calfoxwc Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 asswholes. https://www.nraila.org/articles/20160819/professor-take-granny-s-gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 For ccw carriers im all for it. If grandpa cant find tne target with birdshot at 10ft it might be time to hang it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 knives, too? Maybe if they use a cane, they should have their stairs taken away? If grandpa is being strangled, that's less than ten feet away.... it's trying to paint ALL veterans, and ALL senior citizens as a foot in the door to confiscation/outlawing ownership. It's the left's sick desire for a politically huge win over most of conservative America that is their own worst enemy. Most folks' common sense is violated by their ignorance and political power greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Im not in total disagreement with u about how "some" of them want to find all kinds of avenues to curb gun ownership despite not really having any good ideas how to keep them away from the ones we want to keep them away from. On the other hand ive long advocated for higher standards for ccw ownership. Im gettin ready to sign up for a class and my buddy said yeah its some classroom time followed by some range time. I asked is there any shot qualifications and he said no. See i disagree with that. To own a ccw you should prove you can hit a torso with ur heartrate elevated. Im not talkin LE/FBI shot groupings but hit a torso sized rarget at 20ft and ur someone that can do some work in an active shooter situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 I don't know what state your buddy resides in, Cleve, but here in Ohio, you most certainly do have to pass range shooting. It's at the 21 ft distance - it was a small torso. One of my hits was nearly absolute dead center. I got a little goofy with shooting a bit fast, but I was well within the expected closeness to center with all shots, save one. I didn't pause after the last shot, I just shot as I was moving back to center. I was 2 3/4 inches off center. That's still good. The 21 Foot Rule was invented by a guy, I forget who, who determined that 21 ft is the distance an attacker on foot can reach you in a few seconds that you could still draw your weapon, aim and fire. It's been very widely adopted. My instructor had been a special forces team arms expert for 4 1/2 years. I wish he did advanced training - I'd take it. It's on my agenda, but I have to cut and split tons of firewood for this winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Well yeah there was range time but that it wasnt really a big deal there wasnt any real strict grouping qualifications. Maybe things have changed? I dunno. Still would like to see some sort of fitness requirements like jumping rope hard for a few minutes and then immediately having to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 maybe only for you, Cleve, but just because I couldn't have with my bad knee, doesn't mean diddley are far as ccw goes...although my new titanium knee is absolutely awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 The professor should back up the claims with data before presuming that armed elderly people represent a public danger. It isn't the elderly shooting up movie theaters, gay nightclubs, and neighborhoods in Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 maybe only for you, Cleve, but just because I couldn't have with my bad knee, doesn't mean diddley are far as ccw goes...although my new titanium knee is absolutely awesome. There should be senior exemptions cal. Maybe they could have u play a couple strenuous rounds of shuffle board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 does throwing a haywagon load of haybales count? (one at a time, that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 Standing still and shooting a piece of paper is not the same as having to draw in a life or death situation, you need much more advanced training to prepare for that. You have to hit the silhouette at a few distances, including one hand right+left. Seemed adequate to me - it's more to test firearm competence rather than marksmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 Seems appropriate place for this... Raffa's is a great little Italian restaurant in Kingwood area of Houston... about 20 miles NE of "downtown". Raffa's was and remains posted forbidding firearms on its premises. A "forgotten" derringer fell from an elderly man's pocket and discharged when it hit the floor. The shot hit an even older woman in her posterior. Incident occurred between two of my visits to the restaurant. First time had t wait about a half hour for a table for two. Second waked in with four and were seated immediately as it was only half-full. Spoke to the owner/chef and business was off 40% after it occurred, but was slowly recovering. Highlights below. The full article raises a question about requiring liability coverage for CHLs (as they are called in Texas). Seems like a reasonable question to raise and I'd think the low probability spread over the sizable and growing CHL population would not be too onerous. Thoughts? Civil suit in Raffa’s shooting settles, injuries remainDiana Barker walks with a special custom-made brace, while a cane provides added support for her paralyzed left foot. They are constant reminders of the evening when a gunshot rang out at Raffa’s Waterfront Grill in Kingwood months ago. Gerald Boyle, the 67-year-old Forest Cove man who said he had “forgotten” that there was a gun tucked inside his winter coat when the Derringer pistol dropped from his jacket and onto the ground a little more than a year ago, causing serious injuries to Diana who was dining with family and friends at a nearby table, agreed to the terms of the settlement in March and wrote a check in an undisclosed amount. With that, the civil case is closed. No criminal charges were ever brought against the concealed handgun license holder whose gun caused such damage to the 72-year-old woman’s body in January last year, and a personal injury civil suit seeking to alleviate the victim’s financial burden was recently settled. http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/kingwood/news/civil-suit-in-raffa-s-shooting-settles-injuries-remain/article_2df0bb8e-1479-5f82-88e5-387fecf63cf0.html Shooting occurred in Jan, 2011. Not sure what the then CHL requirements were, but the current License to Carry (LTC) requirements, revised in 2015, are linked below. Duration is 4-years for initial issue and 5 thereafter for renewals. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/LicenseRegistration/chlQualCourse.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 One other question I have is how wide an array of handguns does a CHL cover? Some reasonable similarity with the one used to qualify would seem appropriate. Extending it from a Glock to a derringer seems a bit far-fetched. Here's an account of the shooting at the time. http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/kingwood/news/police-shooting-at-raffa-s-accidental/article_e6750c6a-2f09-5311-ae07-48726a119464.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 a couple hundred million gun owners, and we get Tour's ONE incident, which is a dumb incident... http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/americas-got-talent-flaming-arrow-stunt-accident-ryan-stock-1201829654/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23849364 https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/diseases/needlestick_injuries.html http://abcnews.go.com/Health/sex-accidents-send-victims-er-week/story?id=21267607 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 a couple hundred million gun owners, and we get Tour's ONE incident, which is a dumb incident... It was the one incident I personally knew of... and it was "dumb"... but it was also one that involved an elderly gent, the point Cleve was making. Rest was around the discussion bb initiated around whether state proficiency tests were adequate. Texas' sounded pretty rigorous, but not as much so as what I saw bb mentioning. Can't help it if you're too butt-hurt to see my intent. But if you want more, I'll see what I can do... Looks like bathrooms are a "bad guy"... did not vet these from 2014... feel free to do so... most have embedded links. • Last Thursday, an elementary school teacher in a Salt Lake City suburb unwittingly discharged her concealed weapon in the faculty bathroom. The bullet shattered a toilet, sending shards into her leg and her to the hospital. The school promptly made crisis counselors available to students, reports the AP, which adds this context: • On September 6, an off-duty cop accidentally fired a round inside the restroom of a Target in Honolulu. The bullet bounced off a stall door before drilling another stall. He allegedly called 911, but the incident never appeared in the police department's public reports, leading TV station KHON2 to wonder if somebody tried to cover up the mishap. • In June, a veteran detective with New Jersey's Camden County Prosecutor's Office shot himself in the leg at his office's loo. Informs the South Jersey Times: "Prosecutor's office spokesman Jason Laughlin confirmed the accidental shooting on Monday. However, he said he could not confirm a Philadelphia Inquirer report stating the detective was seated or about to sit when the gun fired." • A man was walking to the bathroom (OK, this one squeaks by) in April in Attleboro, Massachusetts, when the gun in his pocket went off. The bullet hit him and then struck his wife in the foot, says the Sun Chronicle, sending both to the hospital. • In December, a man had to be carted away in an ambulance from an Italian restaurant in Kentucky when his concealed weapon punched a new hole in his body. Reports the News-Enterprise: "He set his pistol on the toilet paper dispenser while using the restroom and it slipped off and shot him in the leg, said Elizabethtown Police Sgt. David Neary." • Last spring, customers at a Burger King in Manchester Township, Pennsylvania, were shocked by what sounded like a "cannon going off" in the men's room. The source, writes the York Dispatch, was a guy whose 9mm pistol discharged, sending him into a panic as he tried to flee through an emergency exit (and then, when it wouldn't open, the front door). http://www.citylab.com/crime/2014/09/americans-who-carry-concealed-weapons-keep-accidentally-shooting-themselves-in-public-bathrooms/380327/ Turns out serious statistics are hard to come by through a combination of state laws protecting data and a Congressional ban on funding federal data collection. You want me to expand the discussion to non-accidental shootings? OK... but again this is unvetted... ... a methodical gleaning of eight years of news accounts by the Violence Policy Center, a gun safety group, found that in research involving 722 deaths in 544 concealed-carry shootings in 36 states and the District of Columbia, only 16 cases were eventually ruled lawful self-defense — even though this has been a major gun rights selling point for the new laws. More gravely, the study found that the fatalities included 17 law enforcement officers shot by people with legal permits along with 705 slain civilians. There were 28 mass shootings (involving three or more victims) in which 136 people were killed — even though concealed carry has also been sold as a defense against massacres like the one in Newtown, Conn. In studying the 544 shootings, the center found 177 cases where people with gun licenses were ultimately convicted of crimes, including homicides, and 218 cases where the permit holder used the gun to commit suicide. There were 44 total lives taken by licensed individuals who first murdered others, then committed suicide. The full death toll attributable to concealed carry is undoubtedly larger because the center’s study did not cover all 50 states. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/opinion/concealed-carrys-body-count.html?_r=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 That's much better. Of course it happens. It also happens that I can list hundreds of occurences where men, women and even kids have used a gun in their home or elsewhere, to protect themselves very accurately and excellently. Seems that going to the bathroom and the guns goes off.... the benefit of a semi-auto is ..almost always... for one thing.... the safety. I personally don't carry with one in the chamber unless it's in the evening, in certain circumstances. Some carry with one in the chamber always. But they use their safety always. I'm just guessing, that the accicdental going off, is because somebody worked on the trigger themselves. Hey, I took my old .22 magnum rifle and got a new trigger for it. The nitwit kid gunsmith was done, I went out to target shoot/sight it in. Sat down, pointed it at the target, (bolt action), used the bolt action to load a shell, and as soon as I went forward with the bolt action, ...it fired. Had I been careless, it could have shot bout anything around me for a half mile/mile. That's just one of my rules, operate a gun at a target...or the ground. If it's a revolver, pretty much it doesn't have a safety, but should have a safe trigger pull. personally, I think I would carry a revolver with two empty prominent chambers (back up gun), but that's just me. I can list a long list of injuries with knives. and cars. some rope injuries. Farm equipment injuries. Swimming pools injuries, swingsets injuries. Maybe doornob injuries, garage door injuries, popcorn shrimp, jumbo shrimp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 22, 2016 Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 wait, was the restaurant sued for liability despite posting no firearms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted August 22, 2016 Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 Always carry one in the chamber, with no safety. Guns don't tend to go off by themselves even if dropped. If you had a double action revolver pre cocked, maybe a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 22, 2016 Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 Good rule(s)... wasn't a Remington by chance was it? OK... communication... even a touch of agreement... good. I will even throw in that the suicide stats with no one else involved (174 by my math) likely have nothing to do with the demised having been issued a LTC... if you own a gun and want to go last thing to be concerned about is legalities of carrying it to a spot you've chosen. Those need to be culled from the stats. Suicides with another involved? Case by case, e.g., in the gun owner's home then out, but if out and about then in. Fair? So with that said back to questions I initially asked... or at least danced around... Is it not reasonable for some amount of personal liability insurance to be required to have an LTC? It's required to drive in every state. Should a LTC be good for any handgun or only ones similar to that on which you were certified? Your revolver vs. semi-auto example would seem to say it would be a good idea. Certainly a semi vs a "derringer in the pocket" would qualify I'd think. As for for pools, etc... sure accidents happen, but if they involve guests then your homeowners liability coverage is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 Is it not reasonable for some amount of personal liability insurance to be required to have an LTC? It's required to drive in every state. ******************************* No. though it does sound logical superficially, consider that the obamao/dems/higgardly anti-gun ownership would use insurance rates to eliminate gun ownership for those who couldn't afford it. A young single guy can have driver's insurance of way over a thousand bucks... In driving, people drive most every day. right next to the other side of the expressway, other side of the road. Nobody shoots every day, nobody shoots right along somebody else shooting right by them... okay, that's funny, but true. There is optional insurance for ccw folks, though. Car insurance rates are often? predicated partly on how much you drive to work, etc etc. and, gun ownership insurance would encourage scams of all sorts, because there is 'free money there'. This would make ant-second amendment folks happy - they would encourage those frivolous lawsuits. Should a LTC be good for any handgun or only ones similar to that on which you were certified? Your revolver vs. semi-auto example would seem to say it would be a good idea. Certainly a semi vs a "derringer in the pocket" would qualify I'd think. No, because again, that opens the door to leftwing anti-gun redefinition of terms, to legally harass all gun owners, imho. I can imagine a derringer in a pocket catching on keys or a pen, for example, pulling the trigger and accidently going off. The pocket carry, unless designed for said carry, seems like a very bad idea. I would suggest that all concealed carry guns be in a holster for security. I don't know about revolvers that much for concealed carry. Maybe the state should mandate the specific train for semis vs revolvers etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 So basically slippery slopes are everywhere? Liability insurance rates are a private market set by statistics. I can see the NRA ads now... similar to the AARP's Humana Medicare Advantage offerings. If the risk is as low as the stats I dug up and you believe them to be, then so too should be the rates. Age would likely be a factor, just as it is for driving, but so would other factors. "harass all gun owners" - How? Would seem by definition to only impact those who wish to concealed carry. The derringer "holster" seems reasonable. Does your suggestion extend to mandating holster carry for LTC's? Are shoulder, belt and ankle holsters all equally secure from an accidental discharge standpoint? Seems on revolvers vs. semis were close to agreement on at least requiring safety proficiency training, if not full firing qualification. I'd think not a huge issue though. A semi's profile, particularly depth, would seem to better suit it for concealment. Of course there are exceptions such as a work buddy's pride and joy, a Pasadena AutoMag. But it's moot in his case as it's a pure investment piece he never plans to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 So basically slippery slopes are everywhere? Liability insurance rates are a private market set by statistics. I can see the NRA ads now... similar to the AARP's Humana Medicare Advantage offerings. If the risk is as low as the stats I dug up and you believe them to be, then so too should be the rates. Age would likely be a factor, just as it is for driving, but so would other factors. "harass all gun owners" - How? Would seem by definition to only impact those who wish to concealed carry. The derringer "holster" seems reasonable. Does your suggestion extend to mandating holster carry for LTC's? Are shoulder, belt and ankle holsters all equally secure from an accidental discharge standpoint? Seems on revolvers vs. semis were close to agreement on at least requiring safety proficiency training, if not full firing qualification. I'd think not a huge issue though. A semi's profile, particularly depth, would seem to better suit it for concealment. Of course there are exceptions such as a work buddy's pride and joy, a Pasadena AutoMag. But it's moot in his case as it's a pure investment piece he never plans to shoot. The issue is that requiring insurance is fine for something that isn't supposed to be a constitutionally protected right. Driving is a privilege. We don't have a right to being able to operate a motor vehicle. Constitutional lawyers would crap all over the idea of liability insurance to get the privilege of owning a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 OK... but the 2nd Amendment doesn't pay the bills when an accidental discharge of a LTC'd handgun injures a citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 OK... but the 2nd Amendment doesn't pay the bills when an accidental discharge of a LTC'd handgun injures a citizen. However, the individual who negligently discharged the firearm is responsible for the full value of whatever damages they caused. Same as anything else. If I dropped a hammer on your foot, I would be on the hook for your medical bills. I wouldn't be opposed to offering tax payer covered gun safety courses and then accompany that with a law to punish people who poorly store or mishandle their firearms. It would make some people take gun ownership seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 However, the individual who negligently discharged the firearm is responsible for the full value of whatever damages they caused. Same as anything else. If I dropped a hammer on your foot, I would be on the hook for your medical bills. True, but only to the limits of the financial resources of the responsible party... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 True, but only to the limits of the financial resources of the responsible party...Tour ********************************************************* But there isn't a widespread political fight to ban driving altogether. Insurance for gun owners turns into a poltiical weapon - make it ten grand a year, people won't be able to afford to keep the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 True, but only to the limits of the financial resources of the responsible party... That also applies to anything. Should all people just walk around with liability insurance for everything just in case they are potentially sued for what might be perceived as a negligent injury to someone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 That also applies to anything. Should all people just walk around with liability insurance for everything just in case they are potentially sued for what might be perceived as a negligent injury to someone else? Actually... I do... it's called an umbrella policy... very high liability coverage atop auto and homeowners... and very cheap... like $12/yr for $300k. Whether LTC by me would be excluded, I do not know... don't need to know... but it would not surprise me if it was excluded. True, but only to the limits of the financial resources of the responsible party...Tour ********************************************************* But there isn't a widespread political fight to ban driving altogether. Insurance for gun owners turns into a poltiical weapon - make it ten grand a year, people won't be able to afford to keep the guns. But again... you are assuming a government program and the only Federal insurance programs are: Medicare/Medicaid and Flood. And the latter is only Federal because the insurers were refusing coverage of coastal properties... and Fed Flood is administered through private insurers. It would be reasonable to find out what the likely premiums would be, and what the key variables would be, before enacting the regulations... in fact most states require cost impact analysis... as does the Federal Gov't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 true. but the problem is this - do you think higgardly, bloomberg and the like would love to get laws passed in a dem Congress that mandated gun insurance to be ten times as expensive after the fact of any implementation of a "common sense" law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 True, but only to the limits of the financial resources of the responsible party... The legal system is not the lottery even though too many people believe it is. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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