wargograw Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 Show your facts, idiot. I already have. The text of the letters of secession from each state and the very public pronouncements of both leaders of the Confederacy show clearly that slavery is the entirety of the cause. This isn't "opinion" - the objective fact is a matter of historical record. The issue is "Why the South was actually created" ---- not "What you WISH was true because you can't accept reality on reality's terms" You won't respond - because you've got nothing. No, the issue is "what does the flag mean today?" and you are completely wrong on it. It's a symbol for the southern way of life, and I've seen enough hatred for the south on this board alone to know that it is a distinct thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted June 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 Back in the day, when I was stationed at Keesler AFB, Biloxi Miss.... we had church retreats at this Baptist church. When we first started going, there was this fat pudgy southern guy that ran the place... it was a beautiful camp.. he told us men and women couldn't swim together in the pond, and there was to be no inter-racial hand-holding, etc etc... our camp in charge Chaplain, was white....from Georgia, and very much quietly told him that we didn't play those bigotry games, and he should leave and not try to interfere again.... that is about the only time we ever saw him upset about anything, he really lit into the guy, although, quietly, he still lit into him. The pudgy bigot never once came back, ever. Too bad- we had our own 60 person pudgy bigot alert system set up... never got to use it. bigotry can be anywhere...this idea that it's the south, etc etc....is just asinine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 the US flag is also a flag of treason. So you're.. English? Good luck with that. Prove your assertion, liar. The US flag is not a flag of treason. No, the issue is "what does the flag mean today?" It means today the same thing it's always meant from minute 1 of its existence: Treason and slavery. Every moment spent flying that flag is a disgrace to Union men who died for America, as well as the victims in Bleeding Kansas and the other border wars. Your attempt at historical revisionism doesn't change the facts. You are quite literally spitting in the face of history when you post your lies. Your second-rate loser flag flew in battle for years to defend nothing but your asserted right to slavery -- that will never change, and it's a stain you should be interested in burying.. as Robert E Lee recognized before he died. You want to honor the South? Then fly the American flag. It's the flag that actually does honor everybody and puts the past behind us. Unless, of course, you're not actually interested in America and truly wish there wasn't an "us." FYI, if and when you actually do take up arms against America... there's a word for what you'd become: A terrorist. Because Lincoln and DC never formally recognized the Confederacy as a nation, by definition, the Union was just putting down a terrorist uprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 The answer is yes, the US flag is also a flag of treason. I see you decided not to argue that, because it's patently true. Thanks. You don't get to decide what it "will always stand for," especially when the entire ideology of your ill is about spitting in the face of history. Spare me. Yeah but not treason against our own country. I guess I find there to be some difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 Yeah I don't see what's so hard to get about the distinction. You're a citizen of Country A. Flag A is a symbol of treason against Country B. Ok to fly? Sure. You're a citizen of Country A. Flag C is a symbol of treason against Country A. Ok to fly? No. I mean, as a private citizen, you're free to do as you like. Just don't pretend the flag stands for something it doesn't. That flag was flown by people that wanted to break from and ultimately cripple the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 While Unsympathetic has set a high bar for chronic outrage. WSS LOL! And it's so much fun egging him on. Don't fuck it up WSS! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 The 13 stripes in our flag are a symbol of the 13 rebellious colonies against England and our King George at that time. The tories would have disagreed with you about our flag. "The Loyalists were American colonists who remained loyal to the British Crown during the American Revolutionary War. At the time they were often called Tories, Royalists, or King's Men; Patriots called them "persons inimical to the liberties of America". --Wiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 The 13 stripes in our flag Thanks for finally agreeing with me that we share a flag. That's the one you fly. Simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 I never disagreed with you that it is our flag. BTW Unsympathetic do a little research on the difficulty of black freemen in the north trying to fight for the north in the first years of the war. EDIT: Then do a little about how they were treated north and south for decades after the war. Not a pretty picture anywhere in this country. You might also want to research the complicit use of southern slave picked cotton delivered to the northern textile mills leading right up to the Civil War. There were not a lot of angels on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 Ah yes. Really no different at all... Modern day southerners flying the Confederate flag really is justified now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 What's interesting here are the very conservative posters views. They support the flag to be anti PC and anti SJW. To the point they need to block out the fact they're really supporting something that was anti America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 Ah yes. Really no different at all... Modern day southerners flying the Confederate flag really is justified now And contrary to some accusations here, most in the south really don't like it either. Since Trump started his venomous style of personal attacks, I have seen it flown more on pickups than in the prior 20-30 years. I personally don't like either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 I worked near a more rural area in Indiana for 3 years. I thought it was funny when I saw pickups with big Confederate flags on the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 And contrary to some accusations here, most in the south really don't like it either. Since Trump started his venomous style of personal attacks, I have seen it flown more on pickups than in the prior 20-30 years. I personally don't like either. Trump has been on the receiving end of some venomous personal attacks as well. The rebel flag has it's place in a museum. It is not a flag I would ever want. The South was on the wrong side of slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 The South was on the wrong side of slavery. Yes, they were. But one thing I am proud about concerning one of my slave owning great-great-grandparents was that when slavery ended and their few slaves were free, they offered a woman named Kate to stay on at a small wage to help raise kids and grandkids. Part of the deal was that they would build her her own house on their property and when she went blind (likely from diabetes) in later life they retired her there and cared for her for the rest of her life. My grandmother was named after her and when Kate died she was laid to rest next to my great-great grandparents in what was otherwise an all white cemetery in a very small rural farm town. Those choices were left totally up to her. Were they wrong to own her in the first place? Absolutely. But knowing she had nowhere else to go when slavery ended, they gave her an option that most never got after being freed. My grandmother always talked about Kate as if she were her own mother and made sure I understood Kate was family when she took me to the gravesite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Yes, they were. But one thing I am proud about concerning one of my slave owning great-great-grandparents was that when slavery ended and their few slaves were free, they offered a woman named Kate to stay on at a small wage to help raise kids and grandkids. Part of the deal was that they would build her her own house on their property and when she went blind (likely from diabetes) in later life they retired her there and cared for her for the rest of her life. My grandmother was named after her and when Kate died she was laid to rest next to my great-great grandparents in what was otherwise an all white cemetery in a very small rural farm town. Those choices were left totally up to her. Were they wrong to own her in the first place? Absolutely. But knowing she had nowhere else to go when slavery ended, they gave her an option that most never got after being freed. My grandmother always talked about Kate as if she were her own mother and made sure I understood Kate was family when she took me to the gravesite. Sounds like your ancestors were good people. There are lots of horror stories though of slaves being treated horribly. The North many times were no saints either but their cause was more just not only to preserve the union but in abolishing slavery. Lincoln was a great president at the right time of our history. It is sad to see race relations today as bad as they are when we really have come a long way. I would like to see us focus more on how far we have come and work to make things even better than to constantly focus on the negative. I blame some of this on black leaders like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who made themselves very wealthy by constantly talking about the negative and never about the positive changes in our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 OK Civil War Quiz time just for fun. http://definition.org/civil-war-quiz/?utm_source=Taboola&utm_medium=aol-aol&utm_campaign=DEF_US_D_Taboola_36990_507099&utm_content=38095805 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 44 right out of 62. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Yes the South was on the wrong side of slavery but remember Lincoln didn't care all that much as he was willing to allow some slave territories if he could have kept the Union together. It was also expensive and becoming less and less efficient as technology moved on. Also remember that slavery was across the world come or even the English who lecture us now about it. As did the American Indians who we have turned into magical sense in hindsight. And it's still happening around the world even in places that we are scolded if we don't speak respectfully of. The world moved on slavery's in the past. Everybody's ancestors got shit from somebody. And probably gave shit to somebody. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Yes the South was on the wrong side of slavery but remember Lincoln didn't care all that much as he was willing to allow some slave territories if he could have kept the Union together. It was also expensive and becoming less and less efficient as technology moved on. Also remember that slavery was across the world come or even the English who lecture us now about it. As did the American Indians who we have turned into magical sense in hindsight. And it's still happening around the world even in places that we are scolded if we don't speak respectfully of. The world moved on slavery's in the past. Everybody's ancestors got shit from somebody. And probably gave shit to somebody. WSS That is why I posted there were many instances where the North were not saints but the bottom line is the North was fighting for a just cause and the South was not. My understanding is by the time our country was founded England had already abolished slavery and the main reason it was allowed in this country by the founders were to keep the Southern states in the union who wanted slaves to work on their farms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 The just cause you speak of is that the North didn't want to compete with the South because in those days cotton as a commodity very much like oil has been over the last few decades. Without crippling the south's ability to produce and sell to Europe the North would fall behind in the short run. And even if we are pretending the war was to end slavery look at nothing other than Sherman's March. The outrageous war crimes committed by both sides are more than a normal human being should be able support reguardless of what the fake reasons are . WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 The just cause you speak of is that the North didn't want to compete with the South because in those days cotton as a commodity very much like oil has been over the last few decades. Without crippling the south's ability to produce and sell to Europe the North would fall behind in the short run. And even if we are pretending the war was to end slavery look at nothing other than Sherman's March. The outrageous war crimes committed by both sides are more than a normal human being should be able support reguardless of what the fake reasons are . WSS The just cause is the outcome of the war itself, the abolition of slavery and the preservation of the union. Rethinking Sherman’s March https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/17/rethinking-shermans-march/?_r=0 Top 5 Causes of the Civil War https://www.thoughtco.com/top-causes-of-the-civil-war-104532 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 I don't think the Union is sacred. I'm fine with-it as it is But had there been two countries we would not know any difference. Slavery would have disappeared no matter what just as it did around the world in any civilized place. As a matter of fact historically had the British won the Revolutionary War our lives would probly not be any different. Don't get me wrong I'm proud enough to be an American and all that shitt but 1st and foremost I am a friend and family member and human being. Territorial loyalty is fun especially during football season. But how would we be any more or less free than the Canadians or the British or anybody else had we lost the Revolutionary War? Or had we needed to cross a border to get to South Carolina and Florida? It really wouldn't mean anything to us in 2017 WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 I don't think the Union is sacred. I'm fine with-it as it is But Heather been to countries we would not know any difference. Slavery would have disappeared no matter what just as it did around the world in any civilized place. As a matter of fact historically had the British won the Revolutionary War our lives would probly not be any different. Don't get me wrong I'm proud enough to be an American and all that shitt but 1st and foremost I am a friend and family member and human being. Territorial loyalty is fun especially during football season. But how would we be any more or less free than the Canadians or the British or anybody else had we lost the Revolutionary War? Or had we needed to cross a border to get to South Carolina and Florida? It really wouldn't mean anything to us in 2017 WSS Slavery would have eventually disappeared but would it have been replaced by an apartheid system in the South? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 I would never be a subject to some fucking 'Queen or King'. MAGA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Slavery would have eventually disappeared but would it have been replaced by an apartheid system in the South? Of course not, that's just silly. There was slavery all-over the civilized world-and and Fill out of use all-around the same time. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 http://www.tolerance.org/supplement/myths-about-civil-war-and-slavery Now this article tends to disagree with me but I've read others that don't. 1st of all they had to sell the cotton to The Europeans who had recently ended slavery and were against it. But I have no doubt most of them would have come to the North. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 14, 2017 Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 I don't think the Union is sacred. I'm fine with-it as it is But Heather been to countries we would not know any difference. Don't get me wrong I'm proud enough to be an American and all that shitt but 1st and foremost I am a friend and family member and human being. Territorial loyalty is fun especially during football season. But how would we be any more or less free than the Canadians or the British or anybody else had we lost the Revolutionary War? Or had we needed to cross a border to get to South Carolina and Florida? It really wouldn't mean anything to us in 2017 WSS You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope some day you'll join us And the world will be as one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 14, 2017 Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 "Were they wrong to in her in the first place? Absolutely. But..." "Was the South on the wrong side of slavery? Yes. But..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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