Satisfying Ghoolie

[The Gipper]

How about this hypothetical trade, that fall right into Ghoolie's lap for what he wants:

 

Joe Thomas, All Pro left tackle, to Texans for All Pro WR Andre Johnson?

 

 

If not that, then John Manziel, whom Ghoolie has already declared a bust to the Texans for Johnson?

 

In all his meanderings, Ghoolie is right about one thing: All Pro LTs and other OL do not win games or championships for you, offensive skill players do.

(but, I contend that not having a quality LT....or other OL CAN lose games and a title for you).

 

If the first trade were to happen, I would have to have a sweetener as I do not believe that Johnson has more than 2 productive years ahead of him. I would require a high draft pick....probably a #1, or a proven young veteran player....possibly a replacement for JT....as I think JT has at least 5-7 productive years.

 

OK Virgin Copulator, what do you think of that? Satisfied?

[Clevfan4life]

Since 99 we've drafted the highest % of top college talent at qb yet year after year they're seen running for their lives because our O line can't protect them for a fraction of the time that every other mediocre line can. I don't get how anyone could want to trade away a player like Joe Thomas who at least ensures that we don't see blind side hits on every drive. If we were to have a left handed qb in Cleveland we would have no choice but to put JT on the right side. If one of our guys was a lefty that Washington game may have been his last.

[The Gipper]

Since 99 we've drafted the highest % of top college talent at qb yet year after year they're seen running for their lives because our O line can't protect them for a fraction of the time that every other mediocre line can. I don't get how anyone could want to trade away a player like Joe Thomas who at least ensures that we don't see blind side hits on every drive. If we were to have a left handed qb in Cleveland we would have no choice but to put JT on the right side. If one of our guys was a lefty that Washington game may have been his last.

I beg to differ that we have drafted the top talent at QB. OK, maybe some of those guys were top talent in college....but they certainly were not top talent in the Pros. Only Tim Couch had a modicum of success, and his career was cut short by injury. None of those guys ever went anywhere else and became successful....or do you really think that Brandon Weeden will do well with the Cowboys? I don't. I don't want to trade JT, clearly. I merely bring it up as a point of conversation.

[Clevfan4life]

No you're right they were top talent in college. Yet similar guys get drafted by other teams and end up at least being serviceable. I think starting day one for the Cleveland Browns ruined some of these guys careers because they were never able to properly learn the position. Couch's checking off the DE's being a prime example of this. The guy couldn't break that habit and it killed his read progression. But that's how much he didn't trust his o line.

[TexasAg1969]

Be better of trading Manziel for a real RT and a 3rd or 4th rounder next year.

[The Gipper]

No you're right they were top talent in college. Yet similar guys get drafted by other teams and end up at least being serviceable. I think starting day one for the Cleveland Browns ruined some of these guys careers because they were never able to properly learn the position. Couch's checking off the DE's being a prime example of this. The guy couldn't break that habit and it killed his read progression. But that's how much he didn't trust his o line.

Couch and Weeden were the only ones that we started from Day One. Guys like Frye/Quinn/McCoy were not thrown in immediately. They were given some time.

Couch was "ruined" by injuries. So I do not think that applies to him.

Weeden? Was he ruined by starting immediately as a rookie. I don't know.....as noted, he was older, more mature.

 

And again, as I have said in other threads: I do NOT think that the Cleveland Browns ruined these guys. I think these guys ruined the Cleveland Browns. If they were better, if they had played better the team would have won more, and they each may have kept their job here much longer. But they weren't better. They were bad. Their post Browns record pretty much confirms that.

[Zombo]

I think "Satisfying Ghoolie" would involve a pair of XXL pantyhose, an accordion, an autographed photo of Joe Thomas and Rich4Eagle in assless chaps.

 

Zombo

[The Gipper]

I think "Satisfying Ghoolie" would involve a pair of XXL pantyhose, an accordion, an autographed photo of Joe Thomas and Rich4Eagle in assless chaps.

 

Zombo

Who would be wearing the panythose, Ghoolie or Rich?

[Zombo]

Who would be wearing the panythose, Ghoolie or Rich?

 

The accordion.

 

Zombo

[Browns149]

trade Johnny for Andre Johnson

 

we don't need another backup QB, but we sure could use a #1 WR

[Zombo]

Almost every one of the QB's drafted by the Browns were a reach. Just bad picks.

 

Not a rapist in the bunch.

 

Enjoy the fact that you cut Brian Hoyer and he's going to bitchslap you twice in the first month of the season.

 

Zombo

[The Gipper]

Almost every one of the QB's drafted by the Browns were a reach. Just bad picks.

I don't know if they were a reach or not.....as in having been drafted much higher than most analysts believed they should be picked. A lot of people actually thought that Quinn and JMZ could be picked much higher. Couch was fairly well considered to be #1 overall material...at least top 2-3 by the pundits. Weeden though may have been the one guy that went higher than the pundits thought.

But, were they bad picks? Needless to say. Though it still remains to be seen with JMZ.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

[The Gipper]

I guess I have to make this observation: Ghoolie hasn't checked in to tell us if that would satisfy him. Where are you Virgin Copulator?

[The Gipper]

But, Ghoolie.....would you make those trades?

 

(beyond that, I suggest that the Browns have with frequency drafted the hottest prospects......who turned out to be the biggest duds.

Quinn, Braylon, Richardson etc. all highly touted prospects. All failures.

 

So, it is not a matter of difference in philosophy....it is a matter of execution. When the Browns have done exactly what you suggest they should do....they have fallen flat on their faces.

 

I also don't think the Browns have invested any more high draft picks on OL than any other teams have. Some other teams have drafted a lot more. The Browns have two firsts and a couple of second rounders on their line. They have put more than that into their defensive backfield and about the same on their defensive line. And more into their offensive skill players.

[The Gipper]

Here is a breakdown of the positions the Browns have invested their draft picks in the first three rounds since 2005.

 

Defensive Backs 6 picks

Linebacker 3 picks

Defensive Line 5 picks

Offensive line 5 picks

Wide Receiver 6 picks

Running Back 3 picks

Quarterback 5 picks

 

So, they have had 33 picks in rounds 1-3......14 of those have been expended for just 4 of the 22 positions on the field: QB/RB/WRs1&2.

 

42% of our high picks have been invested in offensive skill players. By rights it should only be 18%. (4 of 22).

 

So....lets not hear any talk about the Browns choosing to favor the offensive line over skill players when it comes to draft policy. It is BS.

The problem isn't the philosophy.....it is the names: Quinn/McCoy/Weeden/Frye/Manziel at QB. Edwards/Robiskie/Massaquoi/Travis Wilson/Little....and Gordon at WR.

Hardesty/Richardson/West at RB. Only one out of 11 of the known people became a positive. The other two are Manziel and West.....rookies.

 

And it is not like the Browns mismanaged these guys talents. None went on to do diddley anywhere else. There has just been bad choices. A complete failure of execution on the part of our skilled player draftees.

 

In other words...they have sucked.

 

Any arguments?

[hoorta]

Gipper,

 

let's get on the same page here.

 

I believe that an effective OL is tantamount to having a great offense. Where my beliefs and strategy differ is in how much value is placed on the individual OL player.

 

People slam the low percentage of success that drafting QBs, WRs and RBs provides, but nobody ever talks about the poor odds of getting good OL in the high picks. The draft is a crap shoot regardless of what position one chooses. With skilled positions however, the upside is much greater.

 

Joe Montana will always be a better pick than Joe Thomas. Jim Brown will always be the better pick than Gene Hickerson.

 

Having great skilled players will make an average OL great. When defenses have to account for explosive offensive potential, they have to play a little less aggressively at the line of scrimmage, They have to account for play action and deep routes. When a defense has more to account for the offensive line has an advantage. Play fakes and looks get them to flinch, more, or react, and the OL has the advantage of coming off the block and taking advantage of those reactions.

 

THAT is what enables an OL to wear down the opposing D.

 

Conversely, when a defense knows that an Offense cannot run outside, and cannot throw the ball deep, they can pretty much play straight ahead football, knowing that the overwhelming majority of plays will be short passes and straight ahead running.

 

I don't care if your five offensive linemen are Ringo, Gregg, Webster, Parker and Hickerson......... Five men cannot block eight men. I don't know if any NFL team has drafted more offensive linemen in higher positions than us, but over and over and over again we have the same complaints on this board........... "Our offense stinks because our OL stinks".

 

This isn't true, Gipper. Our offense stinks because our offense stinks. The OL has no tactical, mental, gamesmanship edge. They have to block defenders who absolutely know where our plays are going.

 

Do I think Thomas sucks? Of course not. I don't think he is as good as Ogden and Oher, because those guys can push people around. Thomas has fast feet and is tough to get around, but there is a reason the Browns can't run sweeps left, and seldom calls them.

 

Since the last 20 years of SB winners had walk ons and low round OL on their teams, I maintain that OL can be had in later rounds and that ESPECIALLY when you have no offense, you can't afford OL in the first round. maybe even the second round.

 

Gordon is the only real weapon we have. I would have moved up by hook or crook to get two WR in Round one, and would have taken Hyde in Round two. I would have sacrificed Thomas to do so. The point is this, having him has not protected our QBs, it hasn't given them any more time to pass, it hasn't helped our running game.

 

I would have stood pat with Hoyer. JF is a dud, he own amount to anything and is essentially another Couch, Quinn, McCoy waste of energy. This much I know, the Browns have been feeding the desires of the fans since 1999 by drafting linemen left and right. I believe that until the team makes a practice of drafting the HOTTEST prospects, and entering that high-profile game, our fortunes for winning will be relegated to miracle diamond in the rough discoveries.

 

J Football is a dud? I hope you're wrong, but I happen to have the same sinking feeling about him. Remember some other mega hype guys coming out of college like Tony Mandarich, and Brian Bosworth?

 

Here's a scouting report I dug up from the "other" board that the Manzealots don't want to hear-

 

JL 10/15 - Suspended first half of TXRI game for autograph scandal. Couple of TXTC sources say can't yell/scream at him or he shuts down; has walked away from Kingsbury in the past. Has an avg. work ethic, came to 4 of 32 summer '13 workouts, and quit going to in-season workouts late in '12. Doesn't study the game, said to know about 60% of the offense in '12, never watches film; one source said only time he watched film during '12 was before ALUN. Comes from 'outlaw bloodlines', mom moved the family to Kerrville to get away from father's wild family. Father's family is said to be very shady people, always into something, they are the root of Johnny's personality. 'What you see on TV and how he is portrayed, that's him; but when you talk to him, you'll like him'. Coaches love his tuffs/competes, they want to go to war with him, but 'Johnny will be Johnny' during the week. Knows how to scheme the system, arrogant and full of himself, but he's not smug to coaches. Has been like this since Day 1, has never gone to class, goes to beat of own drum, but has ultimate confidence. Loves the spotlight, football is his release, big games don't scare him. Has size 15 feet and freakishly big hands. Will drink, but no one I spoke with think he's a smoker. Teammates don't dislike him, but there's some resentment, more so in the offseason when he isn't coming to workouts and they are busting their butt. Loner, doesn't hang out with the guys, but very close with WR Mike Evans. Already has money, is used to spotlight, has already been exposed to NFL-level fame. Will never take football seriously enough for our coaching staff, he'll hate meetings, will have to drag him to work out, etc. The definition of the word maintenance. CONCERNS: Maturity, passion for preparation, high-maintenance, work ethic

 

I haven't forgotten he blew off the Manning's football camp either. And there's posters here who wonder why I had doubts about drafting him?

 

 

Richardson and Quinn WERE NOT HOT PICKS. They were shit. Jim Brown called Richardson ORDINARY...........

 

QUIN would have say untaken until the third round.

 

You are full of shit. the Browns have NOT been active in the top picks. Other than Tim Couch #1 overall. They have taken second echelon players. Fucking Brady Quinn? Good grief.

 

Edwards was known to have dropitis @ Michigan- but we drafted him anyway.

 

Gee, something's wrong- I agree with you again. "Run to Darkness" Richardson was not only a wasted pick, we actually gave up picks to move up to get him. And remember I told Shep "It's a sin if we draft Quinn?"

 

Edwards was known to have dropitis @ Michigan, but we drafted him anyway.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

[calfoxwc]

Say, why not just trade the entire offense and special teams away for a good wr?

Golly, what a joke - trade JOE THOMAS ? And get the qb's stuffed to the turf

all over again?

Sounds like somebody is afraid the Browns are going to start winning and losing them bets......

********************************

A man parks his car in a rough part of town with two accordions on the back seat, forgetting to lock the back door.

When he returns, there are three accordions.

____________________

How do you protect a valuable instrument?

Hide it in an accordion case.

____________________

How is playing an accordion like throwing a javelin blindfolded?

You don't have to be very good to get people's attention.

___________________

If you drop an accordion, a broken alarm clock, and a turkey feather off a 20-story building, which one lands first and which way up do they land?

Who cares?

____________________

This guy walks into an antique store and notices a brass rat sitting on one of the top shelves. He asks the clerk, "How much for that brass rat?". The clerk says "Well sir, it's 25 bucks just for the rat, and 50 bucks if you want to hear the story that goes with it. Take my word, you'll want to *hear* the story." The guy says "No, I believe I'll just take the rat for 25 bucks."

So, this fella takes his brass rat and heads down the street. Right away he notices that a *real* rat is following him, so he makes a quick turn down the next street. He passes an alley, at which point about a half-dozen rats come out and start following him. This guy is getting pretty panicked at this point, so he starts heading out toward the outskirts of town. When he passes the town dump, *hundreds* of rats stream out and follow him. Our hero is beside himself at this point, so as he passes the river that winds around town, he tosses the brass rat right in the drink. Every last one of the real rats follows the brass rat into the river and drowns.

Relieved, our protagonist heads back to the antique store where he got the brass rat. "I knew it!", says the clerk, "You're back to hear the story about the rat, aren't you?". "No sir", says the guy, "I just wanted to find out how much you're asking for that brass accordion I see you've got up there."

____________________

What is the definition of a gentleman?

Somebody who knows how to play the accordion, but doesn't.

____________________

What is the range of an accordion?

Twenty yards if you've got a good arm!

____________________

What's the difference between an accordion and a macaw?

One is loud, obnoxious and noisy; the other is a bird.

____________________

Why do Accordionists make good politicians?

They are used to playing both ends off against the middle.

[lodilobo]

LMAO!....best post I've ever read on this board! Thanks.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

[hoorta]

 

Who can ever forget Gene Carroll's Polka Varieties on Sunday to get warmed up for a Browns game?

[Unsympathetic]

Skill players do not make a team great. How many playoff games have the Lions and Cowboys won in the last 3 years?

 

Skill players complete an offense. Good OL play is required before any offense will be remotely competent.

[calfoxwc]

The offensive line is the engine of the offense, I say again, the running backs are the tires... eh...

the qb is the steering wheel, etc.

 

Great offenses have solid blocking. From what I've read, the offense's adaptation to Shannahan's offense

has been a great deal of work.

 

We'll see how it goes once the regular season starts. Hopefully hits high gear by game 3.

[TypicalBrowns]

Hilarious post calfox.

 

Ghoolie still thinks Andrew Luck is the next Tim Couch.

 

Done.

[The Gipper]

Richardson and Quinn WERE NOT HOT PICKS. They were shit. Jim Brown called Richardson ORDINARY...........

 

QUIN would have say untaken until the third round.

 

You are full of shit. the Browns have NOT been active in the top picks. Other than Tim Couch #1 overall. They have taken second echelon players. Fucking Brady Quinn? Good grief.

I have listed where they have gone with their picks in the first three rounds. I haven't distinguised between high first round picks or low third round picks. But what I have detailed is what the Browns have done with their most valuable assets: high round draft picks. And I don't know what you are referring to by saying "hot picks". These were the picks. I just reported the facts.

But yes....the Browns have been active in their top picks in taking offensive skill players. 42% of those picks have been designated to 4 positions on the field.

What I think I am full of is accuracy. But I also do not think we disagree......What we are both saying is that oh so many of those choices have been the wrong choices.....the Quinns, the Richardsons etc. Yes.....indeed, your are right Ghoolie, those guys have turned out to NOT be top echelon players. They may not even be second echelon players.

I hope you didn't get the impression that I was advocating that these were quality picks. Quite the contrary.

And this is what has killed this team for so long.....making such poor choices with our most valuable assets.

[The Gipper]

My point is this... I think a lot of Browns fans, like Gipper are really lacking in common sense, and are so confused with statistics and numbers that they really don't know what the fuck end is up.

 

Ghoolie. I will put to a vote to the entire board which one of us is believed to have more common sense when it comes to these things....basic football. I will wager you a pierogie dinner on it. Care to take the challenge?

 

Cleveland has not been involved AT ALL in drafting the VERY HIGHEST rated players other than Tim Couch. I don't need to hear about fucking Joe Thomas...... he hasn't contributed a single fucking thing that any run of the mill Joe Blow LT couldn't have contributed. Jackoffs here talking about him being a HOF LT............... So fucking what? What has he done? How has the Browns offense improved since he has been here? It hasn't........But I digress............

 

You do digress.....so I will bring you back to where you should be: Please explain to us what your definition is of "the very highest rated players"

Are you referring to where players were simply drafted? Where pundits had them rated prior to the draft? What?

I gave you the factual breakdown of which positions the took with their choices in the first three rounds. You can't disagree with those facts, so what is it you do disagree with? Maybe you don't like what they have done? Is that your point? What is your point? Joe Thomas was just one of those 33 picks. What about the other 32?

 

LUCK was the top pick, Watkins was another........ SO was Adrian Petersen, Big Ben and on it goes.

 

Gipper thinks Quinn demonstrated the Browns being a player.......... fucking idiot. Had the Browns not taken Quin, like assholes, he would have sunk to the second round, or worse. NOBODY was dumb enough to spend a high pick on him............ Oooops, the BROWNS wee stupid enough.

Ghoolie....you are proving yourself to be either a dumbass....or a special ed case...ot being able to comprehend the written word. All I said about Quinn is that he was drafted by the Browns and that he sucked. In hindsight surely the Browns should never have made the move to get him. We both agree on that....he was a terrible choice...so what is your bitching about?

 

Manziel was not on our radar, and all the top slots were not being used to draft him.... like Quinn he would have sat until the second round.

 

 

Finally, trust me.. MANIEL IS A BUST. Like all the jackoffs efore im, he has a slow release, he is a dullard and can't hit a receiver until well after he makes his break....... Manziel is like Couch, Quinn, Frye, McCoy and Anderson................... he has a slow slow, slow release. You can see it already, the NFL is way above his skill set.

 

Pettine also will be fired after the 2014 season. He is a passive coach, afraid of his own shadow. He plays percentages and has never relied on guts and passion a single day in his career. He is a fucking Romeo-Stinkenhiemer clone.

 

Fire his ass now. Why let us suffer through an entire season when the jury is already unanimous in this issue.

 

Do you have your resume ready to submit when that job opening comes up? The guy hasn't coached his first real game yet and you want to fire him.

I wish the Steelers had had your mindset when a coach they hired went 1-13 in his first season. (of course, they, unlike you, were patient, and he went on to win 4 Super Bowls)

[The Gipper]

Yes and no! Yes because The Yapper is a narcissistic nimrod who is only interested in his own agenda which is usually himself. No because a good left tackle is indescribably valuable and Joe Thomas has been one of the good ones; yes he is showing some signs of falling off but for God sake, look at what the team has put around him......other than Josh Gordon, they are totally inept and have been since his draft!

I am interested in the facts.....and clearly I am not having my own agenda fulfilled.

 

My agenda is having the Cleveland Browns win football games.

 

In fact, you and I are absolutely in accord when it come to those facts. Fact: 42% of the Browns 1st/2d/3rd round draft choices have been spent of the offensive skill players. Fact: That amounts to 14 players. (and 5 of those have been QBs). Fact: Only Josh Gordon seems to have been a quality player out of all that bunch (note, Braylon Edwards had 1 Pro Bowl season). Fact: 1 out of 14 is an awful.....inept record.

 

So, tell me where we disagree? (other than by the fact that you are delighted by these facts....being a Steeler FRAK).

[hoorta]

I have listed where they have gone with their picks in the first three rounds. I haven't distinguised between high first round picks or low third round picks. But what I have detailed is what the Browns have done with their most valuable assets: high round draft picks. And I don't know what you are referring to by saying "hot picks". These were the picks. I just reported the facts.

But yes....the Browns have been active in their top picks in taking offensive skill players. 42% of those picks have been designated to 4 positions on the field.

What I think I am full of is accuracy. But I also do not think we disagree......What we are both saying is that oh so many of those choices have been the wrong choices.....the Quinns, the Richardsons etc. Yes.....indeed, your are right Ghoolie, those guys have turned out to NOT be top echelon players. They may not even be second echelon players.

I hope you didn't get the impression that I was advocating that these were quality picks. Quite the contrary.

And this is what has killed this team for so long.....making such poor choices with our most valuable assets.

 

Let's get to that epic draft fail the Browns pulled off in 2012. The only thing Holmgren and Heckert did right was bid up the price for RG Knee. 20\20 hindsight says the Redskins gave up far, far to much to draft the guy. And Tom, we weren't getting Andrew Luck at any price. Holmgren offered the Colts his entire draft- and got shot down.

 

Trent Richardson, We-done, and The Schwartz (who may be on track to get moved to guard) Three top picks, three stinkers. Out of the 11, yes, 11 picks in that draft only ones left besides Schwartz are role players John Hughes (bet Ghoolie didn't even know he was on the team), Billy Winn, and Travis Benjamin. Acho got traded to the Cards and is still playing.

 

Draft grade= D-.

 

Until we draft more Josh Gordons instead of Massaquois and Brian SLOWbiskis, the Browns will continue to suck.

 

Finally Tom, you can find your lardasses in the sixth and seventh rounds- but you find the great ones about as often as the Pats finding a Tom Brady in the sixth. BTW, if you don't think left tackles are important- just ask the Rams how important they are. Jake Long (who's one of the best) has one screw up against the Browns and toooo bad, Bradford is out for the year with a bum knee.

 

Oh, we could have gotten by with a lesser LT, but the Browns would have led the league every year in quarterbacks to injured reserve.

[The Gipper]

 

Let's get to that epic draft fail the Browns pulled off in 2012. The only thing Holmgren and Heckert did right was bid up the price for RG Knee. 20\20 hindsight says the Redskins gave up far, far to much to draft the guy. And Tom, we weren't getting Andrew Luck at any price. Holmgren offered the Colts his entire draft- and got shot down.

 

Trent Richardson, We-done, and The Schwartz (who may be on track to get moved to guard) Three top picks, three stinkers. Out of the 11, yes, 11 picks in that draft only ones left besides Schwartz are role players John Hughes (bet Ghoolie didn't even know he was on the team), Billy Winn, and Travis Benjamin. Acho got traded to the Cards and is still playing.

 

Draft grade= D-.

 

Until we draft more Josh Gordons instead of Massaquois and Brian SLOWbiskis, the Browns will continue to suck.

 

Finally Tom, you can find your lardasses in the sixth and seventh rounds- but you find the great ones about as often as the Pats finding a Tom Brady in the sixth. BTW, if you don't think left tackles are important- just ask the Rams how important they are. Jake Long (who's one of the best) has one screw up against the Browns and toooo bad, Bradford is out for the year with a bum knee.

 

Oh, we could have gotten by with a lesser LT, but the Browns would have led the league every year in quarterbacks to injured reserve.

Are you talking to Tom Ghoolie or Tom Gipper?