits. I've followed him from the relatively unknown group Dreams through John McLaughlin and the Mahavishnu Orchestra and into his solo work. His power, control and timing just blow me away.

Just wish JM's would do the same... Guess we're back to football now...

[TexasAg1969]

OK-some perspective here on first game play, e.g. Aaron Rodgers: 8-15, 65 yards, 2 INT (2005). Should have traded him right away, obviously not NFL material.

[tiamat63]

OK-some perspective here on first game play, e.g. Aaron Rodgers: 8-15, 65 yards, 2 INT (2005). Should have traded him right away, obviously not NFL material.

 

 

Wrongo. His first NFL pre-season game was 2 of 7. The stats you list are over the course of an entire pre-season.

 

edit: I apologize, his stats have him listed at 8-15 65 yards and ONE INT. That was from the near end of the 3rd QTr to the 4th.

Those stats are much more acceptable given his limited game time exposure. Money Badger couldn't help the offense put a single point on the board in a full 60 minutes.

 

double edit: Just want to clarify that was against the Ravens in a 45-3 blowout.

[Edwardejw]

Manziel sucked the pickle, I'm not defending him. But I'd like to start a discussion as to why Shanahan fundamentally changed the entire offense to a system that has shown consistently does NOT WORK in the NFL. Hey jackass, your boy toy RG3 got destroyed with the read-option, it's not any different now. Anyone care to join in on that?

 

Also, you don't lose like we did today because of one player. My opinion is the whole team expected Manziel to come out like Jesus and when he didn't it killed the whole game.

 

You make a good point but to me what killed the whole game was the roughing penalty on Barkevious. It set them back on their heels and that was what Jeremy needed to run roughshod over them. What was it, 90+ yards in the first half? He'd hit holes and by the time we reacted he had 5 yards.

.