Babernakle Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 In the past the Cowboys have been the poster child of flash before talent. Jerry finallygrew up and got a line for his team. The Browns should follow suit. With the emergence of the running game and the line missing a bit an ol should be our top pick. And keep Hoyer and not take another qb let it come to us instead of for forcing it. As the cowboy took to ball out of romo's hand. Do the same take the pressure off of Hoyer. Then get rid of the distractions Manziel and Gilbert keep skrinne and get some pass rushers free agent trade or in the draft. And the third thing is to trade gordon or get him a baby sitter. As well as get another wr opposite of his cooper or white. We have got to move past this dam dumb notion you have to have a top ten qb to win. The raven won it all with dilfer. Fix the lines get a wr that will catch the ball and things will correct them selves. The cards and Hawks did this and Wilson fell into there lap and the cards are right where the Hawks were two hours ago everything but the qb. And be honest with your selves is there anybody that is better the Hoyer at this point the Browns can get or draft and the answer is no. And if I was to project cardell jones will be the best qb to come out since luck and wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 In the past the Cowboys have been the poster child of flash before talent. Jerry finallygrew up and got a line for his team. The Browns should follow suit. With the emergence of the running game and the line missing a bit an ol should be our top pick. And keep Hoyer and not take another qb let it come to us instead of for forcing it. As the cowboy took to ball out of romo's hand. Do the same take the pressure off of Hoyer. Then get rid of the distractions Manziel and Gilbert keep skrinne and get some pass rushers free agent trade or in the draft. And the third thing is to trade gordon or get him a baby sitter. As well as get another wr opposite of his cooper or white. We have got to move past this dam dumb notion you have to have a top ten qb to win. The raven won it all with dilfer. Fix the lines get a wr that will catch the ball and things will correct them selves. The cards and Hawks did this and Wilson fell into there lap and the cards are right where the Hawks were two hours ago everything but the qb. And be honest with your selves is there anybody that is better the Hoyer at this point the Browns can get or draft and the answer is no. And if I was to project cardell jones will be the best qb to come out since luck and wilson Agree. I thought we should get rid of Gordon but maybe Pettine has a better answer to keep him and bench him if he is not giving 100 percent. He is the big play receiver any team would want but his drug test issues and motivation are big liabilities. I would not be opposed to letting him go if we could get a good trade for him though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 it will be interesting to hear whether we stick with exactly the same offensive and defensive schemes for next year as that will determine our moves. I would think that a WR is going to be sought after in free agency cause I can't imagine they're going to saddle the next OC with Gordon as the only #1. I see Gordon having an extremely short leash next year if he's even on the team. I'm all for trading Gordon if we get something for him. Defensively if we switch more to how Buffalo was running their defense when Pettine was there, might change what kind of pass rushers we go after. They may go after a more prototype 4-3 DE/DT like Mario Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Every forum we see trade Gordo, and yes he's turned Randy Moss like, will not block and lazy till his numbers called. But honestly what is he worth with his background to other teams? A 2nd or 3rd rounder if were lucky. I don't see it's worth it for the backup talent. Next year is a contract year?? I Bet He Play's Well and We cannot give up on any Talent at WR at this Point.. Yes call it crazy but we are not drafting Amari Cooper with Gordon's value I don't think?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Every forum we see trade Gordo, and yes he's turned Randy Moss like, will not block and lazy till his numbers called. But honestly what is he worth with his background to other teams? A 2nd or 3rd rounder if were lucky. I don't see it's worth it for the backup talent. Next year is a contract year?? I Bet He Play's Well and We cannot give up on any Talent at WR at this Point.. Yes call it crazy but we are not drafting Amari Cooper with Gordon's value I don't think?? no you probably don't get anything for him in a straight up trade, I dunno maybe Indy would be tempted to see what Luck could accomplish with him...god that would be something if we could offload another bust on Indy...but anyway, package him with something else and then I think you'd get takers. I see your point about being thin at WR but that's why we go heavy after a WR in FA this offseason. In the draft there's probably not gonna be a #1 where we pick..but that's ok we should be using the high picks on defense anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7moses7 Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 package a trade to the Cowboys Josh Gordon, Johnny Fuckstain, for Gavin Escobar and a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Gordon is a crap shoot for sure but you won't find a number free agent even close to his cap number next year. Add that to fact that Antonio Brown almost had as many receiving yards as our top 3 WRs combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 package a trade to the Cowboys Josh Gordon, Johnny Fuckstain, for Gavin Escobar and a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Manziel doesn't sweeten a trade he hinders it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Gordon is a crap shoot for sure but you won't find a number free agent even close to his cap number next year. Add that to fact that Antonio Brown almost had as many receiving yards as our top 3 WRs combined. That's true but remember your point about Cardale Jones. When the running back or running backs are running wild you don't need to throw very much. Case in point the success of the Browns the first 10 games. I would expect the odds are against another drug bust. He's not expensive and does have talent. The worst that can happen is he sucks. The best? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 That's true but remember your point about Cardale Jones. When the running back or running backs are running wild you don't need to throw very much. Case in point the success of the Browns the first 10 games. I would expect the odds are against another drug bust. He's not expensive and does have talent. The worst that can happen is he sucks. The best? WSS Without an effective passing game I fear we'd get Jacksonville'd more often. I do agree though that an "effective" passing game when you run the ball really well is 13-20 150 1TD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Nobody has wasted more money and more high draft picks on the OL than the Browns. For example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoundDawg Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think we should re-sign Hoyer. We desperately need continuity in the leadership role on the offensive side of the ball. With our OC being new...again...Hoyer is the best option. I see no reason to sign one of the other free agents that will be available as none of them are significantly better. With Hoyer we know he can win in the division, which is where turning things around starts. What do we gain by bringing in Sanchez? He will want paid to come to Cleveland like any other guy. Lets just pay the one we know. I think too many people have given up too quick on Hoyer. I know he struggled down the stretch, but, IMO, that's not reason enough to start over again. He won some really good games for us. Admit it, we all had our chests puffed out when we throttled Pittspuke and the 'Nasty. His best games were against division opponents. How great would it be to go into next season knowing we have a shot to at least split the division games? Baby steps, folks. We're all so battle worn that we just want a quick fix, but I don't believe it will ever happen that way for us. We need stability first and Hoyer can provide that. Hoyer's struggles had as much to do with defenses figuring out Shanahan as they did with Hoyer. We also have to remember this was his first full season, and he was coming off a knee injury that normally takes two years to recover from. So he was basically a rookie as far as game experience, but with a veteran knowledge of the game. He's already been groomed by better than anything we've ever had in Tom Brady. I don't see how having him back sets us back at all. It's better than trusting lil Johnny to do the right thing, and better than starting over. Unless a team is willing to trade us their franchise QB, Hoyer is our best option. I also think a lot of Hoyer's struggles were brought on by all the pressure of Johnny Football that weren't about the game itself. He was trying to maintain confidence with all the noise and a monkey hanging on his back. Winston is a head case. This team cannot afford anymore head cases, especially at the most important position. I'm scared of Mariota. Good kid, but the toughness it takes to compete in the AFCN...just don't see it in him. Plus, he's another system guy. Draft a guy later in the draft. One that runs a more pro style offense and let Hoyer teach him the pro game until he's ready. Or if he comes out of the gate and outplays Hoyer...a la Russell Wilson, then by all means, start him right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think we should re-sign Hoyer. We desperately need continuity in the leadership role on the offensive side of the ball. With our OC being new...again...Hoyer is the best option. I see no reason to sign one of the other free agents that will be available as none of them are significantly better. With Hoyer we know he can win in the division, which is where turning things around starts. What do we gain by bringing in Sanchez? He will want paid to come to Cleveland like any other guy. Lets just pay the one we know. I think too many people have given up too quick on Hoyer. I know he struggled down the stretch, but, IMO, that's not reason enough to start over again. He won some really good games for us. Admit it, we all had our chests puffed out when we throttled Pittspuke and the 'Nasty. His best games were against division opponents. How great would it be to go into next season knowing we have a shot to at least split the division games? Baby steps, folks. We're all so battle worn that we just want a quick fix, but I don't believe it will ever happen that way for us. We need stability first and Hoyer can provide that. Hoyer's struggles had as much to do with defenses figuring out Shanahan as they did with Hoyer. We also have to remember this was his first full season, and he was coming off a knee injury that normally takes two years to recover from. So he was basically a rookie as far as game experience, but with a veteran knowledge of the game. He's already been groomed by better than anything we've ever had in Tom Brady. I don't see how having him back sets us back at all. It's better than trusting lil Johnny to do the right thing, and better than starting over. Unless a team is willing to trade us their franchise QB, Hoyer is our best option. I also think a lot of Hoyer's struggles were brought on by all the pressure of Johnny Football that weren't about the game itself. He was trying to maintain confidence with all the noise and a monkey hanging on his back. Winston is a head case. This team cannot afford anymore head cases, especially at the most important position. I'm scared of Mariota. Good kid, but the toughness it takes to compete in the AFCN...just don't see it in him. Plus, he's another system guy. Draft a guy later in the draft. One that runs a more pro style offense and let Hoyer teach him the pro game until he's ready. Or if he comes out of the gate and outplays Hoyer...a la Russell Wilson, then by all means, start him right away. Agree although both Mariota and Winston could very well be good NFL quarterbacks the Browns just can't afford to take the chance. That old saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush applies. We know what we will be getting with Hoyer but with improvements they should get with the draft Hoyer may look even better with better players around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Nobody has wasted more money and more high draft picks on the OL than the Browns. Yea, like Trent Richardson, Brady Quinn, Braylon Edwards, Brandon Weeden, William Green, K2. The definition of insanity is to keep doing what you are doing and expecting the same results. OL is NoT where the Browns need to spend their higher draft picks. OK, true. DL and LB would be though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Nobody has wasted more money and more high draft picks on the OL than the Browns. Yeppers. Because using high draft picks on Joe Thomas, Joel Bitonio and Alex Mack was a total waste.....blech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Manziel doesn't sweeten a trade he hinders it. I don't know if he hinders it, but he doesn't add anything at this point. We are going to have to ride the Johnny train this season and it either busts out or starts to show promise. And we should. We have a 3 game sample. That isn't enough. We also need to see if he is starting to take some of the advice to heart and he isn't tabloid material every month or so. Next weekend is a big week with the SuperBowl. I expect he will be seen. I don't expect him to hole up all off season. It's more the "where" and "when's" that will tell the tale. Is it at a nice restaurant with his party or is it at some nighclub at 2AM? Big difference. The guy needs to stay away from the clubs for a while as was shown a few weeks ago. The guy is a target. He may not be the cause of the trouble, but it seems trouble is going to seek him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I don't know if he hinders it, but he doesn't add anything at this point. We are going to have to ride the Johnny train this season and it either busts out or starts to show promise. And we should. We have a 3 game sample. That isn't enough. We also need to see if he is starting to take some of the advice to heart and he isn't tabloid material every month or so. Next weekend is a big week with the SuperBowl. I expect he will be seen. I don't expect him to hole up all off season. It's more the "where" and "when's" that will tell the tale. Is it at a nice restaurant with his party or is it at some nighclub at 2AM? Big difference. The guy needs to stay away from the clubs for a while as was shown a few weeks ago. The guy is a target. He may not be the cause of the trouble, but it seems trouble is going to seek him. I understand the optics, but that's about all they are. Maybe football professionals share the feelings of the great unwashed, maybe not. I just wonder if anyone could write a list of his transgressions that really mean anything and are not really TMZ style rumors and innuendo? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 The problem with this past season was DL. I'm hoping NT Shelton from UW is our first pick. Sure, draft a RT with the second first rounder because OL wasn't great after Mack left.. but really, that's weak point #4 at this point. Weak points number 1, 2, and 3 on the Browns right now are every starting DL spot. Desmond Bryant is average as a starter, Armonty Bryant flashed but might not be consistent, everyone else is a backup. The Gordon show doesn't rate at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I understand the optics, but that's about all they are. Maybe football professionals share the feelings of the great unwashed, maybe not. I just wonder if anyone could write a list of his transgressions that really mean anything and are not really TMZ style rumors and innuendo? WSS I agree with you. However, it seems the Browns staff isn't happy, innuendo or not, so it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I just wonder if anyone could write a list of his transgressions that really mean anything and are not really TMZ style rumors and innuendo? WSS Not really rumors or innuendo, as people aren't speculating about his activities....they are photographing and reporting them....(there is a difference)... It's about whether you consider them transgressions or not, that is really the point. To provide an opposing view next to that list of transgressions, lets see if anyone can make a list of positives he brought to the team in terms of professionalism, overall effort or actual play..... Which list would be longer?.....positives? ....or negatives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VENOM Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 In the past the Cowboys have been the poster child of flash before talent. Jerry finallygrew up and got a line for his team. The Browns should follow suit. With the emergence of the running game and the line missing a bit an ol should be our top pick. And keep Hoyer and not take another qb let it come to us instead of for forcing it. As the cowboy took to ball out of romo's hand. Do the same take the pressure off of Hoyer. Then get rid of the distractions Manziel and Gilbert keep skrinne and get some pass rushers free agent trade or in the draft. And the third thing is to trade gordon or get him a baby sitter. As well as get another wr opposite of his cooper or white. We have got to move past this dam dumb notion you have to have a top ten qb to win. The raven won it all with dilfer. Fix the lines get a wr that will catch the ball and things will correct them selves. The cards and Hawks did this and Wilson fell into there lap and the cards are right where the Hawks were two hours ago everything but the qb. And be honest with your selves is there anybody that is better the Hoyer at this point the Browns can get or draft and the answer is no. And if I was to project cardell jones will be the best qb to come out since luck and wilson Well said! I have been preaching this for a while. All the reaches for QB's have set them back. I got blasted a few years ago when I said stick with Anderson for another couple years and build in other areas first. Now how many swing and misses on QB's have there been since Anderson. Stick with Hoyer and don't let Johnny Beiber be a distraction. Get that WR and fix the line! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Not really rumors or innuendo, as people aren't speculating about his activities....they are photographing and reporting them....(there is a difference)... It's about whether you consider them transgressions or not, that is really the point. To provide an opposing view next to that list of transgressions, lets see if anyone can make a list of positives he brought to the team in terms of professionalism, overall effort or actual play..... Which list would be longer?.....positives? ....or negatives? Wait, so the list of transgressions includes the fact that he's been photographed at night clubs, correct? And as I recall from the tweets the time frame has been somewhere between 130 and 3 o'clock. So that's it? That's your damning photographic evidence? Uh okay? Any arrest? DUI's? Any failed drug test? Any broken team or league rule? Anything of that sort? Ever miss a team meeting or miss a treatment? I'm waiting. So far we have the fact he's going out to night clubs and was late for a hamstring treatment. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Not really rumors or innuendo, as people aren't speculating about his activities....they are photographing and reporting them....(there is a difference)... It's about whether you consider them transgressions or not, that is really the point. To provide an opposing view next to that list of transgressions, lets see if anyone can make a list of positives he brought to the team in terms of professionalism, overall effort or actual play..... Which list would be longer?.....positives? ....or negatives? Please read again Steve....Im not arguing what he's done is right or wrong and aint going done THAT road for the millionth time.....Im just saying it's not rumor, its documented....... And my second point(now highlighted in red) simply states your point....which is....some dont think he's doing anything wrong....and some do..... But it's a tired argument.....we've rehashed the "transgressions" over and over.....lets take a different perspective... Wait, so the list of transgressions includes the fact that he's been photographed at night clubs, correct? I think that would be on the list, yes. IF your making a list of transgressions and you consider this a transgression. Some do. You dont. And as I recall from the tweets the time frame has been somewhere between 130 and 3 o'clock. So that's it? That's your damning photographic evidence? Not MY evidence. Please dont put words in my mouth, as I dont think I was damning anybody?, was I? I, like you, just asked for a list.... Uh okay? Any arrest? DUI's? Any failed drug test? Any broken team or league rule? Anything of that sort? Ever miss a team meeting or miss a treatment? I'm waiting. So far we have the fact he's going out to night clubs and was late for a hamstring treatment. I dont have a list and aint gonna debate all his little stories that make the news. The real issue is if his FO and coach think theres a problem WSS So, Im not taking a stand or attacking all the negative stuff here....but AM stepping up and asking for the positive. Any job or business has to weigh the good and the bad, right?....so lets make a "good list", instead of rehashing all the negatives...........you start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Not really rumors or innuendo, as people aren't speculating about his activities....they are photographing and reporting them....(there is a difference)... Maybe that statement is the source of our misunderstanding. Anyway I guess it doesn't matter. It seems to me that people are hyperventilating over nothing. If I lumped you and with them and if I'm wrong, sorry. Does anything that has been photographs and reported bother you? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 To provide an opposing view next to that list of transgressions, lets see if anyone can make a list of positives he brought to the team in terms of professionalism, overall effort or actual play..... A lot of folks had very long lists of positives... and then they saw JM play... and then they heard him explain his play. Haven't seen a list since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Maybe that statement is the source of our misunderstanding. Anyway I guess it doesn't matter. It seems to me that people are hyperventilating over nothing. If I lumped you and with them and if I'm wrong, sorry. Does anything that has been photographs and reported bother you? WSS The photo of JM rolling the $20 dollar bill in the bathroom bothered me. It bothered the Browns org. enough where they had Pettine who was on vacation at the time make a personal call to JM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 The photo of JM rolling the $20 dollar bill in the bathroom bothered me. It bothered the Browns org. enough where they had Pettine who was on vacation at the time make a personal call to JM. And that would be a red flag for me too. Are riokies drug tested as often as regular players? That would call for an immediate test in my opinion. No idea how long cocaine stays in the system but it would in a hair follicle I'm assuming? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 And that would be a red flag for me too. Are riokies drug tested as often as regular players? That would call for an immediate test in my opinion. No idea how long cocaine stays in the system but it would in a hair follicle I'm assuming? WSS I don't know if the NFL uses the hair follicle testing. With the urine screens cocaine stays in the system 3-5 days. I did read this: Players are tested for banned recreational drugs only once per year. If Manziel had his test during offseason workouts, he faces no further testing until April 20, 2015. Unless, of course, the powers-that-be regard the photo as reasonable cause for asking Manziel to donate a cup of urine for insertion into a machine that will determine whether the urine contains evidence of any banned substances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe that statement is the source of our misunderstanding.......It seems to me that people are hyperventilating over nothing. If I lumped you and with them and if I'm wrong, sorry. Does anything that has been photographs and reported bother you? I think it's about the extremes that we see daily on this board.......There are folks who are hyperventilating(over reacting?) and there are some who think everything's fine(under reacting?)....dont want to be lumped with either group.... But I do see a lot that bothers me because I think of NFL qb's as executive type professionals who have reached the highest level....its a job that only 20-30 people in the whole world can do....and I think it takes total commitment & extreme effort to achieve this level.....and, yes, sacrifice too (which our guy clearly states he's not gonna do ) And if you aint willing to sacrifice some things and work hard to succeed, then you dont deserve the rewards of the job..... Haven't seen a list since. I made one....JFF's list is very heavy on one side..... The photo of JM rolling the $20 dollar bill in the bathroom bothered me. It bothered the Browns org. enough where they had Pettine who was on vacation at the time make a personal call to JM. Yep, it bothered the Browns too.....which is what REALLY counts..... If I got called on vacation about a new employee and his personal issues, I guarantee I would be pissed and it would effect his standing in the company..... And if it happened over and over.....well, it wouldn't actually.....because he'd be unemployed..... And that would be a red flag for me too. Are riokies drug tested as often as regular players? That would call for an immediate test in my opinion. No idea how long cocaine stays in the system but it would in a hair follicle I'm assuming? WSS And that "red flag" thing is what most rational people are pointing to......There are actually "many many" red flags, which is the problem most of us have..... And there is nothing on the "good side" to balance those red flags.......like some touchdowns or effort or something.....anything...... So...I've answered your questions.....how about you answer mine.....do you have a good list of his contributions to the team??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 I made one....JFF's list is very heavy on one side..... IIRC the "heavy side" was not the positive side. Was kinda my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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