TexasAg1969 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 To what John Elway did in converting in just two years a Superbowl Bust defense into a Playoff running dominator with minimal offensive help? Sure got my attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 The Browns and Broncos are at completely different stages of a team's life-cycle. The Broncos with a Superbowl Bust defense were still playoff contenders, and therefore were in a position where signing marquee free agents could make the difference between winning the Super Bowl or not. I'm not taking anything away from Elway. He did what was right for his team: he saw that Manning wouldn't be able to carry the Broncos anymore, and decided to put the load on the defense. He also knew Manning didn't have several years for the defense to develop young players, so he went out and signed proven veterans. The Browns in hindsight have applied a similar formula, but because they are not playoff contenders, the formula failed them. They let a young player, T.J. Ward, go, in favor of an aging player, Donte Whitner. They brought in an aging linebacker in Dansby and lineman in Starks. The sum of their free agency moves is that they now have not only one of the worst defenses in the NFL, but the oldest. By the time the younger players on this team hit their prime, Whitner, Dansby, and Starks will be long gone. A few years from now, they will have missed the opportunity to have Whitner, Dansby, and Starks while they are productive AT THE SAME TIME as the players they drafted in the past two years hit their prime. That's why the Browns need to build through the draft, have a crop of players within a few years of age of each other, and develop them together so when they all hit their prime the Browns can be a Super Bowl contender. You have to have this kind of overall strategy in building the team, you can't just jump into free agency to try and address the team's problems without looking ahead to the future. This year, they should only sign free-agents coming off their rookie deal. In three to four years, if we're a playoff team, THEN you can start getting older guys to get you over the hump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 of course they didn't pay attention. I'll gladly rescind that comment and offer an apology if they finally figure it out in time for the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 of course they didn't pay attention. I'll gladly rescind that comment and offer an apology if they finally figure it out in time for the draft. Seriously? They haven't even been able to do anything yet and you're already bitching and writing them off? How about some positivity? Or maybe a 'well let's just give them a chance'? We have a coaching staff that will apparently have a big say in who we sign and draft, and that coaching staff is vastly experienced. I'm not guaranteeing anything, but give them a damn chance to do their jobs and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 The bit about him realizing Peyton was done seems like revisionist history to me. That Super Bowl was the 2013 season. Peyton was the same old Peyton well into the second half of the 2014 season. Maybe Elway has a crystal ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 The bit about him realizing Peyton was done seems like revisionist history to me. That Super Bowl was the 2013 season. Peyton was the same old Peyton well into the second half of the 2014 season. Maybe Elway has a crystal ball. He realised his D sucked, and the O couldn't carry them against great Ds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Three D starters went down in the playoffs that year including Von. Crystal ball must have told him they still wouldn't have won even with those guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 The Browns and Broncos are at completely different stages of a team's life-cycle. The Broncos with a Superbowl Bust defense were still playoff contenders, and therefore were in a position where signing marquee free agents could make the difference between winning the Super Bowl or not. I'm not taking anything away from Elway. He did what was right for his team: he saw that Manning wouldn't be able to carry the Broncos anymore, and decided to put the load on the defense. He also knew Manning didn't have several years for the defense to develop young players, so he went out and signed proven veterans. The Browns in hindsight have applied a similar formula, but because they are not playoff contenders, the formula failed them. They let a young player, T.J. Ward, go, in favor of an aging player, Donte Whitner. They brought in an aging linebacker in Dansby and lineman in Starks. The sum of their free agency moves is that they now have not only one of the worst defenses in the NFL, but the oldest. By the time the younger players on this team hit their prime, Whitner, Dansby, and Starks will be long gone. A few years from now, they will have missed the opportunity to have Whitner, Dansby, and Starks while they are productive AT THE SAME TIME as the players they drafted in the past two years hit their prime. That's why the Browns need to build through the draft, have a crop of players within a few years of age of each other, and develop them together so when they all hit their prime the Browns can be a Super Bowl contender. You have to have this kind of overall strategy in building the team, you can't just jump into free agency to try and address the team's problems without looking ahead to the future. This year, they should only sign free-agents coming off their rookie deal. In three to four years, if we're a playoff team, THEN you can start getting older guys to get you over the hump. I think this team has outstanding young talent on defense. With a couple of more studs it could weather the storm. We get Bosa and that DE position is handled. (I would love to see Bosa and Shelton next to each other on the DL) Yes, I also think another young ILB would help...Christian Kirksey needs to improve. We need to keep Gipson. Who can handle Whitner's spot? Ibrahim Campbell is his backup...can he develop? OK, sure....with 11 draft picks maybe we can get some help. And remember.....the Broncos got Demarcus Ware in FA. I know that the Browns per se are not now an attractive destination for FAs......but there money has always been attractive. God knows the Browns have given away enough of it on useless shit.....read Holmgren and Bowe. Maybe some of it can be put to good use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Who can handle Whitner's spot? Ibrahim Campbell is his backup...can he develop? Yes!....I think Campbell is gonna be a real solid player for us.....based on downs played, he was our best tackler last season.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Yes!....I think Campbell is gonna be a real solid player for us.....based on downs played, he was our best tackler last season.... Agree he looked a solid tackler. More to being a safety though, and he hasn't really had the chance to show he can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Agree he looked a solid tackler. More to being a safety though, and he hasn't really had the chance to show he can do that. Well, yes, he is listed as a safety. The Browns depth chart has him as Whitner's backup. And what abou Ekpre-Olomu. Wonder what the anal-ytics says about his potential. How has his healing process come along? (yes, I know, he is a CB) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Well, yes, he is listed as a safety. The Browns depth chart has him as Whitner's backup. THIS IS TOTALLY NEW INFORMATION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 And what abou Ekpre-Olomu. Wonder what the anal-ytics says about his potential. How has his healing process come along? (yes, I know, he is a CB) I don't think we'll know much about his status until we get closer to training camp. By then he'd have had well over a year to recover from his surgeries, but sometimes guys never fully recover from an injury like that. It'd be a huge bonus if he did fully recover, he was being rated as the top CB in the 2015 draft pre-injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 THIS IS TOTALLY NEW INFORMATION. Not sure why you say that. I mean, he is a safety. He played safety last year. Here is that depth chart: http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchart/CLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Not sure why you say that. I mean, he is a safety. He played safety last year. Here is that depth chart: http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchart/CLE Who exactly was unaware of his position on the field or his depth chart? Myself or Mud? Because I can assure you it was neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I don't think we'll know much about his status until we get closer to training camp. By then he'd have had well over a year to recover from his surgeries, but sometimes guys never fully recover from an injury like that. It'd be a huge bonus if he did fully recover, he was being rated as the top CB in the 2015 draft pre-injury. WOW, you made a post that wasn't about Goff? Are you feeling OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Agree he looked a solid tackler. More to being a safety though, and he hasn't really had the chance to show he can do that. Yeah....only about 100 snaps last year....and he is definitely a box safety.....better at run D than he is at coverage....So, plays a game closer to LB than that of a FS.... But, I liked what I saw....and with Whitners aging legs and his good performance, Id expect to see a lot more of him this season... And what abou Ekpre-Olomu. Wonder what the anal-ytics says about his potential. How has his healing process come along? (yes, I know, he is a CB) I think anal-itics would say that a full recovery from his injury is not probable.....and we shouldnt count on him returning to his past form......if he does?....then SCORE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 WOW, you made a post that wasn't about Goff? Are you feeling OK? LOL! Obviously not. You've cut him too badly too many times. You could give Colleen lessons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R0W5QqWjIg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Who exactly was unaware of his position on the field or his depth chart? Myself or Mud? Because I can assure you it was neither. I thought it was you who was unsure because of this statement: Agree he looked a solid tackler. More to being a safety though, and he hasn't really had the chance to show he can do that. Maybe I just misunderstood you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I thought it was you who was unsure because of this statement: Agree he looked a solid tackler. More to being a safety though, and he hasn't really had the chance to show he can do that. Maybe I just misunderstood you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Maybe not so obvious. Snape wasn't what he seemed to be. Neither may you be. Maybe you are dazed and confused for so long its not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Seriously? They haven't even been able to do anything yet and you're already bitching and writing them off? It's such a force of habit bro. They really are guilty till proven innocent in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Three D starters went down in the playoffs that year including Von. Crystal ball must have told him they still wouldn't have won even with those guys. The way the Denver Offense shriveled up and died 3 SB's ago, I have trouble accepting that Elway came away saying, "Man, I have to fix our Defense." I think this team has outstanding young talent on defense. For someone with this view you seem to know precious little about our young players. I think anal-itics would say that a full recovery from his injury is not probable.....and we shouldnt count on him returning to his past form......if he does?....then SCORE!!! Of all the positions where a knee diminishes a player, CB has to top the list. I remember Rod Woodson did come back, but within a couple seasons shifted to FS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 He was a 7th round flier, a guy who used to be a top prospect, he might recover and become a solid contributor, if so then great pick, if not, no harm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 top top prospect too......I totally agree with taking that flier.... And you never know....even with a compromised knee, he could still be better than average....fingers crossed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 top top prospect too......I totally agree with taking that flier.... And you never know....even with a compromised knee, he could still be better than average....fingers crossed... Could be a solid safety I guess. If he can get to buster skrine level, for a 7th rounder that'll do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 The way the Denver Offense shriveled up and died 3 SB's ago, I have trouble accepting that Elway came away saying, "Man, I have to fix our Defense." Pretty much everything I have read about it alludes to exactly that. It was an embarrassment for their D not to be able to match Seattle's D. And he brought Kubiac in to change the way Manning was operating the O to fit an aging QB into managing it rather than carrying the team with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I know that's the popular story, Ag, I just have trouble accepting it. Changes included HC and both OCs. Both OCs brought with them new schemes. Only 3 Offensive starters from the 2013 SB team started in 2015. Three defensive starters plus a reserve from the 2013 SB team started in 2015. Looks like they remade the team as a whole. Obviously the D turned out to be better, but how much of that was design vs. diminished QB play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 The way the Denver Offense shriveled up and died 3 SB's ago, I have trouble accepting that Elway came away saying, "Man, I have to fix our Defense." For someone with this view you seem to know precious little about our young players. Why don't you fuck yourself with your stupid mother's dick. You don't know shit about our players any more than I do. Oh...you do a breakdown of offensive line play. Who gives a flying fuck. Tell us what players are good enough to win with. You have no clue. We have Shelton and Cooper.....good young defensive linemen. And Hughes. We certainly can add more....Get Bosa. Older players like Dez Bryant and Starks: serviceable. Can we do better...surely LBs: I was going to say Kirksey, Orchard, and A. Bryant. Well, maybe not Bryant. At DB we have some good young talent...Gipson if we keep him. K'Waun Williams. And the hope is that Desir, Campbell and Ekrpe can develop. Did I say that we were loaded like the '85 Bears? No I didn't say that, I said that I think we have some outstanding young talent on this defense. And I just gave you the people that I though constituted that. And there is NO fucking debate that you can make on that can refute that. Can we get more better talent? Absolutely. That is what I have been saying about this draft....take the best defensive player out there. So, eat shit and die if you don't like what I say about it. I just happen to be right.....as nearly always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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