LondonBrown Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Grayson isn't the answer ffs he has very a low ceiling, I hope Farmer isn't this stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColumbusKing Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Who? He is the 3rd string QB on the steelers, he played at Oklahoma in college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Grayson reminds me of Manning, and not in a good way. He's 23(?) and he already looks as athletic as a 40-year old with neck issues. I like what goes on in Grayson's head, but athletically he leaves something to be desired. Then your priorities on what matters when selecting a QB are backwards. If whats between his ears looks good, his athletic ability is a far distant 2nd place issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Grayson reminds me of Manning, and not in a good way. He's 23(?) and he already looks as athletic as a 40-year old with neck issues. I like what goes on in Grayson's head, but athletically he leaves something to be desired. If that is the case it might be worth throwing a late 3rd or 4th to get him. You never know what guys who work in NFL conditioning may do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Of all the QB prospects this year, he was the only one who played in a traditional pro style offense. Mannion was under center more than any of them in a pro set offense. Neither solve STarting QB issue IMO. Grayson is 3-4 Rnd. Mannion 5-6 Rnd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 I'm sure they do. But what I'm saying is...how do past players and coaches have any effect on the success of any players we pick? Come on, you know that. All of human nature is built on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmusch Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Grayson would just be a waste. Either draft Mariota or stick with Manziel for one more year. No point taking Petty, Hundley, Grayson, etc. Since they all have question marks, like Manziel, but do not possess his upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 manziel is the only one with an upside that you mentioned? upside to what, falling off the wagon? every player in every draft since the beginning of drafts have had question marks. dude even winston and mariota have question marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Last season when everything else was in place and working well together we won games with Brian Hoyer at quarterback. So what does Brian Hoyer do better than Josh McCown? In which areas is he a superior player? If it's nothing why couldn't that same success happen again? If McCown is the opening day starter. WSS Can't argue with that. In Chicago WITH a good running game - McCown was a very pleasant surprise and well liked by the fans. His critics like to over-emphasize the Tampa experience; BUT his running game ranked about 31st for a good portion of the year. I think our offense and running game in particular is built more like Chicago's was - only I like our oline way better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted April 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Come on, you know that. All of human nature is built on it. Yeah, I know. I'm just taking my anger on the stupidity of the front office out on you. I'm a firm believer in not letting the past dictate current behavior, especially when it comes to drafting. Brady Quinn being a terrible bust has absolutely no influence whatsoever on what a QB prospect will do in this year's draft, yet fans (and haters) everywhere like to scream "OH GOD BRADY QUINN, TIM COUCH, BRANDON WEEDEN. WE DONT NEED TO TAKE A FIRST ROUND GUY LOOK AT TOM BRADY". On a similar note, I think, in some small way, the guys who get paid to make the mocks (Kiper, McShay, etc.) actually have a very slight influence on how the draft pans out. Sure, most teams are going to pick who they want to pick to fill their needs. But I think there have been some shitty front offices (like many of our previous regimes) that see a trend of receivers going early and they panic, throw out their scouting report and overvalue a prospect solely because they're worried on losing out on a huge prospect. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. One week, Kiper says "Oh I can see so-and-so receiver go to Jacksonville at #7, way ahead of his predicted slot at #25, because they have XYZ needs and he's a physical freak. It may be a reach but that's what they need." Then McShay says "Well, in that case, I see this receiver going even earlier to New York as #5, because he had a better combine performance and fits that need and loves Jay-Z".......and then you have two guys who are arbitrarily mocked earlier that they maybe should have been, which then throws off everyone. Now, when the draft rolls around and that guy who WAS mocked to go to New York "falls" to Cleveland at #8 or whatever, Cleveland panics and takes him just because he was "expected" to go to New York, and the perceived value is there (even though his original ranking was closer to the end of the first). So, my solution is...fuck mock drafts. Fuck Mel Kiper and fuck Todd McShay. Fuck Walter Football. If you actually work for an NFL organization, throw away your TV after the Super Bowl and don't buy another one until the day after the draft. Scout your players, discover your needs, and pick based on value and fit, not based on historical trends and current mock leanings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Can't argue with that. In Chicago WITH a good running game - McCown was a very pleasant surprise and well liked by the fans. His critics like to over-emphasize the Tampa experience; BUT his running game ranked about 31st for a good portion of the year. I think our offense and running game in particular is built more like Chicago's was - only I like our oline way better. If he can hit the deep ball with any success, he's a big improvement over Hoyer. How many close games were lost that would've been won if we had scored just one more TD. The first Baltimore game comes to mind as one that Hoyer missed several deep passes on guys wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 I believe he's implying he doesn't feel the top tier QB's are franchise changers. In which I'm inclined to agree. Exactly, assuming you mean in this draft class. Winston being the exception IMO but of course if 11 other teams pass on him, the smart play is probably just doing the same. Is Grayson "top tier"? I ask, because this was not a thread about JW or MM... So long as you do not have a franchise QB on the roster you have to be willing to spend a Day 2 pick on a prospect with a good chance of developing to starter level. I don't think Grayson or Hundley qualify, but I think Petty does. Good chance would lie somewhere in the 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 range. Day 3 prospects with #2 potential and low chance of starter have to be considered. Low chance ~ 1 in 10... UDFAs? Cast a net... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Because you can either take a likely unsuccessful QB or a defender or OL that's likely to be a solid starter in 1-3 years. So because QB is the hardest position to project, stay away? It's riskier to draft a QB, but the reward of hitting on one is higher than any other position. You cannot consider the risk without considering the reward. Some pistol, some twin spits, 5 wide and at times under center with a single back. And there it is... Pro Style = Takes Snaps Under Center Grayson reminds me of Manning, and not in a good way. He's 23(?) and he already looks as athletic as a 40-year old with neck issues. I like what goes on in Grayson's head, but athletically he leaves something to be desired. Then your priorities on what matters when selecting a QB are backwards. If whats between his ears looks good, his athletic ability is a far distant 2nd place issue. Only after an athletic threshold is surpassed. Athletically Grayson looks very borderline to me. So, my solution is...fuck mock drafts. Fuck Mel Kiper and fuck Todd McShay. Fuck Walter Football. So long as you exempt The Browns Board Mock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 So because QB is the hardest position to project, stay away? It's riskier to draft a QB, but the reward of hitting on one is higher than any other position. You cannot consider the risk without considering the reward. And there it is... Pro Style = Takes Snaps Under Center Only after an athletic threshold is surpassed. Athletically Grayson looks very borderline to me. So long as you exempt The Browns Board Mock... I guess I consider a pro style offense to be under center at least 35-40% of your snaps. Colorado State sure doesn't look like they're anywhere near that margin. However Grayson, unlike most other QB this draft save for Winston, actually has some experience under center. Most great QB's in today's game are limited athletes. I'm trying to think of elite passers that are elite scramblers and only Rodgers and Luck come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Peyton and Brady are so athletic.... more than Grayson? Like Marino and Stabler were athletic? Joe Namath with the decripit knees? I think not. By that standard, you wouldn't have Sipe or Kosar as your qb's. A lot of qb's can have athletic talent, and an arm...but it's the qb brain and heart that is a lot tougher to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 This whole 'athletic QB' thing is a recent manifestation that really hasn't proven out..... It's fairly established that QB's with just a brain and an arm can succeed at a high level......and the ability to run has been just an extra bonus... but, now, it's all the rage. Except these "amazing physical specimens" really haven't done or won enough to establish that "legs" are more important than "arms & brains".....or even needed to succeed.... Ill take a Brady, Manning, Marino type over a Newton, Manziel or Vick everyday of the week.....(and, especially, on Sundays) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Grayson would just be a waste. Either draft Mariota or stick with Manziel for one more year. No point taking Petty, Hundley, Grayson, etc. Since they all have question marks, like Manziel, but do not possess his upside. I dont really get this.....but would say they all have upside......and, if taken later in the draft, would have greater upside than someone like JFF taken in the first...... Who doesn't have question marks?....they all do.....every year...... Guess all those teams who selected QB's with question marks were dumb when they picked Wilson, Brady, Montana, etc Bottom line.....you gotta keep swinging till you get a hit........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmusch Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 My point was for Grayson, Hundley, and Petty it would be a waste of a 2nd or 3rd Rounder. They bring nothing to the table (talent-wise) that is any different than Manziel at this point. Also two of them are older. If we swing this year it better be for Mariota and no one else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 That's physically. But the work ethic and head screwed on straight, Grayson and Petty have that, and have that bigtime. We don't know how well JM can read pro defenses. We don't know how well Petty can do that in the pros...as well as others. Winston is a mental case, nobody knows if he can change, "grow up" and be the guy who inspires kids and fans alike, or ends up in prison. Take Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf, for example. Leaf was a runner up for the Heisman. Strong thrower. Peyton had his character, heart, and work ethic and football IQ, and leaf was a mental case who partied all night and yawned at his press conference. Leaf was said to be arrogant, etc. So has Winston been called arrogant. Scouts debated which one would be the best bet. For me, it would have been Peyton because of his character, work ethic, love for the game. It's a very interesting read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Leaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 My point was for Grayson, Hundley, and Petty it would be a waste of a 2nd or 3rd Rounder. They bring nothing to the table (talent-wise) that is any different than Manziel at this point. Also two of them are older. If we swing this year it better be for Mariota and no one else Well, we all have our opinions......and I disagree with yours completely..... I think Petty and Grayson have a LOT of tools that JFF doesn't have(including the maturity that comes with age)....in fact, JFF really doesn't have most of the standard tools you look for.....size, football accumen, maturity, etc......while some of these other guys do.... so, JFF has to overcome his size, obvious head issues, learn how to play under center, grow up and mature, all while learning NFL style play.... while these other guys basically just have to overcome a lack of experience and learn the game at an NFL level...... JFF may have more upside.......but only because he is so freaking low right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Can't argue with that. In Chicago WITH a good running game - McCown was a very pleasant surprise and well liked by the fans. His critics like to over-emphasize the Tampa experience; BUT his running game ranked about 31st for a good portion of the year. I think our offense and running game in particular is built more like Chicago's was - only I like our oline way better. Especially with Andrus Peat. (or however its spelled) WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Again, there is a threshold for QB athleticism. Peyton and Brady are so athletic.... more than Grayson? Brady? Yes... he was not athletic coming out of college, but developed athleticism as a pro. Peyton? No, but are you seriously comparing Grayson's head to Peyton's? Like Marino and Stabler were athletic? Marino? Yes, he was. What he was not was a runner. Folks forget how big Dan was. Early on Dan was Ben-like. Stabler? Yup, him, too. College Ken ran for nearly 400 yards his Jr year at BAMA. Pro Ken played in an era when training was optional. Joe Namath with the decripit knees? No, but college Joe could run... until the first knee. But there was always that arm and that release. I think not. By that standard, you wouldn't have Sipe or Kosar as your qb's. Sipe? Yes... Brian moved well Kosar? No. While I love Bernie as much as anyone, we all know his lack of mobility was a liability. And if you objectively look at the stats he left behind him, it shows. A lot of qb's can have athletic talent, and an arm...but it's the qb brain and heart that is a lot tougher to find. Totally agree... especially with the brain part, but that does not mean that those two alone can succeed without the athletic talent which includes the arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Ill take a Brady, Manning, Marino type over a Newton, Manziel or Vick everyday of the week.....(and, especially, on Sundays) Yeah, but that's not what I am saying... and I'm not that sure about Marino's "head", but set that aside for now. Again, I'm talking physical threshold. Of the three heads you list, only the Manning of today falls short, but Peyton's head is so far beyond any other QB that he has still had success. That said, I think it is undeniable that that call is now is now getting closer every year. Surely he fall below the threshold before dementia sets in... Rather than Vick & Co. the other side of the argument I am making is better rep'd by the Staffords and Hoyers and Fitzpatricks. All have great heads and solid skillsets that just do not overcome their physical limitations. I dont really get this.....but would say they all have upside......and, if taken later in the draft, would have greater upside than someone like JFF taken in the first...... Bottom line.....you gotta keep swinging till you get a hit........ Totally agree with the closing. Would only tweek the opening by saying the potential value is greater in succeeding rounds because the expenditure is lower. Also while the odds of realizing that value are longer, if realized, then the value was greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 My point was for Grayson, Hundley, and Petty it would be a waste of a 2nd or 3rd Rounder. They bring nothing to the table (talent-wise) that is any different than Manziel at this point. Also two of them are older. If we swing this year it better be for Mariota and no one else they can all see over the offensive line. can't say the same about manziel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Peyton? No, but are you seriously comparing Grayson's head to Peyton's? Tour ******************************************************** Of course not. I simply was talking about Peyton's physical athleticism. I think I'd only compare Peyton's brains with Kosar's in football quarterbacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 they can all see over the offensive line. can't say the same about manziel. Yeah Drew Brees and Russell Wilson can't see over their lines either. What ever will they do?! At least be rational in your hate for Johnny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 They are called passing lanes or windows threw the lineman and Brees and Wilson figured them out in college. JF sees it as pump it and run, its fixable if he would trust his OL and not look down his WR's.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 GOD, how old IS David Grayson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 GOD, how old IS David Grayson? i heard he's putting in for his social security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Yeah Drew Brees and Russell Wilson can't see over their lines either. What ever will they do?! At least be rational in your hate for Johnny. i don't hate manziel or anyone really (except isis). i kinda dislike him for not taking his first year as an nfl rookie seriously enough. and i also disliked the horde of media that surrounded everything he or hoyer did, essentialy putting pressure on the FO and coaches tostart him when they should've known better. and then there were the johhny boy queefs. don't get me started on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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