Mudfly Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Ok.....just want to share some thoughts and theories on our guy Justin Gilbert...... A lot of this is just my theory and a lot is based upon me going back and looking at his game really hard......here are my conclusions(first)..... 1) He will be very VERY good. And, I think it starts this year. 2) He would be the 1st corner off the board this year too. A MUCH higher ceiling than Trae Waynes. 3) He already IS the best CB from last years draft. Finishing the season much stronger than Dennard or Fuller or Roby did..... The overriding issue is simply "what IS his issue"????......I can tell you it's not drugs....nor effort....nor talent....nor thugness.....nor any of that......he clearly is a clean, dedicated and supreme athlete..... I think his issue is EGO.....and confidence in himself(over his coaches)(same issue he had to overcome in college)...... Simply put, he's so talented he doesn't want to be coached.....and he tends to rely on his instincts and athletic ability as opposed to trusting the coaches system.....and THIS is a battle with Pettine that he is losing......and one that is costing him playing time.....(he will learn)(and then...he will play great)..... So.....I went back through all the games(again) watching just him play and did a ton of research on the other Cb's, rankings, #'s, etc........here are some of the things I saw......and some things that you may not know.... 1) He made some huge mistakes in games 1 and 3 and paid the price....(and these 2 games pretty much set the trend that "he sucks".....while we were hearing how great Fuller was....remember?) But they were his only 2 really "bad" games...... 2) So....after game #3 Gilbert already had earned a very low -5.6 score, while Fuller was sitting at an amazing +5.9.....WOW, A HUGE DIFFERENCE......thats when every one started screaming he sucks, we picked the wrong guy, I wanted Fuller all along, yada yada, etc etc etc....... 3) But......games 4 thru 16?..... you find Gilbert scoring +3.1 and Fuller scoring a -24.4......um, hello?....talk about sucking bad.....wow! 4) And Dennard??......He was so bad he only played 60 snaps.....so there's that..... 5) And when you actually watch him play....Gilbert, that is.....you see that he is fluid, smooth, fast and has had some really great moments "for the Browns"......he's even out pointed Haden several games this year....and, I think, he is way too talented to keep on the bench.....several games this year he played GREAT and no one even noticed, which is what happens when no balls go to his side....out of sight/out of mind....... So.....my money is on him realizing how it has to go with Pettine....and giving it everything he's got(cause he has a winners ego)....and stepping up to create the #1 nightmare CB duo in the league....and in maybe 2 or 3 years, HE will be the Best CB on the Browns(and maybe in the league)... THATS my crazy prediction.......but this guy aint a Leon McFadden and one only needs to see him play to know he is a premium talent and way too talented to just flame out........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 the tandem of haden and gilbert will be cemented as the best duo in the NFL after this year. haden will start to fade in like 5 years as gilbert is in his prime. who knows maybe dessir can then step in and fill the shoes of an career all-pro? gilbert and evans were the guys i was sweating last year in the draft. everyone still bitches about not taking watkins and trading down and selecting gilbert. i've always stated that that move will be aces for years to come when people mention how badass the brown's defense is. now add shelton and your edge rushing pass defending LB and it's a done deal. NEXT: offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Here is his Draft analysis from last year.... ANALYSIS STRENGTHS: Outstanding size-speed ratio and athletic ability. Fluid movement skills -- makes it look easy flipping his hips and reacting to the thrown ball. Very good transitional quickness and recovery speed. Superb feet and agility to pop out of his breaks and close on the ball -- explosively quick. Natural interceptor with very good hand-eye coordination, leaping ability and overall ball skills. Very good vision and traffic burst as a returner (six career kickoff-return TDs). WEAKNESSES: Is a bit soft-tempered -- not as aggressive or physical in run support as you would expect for his size. Can do a better job shedding blockers. Too often lets teammates arrive first at the scene. Spent time in the doghouse as a young player. Has some growing up to do -- maintains a lockdown corner's ego, at times coasts on his natural talent and is not immune to mental errors. BOTTOM LINE: The most talented cover corner in this year's draft class, Gilbert has size, speed and flexibility to blanket receivers at the next level. Also brings impact ability as a kick returner. Is capable of stepping into the starting lineup from Day 1 and playing at a high level if he adheres to a professional approach to the craft. Could stand to improve in run support. Id say it was pretty spot on.....now, like college, time for him to get out of the doghouse and into the DAWG POUND! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Don't understand why his attitude was so fucked up last year. Guy gets drafted number one and then doesn't perform? Kind of shows a poor work ethic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andeftw Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 4) And Dennard??......He was so bad he only played 60 snaps.....so there's that..... I agree with most of your points, although I don't think Gilbert will turn out to be better than Haden anytime soon. But there's no way you can say Dennard was bad with such a small sample size. Cincinnati just doesn't put defensive backs on the field early on in their careers. Just look at how long it took Lewis to trust Kirkpatrick enough, as a soon as he did the guy won them the game against the Broncos with two picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Don't understand why his attitude was so fucked up last year. Guy gets drafted number one and then doesn't perform? Kind of shows a poor work ethic. i dunno. maybe it was the inflated ego thing. i mean you get introduced on a big stage flying to cleveland with one of the biggest hyped QBs ever to be picked. sorta like they were joined at the hip. i give manziel a lot of grief BUT that media thing last year could've made the biggest man go crying off into a corner. both need to man-up at this point. I agree with most of your points, although I don't think Gilbert will turn out to be better than Haden anytime soon. But there's no way you can say Dennard was bad with such a small sample size. Cincinnati just doesn't put defensive backs on the field early on in their careers. Just look at how long it took Lewis to trust Kirkpatrick enough, as a soon as he did the guy won them the game against the Broncos with two picks. the love for players on other team's rosters amazes me. sure other players on other teams can be great and superstars but fuck 'em, they don't play for the browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Don't understand why his attitude was so fucked up last year. Guy gets drafted number one and then doesn't perform? . Part of the point is that he did perform pretty well in a number of games, as the season wore on. Does need to grow up though....like so many rookies do.....along with West and Manziel..... I agree with most of your points, although I don't think Gilbert will turn out to be better than Haden anytime soon. But there's no way you can say Dennard was bad with such a small sample size. Cincinnati just doesn't put defensive backs on the field early on in their careers. Just look at how long it took Lewis to trust Kirkpatrick enough, as a soon as he did the guy won them the game against the Broncos with two picks. Yeah...the Haden thing was my "crazy" prediction.....so thats all it is.......but Gilbert def has the physical tools to do it.... On the Dennard thing...and at the rsik of this becoming about the Bengals(and not Gilbert)......I cant say he was "bad", because he didnt play.....but Ill speculate if he played well, he would have made it on the field.....you said the Bengals dont play rookie CBs(so I looked, of course).......and they have 4 that they've picked in the first round in recent years....lets have a look, shall we?... Dennard.........1st rd 2014........70 plays Kirkpatrick......1st rd 2012........43/363/280......(plus, gotta wonder WHY pick Dennard, when you just tapped Kirkpatrick??) Hall.................1st rd 2007........870/1050/1050......3000 plays 3yrs vs 700 for Kirkpatrick.... Joseph...........1st rd 2006........904/840/982...........2800 plays 3yrs..... So....what I see is 2 first rounders who stepped in, played lots of snaps and started immediately....then I see Kirkpatrick who didnt. And, after 3 years, I see him getting even less snaps than the year before(and not ever being a starter)....and now his team has gone and picked another CB in the first round....so, Im not seeing anything but signs that he's not a quality starting CB and I AM seeing the Bengals starting rookies(who played well)....and if he was good, he'd be playing and his team wouldn't be spending more 1st round picks on CB's like Dennard.......call me crazy..... So, Dennard cant get more than 70 snaps with a team that has a very very average defensive backfield......Yet Gilbert goes almost 400 snaps on the best pass defense in the league.... Even Desir had more snaps than Dennard.....and he was our 5th CB and didnt even play until week 15 i give manziel a lot of grief BUT that media thing last year couldn't made the biggest man go crying off into a corner. both need to man-up at this point. fuck 'em, they don't play for the browns. Yep....they both need to man up(west too).....not uncommon for rookies......I think they will and, at least with Gilbert, the rest of the tools are there for him to succeed in spades....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Mudfly, I hope you're right but I don't find PFF as the Bible that many on here seem to take it as. Gilbert seems to have all the physical tools you'd want to see a DB have but he was still in the wrong place from time to time at the end of the year. I still think it is too early to call him a bust but to call his rookie campaign as anything but average is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Mudfly, I hope you're right but I don't find PFF as the Bible that many on here seem to take it as. Gilbert seems to have all the physical tools you'd want to see a DB have but he was still in the wrong place from time to time at the end of the year. I still think it is too early to call him a bust but to call his rookie campaign as anything but average is insane. Well I dont think it's a bible either(it's just another tool to use).....and PFF doesnt rate Gilbert all that high(9th for rookies who played 350+)......So Im mostly commenting on what I watched of him on the all 22's and how he actually played when in the game.....and reviewing his draft profile to see how far from it he fell...... I guess the big difference I see......say between him and JFF.....is all he has to do is focus more, cause everything else is there. Jff, on the other hand, still has physical limitations and such to overcome, along with the focus & maturity issues...... So, I dont think my perspective is insane or anything.... because I never said he played above average or was great....just trying to quell the view that he completely sucked and is/was a complete bust.....as there is no basis for that(other than reading some idiots twitter or something)..... Tho...there were a couple games where he was close to great...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal312 Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Can't wait until the season starts. Gilbert will be much better thanks to the tutelage of Joe Haden. There are teams that would take our secondary in a New York minute. Now the Browns need to sign Tashaun Gipson and soon. Can't let him walk next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Another good analysis Mudfly. Just as in GM Ray Farmer's case once you get past the headlines and dig deeper things look a lot better. Whatever Gilbert's problem was he has promised this season he will make it right and I am looking forward to seeing him part of an elite secondary in the NFL with the Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Mud - what was Desir's PFF score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andeftw Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Part of the point is that he did perform pretty well in a number of games, as the season wore on. Does need to grow up though....like so many rookies do.....along with West and Manziel..... Yeah...the Haden thing was my "crazy" prediction.....so thats all it is.......but Gilbert def has the physical tools to do it.... On the Dennard thing...and at the rsik of this becoming about the Bengals(and not Gilbert)......I cant say he was "bad", because he didnt play.....but Ill speculate if he played well, he would have made it on the field.....you said the Bengals dont play rookie CBs(so I looked, of course).......and they have 4 that they've picked in the first round in recent years....lets have a look, shall we?... Dennard.........1st rd 2014........70 plays Kirkpatrick......1st rd 2012........43/363/280......(plus, gotta wonder WHY pick Dennard, when you just tapped Kirkpatrick??) Hall.................1st rd 2007........870/1050/1050......3000 plays 3yrs vs 700 for Kirkpatrick.... Joseph...........1st rd 2006........904/840/982...........2800 plays 3yrs..... So....what I see is 2 first rounders who stepped in, played lots of snaps and started immediately....then I see Kirkpatrick who didnt. And, after 3 years, I see him getting even less snaps than the year before(and not ever being a starter)....and now his team has gone and picked another CB in the first round....so, Im not seeing anything but signs that he's not a quality starting CB and I AM seeing the Bengals starting rookies(who played well)....and if he was good, he'd be playing and his team wouldn't be spending more 1st round picks on CB's like Dennard.......call me crazy..... So, Dennard cant get more than 70 snaps with a team that has a very very average defensive backfield......Yet Gilbert goes almost 400 snaps on the best pass defense in the league.... Even Desir had more snaps than Dennard.....and he was our 5th CB and didnt even play until week 15 I think the issue with both Kirkpatrick and Dennard is that the Bengals are competing for a playoff spot yearly these days. My assumption is that with Hall, Jones and Newman they decided to opt for experience rather than the potential of young CBs, who tend to have growing pains in their first few years in the league. I'm not sure what they DB situation was like back in 06/07, but I'd assume they didn't have serviceable veterans. If I'm not mistaken Kirkpatrick only started playing more snaps after Newman repeatedly gave up some big plays, at which point keeping a player with greater upside on the bench no longer made sense. Even though I think it's a coaching decision, I don't see how Dennard (or Kirkpatrick for that mater) will turn out to be a better player than Gilbert. There's a reason why Gilbert was a top 10 pick after all! He's got everything you want in a #1 CB as well as a great mentor in Haden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 So, watched Gilbert some more last night and focused on his 1st start which was against Brees & NO....he played a great game and was 100% shut down in the first half.....not one completion. The really interesting part was that Haden ended up having a really bad game.....and when I looked at games 1 & 3(2 others that Gilbert got a lot of playing time) I see Haden struggling again......Gotta say he was getting targeted pretty hard and, I think, it was because Gilberts side was unavailable(closed for business).....anyhoo.....looked back at the comments on this board from week 3 and guess what I found??.....threads screaming about how bad "Haden" sucks.....hahaha.....saying cut the bum......hahaha......(in WEEK 3....Oh my)..... So....could it be that Haden gets more balls when Gilbert is in, lowering his performance....and conversely.....Haden gets less balls when Skrine is in, cause Skrines side is open?......so, in the end, if he develops into a great CB, will Gilberts play expose Haden to more passes and maybe lower his ratings some?........interesting prospect..... So, anyway.......anyone who really wants to "see" Gilbert play and understand how talented he really is needs only to watch the NO's game.....or the Oakland game.....or the first Cinn game......or the Colts game.....What else is interesting is that the games he got a lot of snaps are also the games he played best.....and are also all wins, except Indy, which was still one of our finer defensive games... Mud - what was Desir's PFF score? Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average)..... So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions.... He's got everything you want in a #1 CB Exactly...which I guess is my overall point with this thread.....that this guy is uber talented and that supreme talent is just too good to keep on the bench too much longer..... And anyone who says he's a bust hasn't REALLY watched him play...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average)..... So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions..... I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU165 Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 When Hall and Joesph were drafted the bengals were bad and had no depth at CB. The Bengals didn't play Dennard because they didn't have to, so he was a luxury pick. Newman, Hall, and Jones were veterans who had the experience on a team who was a contender, they weren't going to break that up. He should get a shot this year to play and we will see how good he really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 as someone else stated above, let's not turn this into a bengals thread. F them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work because he does not have that burning turn and run speed needed for great corners. Or maybe more as the nichelback on sure passing downs. Either way a guy with "Browns" mentality and great character through handling life's adversities that is essential to a tough D. I think of him more as part of the glue that every team needs in the locker room somewhat like the more talented Joe Haden. This guy helps the team in any way they need from him even if it's just to pull the best out of more talented folks around him by example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 desir is built like a safety. those shoulders are crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work desir is built like a safety. those shoulders are crazy. Yep.....I think thats where well see him in the end....FS......and he could be part of the reason the Browns didnt jump to make Gipson rich this year...... with Gipsons knee injury AND the prospect that Desir will gain playing time, Im thinking they'll take another year(or 2) to evaluate Gipson and see which one rises to the top..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB... Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average. I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player. He does have some benefits though. 1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important. 2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure. 3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone. 4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well. Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 He was talking about Desir.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average. I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player. He does have some benefits though. 1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important. 2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure. 3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone. 4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well. Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well. dude, can you even read and comprehend? he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir. get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass. why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner? ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 dude, can you even read and comprehend? he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir. get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass. why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner? ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round. Hey dumbass, I never brought up Watkins. Stay on topic, or just shut up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 He was talking about Desir.... Thank you for pointing it out, I did miss that. At least you didn't act like a douche. Thank you. Rest of my post still applies though, but thanks. Nice to see normal people on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Yep, Desir's our #5 corner, not Gilbert... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Misunderstanding is punishable by death in the darker realms of the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Misunderstanding is punishable by death in the darker realms of the internet. I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol. mik grows on you over time. Like a fungus or something it's the drunken rants I love, followed by apologies the next day mik - don't change, we love you just the way you are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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