fail for cardale

[Zombo]

I would venture to say it is impossible for me to look silly in any conversation with you. Unless I looked silly for even engaging a goober like you in the first place.

 

 

 

 

Ya, OK, first off the article mentions nothing about Haslem "meddling".

 

Farmer has admitted drafting Johnny was his choice and he sticks by it.

 

The article actually makes us look pretty "normal", which I will take over past brass any time.

 

 

 

 

Well ...they ARE on the same page. By all accounts. So ... not an issue.

 

Ya, we can still smell your grease fire when the wind blows southwesterly across the lake ... but, sorry Farmer and Pettine are working together terrifically. They just got rid of the sniveling OC that didn't fit and replaced him with an up-and-comer that Pettine worked with in NY. That hire alone shows they are still working together. If Farmer brought in a big splashy name that would usurp power from Pettine then maybe you could make an argument. But really you have nothing. Not a thing. Nothing to see here but a young organization finding its way.

 

 

A ...."goober"?

That's below the belt.

Man, I've been called a lot of things, but I can't remember ever being called a goober..

My heart hurts.

 

Seriously, you are clearly delusional..

Your problem isn't Farmer, and your problem isn't Pettine.

Your problem is the guy at the other end of the cell phone dumb ass..

 

P.S.

I still love ya....

 

A. That's gay. Next your smiley will be winking at me.

 

B. If you're going to have an A, you have to have a B ... Dumbass.

 

C. You are still hung up on the MK gossipfest. The cellphone thing has been explained, had nothing to do with Haslem. "Staffers". Again .. this organization is not yet one year old, we're just a young organization growing up, new GM, new coach, all new front office, owner himself only been here a couple years. As Aaron would say ... Relax

 

We've got two first round picks, 10 draft picks, tons of cap space, and for the first time in a long, long time ... continuity.

 

Better check on your own house, I hear Rex was found this morning in the shoe closet of your Asian woman owner.

 

Zombo

[The Gipper]

A ...."goober"?
That's below the belt.
Man, I've been called a lot of things, but I can't remember ever being called a goober..
My heart hurts.

 

Yea, I think Z perhaps got it wrong.....I think you are more of a Gomer than a Goober. Gomer was always more locquasious than Goober.

..

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Who has the advantage? The defense? I would reconsider that laughable thought.

I think you know how that list of first round overall, can't miss QBS always have a habit of breaking your heart, right?

 

You are using fucking high school as a tape example? Seriously?

Dude... I can't even respond to that..

Let's be real here, nobody gets to the big time college level without dominating the little boys around him that hardly have a hair on their balls. Stop thinking past, and think about what an NFL coach and professional defensive mind can wreck his strengths. I'm not saying he will fail, but never consider college success translates over to the NFL.

 

I hope the kid succeeds at the highest level. He totally blew my mind in the championship game, but never forget the lure of Vince Young.

We will know more about him next year.

I would say the team that has played all season long together has the advantage over a third-string quarterback, yes. Your bias doesn't allow you to consider otherwise, which is fine...but don't try to pass it off as irrefutable fact.

 

Your claim was there was no tape on Cardale. I said you'd be stupid to think that Oregon coaches weren't watching any tape available, which happens to be high school tape. You don't film study individual players to see how they run plays, you film study individual players to find tells and habits. Unless a coach individually targets those tells and those habits, they'll be there regardless of the level of play. Player study and game study are two different animals, I hope you know that.

 

The problem with your assumption is that you think I automatically assume he'll find success because he won in college. That's not the case. I think he'll find success because, outside of Jameis Winston, Cardale Jones has the most pro-compatible skill set in the NCAA. The glaring flaws in his game lie in his inexperience. He's not a gimmick quarterback who relies on an up-tempo system and a clear talent and speed differential between his team and his opponents. He wasn't overwhelmed with the speed or the stage. Going back to the National Championship, Cardale could have had a nearly flawless performance if not for a handful of clear rookie mistakes.

 

The problem with your line of reasoning is the same problem with nearly everyone's reasoning. Vince Young has just as much to do with Cardale Jones as Steve Young. Comparing players is well and good in conversation, but you don't scout the comparison, you scout the player.

[hoorta]

I want Nick Foles..

 

So do I, but how much will he cost?

[Mudfly]

here's a link to a good write up - assessment of him.....

 

http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/01/can_nick_foles_be_the_eagles_quarterback_of_the_fu.html

[hoorta]

Why would people think it is a big deal that the Browns took like two extra days to hire an OC.

It was NOT a case of all the OCs that they supposedly wanted were gone....snatched up by other teams. It was a case of them not wanting those guys.

If they were hot for Trestman, they would have hired Trestman. If they were hot for Gailey they would have hired Gailey. If they were hot for Cavanaugh they would have hired Cavanaugh. They were, apparently, hot for D-Flip......and they got him, and that is all that matters. I mean, really, there was only one other person they may have been hot for:

 

 

Since it's the silly season, Eddie has some young competition- not bad for being 15 years old.

 

[hoorta]

here's a link to a good write up - assessment of him.....

 

http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/01/can_nick_foles_be_the_eagles_quarterback_of_the_fu.html

 

Makes it sound like he's a bigger, and slightly less mobile edition of Brian Hoyer.

 

That's Hoyers glaring weakness- deep ball accuracy.

[Mudfly]

 

Makes it sound like he's a bigger, and slightly less mobile edition of Brian Hoyer.

 

That's Hoyers glaring weakness- deep ball accuracy.

Id say you're right....he looks a lot like Hoyer.....though maybe similar accuracy issues, Id give Foles an edge in arm strength.......

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi_GiHilQrE#t=251

[andeftw]

I'd spend this year's draft on line and d and take cardale next year. Dude is huge, he can throw he can run he can tackle. I'd take him over any of those guys at this point

 

That's gonna be important when he no longer has the best running back in the country by his side or the fastest receiver on the field. Might as well be able to stop pick-sixes from happening.

[andeftw]

 

So do I, but how much will he cost?

 

As much as it takes for the Eagles to draft Mariota without giving up anything more than their first round pick.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

I would say the team that has played all season long together has the advantage over a third-string quarterback, yes. Your bias doesn't allow you to consider otherwise, which is fine...but don't try to pass it off as irrefutable fact.

 

Your claim was there was no tape on Cardale. I said you'd be stupid to think that Oregon coaches weren't watching any tape available, which happens to be high school tape. You don't film study individual players to see how they run plays, you film study individual players to find tells and habits. Unless a coach individually targets those tells and those habits, they'll be there regardless of the level of play. Player study and game study are two different animals, I hope you know that.

 

The problem with your assumption is that you think I automatically assume he'll find success because he won in college. That's not the case. I think he'll find success because, outside of Jameis Winston, Cardale Jones has the most pro-compatible skill set in the NCAA. The glaring flaws in his game lie in his inexperience. He's not a gimmick quarterback who relies on an up-tempo system and a clear talent and speed differential between his team and his opponents. He wasn't overwhelmed with the speed or the stage. Going back to the National Championship, Cardale could have had a nearly flawless performance if not for a handful of clear rookie mistakes.

 

The problem with your line of reasoning is the same problem with nearly everyone's reasoning. Vince Young has just as much to do with Cardale Jones as Steve Young. Comparing players is well and good in conversation, but you don't scout the comparison, you scout the player.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------------

 

 

 

 

Your opinion was written well, and you may be right.

There is a lot to agree with your post. he definitely shined with almost every component of the game, and he seems NFL ready.

I'm just a little timid when it comes to anointing QBs who light up the big college game like VY.. He was drafted 2? and crashed. Who saw that coming.. That is my only comparative reason to bring up VY.

The one single thing that Cardale possesses is something that you can't teach, accuracy.

I hope it translates over to the NFL.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say he's NFL ready by any means, but I do think he's got the potential to be.

 

From a football standpoint, it would have been more beneficial for him to declare now and work with an NFL coaching staff for 2 years. However, I can certainly understand his desire to graduate, if indeed that is actually the case.

 

If this decision was money driven, he made a monumental mistake. Taking 3rd round money for two years and learning could have possibly set him up for a large, franchise QB-level contract by the time he turned 24.

 

 

Aside: can anyone find out Cardale's actual DOB? It's not listed anywhere that I can find.

[Suomi]

Just...no.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Just...no.

 

Go on.

[The Cysko Kid]

 

That's gonna be important when he no longer has the best running back in the country by his side or the fastest receiver on the field. Might as well be able to stop pick-sixes from happening.

Have you seen the video of him hitting some dude? Kid is a monster.

[The Cysko Kid]

Just...no.

Just no what? I'd take cardale jones in a second and not lose an ounce of sleep over it. You gonna tell me you think he's a less worthy pick than oh...say...

 

Johnny manziel

Brandon Weeden

Colt McCoy or

Brady Quinn?

[RoyceRolls]

I'd feel a lot better about this tactic if the OP wasn't one of JFF's biggest supporters until he played 6 quarters of football...

[Adoug319]

http://media.cleveland.com/sports_impact/photo/jimmy-haslam-and-cardale-jones-7f92e3f29ede340e.jpg

[andeftw]

Have you seen the video of him hitting some dude? Kid is a monster.

 

My point exactly. With all the picks he will throw, he might as well hit hard enough to make defensive players fumble so the team can get the ball back!

[gftChris]

Like the colts did?

[The Cysko Kid]

I'd feel a lot better about this tactic if the OP wasn't one of JFF's biggest supporters until he played 6 quarters of football...

Jeez how dare I want the browns to explore every available Avenue to play well?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

My point exactly. With all the picks he will throw, he might as well hit hard enough to make defensive players fumble so the team can get the ball back!

Yeah, all 2% of his passes.

 

Nice try, fucktard.

[RoyceRolls]

Jeez how dare I want the browns to explore every available Avenue to play well?

Lol, just bustin your chops for the epic 180, no biggie.

[andeftw]

Yeah, all 2% of his passes.

 

Nice try, fucktard.

 

Since you want to bring up stats, Geno Smith threw picks in 1.4% of his pass attempts during his three seasons as a starter in college. He threw 31 picks in 30 games in his first two NFL seasons.

Jones threw picks on 2.7% of his attempts in a much smaller sample. He won't have the best running back in the country rushing for 230 yards and 3 TDs a game once he turns pro. It's fair to assume his interception total will increase once he is forced to throw the ball more against better defensive players and coaches.

Of course we don't have to be objective about this. It seems like you prefer resorting to name calling like a twelve year old surfing the internet for the first time...

[tiamat63]

 

Since you want to bring up stats, Geno Smith threw picks in 1.4% of his pass attempts during his three seasons as a starter in college. He threw 31 picks in 30 games in his first two NFL seasons.

Jones threw picks on 2.7% of his attempts in a much smaller sample. He won't have the best running back in the country rushing for 230 yards and 3 TDs a game once he turns pro. It's fair to assume his interception total will increase once he is forced to throw the ball more against better defensive players and coaches.

Of course we don't have to be objective about this. It seems like you prefer resorting to name calling like a twelve year old surfing the internet for the first time...

The difference being that the WVU offense was a much more horizontal passing game with built in screens, quick outs and slants.

 

Compare to the OSU passing game that's a more downfield, vertical threat. Higher risk of picks when you travel further down the field.

[andeftw]

The difference being that the WVU offense was a much more horizontal passing game with built in screens, quick outs and slants.

 

Compare to the OSU passing game that's a more downfield, vertical threat. Higher risk of picks when you travel further down the field.

 

That's true, but there's other things to take into account as well, like teams playing with extra men in the box to stop Ezekiel Elliot and giving Jones more one to one match-ups down the field. Jones threw twice as many picks on a per attempt basis, that seems to account for the more vertical passing game.

If you extend his picks/attempt % to 500 attempts, which is about the NFL average over 16 games, that's 13 picks. Add the fact that he's transitioning to the pros and facing better defenses, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to expect him to throw 13-16 picks over an entire season.

 

I get that people would love to have a Cleveland guy playing QB for the Browns, I just don't see all the hype. There's a reason he was the third string quarterback heading into the season. JT Barrett will be the starting quarterback at OSU come August and people will be forgetting about the guy until he declares for the draft or transfers elsewhere.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Since you want to bring up stats, Geno Smith threw picks in 1.4% of his pass attempts during his three seasons as a starter in college. He threw 31 picks in 30 games in his first two NFL seasons.

Jones threw picks on 2.7% of his attempts in a much smaller sample. He won't have the best running back in the country rushing for 230 yards and 3 TDs a game once he turns pro. It's fair to assume his interception total will increase once he is forced to throw the ball more against better defensive players and coaches.

Of course we don't have to be objective about this. It seems like you prefer resorting to name calling like a twelve year old surfing the internet for the first time...

Right, and the quality of teams teams Geno and Cardale faced were equal, right? I forgot that West Virginia's schedule during those three years was just a revolving schedule of Alabama, Wisconsin and Oregon and that they were competing for a National Championship every year.

 

Cardale didn't have the liberty of playing teams like Liberty, ECU, Colorado, Syracuse, Marshall, UConn, Coastal Carolina, UNLV and Norfolk State.

 

I'd take a small sample size of tremendous success against three of the best 6 teams in the nation over 3 years against garbage Big East and FCS teams. But then again, that's just me.

 

You were actually on to something with that whole comparison thing. It's always been best practice among scouts and analysts to compare players from different programs, offensive philosophies and with completely different skill sets. That's how you get the best scouting profile, actually.

 

So here's some more:

 

Peyton Manning - 2.3%

Tom Brady - 2.6%

Brett Favre - 2.9%

Dan Marino - 5.7%

Ben Roethlisberger - 2.6%

John Elway - 3.1%

 

Tim Tebow - 1.6%

Graham Harrell -1.6%

 

 

Clearly, Cardale is doomed for failure since he's got a 2.6% interception percentage coming off the bench in three postseason games. If only he could drop that percentage down to the mid 1's. As we all know, the only way to be a successful quarterback in the NFL is to leave college with an interception percentage lower than 2%.

 

(That's the thing about stats - you can use them to fit any argument. And I'm just better at it than you.)

 

 

I know it's silly to think that Cardale will have a runningback of Ezekiel Elliot's caliber once he hits the pros. There's very few runningbacks of that talent level at the professional level of football. We all know that the most talented runningbacks move to Canada and become librarians once their college days are over.

 

Cardale is going to have a wake up call. Soon he'll be entering a league where teams rarely have solid runningbacks, the running game is rarely ever used, and they throw the ball 50 times per game. I hope he's ready for that.

 

 

I'm sorry, we're you saying something?

[andeftw]

Right, and the quality of teams teams Geno and Cardale faced were equal, right? I forgot that West Virginia's schedule during those three years was just a revolving schedule of Alabama, Wisconsin and Oregon and that they were competing for a National Championship every year.

 

Cardale didn't have the liberty of playing teams like Liberty, ECU, Colorado, Syracuse, Marshall, UConn, Coastal Carolina, UNLV and Norfolk State.

 

I'd take a small sample size of tremendous success against three of the best 6 teams in the nation over 3 years against garbage Big East and FCS teams. But then again, that's just me.

 

You were actually on to something with that whole comparison thing. It's always been best practice among scouts and analysts to compare players from different programs, offensive philosophies and with completely different skill sets. That's how you get the best scouting profile, actually.

 

So here's some more:

 

Peyton Manning - 2.3%

Tom Brady - 2.6%

Brett Favre - 2.9%

Dan Marino - 5.7%

Ben Roethlisberger - 2.6%

John Elway - 3.1%

 

Tim Tebow - 1.6%

Graham Harrell -1.6%

 

 

Clearly, Cardale is doomed for failure since he's got a 2.6% interception percentage coming off the bench in three postseason games. If only he could drop that percentage down to the mid 1's. As we all know, the only way to be a successful quarterback in the NFL is to leave college with an interception percentage lower than 2%.

 

(That's the thing about stats - you can use them to fit any argument. And I'm just better at it than you.)

 

 

I know it's silly to think that Cardale will have a runningback of Ezekiel Elliot's caliber once he hits the pros. There's very few runningbacks of that talent level at the professional level of football. We all know that the most talented runningbacks move to Canada and become librarians once their college days are over.

 

Cardale is going to have a wake up call. Soon he'll be entering a league where teams rarely have solid runningbacks, the running game is rarely ever used, and they throw the ball 50 times per game. I hope he's ready for that.

 

 

I'm sorry, we're you saying something?

 

Hard to say you're better than at using stats since you seem to be ignoring my argument completely.

 

First off, interceptions have nothing to do with success, Eli Manning throws a bunch of them and he's got two rings. Secondly, I brought up Geno Smith because he had a lower interception % than Cardale and tougher transition to the NFL considering the teams he faced. Smith's interception total tripled from WV to his first two seasons with the Jets. I'm not saying that will happen to Cardale, but it's fairly reasonable to expect it to at least stay the same in his first few seasons. Extend that to 500 pass attempts per season, which is about the NFL average, and you get 13 picks. That's 31 pass attempts per game, not 50.

 

Ezekiel Elliot is the best running back in college football and he's far better than the competition he's facing on defense, even against some of the best teams in the country. Is he better than all of the running backs in the NFL? Absolutely not. However, there isn't a running back in the NFL who is as good as Elliot relative to the competition he faces. Also, when you consider there are teams starting Boom Herron or Toby Gerhart at running back, it's safe to say losing Elliot is a downgrade in some situations.

 

If you recall, you're the one who called me a fucktard. If you took a look at a couple of my posts, you'd see I'm a Packers fan first and foremost. I'm used to seeing Rodgers play and the guy has the lowest interception percentage in NFL history. Forgive me for thinking that going from 6 picks a year to 13 qualifies as "all those picks". Perhaps before insulting me you could have, at the very least, considered that it was a tongue-in-cheek comment...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Hard to say you're better than at using stats since you seem to be ignoring my argument completely.

 

First off, interceptions have nothing to do with success, Eli Manning throws a bunch of them and he's got two rings. Secondly, I brought up Geno Smith because he had a lower interception % than Cardale and tougher transition to the NFL considering the teams he faced. Smith's interception total tripled from WV to his first two seasons with the Jets. I'm not saying that will happen to Cardale, but it's fairly reasonable to expect it to at least stay the same in his first few seasons. Extend that to 500 pass attempts per season, which is about the NFL average, and you get 13 picks. That's 31 pass attempts per game, not 50.

 

Ezekiel Elliot is the best running back in college football and he's far better than the competition he's facing on defense, even against some of the best teams in the country. Is he better than all of the running backs in the NFL? Absolutely not. However, there isn't a running back in the NFL who is as good as Elliot relative to the competition he faces. Also, when you consider there are teams starting Boom Herron or Toby Gerhart at running back, it's safe to say losing Elliot is a downgrade in some situations.

 

If you recall, you're the one who called me a fucktard. If you took a look at a couple of my posts, you'd see I'm a Packers fan first and foremost. I'm used to seeing Rodgers play and the guy has the lowest interception percentage in NFL history. Forgive me for thinking that going from 6 picks a year to 13 qualifies as "all those picks". Perhaps before insulting me you could have, at the very least, considered that it was a tongue-in-cheek comment...

Fair enough.

 

You've proven to be the opposite of a fucktard.

 

You're now among the four or five people here that I actually think can carry on a real football conversation.

[Tour2ma]

That's true, but there's other things to take into account as well, like teams playing with extra men in the box to stop Ezekiel Elliot and giving Jones more one to one match-ups down the field. Jones threw twice as many picks on a per attempt basis, that seems to account for the more vertical passing game.

If you extend his picks/attempt % to 500 attempts, which is about the NFL average over 16 games, that's 13 picks. Add the fact that he's transitioning to the pros and facing better defenses, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to expect him to throw 13-16 picks over an entire season.

 

I get that people would love to have a Cleveland guy playing QB for the Browns...

First, the local thing is just a cherry on top. Outsiders always think it is a much bigger deal than it is. If I had a dollar for every JM-lovin' Aggie that proclaimed local-boy Hoyer only got my support because...

 

Second, you hold out 13 INTs as if that's a bad total for an NFL season. It's not. Nine full-time starters including a few franchise to great QBs threw more. Many more threw 10 to 13. Yes, fewer INTs is better, but only a few NFL starters (Rodgers 5, Smith 6, Wilson 7, and BigBen/ Brady 9) managed to stay in single digits.

 

Other factors are of much greater import than a mere total. These would include timing of the INTs, i.e., their game impact, but you can't capture those in simple stats. But TD:INT ratio is a "capturable" stat as is INT frequency with the added advantage of the latter (taken in combination with attempts) reflecting a team's ability to run the ball.

 

Offer me 30-ish TDs and 13 INTs for a season. It's not Aaron's 38/5, but I'll take it.

[andeftw]

Fair enough.

 

You've proven to be the opposite of a fucktard.

 

You're now among the four or five people here that I actually think can carry on a real football conversation.

 

No worries man. I take it personally when people insult me because I try to add some value with my comments. I should probably avoid tongue in cheek comments and sarcasm on forums now that I think of it, it's always hard to figure out if someone is trolling or not, especially when you are new to a forum like in my case.

 

First, the local thing is just a cherry on top. Outsiders always think it is a much bigger deal than it is. If I had a dollar for every JM-lovin' Aggie that proclaimed local-boy Hoyer only got my support because...

 

Second, you hold out 13 INTs as if that's a bad total for an NFL season. It's not. Nine full-time starters including a few franchise to great QBs threw more. Many more threw 10 to 13. Yes, fewer INTs is better, but only a few NFL starters (Rodgers 5, Smith 6, Wilson 7, and BigBen/ Brady 9) managed to stay in single digits.

 

Other factors are of much greater import than a mere total. These would include timing of the INTs, i.e., their game impact, but you can't capture those in simple stats. But TD:INT ratio is a "capturable" stat as is INT frequency with the added advantage of the latter (taken in combination with attempts) reflecting a team's ability to run the ball.

 

Offer me 30-ish TDs and 13 INTs for a season. It's not Aaron's 38/5, but I'll take it.

 

That's the issue though, they're Manziel fans and nothing more. I was a fan of the guy back in college since I have no allegiance, but he needs to start fresh this offseason or he'll end up just like Vince Young.

 

I think 13 INTs is a fairly optimistic forecast considering the downgrade in the running game and the much better defenses he will play. At the same time you can argue that few teams will force a rookie QB to throw the ball 30 times a game if they can avoid it. Overall, I'm a fan of Cardale. I still think JT Barrett will be starting at QB next year, but Jones is an excellent pro prospect. It's hard to find a guy with such a strong arm and good touch.

 

My issue with the thread is the title and all the hype. I can understand something like this for Luck, who was basically guaranteed the top pick halfway through his sophomore season, but Cardale has played just three games as a starter and might not even start next season. I'm suggesting to cool off a little until he plays a few games. What's the point of tanking, which will force another organizational overhaul, for what is at the moment a promising, but still unknown, prospect?