Incognito Reaction: I Don't Get It

[Spectralcow]

I wish I knew a better place to post this. It doesn't deal directly with the Browns, and for that I apologize. However, there was a Richard Sherman topic for awhile, so I guess this isn't that much of a leap.

 

Has the entire football-watching world gone insane? Is there something I'm seriously missing about the Incognito-Martin situation? I simply do not understand the extremely intense negative reaction people are having to this. It makes no sense to me.

 

The report is out now, so we've presumably heard all of the major details we're going to hear, and, I gotta tell ya, it doesn't sound all that terrible to me. A guy who isn't even Jon Martin got a male blowup doll as a gag gift, and the guy says he doesn't even remember it. That was one of the major revelations of the "pattern of harassment" the investigation uncovered. Really? That's the big deal?! The guys in the locker room said crude things about each others' mothers and sisters. Oh, and some players told Jon Martin he wasn't black enough. Those seem to be the big points of the investigation that support this "pattern of harassment". Seriously? That's it?! THAT is what all this fuss has been about?

 

Now listen, don't get me wrong here. I am not condoning any of these actions or excusing them as "okay to do". They are immature and inappropriate, and I'm on-board with saying that they should be avoided/discouraged. I don't, however, think it should be an NFL-rocking scandal. I don't think that person after person after person needs to fly into a berserker rage about how awful and unbelievable it is. The negative reaction to this has been ridiculous.

 

What makes it seem the most ridiculous is when you compare the reaction to the Martin-Incognito thing to the reactions to some actually serious behavior problems that have occurred across the NFL. Ray Rice just got arrested last night for getting into a physical altercation with his fiancée. Sure, it is in the news, but I don't see every sportscaster in the country red-faced and screaming about what a crime and what a problem it is. Chris Carter isn't practically in irate tears over it. In fact, there are domestic violence issues in the NFL seemingly all the time, and none of them get the attention that the Martin-Incognito situation got. Doesn't that seem insane to anyone else? We're more enraged by locker room jokes and name-calling between players than we are about abuse of women by professional male athletes? I live in the Pittsburgh area (but still in Ohio) and there wasn't as much noise about the Roethlisberger rape accusation in 2008 as there is about the Martin-Incognito thing. In fact, Roethlisberger has been accused of sexual assault 3 different times. Very few people insist that Ben not be allowed to play for the team anymore, and no one suggests that he may not be welcomed by any team in the league. But Incognito verbally "bullies" another NFL lineman and the world goes insane?

 

What is going on here? There are actual assault, drug, and weapons charges in the NFL all the time, and none of them seem to receive the level of negative backlash of the name-calling and "bullying" in the Dolphins locker room. Again, I'm not condoning the "bullying" or saying it shouldn't stop. It's bad; we can agree on that. But is it SO bad that it deserves a much more negative reaction than all of the other legitimately criminal things that happen around NFL players? I'm literally baffled by this. It's not right, maybe, but there are certainly much worse matters that get much less attention. Why is everyone freaking out to this degree about this?

 

[jcam222]

This appears to go far beyond an Incognito / Martin thing. it really appears as though the behaviors were well known by the coaching staff and best case scenario ignored and possibly even encouraged by some. Take this behavior into any other workplace and MANY people are fired and quite a few are involved in lawsuits stemming from their behavior.

 

I get that football is a business full of alpha males but there are ways to bust each others balls and act like "men" without all the crap that occured in and out of the Miami lockerroom. These things need to be dealt with swiftly and harshly. They need to send a message that harrasment is unacceptable. it is 100% no different than any other work envirnonment in that regard.

 

Regarding comparing it to assault, drug charges etc. I do not disagree those should be dealth with more harshly however drawing comparisons from one to the other means nothing. They are all issues and all need dealt with.

 

For those that will pile on and call me or some of the involved parties pussies for this stance you clearly have yet to figure out what being a real man means.

[The Gipper]

What has happened here is that things that have gone on since time immemorial suddenly become no-nos when someone complains about it.

 

Take Bountygate: every freaking NFL team in history practically probably had some kind of similar bounty program, but when it makes big news the Saints become the team to take the brunt.

 

Same here: every lockerroom since the days of Fritz Pollard had their hazing and juvenile behavior, but here someone took offense to it and took their ball and went home and it became big news.

 

Now, as far as I am concerned, these professional athletes CAN do without playing for bounties or acting like juvenile delinquents and bullies...but the fact is what these guys did is nothing new.

But there is nothing wrong with getting rid of this stuff and having these well paid players act like professionals.

[Spectralcow]

Right, that is the stance that people are taking (jcam), but again, (jcam) you are deflecting the issue I'm actually raising. I already agreed that what happened with the Dolphins was bad. Do whatever you like to them. Punish them as harshly as you like. Hang all of them and their families from yard arms if you like. But that doesn't answer the actual question I'm asking.

 

Why is THIS situation generating such a disproportionately negative reaction compared to actual crimes committed by NFL players? Why is Richie Incognito "a cancer" who should be "kicked off the team"/"never allowed to play football in the NFL again", but everyone just kind of grumbles for a minute and then forgets about it when an actual domestic violence case or drug case goes by?

 

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I have no reason to support Incognito or to side against Martin. I'm just pointing out how disproportionate the reactions to this are compared to what actually transpired.

 

If they are all issues that all need dealt with like you are claiming (and I agree), then why are we spending so much time focusing on the name-calling aspect and so little time focusing on the more serious (actually criminal) actions? Let's start with the serious ones and worry about name-calling when we get the actual assaults and rapes cleared up.

[Remarker]

What is being suggested...picking up Incognito and putting him in the Brown's locker room?

 

I know that's not being suggested but it's an easy way to make the 'Incognito types are not good for locker rooms or for the NFL's business model' point.

[bbedward]

Seems like they did normal jib jab. It sounds bad, but I'm sure it's taken entirely out of context.

 

My locker room in high school had lots of name calling, poking fun, etc. If I just quoted it over the internet it'd sound terrible. If I said it in context it wouldn't sound so bad.

 

If Martin thought things went too far he should have told them.

[jcam222]

Right, that is the stance that people are taking (jcam), but again, (jcam) you are deflecting the issue I'm actually raising. I already agreed that what happened with the Dolphins was bad. Do whatever you like to them. Punish them as harshly as you like. Hang all of them and their families from yard arms if you like. But that doesn't answer the actual question I'm asking.

 

Why is THIS situation generating such a disproportionately negative reaction compared to actual crimes committed by NFL players? Why is Richie Incognito "a cancer" who should be "kicked off the team"/"never allowed to play football in the NFL again", but everyone just kind of grumbles for a minute and then forgets about it when an actual domestic violence case or drug case goes by?

 

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I have no reason to support Incognito or to side against Martin. I'm just pointing out how disproportionate the reactions to this are compared to what actually transpired.

 

If they are all issues that all need dealt with like you are claiming (and I agree), then why are we spending so much time focusing on the name-calling aspect and so little time focusing on the more serious (actually criminal) actions? Let's start with the serious ones and worry about name-calling when we get the actual assaults and rapes cleared up.

I actually think you and I are on the same page on this. What I said relevant to that is "Regarding comparing it to assault, drug charges etc. I do not disagree those should be dealt with more harshly however drawing comparisons from one to the other means nothing. They are all issues and all need dealt with." The rest of the answer is more media driven as to what sells and also partially the answer lies in the evolution or our societies views on different crimes. I think to some degree the general public is used to and desensitized to NFL players who punch their girlfriends or assault someone at a club. Not saying its right its clearly wrong but its "old" news.

[ballpeen]

Martin is a big pussy.

 

 

I'd take Incognito on our team.

[Spectralcow]

Right. I agree completely, Jcam. But I'm suggesting that as a society we not embrace the idea that "what happened today is more important because it happened today." I'm suggesting that we not lose perspective on what is actually more serious just because we've heard it a number of times before. No one is on the screen screaming (Chris Carter was literally screaming about Richie Incognito) about Ray Rice today. But isn't an actual criminal assault charge/arrest a little more serious than some name-calling? I think that perspective has been lost here, and instead of embracing that, we should be reminding ourselves to correct it.

 

If the media surrounding the NFL was at all responsible, instead of each individual sportscaster ranting about how this was the worst thing they'd ever heard, they should have said something like, "This is unfortunate, and it shouldn't be happening, but, let's be honest, there are more serious player-behavior issues in the league that require more attention than this does."

 

Oh, and for the record, I'd be ecstatic to have Incognito on the team if they could get him at a super-discounted price because of all of this. The guy is a decent O-lineman, and now he's got something to prove.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Martin is a big pussy.

 

 

I'd take Incognito on our team.

You beat me too it.

[USFBrown]

Martin is a big pussy.

 

 

I'd take Incognito on our team.

 

Some of these guys have been dishing it out their whole life and can't take it when it comes back to them. I'm sure this locker room was no different than his highschool or college locker rooms.

 

Not saying it's justified. But you can't even get away with saying things like that at McDonalds.

[Spectralcow]

I didn't mean for this thread to be about whether Martin or Incognito was wrong, and I don't think that conversation is useful at this point. The point I was trying to make was that the amount and intensity of negative attention this situation has gotten has been grossly disproportionate to the seriousness of what actually happened (in comparison to other player behavior issues).

[Zombo]

This has been going on in football locker rooms forever. Then Jonathan Martin came along. He's from the coddled millennium generation and he was the first one to squeal.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to be around a guy like Incognito in a work environment .... Unless my work environment was the effing NFL. Then I would embrace it ... Because I was in the NFL! It belongs there. It's tough guys being idiots. Martin should take his Stanford degree and start a nice career as a CPA ... Because doesn't fit in the NFL.

 

Not a fan of RI, but we all know the NFL is full of guys like that, and they are accepted and embraced ... It is Martin that is out of place.

 

Go find another place.

 

Z

[Spectralcow]

Our society has become so focused on protecting everyone now that I feel like we've eroded people's ability to deal with adversity.

 

Some of you older guys may remember when you were young, we used to have a saying, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Now it has become "If someone says something you don't like, it has to become a huge federal case and no amount of overreaction is inappropriate."

 

I am completely against severe bullying or hazing that results in physical abuse. I am also against genuine racism in any form. I couldn't be a bigger supporter of gay rights than I am. But there has to be a line at which it's okay to just deal with small negative things without spazzing out. When this story first broke, I thought something awful had happened. I thought a bunch of guys held Martin down and raped him with a broom handle or beat him with a sock full of nickels. The lunchroom story came out and we were told, "Oh, no, that's not the extent of it. There were many more very terrible things that happened." So we waited. And, in the end, it came down to the fact that some guys in the Dolphins locker room were making fun of each other.

 

I am (by most accounts) a pretty liberal and compassionate guy, but, seriously, what happened over the past 20 years?! I played sports in school and I was in the military, and during those times, I would have PRAYED for the day when all of these things were the worst things that happened to me THAT DAY, let alone over a period of years. Seriously, people? Isn't there a danger to not being able to tolerate ANY negativity in your life at all? Do we honestly want people to be unable to cope with any diversity without a lot of attention and assistance from others?

 

The more we completely sympathize with everyone who considers themselves a victim, the broader the river of victims will become. We're not making the situation better by being overly sensitive to these types of things; we're making it worse.

[Motley_trap]

 

Why is THIS situation generating such a disproportionately negative reaction compared to actual crimes committed by NFL players? Why is Richie Incognito "a cancer" who should be "kicked off the team"/"never allowed to play football in the NFL again", but everyone just kind of grumbles for a minute and then forgets about it when an actual domestic violence case or drug case goes by?

I'd venture for two reasons;

 

1)The whole situation was weird and attention grabbing from the start. NFL players driving their own teammate to walk away, unusual in itself, then people were taken aback by the way Richie and Martin talked to each other.

 

2)Richie has a history. Suspensions, fights, clashes with players, coaches, fans. Very polarizing individual.

 

Perhaps drug related arrests or domestic violence cases should warrant stronger reactions, but IMO it's like hearing a musician or actor OD'ed last night. Commonplace enough for us to become desensitized to it.

[LogicIsForSquares]

Martin is a big pussy. He should have taken his lumps and learned from the tougher players.

[Spectralcow]

That explains the interest in the situation, and I agree with you, Motley. Hell, I obviously find it to be an interesting situation. That doesn't explain to me why people are so upset about it, though. Maybe that's just me; maybe I'm just not seeing it. But to me, saying, "Whoa, that's new/odd/different/strange," is different than saying, "This is the worst thing I've ever heard in my entire life!" Yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit, but if you think back to that first Sunday after the story broke, I'm not exaggerating that much. Both the media/sportscasters and the public were insane with rage about this. It could have been a news story about how strange it was. It didn't have to be a story about how unbelievably hellish it was or how Richie Incognito was the worst person on earth. Like I said, people like Chris Carter (I forget who else,... maybe Ditka), were all veins bulging and practically spitting on the camera. It was completely unnecessary and a HUGE overreaction to a guy getting called some names.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Martin is a big pussy. He should have taken his lumps and learned from the tougher players.

Exactly.

[miktoxic]

martin IS the little bitch in this situation and i smell a lawsuit coming from here to miami.

 

he doesn't like to work hard, can't play for shit and when the coaches ask his OL 'brotherhood' to try and toughen up he contemplates suicide?

 

NFL, get out your checkbook. martin will never play again but he'll cash out just fine.

[nickers]

no on Incognito...despite the fact Martin was/is soft..I wouldnt touch Incognito on this team with Ballpeens dick...he's a cancer and in the twilight of his career anyway...no thanks..what this team has absorbed lately. We dont need anymore distractions.

[hoorta]

Martin is a big pussy.

 

 

I'd take Incognito on our team.

 

1) I agree.Martin's correct response if Ritchie was "harrassing" him should have been- "Stop that shit, because the next time you try it, I'll kick you in the nuts."

 

2) Nope, those in the know describe Incognito as a "Meathead", Also, voted as "the dirtiest player in the NFL" doesn't win any points with me. Alpha males in the lockerroom? OK, sorry, No Flaming assholes- likes to sexually harrass women on golf courses too, by all accounts

[miktoxic]

no on Incognito...despite the fact Martin was/is soft..I wouldnt touch Incognito on this team with Ballpeens dick...he's a cancer and in the twilight of his career anyway...no thanks..what this team has absorbed lately. We dont need anymore distractions.

 

i wouldn't take either one.

 

one doesn't want to play cuz it hurts getting hit and the other is just a loudmouth douchebag.

[Westside Steve]

+1 Nickers and Tox and Hoorta.

WSS

[Spectralcow]

Hoorta pointed out that Richie Incognito was voted one of the dirtiest players in the league. I'm not saying that the guy is not a douchebag, but I think there's a disproportionately negative response to him. Hines Ward was voted THE dirtiest player in the league for a number of years, and a lot of people (maybe not you or too many Browns fans, but a fair portion of the general population and the sports media) act like he is great. Why isn't Hines Ward a cancer? Why weren't the general population and the media calling for his head. It's because the Richie Incognito thing had nothing to do with dirty play on the field. He called a guy some names off the field and everyone got all buttsore about it.

[jrb12711]

You know the bottom line in this whole situation is two wrongs don't make a right. Incognito is a piece of trash human being by all accounts, but by the grace of God happened to be great at football. Don't show me the guy dressed in his Sunday best in a staged interview and pretend none of it happened. The reason I don't feel bad for him in the slightest is because people like Richie make this world a shitty place to live in. There's a way to bullcrap with your friends and not be a crazy douche. I played football my whole childhood as I'm sure some of you did. I had good-natured shit talking all the time, but there was always a clear line you didn't cross.It really irks me when people defend Incognito-even if it's the 'culture' the way he acts as a human being is unacceptable. I don't care if you're in the NFL or work at the teddy bear factory.

 

With that being said, I think Martin looking back on the whole thing could have handled it differently. Again, I don't feel bad at all for Incognito being exposed for the jerk he is. However, I think this sets a bad precedent for how to handle things in the work-place. It's obvious that higher ups in the organization were not aware of the alleged bullying. Martin should have gone to these people first, not the press. I think it sets a bad precedent for the entire NFL that locker rooms are places where people get treated like crap. I'm sure most locker rooms are just like what I described earlier with good natured back and forths and the occasional thing that went too far. Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

[The Gipper]

Thank you liberalism! Will we reach a day when the NFL doesn't keep score and everyone get s a trophy?

So? You think that the NFL cannot survive unless its players I paid bounties to put hits on other players. Or that they cannot survive unless the juvenile locker room hazing is allowed to continue.

 

How about this idea: Why don't these guys that are paid millions to play this sport act like professionals. Tackle a guy because it is your job to tackle him. Treat another adult like another adult.

I may put a slam on you here (primarily out of jest) because you are a Steeler fan. But if I actually had professional dealings with you I would treat you professionally and I would expect the same of you.

I mean, if we were involved in some legal transaction I would not tell you during the course of such that your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of eldeberries.....even if she was and he did.

[gftChris]

So? You think that the NFL cannot survive unless its players I paid bounties to put hits on other players. Or that they cannot survive unless the juvenile locker room hazing is allowed to continue.

 

How about this idea: Why don't these guys that are paid millions to play this sport act like professionals. Tackle a guy because it is your job to tackle him. Treat another adult like another adult.

I may put a slam on you here (primarily out of jest) because you are a Steeler fan. But if I actually had professional dealings with you I would treat you professionally and I would expect the same of you.

I mean, if we were involved in some legal transaction I would not tell you during the course of such that your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of eldeberries.....even if she was and he did.

Way to shoe-horn a movie quote in there...

[The Cysko Kid]

The NFL is lucky martin didn't come in and shoot up the locker room . Richie Incognito is a classless dick but Martin clearly has mental problems. I'd avoid both. ad press is unneccesary for the browns

[Spectralcow]

Ugh. This is another case of people saying one thing, and the other side arguing against something else entirely.

 

Statement: "This was a huge overreaction by Martin, his camp, the media, the public, and the NFL. It was completely unnecessary, and instead of embracing that unnecessary reaction, someone should have acknowledged the ridiculousness of its intensity."

 

Reaction: "Richie Incognito IS a jerk, and this behavior is NOT preferable."

 

Lol, what? There are very few people out there who think, "What Richie Incognito did was fine, he's a model saint, and we should encourage not only him but other people to act like he has." So why are people arguing against that? Let's try this one more time:

 

Richie Incognito is a jerk. It is not ideal to have some of your players making some of your other players so uncomfortable that it has a negative effect on the team chemistry.

 

There, we've got that part handled. It's out there. So now you don't need to feel compelled to respond with "But Richie Incognito is a jerk!" We good? Okay, now...

 

What Incognito and a number of the other Dolphins did was not the worst thing in the world. It is, in my opinion, less wrong than beating your fiancée, sexually assaulting someone, dealing/doing drugs, etc. Yet, this Incognito thing has been met with more public and media outrage than any of those things have. (I agree that it is due to desensitization, but that doesn't justify it.) My suggestion, then, is that we apply a little perspective to this whole thing, and scale the outrage either down to what actually happened or the outrage about more serious behavior problems up to a proportionate level.

 

If you're saying to yourself "two wrongs don't make a right", you're clearly still not paying attention and may have a learning disability. No one (or a ridiculously small number of irrational people) is saying that what Incognito did or how he acts is right. What we're saying is, "exercise a sense of scale/perspective". There are varying levels of "wrong", and we've kind of agreed to that as a society. You cannot deny that the backlash against Incognito has been MUCH worse than the negative responses to recent drug or assault charges against NFL players (if you can, you weren't paying attention). Aren't those things worse than saying something mean to someone? Generally, our society has agreed that they are. So, following this line of thinking to its logical end, the amount and intensity of the negative response to what Incognito did has been grossly disproportionate to what he actually did, especially in comparison to more serious NFL player behaviors.

 

So before we start screaming about what an awful human being Richie Incognito is (even if he is) and how he shouldn't be welcomed on a team, in the league, etc., perhaps we should apply the same judgment to all of the players out there who have been accused of, charged with, found guilty of, or suspended for more serious behaviors. Once you have eliminated all the rapists, abusers, attackers, and drug-users from their teams and the league, let me know, and I'll be right behind you in lining up for the "anti-name calling squad".

[miktoxic]

Ugh. This is another case of people saying one thing, and the other side arguing against something else entirely.

 

Statement: "This was a huge overreaction by Martin, his camp, the media, the public, and the NFL. It was completely unnecessary, and instead of embracing that unnecessary reaction, someone should have acknowledged the ridiculousness of its intensity."

 

Reaction: "Richie Incognito IS a jerk, and this behavior is NOT preferable."

 

Lol, what? There are very few people out there who think, "What Richie Incognito did was fine, he's a model saint, and we should encourage not only him but other people to act like he has." So why are people arguing against that? Let's try this one more time:

 

Richie Incognito is a jerk. It is not ideal to have some of your players making some of your other players so uncomfortable that it has a negative effect on the team chemistry.

 

There, we've got that part handled. It's out there. So now you don't need to feel compelled to respond with "But Richie Incognito is a jerk!" We good? Okay, now...

 

What Incognito and a number of the other Dolphins did was not the worst thing in the world. It is, in my opinion, less wrong than beating your fiancée, sexually assaulting someone, dealing/doing drugs, etc. Yet, this Incognito thing has been met with more public and media outrage than any of those things have. (I agree that it is due to desensitization, but that doesn't justify it.) My suggestion, then, is that we apply a little perspective to this whole thing, and scale the outrage either down to what actually happened or the outrage about more serious behavior problems up to a proportionate level.

 

If you're saying to yourself "two wrongs don't make a right", you're clearly still not paying attention and may have a learning disability. No one (or a ridiculously small number of irrational people) is saying that what Incognito did or how he acts is right. What we're saying is, "exercise a sense of scale/perspective". There are varying levels of "wrong", and we've kind of agreed to that as a society. You cannot deny that the backlash against Incognito has been MUCH worse than the negative responses to recent drug or assault charges against NFL players (if you can, you weren't paying attention). Aren't those things worse than saying something mean to someone? Generally, our society has agreed that they are. So, following this line of thinking to its logical end, the amount and intensity of the negative response to what Incognito did has been grossly disproportionate to what he actually did, especially in comparison to more serious NFL player behaviors.

 

So before we start screaming about what an awful human being Richie Incognito is (even if he is) and how he shouldn't be welcomed on a team, in the league, etc., perhaps we should apply the same judgment to all of the players out there who have been accused of, charged with, found guilty of, or suspended for more serious behaviors. Once you have eliminated all the rapists, abusers, attackers, and drug-users from their teams and the league, let me know, and I'll be right behind you in lining up for the "anti-name calling squad".

 

i think everyone here on the board understands what type of environment an NFL (HS or college) locker room can be like.

 

i persay don't blame incognito for doing what he was told to do, but as a human being you can always tell when you are imposing your will upon someone else to their disregard. a bully is a bully is a bully.

 

a lot of people get shot for that shit nowadays. i sure as hell wouldn't teach me kids to act in that way. you might get columbined.