Tour2ma Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Shelton is elite in the fact that, for this position, he has a very complete skill set. However the one that interests the Browns the most ( stopping the interior run) can be done just as well by Carl Davis. At this point I know he'll be called a "reach" but mark my words, after the combine you're going to hear his name tossed in for 1st round consideration. However, while you and draft scouts put Grayson as the 4th QB and 100ish pick, this is a QB starved NFL and he's going to go much higher based on that alone. As for Orchard, he's the other name you'll hear worthy of that fringe 1st round talk. I'd love to get him at 43. In a perfect world we could get Shelton at 12, Clemmjngs at 19, Orchard at 43 and Grayson in the 3rd. But I know that just Won't happen. As for Hull and O'Leary. I think Nick would again, compliment the current skill set of our TE's and be the more athletic threat. He is a bit under rated IMHO. Hull could be had in the 5th, you're pretty spot on. I just think the kid might have some Borland type potential and id hate to miss out on that. Agree that some positions are elevated. QB and OT most of all... Just feeding back some observations. But nothing wrong with reaching if the talent is there. Agree on Hull... I see the Borland in him as well. Funny you mention Clemmings as I just watched TJ's film yesterday afternoon. It was all at RT. Good prospect with fledgling mechanics and decent fluidity. Some questions around level of competition. Lost his "game" against Miami after a Q2 bull rush caught him off-balance and put him on the ground, so his head is a question. I see a potential RT upgrade, but not sure about a future LT, and IMO that makes him expensive in Round 1, which is where he likely goes. Where are you finding your footage? I'm using http://draftbreakdown.com/players/ , but could use a couple free alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Have you look at any of these yourself? Because the one glaring problem I see is you being critical of Davis pursuit. I've seen him track down a few stretch plays where he was cut and it sure doesn't make me question his work ethic. Tiam *************************************************** Dang, dude, I apologize for disagreeing. But below is an example of what I was saying about Davis. It's just my stupid opinion, dangit. But for me, I'm looking for guys who love the game, and are intense. I'm far more liking Malcolm Brown. He has serious intensity - he LOVES the game. When there are reports of a lack of intensity and pursuit, the highlights showing him pursuing don't impress me as much. about Carl Davis http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/carl-davis?id=2552280 WEAKNESSES Plays heavy-legged. Has smaller "radius of impact" than scouts are looking for in a high draft pick. Lacked production as pass rusher over last two seasons. Pursuit can be lazy and uninspired. As he fatigues, play quality falls way off. Rarely wins immediately. An "eventual" player rather than sudden. NFL COMPARISON C.J. Mosley (Lions) BOTTOM LINE Davis has the height, weight and length of a first-rounder, but his draft value will be hindered by his lack of productivity as a pass rusher. If Davis can get his overall production to match his talent and traits, he'll have a long NFL career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 About Orchard.... I'm not saying these two guys aren't very talented. But again, I'm looking for guys who LOVE the game, are physical, and go all out on every play. Serious intensity - it's the NFL. It doesn't mean they won't be intense in the NFL... but I wonder, and superfically, admitted, I don't see what I'm looking for. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/nate-orchard?id=2552299 WEAKNESSES Not much of a factor against the run. Will get engulfed at the point of attack. Scouts say he lacks "lead-dog aggressiveness." Not consistent enough as edge setter and rarely looks to lay a shoulder into fullbacks and tight ends coming across to block him. Wins with foot quickness and effort over skill and counter moves. Has a mechanical spin move. Short strider who doesn't gain as much ground around the edge as expected. A little tight in hips and rounds the corner rather than turns it. Only one year of big production. SOURCES TELL US "When I'm on the road, I hear other scouts tell me they think he's tough enough but his tape doesn't show it. He's a finesse player with some a high ceiling as a pass rusher, but he could easily bust out." -- NFC director of college scouting NFL COMPARISON Trent Cole BOTTOM LINE Teams will either be wary of Orchard's single season of sack dominance or they will view it as an indicator of growth and potential stardom. Orchard will be below average against the run, but his draft grade and paycheck will be tied to his athleticism and pass-rush talent. If he can develop counter moves, he has big potential. If not, he might be nothing more than a middling, situational pass rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/24905342/nfl-draft-nate-orchard-utah-power-past-colorado-state Here's some great stuff about Orchard. I wonder - is he intense only to get drafted? Does he LOVE the game? Or, he wants to make big bucks, and will go through the motions in the pros? Or the switch turns on when the player gets into the bigtime? Wouldn't draft him unless I had the answers that I wanted, but I'm no scout or coach. I don't know diddley... ! ***************************** "On most snaps, Sambrailo's length and lateral agility was enough to contain Orchard, who entered the game as the FBS-leader with an average of 1.46 sacks per game. As he did all season, Orchard made his living on third down, alternately using speed to challenge the big tackle's range or countering back inside. Unlike the five edge rushers that rank ahead of him on NFLDraftScout.com's board, the 6-foot-4, 255 pound Orchard does not possess an electric first-step. By varying his rush, however, he leaves tackles off balance and forced to rely on their hands to grasp hold of his jersey. Orchard mitigates this with strong, active hands of his own, which he uses well slap away their reach and dance his way into the backfield. Orchard's refined hand technique and agility were on display in the final minutes of the first quarter with the Utes leading 21-7. With the Rams facing 3rd and 7 from the Utah 24, Orchard got a terrific jump off the ball and chopped through Sambrailo's effort to latch on. Orchard wasn't able to get to CSU quarterback Garrett Grayson for the sack but he did deflect the ball as it left the quarterback's hand, forcing an incompletion. Most of Orchard's plays came from his customary right defensive end position. With the Rams marching down the field on their first drive of the third quarter, however, the Utes moved Orchard to the left side. While the angle Orchard took to the quarterback changed, the result did not. Rather than attempt to beat Colorado State upfield on a traditional rush, Orchard looped inside, driving through the right guard to sack Grayson and force a fumble. Though the Rams recovered, CSU kicker Jared Roberts missed a 44-yard field goal. The sack gave Orchard 18.5 for the year, overtaking Washington's Hau'oli Kikaha for tops in the country. It was his third forced fumble of the year." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 BTW, I keep reading about all these players, trying to fix my stupid mock draft. The only two sure things I have so far, is the Browns drafting Justin Manton, the kicker, and drafting a #1 wr in the first round. I don't see any immediate step up their first year #1's falling out of the first round, this year. Outside of that, my stupid mock draft has me all confused... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 You aren't posting your opinion - you're posting links other people's opinions. Gorilla, not Guerrilla... Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Funny you mention Clemmings as I just watched TJ's film yesterday afternoon. It was all at RT. Good prospect with fledgling mechanics and decent fluidity. Some questions around level of competition. Lost his "game" against Miami after a Q2 bull rush caught him off-balance and put him on the ground, so his head is a question. I see a potential RT upgrade, but not sure about a future LT, and IMO that makes him expensive in Round 1, which is where he likely goes. Where are you finding your footage? I'm using http://draftbreakdown.com/players/ , but could use a couple free alternatives. What time I got to watch TJ I liked some things I saw. My eye isn't as sharp as yours In relation to mechanics, but the kid didn't the the lateral movement issues and kick step problems I saw with Schreff. As for footage - a lot of players I've simply found on YouTube. DraftJedi has multiple videos on prospects. If I can't find it there, school and conference websites or if I'm really not finding anything I'll hit up frostwire and seed a full game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Those were examples of what I've been reading, which is a LOT of reading. and my opinions are based on everything I've read. Otherwise, you see some great highlights, and great stats, and you end up drafting a "mad dog in a meat market". I hate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Those were examples of what I've been reading, which is a LOT of reading. and my opinions are based on everything I've read. Otherwise, you see some great highlights, and great stats, and you end up drafting a "mad dog in a meat market". I hate that. So a lot of reading of others opinions and if they influence you enough to agree with them, you assimilate those opinions as your own. Ok then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Well, I'm not an arrogant person where I see video, and "know" that a player will be a great player in the NFL. That's how Phil Savage and Shottenheimer did it. A consensus of opinions by those who have videos of games - yeah, I consider that as part of my stupid opinions on the draft. I still maintain the right to disagree with you. I've watched video... but again, highlight films don't impress me when "expert" scout opinions of what they see otherwise tells a different story. You apparently would have drafted Braylon Edwards, Josh Gordon, and Manziel based on your "expert" viewing of their college videos. I wouldn't have. I'll stick to my way of being wrong, you stick to yours, see you after the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 yep....we can all watch tape and see how they play...but none of us have the inside scoop on their mental makeup, will to win, intelligence etc....thats a total crap shoot.... so, just being fans with only tape and printed material to form our opinions, we almost HAVE to rely on the written word for some of those intangibles that aren't visible or apparent on tape..... In the end, it's 50/50 on every player in the draft.....you like him or you dont...and...he'll be good or he wont.......the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Well, I'm not an arrogant person where I see video, and "know" that a player will be a great player in the NFL. That's how Phil Savage and Shottenheimer did it. A consensus of opinions by those who have videos of games - yeah, I consider that as part of my stupid opinions on the draft. I still maintain the right to disagree with you. I've watched video... but again, highlight films don't impress me when "expert" scout opinions of what they see otherwise tells a different story. You apparently would have drafted Braylon Edwards, Josh Gordon, and Manziel based on your "expert" viewing of their college videos. I wouldn't have. I'll stick to my way of being wrong, you stick to yours, see you after the draft. I don't "know" anything. Even the most wise do not see to all ends. However after the remarkable busts selected by not only the Browns, but others teams as well in the last 10 years - It was then I realized that I have a pretty good eye for talent. Also, the air of arrogance you're feeling so palpable, is that I've done my homework to watch these people to be able to give an informed opinion on their abilities. I don't rely on word of mouth or what you see on ESPN which is pure nonsense. You have EVERY right to disagree with me, but I don't appreciate you disagreeing with me by using the opinion of another individual as the basis for your argument. That's petty to me. To address your last points about players. I bitched about Braylon, Kellen 'Solja Boy' Winslow (honestly only because of his health concerns, he was a premium receiving talent) Quinn, Maiava in the 2nd round, Mohammed Massaquai,(spell check) TJ Ward in the 2nd round, Montario Hardesty (again, healthy reasons AND trading up to get him) Brandon Weeden, and Manziel. Of those, I have proof of posts from my time on others forums of my opinion on said players well before the draft and a video of me cursing out half of the bar last year when we took Manziel. Aside from being wrong about Ward, the only other time I was glaringly wrong was about Haden when I said I felt he was a bit undersized and instead wanted Earl Thomas. Technically I wouldn't have been wrong as we would have either way had a top 2 player at their position if we had choosen Earl - but I was slightly off in my miscalculation of Joe. To this day, couldn't be happier about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Ask anybody that remembers... I was a huge Joe Thomas hawk, and I wasn't alone about Joe Haden being THE pick. And all my other picks were wrong. Just let people disagree with you, and stop being offended about it. I ain't no scout, you are maybe, jimmy crack corn and I don't care. I agree to disagree with you on two players. Wait, you watched video of Haden.. and you were WRONG about him? LIS (that's a new acronym - "Laughing in Silence" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 Ask anybody that remembers... I was a huge Joe Thomas hawk, and I wasn't alone about Joe Haden being THE pick. And all my other picks were wrong. Just let people disagree with you, and stop being offended about it. I ain't no scout, you are maybe, jimmy crack corn and I don't care. I agree to disagree with you on two players. Wait, you watched video of Haden.. and you were WRONG about him? LIS (that's a new acronym - "Laughing in Silence" I actually hummed this as I read it allowed and it had me laughing pretty hard. And thank you for telling me what the acronym meant, I have no idea what half of you kids these days are saying when I see things like that in type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 So a lot of reading of others opinions and if they influence you enough to agree with them, you assimilate those opinions as your own. Ok then. I think that factoring in the opinions of "experts" is entirely within the scope of most of us ranking players. There are very few of us qualified to watch film and make that assessment without outside influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 And thank you for telling me what the acronym meant, I have no idea what half of you kids these days are saying when I see things like that in type. Tiam ******************************** Well, A. I had to tell you what it means, because I just made it up. B. Thanks for the lefthanded compliment, but chances are, I am older than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Nothing wrong with reading others' opinions. When common themes emerge on a given player the odds are good that there's something to them. That's a lot different than reading one and hanging your hat on it. None of us have the time to invest in independent evaluation of over 2000 players. I use DraftScout to set the order I watch prospects in a given position. I spend more time on the O-line cause I want to. And when I spend time I like time-edited, but otherwise unvarnished, game tape. I think it would be well worth revisiting Draft Scouts after free agency, combine and individual college pro days are completed. Think I will make a hard copy now and compare the changes with those revisions. Right now I'm leaning towards Peat or Collins followed by best available ILB. A decent DT should still be there 2nd round unless there is a real standout WR we just can't pass on. All depends on free agency so all are wild guesses for now. Hard copy? What's that? Consider Lightshot... https://app.prntscr.com/en/index.html DraftScout's movers are noted by arrows next to names... Already has been some movement at some positions, e.g., McKinney (ILB) started as a clear #1, but is now the #3 ILB and a 2nd rounder. AS of now DS rates no ILB's as first-round worthy. I think the top ILB prospects this year will end up being OLB converts. But you are correct, the Combine will shake up the rankings considerably. Peat and Collins look far from interchangeable to my eye. Collins is simply not fluid. Peat on the other hand is "like buttah". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Dawson out of TCU. Kid is a damn good football player but has character issues. If you can snag him mid to late round, it would be tempting. Then make sure he ends up under the wing of Dansby, Whitner and Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Dawson out of TCU. Kid is a damn good football player but has character issues. If you can snag him mid to late round, it would be tempting. Then make sure he ends up under the wing of Dansby, Whitner and Craig. Dawson just stared showing up as a late 1st round OLB/ILB choice in the First-Pick sim. Two small DEs that may stand up as OLBs look interesting: Washington's Hauoli Kikaha and Missou's Markus Golden. I just started looking at Golden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 When I hear "character issues" I think: 2nd chance, I'm maybe okay....maybe giving them a second chance.... 3rd/4th...drop like a hot rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Here is my first crack at a fanspeak mock draft. I would be pretty happy with this. 12: R1P12 DT DANNY SHELTON WASHINGTON 19: R1P19 OLB VIC BEASLEY CLEMSON 43: R2P11 OT JEREMIAH POUTASI UTAH 77: R3P13 WR DEVIN SMITH OHIO STATE 108: R4P12 TE TYLER KROFT RUTGERS 112: R4P16 G JOSUE MATIAS FLORIDA STATE 139: R5P11 WR VINCE MAYLE WASHINGTON STATE 173: R6P13 FB JALSTON FOWLER ALABAMA 186: R6P26 QB SEAN MANNION OREGON STATE 204: R7P12 C MAX GARCIA FLORIDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Unless he fires up a spliff and shoots a puppy during the combine - not a chance Devin drops to the 3rd round. It'd sure be nice though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Unless he fires up a spliff and shoots a puppy during the combine - not a chance Devin drops to the 3rd round. It'd sure be nice though. Yep, that's Fanspeak for ya, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFBF Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Mel Kipper Mock 2.0 : #12 - Devante Parker, WR, Louisville #19 - Eddie Goldman, DT, Florida State http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2015/2/11/8018495/2015-nfl-mock-draft-mel-kiper-2-0-espn-eagles-marcus-mariota-peters Winston @ #1, Mariota @ #6 . . . http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2015/2/11/8018495/2015-nfl-mock-draft-mel-kiper-2-0-espn-eagles-marcus-mariota-peters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFBF Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Dear god, no. First off, not a chance we invest a pick that high in OT and hopefully our scouts see some of the things brought to light on this board about Schreff. As for Coates? At 19 I'd rather just hold off and go WR in the 2nd round. I don't see him being worth a high 1st rounder. I don't have a major problem @ 19 of taking OL, but @ 12 I'm really thinking DL. That's as of now, without Combine & FA info, plus assuming we still have those picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I don't have a major problem @ 19 of taking OL, but @ 12 I'm really thinking DL. That's as of now, without Combine & FA info, plus assuming we still have those picks. At this point, I have zero issues with our first 2 picks being defense. I was waiting for PFF to release their Pass Rush Efficiency stats this year. I expected the Browns to do poorly, but they ranked dead last without the blitz. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/02/11/sig-stats-team-blitzing/ That's unacceptable. Especially in a division that has two Olines on the rise in Baltimore and Pittsburgh. We need to not only get this defensive interior right against the run, but we need more firepower in getting after the QB. In a league now dominated by officials that wont let you breathe on a receiver, the only way to stop or slow the passing game is getting to the QB. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 In a draft that is very deep in olinemen, especially tackles, why draft one in the first round? And I'm always interested in oline high... I'm fine with whoever they draft, but I think if a team is looking for a legit #1 wr to step in... you really need to take one in the first round, because a lot of other teams are also looking for top flight wr's, and the #1 wr depth in this draft isn't all that deep. If there's one in the second round, great, that's just what I think. Just seems like the Browns are so close to really getting a fine roster intact, the needs are short, and the upgrading isn't as easy as in the past. That's a huge upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren15 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 12: R1P12 WR AMARI COOPER ALABAMA 19: R1P19 OLB VIC BEASLEY CLEMSON 43: R2P11 OT T.J. CLEMMINGS PITTSBURGH 77: R3P13 TE DEVIN FUNCHESS MICHIGAN 108: R4P12 QB GARRETT GRAYSON COLORADO STATE 112: R4P16 DE ANTHONY CHICKILLO MIAMI 139: R5P11 ILB TAIWAN JONES MICHIGAN STATE 173: R6P13 DT MARCUS HARDISON ARIZONA STATE 186: R6P26 WR ANTWAN GOODLEY BAYLOR 204: R7P12 DT CHUCKY HUNTER TCU My first attempt this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Cal you might draft one in the first round, offensive tackle, if it meant another Joe Thomas on the other side. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Cal you might draft one in the first round, offensive tackle, if it meant another Joe Thomas on the other side. WSS I would love to know who the other Joe Thomas is in this draft. Peat is damn good, but JT, he is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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