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Browns claim DB Tyvis Powell


LondonBrown

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So...while we have barely signed anybody, the few that we have signed dont seem to be great pick ups OR bargains.....

 

Here's hoping Britt and Zeitler are worth it.......(cause we sure know last years star FA...Davis....wasnt)

Britt got Pryors deal. call it a draw. We finally absorbed some cost on guys we needed to re-sign..Collins,Bitonio,Kirksey, A true Center was a must (we even extended a LS'er & Punter) did we ever have a doubt ;)

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Britt got Pryors deal. call it a draw.

Im gonna call it overpaid....and knee jerk(which is why he got Pryors deal)........

 

He's the 12th highest paid WR in the league.....what indicates he's worth that?....certainly not his production from his first 9 years....

 

How could we condemn Bowe as a terrible signing, but praise Britt as a great one, when Bowe way out produced Britt and then signed for less?....wasnt the knock that he had too much guaranteed $ for an old guy?.....yet, here we are with another old guy(with less production) and a bigger guaranteed contract....

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How could we condemn Bowe as a terrible signing, but praise Britt as a great one, when Bowe way out produced Britt and then signed for less?....wasnt the knock that he had too much guaranteed $ for an old guy?.....yet, here we are with another old guy(with less production) and a bigger guaranteed contract....

Bowe was 31 when came on board.Britt will turn 29 this Sept. Bowe's deal was 2yrs.13M,9M guaranteed. Britt 4yrs. 32.5M wow 17M guaranteed..Britt may not have had much support with some of the QB's throwing him the ball? Hope that changes as #1 here. Bowe I still swear was a parting gift from Ray's Farm sponsored by Jimmas Flyin J's profits. I truly hope coach Pettine finds a way back in this league..Pet got so screwed as a zookeeper but knew his players talent-less roster. Coach Pet did lose his father last season..

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Well, ya could wait and see how he produces rather than project based on past?

 

Im not projecting anything.....Im looking back and comparing the response to his signing with the response to Bowes signing(which also came before he played a snap).....

 

dude is 9 yrs in the league, which makes it easy to establish value.....my only point is that he was paid all-pro - top of the league type of money and doesnt have the numbers to support that.....none the less, he might be the best WR we have.....just overpaid and, likely, to be on the downside of his career.....

 

You wanna call it a great signing, then do so.....I say it's a desperation move as a reaction to losing out on Pryor.....

 

Im gonna call it overpaid....and knee jerk(which is why he got Pryors deal)........

 

He's the 12th highest paid WR in the league.....what indicates he's worth that?....certainly not his production from his first 9 years....

 

How could we condemn Bowe as a terrible signing, but praise Britt as a great one, when Bowe way out produced Britt and then signed for less?....wasnt the knock that he had too much guaranteed $ for an old guy?.....yet, here we are with another old guy(with less production) and a bigger guaranteed contract....

 

Bowe was 31 when came on board.Britt will turn 29 this Sept. Bowe's deal was 2yrs.13M,9M guaranteed. Britt 4yrs. 32.5M wow 17M guaranteed..Britt may not have had much support with some of the QB's throwing him the ball? Hope that changes as #1 here. Bowe I still swear was a parting gift from Ray's Farm sponsored by Jimmas Flyin J's profits. I truly hope coach Pettine finds a way back in this league..Pet got so screwed as a zookeeper but knew his players talent-less roster. Coach Pet did lose his father last season..

Wow is right.....and, yep, I agree with the Pettine thing.....he got a raw deal. But we have moved on and Im sure he will too.....

 

I'm going to guess we have a few more million laying around now than we did in 2015.

 

Nevertheless, I do agree it was a questionable signing.

Probably......but we were pretty fat back then too.....and, honestly, I dont care about Haslams money or how much each player makes.....I only respond or go after the hypocrisy I see in the reactions to those signings......where the Bowe signing gets attacked and the Britt signing is hailed as brilliant....yet, on paper, they are almost exactly the same.....with Britts being slightly more ridiculous...

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Im gonna call it overpaid....and knee jerk(which is why he got Pryors deal)........

 

He's the 12th highest paid WR in the league.....what indicates he's worth that?....certainly not his production from his first 9 years....

 

How could we condemn Bowe as a terrible signing, but praise Britt as a great one, when Bowe way out produced Britt and then signed for less?....wasnt the knock that he had too much guaranteed $ for an old guy?.....yet, here we are with another old guy(with less production) and a bigger guaranteed contract....

 

12th by what measure? Britt's $8.1mm/yr average salary is 19th in the league and with 11 WRs at $11mm or more is clearly 2nd tier money.

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver

 

As for being happy with the Britt vs. the Bowe signing... for me it starts with Britt looking like he still wants to play and having the tools to do so.

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I see your point about the hypocrisy. It's hard to cheer one acquisition while admonishing another. At first glance these deals are similar but upon further inspection, they are light years apart.

 

The Bowe move was indicative of the prior regimes overall rationale - bring in familiar names and faces.

 

Farmer brought in a 30 year old WR fresh off a 700 yard/ 0TD year because he was buddies with him. Farmer was VP of Pro Personnel in KC when Bowe was drafted and was familiar with him, and when the pressure was applied to Farmer about his lack of WR's, he went out and signed a friend.

 

Conversely, the Britt signing is seemingly indicative of this regimes overall rationale - bring in underperforming, highly talent players and see if you can fix them. Taylor, Pryor, other Pryor, Collins, RG3, Moore, Kizer, Osweiler, Brantley - all fit in that mold.

 

Obviously, some were whiffs...but it looks like others might become key pieces. It remains to be seen what happens with Britt...but the reason for excitement for me lies in why we made the move and not necessarily the move itself. That's where I see the difference.

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As for being happy with the Britt vs. the Bowe signing... for me it starts with Britt looking like he still wants to play and having the tools to do so.

But....were we able to make that assessment prior to them being signed?.....because my whole point is what we are saying about the signing....nothing else.....but, Ill move on from the whole Britt thing, cause god only knows we need WR's(still)....and Im certain he will be better for us than Bowe was....

 

I see your point about the hypocrisy. It's hard to cheer one acquisition while admonishing another. At first glance these deals are similar but upon further inspection, they are light years apart.

 

The Bowe move was indicative of the prior regimes overall rationale - bring in familiar names and faces.

 

Farmer brought in a 30 year old WR fresh off a 700 yard/ 0TD year because he was buddies with him. Farmer was VP of Pro Personnel in KC when Bowe was drafted and was familiar with him, and when the pressure was applied to Farmer about his lack of WR's, he went out and signed a friend.

 

Conversely, the Britt signing is seemingly indicative of this regimes overall rationale - bring in underperforming, highly talent players and see if you can fix them. Taylor, Pryor, other Pryor, Collins, RG3, Moore, Kizer, Osweiler, Brantley - all fit in that mold.

 

Obviously, some were whiffs...but it looks like others might become key pieces. It remains to be seen what happens with Britt...but the reason for excitement for me lies in why we made the move and not necessarily the move itself. That's where I see the difference.

Honestly...I cant get behind this explanation completely......because it implies we know what was in the FO's mind(s) and their thought process....IE: Do you actually think Bowe was Farmers friend?...as opposed to a player who performed well, while Farmer was with the same team?.....Id guess Farmer just had more faith in him, than some guys he was unfamiliar with....(even tho he was wrong)....

 

And, with this FO, are we saying their strategy is to sign bad players and hope they get good?.....cause thats how it feels.....so, Id agree with that part of your reply....

 

Yet....I keep hearing how this FO doesnt do that anymore(bring in problem children)........Now it's only top performing - high character guys going fwd...

 

And thats where I just see more than the normal allotment of hypocrisy......

 

We dont have druggies anymore....yet find a way to justify Peppers and Paytons screw ups....

 

We dont have slackers or character issues anymore.....yet justify guys like Britt, Brantley and, now, perhaps C. Coleman.....

 

We only want guys who take coaching.....yet sign Collins and draft Kizer....both guys who "presumably" havent in the past.....

 

We have money ball guy, who will get quality players(for less)....yet we have added Tretter, Taylor, Britt and Osweiler....all with silly contracts......

 

We finally have a great coaching staff....yet fire the whole defensive side after one season.....

 

I could go on and on(and I know I do)....but it is what it is.....

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Mud,

 

I see nothing wrong with signing underachieving players with apparent talent in hopes that that talent will come through. Especially if there is no cost in terms of draft picks. If things don't work, let them go and move on and stay calm.

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Mud,

 

I see nothing wrong with signing underachieving players with apparent talent in hopes that that talent will come through. Especially if there is no cost in terms of draft picks. If things don't work, let them go and move on and stay calm.

Technically....there is nothing wrong with it.....all teams do it......

 

My points are about the hypocritical praise given to this FO for doing things that the previous regimes have be villainized for......

 

With this group(as it was for Farmer originally)...."turn every stone" is called a great strategy......pick em up try em out and see if they improve IS a great strategy...until they become bad signings and the cop out reasons to fire someone....

 

Aren't you the guy who bitched and bitched about Farmer constantly churning the bottom of the roster and what a waste of time it was?.....(no need to answer....you are).....(as if anybody can churn the top).......

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But....were we able to make that assessment prior to them being signed?.....because my whole point is what we are saying about the signing....nothing else.....but, Ill move on from the whole Britt thing, cause god only knows we need WR's(still)....and Im certain he will be better for us than Bowe was....

 

I think Williams provided the input on Britt. Seeing a guy everyday in practice... seeing the problems he presented for your D go a long way.

 

As to Bowe... and your comment immediately below... I think Farmer was stuck and went with who he knew.... or at least thought he knew. Friendship was likely not a factor.

 

Honestly...I cant get behind this explanation completely......because it implies we know what was in the FO's mind(s) and their thought process....IE: Do you actually think Bowe was Farmers friend?...as opposed to a player who performed well, while Farmer was with the same team?.....Id guess Farmer just had more faith in him, than some guys he was unfamiliar with....(even tho he was wrong)....

 

And, with this FO, are we saying their strategy is to sign bad players and hope they get good?.....cause thats how it feels.....so, Id agree with that part of your reply....

 

Yet....I keep hearing how this FO doesnt do that anymore(bring in problem children)........Now it's only top performing - high character guys going fwd... And thats where I just see more than the normal allotment of hypocrisy......

  • We dont have druggies anymore....yet find a way to justify Peppers and Paytons screw ups....
  • We dont have slackers or character issues anymore.....yet justify guys like Britt, Brantley and, now, perhaps C. Coleman.....
  • We only want guys who take coaching.....yet sign Collins and draft Kizer....both guys who "presumably" havent in the past.....
  • We have money ball guy, who will get quality players(for less)....yet we have added Tretter, Taylor, Britt and Osweiler....all with silly contracts......
  • We finally have a great coaching staff....yet fire the whole defensive side after one season.....
I could go on and on(and I know I do)....but it is what it is.....

And you will... ;)... Mind some company? On the other side of the street...

  1. Peppers was a diluted positive so I am inclined to give mine the benefit of the doubt... for now. Payton's transgression was of the "performance enhancement" variety, possibly of the GNC supplement variety. Giving him a little rookie-ignorance, benefit of the doubt... plus Haden turned out alright.
  2. Character-wise as a hard-working core develops teams can afford to take a few chances knowing the Locker Room is there to help "troubled" prospects find the true path... and some of these prospects are the best values in a given draft. Work-ethically speaking? Pretty much the same... add in a motivational coach who is willing to take on a challenge and the odds of production are good. Brantley in the 6th was a bit in both camps. Looks in his case like one down and one to go, but with a leg up thanks to his motivational coach. Next question will arise if and when his contract comes around... is he a Haynesworth? Coleman? TBD... Britt? Not sure why you listed him.
  3. Accepting coaching: I get Collins, but some players are not made for "rigid" systems. LT wasn't... and while Collins is not LT, he might be even better on a longer leash. Pretty sure he'll get one, if Williams thinks he's earned it. Kizer? Seems more like a coaching quality question to me at ND...
  4. "Silly contracts": Feels like you set up a bit of a Catch 22 (one of my favorite books) here damning DePo for not paying up for some talent, but then damning him for doing so in other cases. Since you know that in our current situation we have to pay a premium for FAs, I have to assume you simply disagree on the "talent" signed. Brock is a special case. If healthy, Tretter's a bargain fill at a position of need. Taylor earned his contract in 2016. Britt? See above... Interesting that you did not mention Zeitler, who may be our greatest "overpay" of all. $12mm per for a RG? Kinda steep... even considering the intradivisional "steal" factor.
  5. Pretty sure this point on the "great staff" was "/s", but I am very sure you were not the biggest Horton backer. Add other comments you've made about Williams and there's really no distance between us here. We simply traded up on the D-side.
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I think Williams provided the input on Britt. Seeing a guy everyday in practice... seeing the problems he presented for your D go a long way.

 

As to Bowe... and your comment immediately below... I think Farmer was stuck and went with who he knew.... or at least thought he knew. Friendship was likely not a factor.

 

And you will... ;)... Mind some company? On the other side of the street...

  1. Peppers was a diluted positive so I am inclined to give mine the benefit of the doubt... for now. Payton's transgression was of the "performance enhancement" variety, possibly of the GNC supplement variety. Giving him a little rookie-ignorance, benefit of the doubt... plus Haden turned out alright.
  2. Character-wise as a hard-working core develops teams can afford to take a few chances knowing the Locker Room is there to help "troubled" prospects find the true path... and some of these prospects are the best values in a given draft. Work-ethically speaking? Pretty much the same... add in a motivational coach who is willing to take on a challenge and the odds of production are good. Brantley in the 6th was a bit in both camps. Looks in his case like one down and one to go, but with a leg up thanks to his motivational coach. Next question will arise if and when his contract comes around... is he a Haynesworth? Coleman? TBD... Britt? Not sure why you listed him.
  3. Accepting coaching: I get Collins, but some players are not made for "rigid" systems. LT wasn't... and while Collins is not LT, he might be even better on a longer leash. Pretty sure he'll get one, if Williams thinks he's earned it. Kizer? Seems more like a coaching quality question to me at ND...
  4. "Silly contracts": Feels like you set up a bit of a Catch 22 (one of my favorite books) here damning DePo for not paying up for some talent, but then damning him for doing so in other cases. Since you know that in our current situation we have to pay a premium for FAs, I have to assume you simply disagree on the "talent" signed. Brock is a special case. If healthy, Tretter's a bargain fill at a position of need. Taylor earned his contract in 2016. Britt? See above... Interesting that you did not mention Zeitler, who may be our greatest "overpay" of all. $12mm per for a RG? Kinda steep... even considering the intradivisional "steal" factor.
  5. Pretty sure this point on the "great staff" was "/s", but I am very sure you were not the biggest Horton backer. Add other comments you've made about Williams and there's really no distance between us here. We simply traded up on the D-side.

 

As usual....a well thought out reply.....I can always count on you to put a reasonable twist on things.....

 

Maybe I just need a break from the Browns......and should quietly go away and wait till they win......

 

My bitchin above....."about the hypocrisy".....isnt really directed at the FO or Browns.....more at the people claiming huge differences in this regime, compared the last few......And, while you made some well thought out arguments, they are all "justifications", which is exactly what Im talking about......

 

Look....it's early......I see lots of potential shit coming down the pike with our last 2 drafts.....possibly some good shit too.....

 

The only difference (for me) is that Im no longer taking the bait before I know what it is.....no longer just loving picks, because they are Browns.....there is nothing wrong with asking the hard questions and making them show me the goods, before I buy......

 

I see BIG potential.......both ways......

 

Which means......I see the possibility that Garrett could be great.....or oft injured......I see Peppers is multi talented, but also is in the league drug program from day 1(and now a hold out)......I see Njoku has mad skills, but is undeveloped......I see Brantley being called a bargain, but has character AND effort issues.......I see Corey Coleman had great college stats, but is chronically injured, drops balls and has potential legal issues,......I see Shon Coleman was projected high, but has knee problems and hasnt really performed well so far.....I love Nassibs motor, but see he was owned consistently in real game action......I see weve added 5-6 WR's, but seem to be getting worse at that position......I see a new breed of FO(lawyer and baseball guy) who have done some good things, but also have done some stupid stupid things......I see a coaching staff with strong personalities, but one that(I think) has trouble on game days and in player evaluations.....

 

So...............with ALL these questions........I cannot just blindly buy in......(not anymore, at least)......there was a day I would have......but, now, just cannot......kind of the ole jilted lover syndrome, I do believe....

 

Its not all bad.....but, like folks think I refuse to see the positives(which I dont believe is the case).....I am willing to see the negatives as well......and when I see the posts claiming greatness(following last seasons debacle) I cannot keep quiet about it.....

 

I'd like nothing more than to be wrong......but will not accept that until it's proven out,,,,,,and will continue to be counter point mud, when I see the perceived silliness of how great this FO, these players or this Coaching staff is......

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As usual....a well thought out reply.....I can always count on you to put a reasonable twist on things.....

 

Maybe I just need a break from the Browns......and should quietly go away and wait till they win...

 

Nah...

 

We split on the whole "football guy/decider" necessity in the FO a while back. I like the consensus approach; you craved "the decider". That split has by and large set our paths for the time being with me in the "half-full" camp and you in the "half-empty"... not across the board in either of our cases, but overall.

 

We both need more data. But for now we are in a data desert with just a dribble of it every now and then... with Training Camp is still a month away. Until then it's quite reasonable to dial back discussion (pretty dull around here lately anyway)... but not shut it down.

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Technically....there is nothing wrong with it.....all teams do it......

 

My points are about the hypocritical praise given to this FO for doing things that the previous regimes have be villainized for......

 

With this group(as it was for Farmer originally)...."turn every stone" is called a great strategy......pick em up try em out and see if they improve IS a great strategy...until they become bad signings and the cop out reasons to fire someone....

 

Aren't you the guy who bitched and bitched about Farmer constantly churning the bottom of the roster and what a waste of time it was?.....(no need to answer....you are).....(as if anybody can churn the top).......

I did have some criticism of that...because he was constantly churning the bottom of the roster during the season....where it seemed however that he gave little attention to the top and middle of the roster by not acquiring decent players.

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Nah...

 

We split on the whole "football guy/decider" necessity in the FO a while back. I like the consensus approach; you craved "the decider". That split has by and large set our paths for the time being with me in the "half-full" camp and you in the "half-empty"... not across the board in either of our cases, but overall.

 

We both need more data. But for now we are in a data desert with just a dribble of it every now and then... with Training Camp is still a month away. Until then it's quite reasonable to dial back discussion (pretty dull around here lately anyway)... but not shut it down.

Got another consensus question.....a "real" question.....not being difficult....

 

Today, on Browns radio, they were discussing that Shashi has final say on the 53 man roster.....so, obviously, my question is how does that work?

 

Now, last year, I got a very strong vibe from Hue that he was not happy with some of the late cuts......clearly......So, if Hue isnt selecting his roster, how does Shashi go about that?(especially since he's a lawyer and not a football guy)....and would his criteria be something other than retaining the "best players"??.....IE $$$$....OR....play my picks, instead of the best players?

 

Cause if Hue wants them, dont you think he should get them?

 

Honest beans...legit question....

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I did have some criticism of that...because he was constantly churning the bottom of the roster during the season....where it seemed however that he gave little attention to the top and middle of the roster by not acquiring decent players.

How do you churn the top or middle during the season?(or anytime)....where does one get players through the season, if not off the scrap heap?

 

Look if you find a great player(or any player), you add him to the team, then drop someone from the bottom....thats how it works.....every time.....but, usually, the players that are available are already bottom tier....you can only churn what you can

 

Edit: actually...I have to correct myself....last 2 years, the Browns have been adding lots of aspiring players to the bottom, whilst chopping some of their middle and top tier(starters) players to make room....

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Got another consensus question.....a "real" question.....not being difficult....

 

Today, on Browns radio, they were discussing that Shashi has final say on the 53 man roster.....so, obviously, my question is how does that work?

 

Now, last year, I got a very strong vibe from Hue that he was not happy with some of the late cuts......clearly......So, if Hue isnt selecting his roster, how does Shashi go about that?(especially since he's a lawyer and not a football guy)....and would his criteria be something other than retaining the "best players"??.....IE $$$$....OR....play my picks, instead of the best players?

 

Cause if Hue wants them, dont you think he should get them?

 

Honest beans...legit question....

He has final say, not only say. I imagine he hears the opinions of dozens of football guys before making the cuts.

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I doubt he hears dozens of voices let alone opinions given the hierarchy of our organization. More like dozens of voices get distilled into three or four reports with positions on players and supporting data/reports.

 

How do you churn the top or middle during the season?(or anytime)....where does one get players through the season, if not off the scrap heap?

 

Look if you find a great player(or any player), you add him to the team, then drop someone from the bottom....thats how it works.....every time.....but, usually, the players that are available are already bottom tier....you can only churn what you can

 

Edit: actually...I have to correct myself....last 2 years, the Browns have been adding lots of aspiring players to the bottom, whilst chopping some of their middle and top tier(starters) players to make room....

 

First... no need to qualify any question you have in our discussions... ever. Now onto the question...

 

I go back to what Sashi is... a process manager. The final 53, the responsibility of nearly every GM in the league, is a player evaluation process, same as the draft, same as FA. Our Scouting and Analytics Departments, both under Sashi, will produce reports on our players thru TC and Preseason same as they will those on other teams. These will be considered along with those of Hue & Co.

 

And the consensus process begins...

 

Of the 37 cuts 25 to 30 of them are probably easy, no-brainer unanimous agreements. Maybe half of the remaining 7 to 12 are then fairly easy consensus to reach once all the views are shared. So that leaves 5 or so that are harder for all parties to accept, but even most of those will likely reach consensus... maybe grudgingly, but consensus. That leaves 2 or 3 that are contentious and some baby-cleaving likely comes in where someone gets one of their guys and someone else gets one of theirs.

 

The weaker the consensus the more vulnerable the player to churning.

 

Now when it comes time to churn (or not to churn) for any given waived player, that decision will fall more to the Departments and not the Staff. obvious reason is the Staff isn't in a position to know waived players as well as the Scouts will. Trust really comes into play in these cases.

 

 

One thought hit me on the volume of churning we've seen recently. High churn volume can only exist when you are at or near the bottom of the league for two reasons:

  • your roster is among the league's weakest, so the odds of improving with castoffs is greatest; and
  • since waiver claims have a bottom to top pecking order you are only in a position to lay claims in any volume near the bottom.
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