The Gipper Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 I don't care who he thinks he is. The Browns organization moved to Baltimore and we were given an expansion team. But you can believe that technically a tree is a rock if you want. Well, whatever you think you are, you are in fact a fucking dumbass. An organization is not a franchise....it is simply an amalgamation of people. The franchise is the legal entity. So, again, you think you know more than the two franchises involved, the two cities involved, the two states involved, the two counties involved, and the NFL. Since you know more than 6 different governmental entities and 3 different corporate entities perhaps you should like run for something.....like for Mayor of Dogpatch (or some other mythical, fictional place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 What? Never heard of petrified wood? There you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 Gip, prior to the end of the '95 season was Modell, in fact, enjoined from moving the team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 Gip, prior to the end of the '95 season was Modell, in fact, enjoined from moving the team? Gip can correct me on this, but IIRC- what happened was Cleveland's lawyers looked over Modell's stadium lease, and found a "specific performance" clause. Meaning Artie could move to Baltimore, but he was stuck playing his home games in Cleveland until the lease ran out.That's what forced the deal, not any kindness on Artie's part. Whether there was a Cuyahoga court injunction on top of that, don't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 Explanation about the "expansion" term. The franchise was NOT an expansion franchise....it was the same franchise. Correct....but yall are debating semantics..... is WAS an expansion "team"....which is what these guys are saying.....so, you're either too dense to get that or are just being a twat....(or both?) Well, whatever you think you are, you are in fact a fucking dumbass. An organization is not a franchise....it is simply an amalgamation of people. The franchise is the legal entity. And, there, you've said it......a franchise is just the legal entity.....a TEAM is an amalgamation of people(like an org).....so, by definition, the team was an expansion team, created by conducting an expansion draft.....but the franchise was not an expansion franchise.......and everybody wins.... There you go! Yep.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck The Frowns Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 It's ok Orion were too obtuse to understand the invisible team that was in Cleveland for three years. Well, they were undefeated...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 Me and Gip argued with Baltomorons for years over the facts. I got my screen name the Hoorta because of it. You can believe whatever the hell you want to, but it doesn't change the facts one bit. Click on the "in trust" link to find out what that legally means- and don't argue with Gip, he's a lawyer. You and Orion can disagree with Wiki if you like. "In 1995, owner Art Modell, who had purchased the Browns in 1961, announced plans to move the team to Baltimore Maryland. After threats of legal action from the city of Cleveland and fans, a compromise was reached in early 1996 that allowed Modell to establish the Baltimore Ravens as a new franchise while retaining the contracts of all Browns personnel. The Browns' intellectual property, including team name, logos, training facility, and history, were kept in trust and the (Browns) franchise was regarded by the NFL as suspended. A new team would be established by 1999 either by expansion or relocation. The Browns were announced as an expansion team in 1998 and resumed play in 1999." Or maybe the Pro Football Hall of Fame, the NFL'S official record keeper. "Determined to keep the team in Cleveland, Browns fans and Cleveland city officials orchestrated an unprecedented grass-roots campaign to block the move. The NFL quickly responded and, working with city officials, developed a unique solution that not only provided for a new state-of-the-art stadium, but guaranteed the return of pro football to Cleveland by no later than 1999. Additionally, Art Modell agreed to relinquish the "Browns" name, colors and team history to the new owner of the suspended franchise." and one thing that I thought very cool,the Browns flag flew at every super bowl they had during are absence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 And, there, you've said it......a franchise is just the legal entity.....a TEAM is an amalgamation of people(like an org).....so, by definition, the team was an expansion team, created by conducting an expansion draft.....but the franchise was not an expansion franchise.......and everybody wins.... Mud, that's what we've been saying all along, DUH! Yeah, it's sort of a technicality- but it's the right one. Nothing pisses me off more when people erroneously say the Baltimore Ravens are the old Browns. They are not, and never were. Some former Browns players played for the Ravens- Matt Stover was the last (original) holdover. Same difference 2016 style- Terrance West played for the Browns- and now he plays for the Ravens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 So at minimum the team moved and the franchise stayed. I'm deeper into the weeds/minutia... Gip can correct me on this, but IIRC- what happened was Cleveland's lawyers looked over Modell's stadium lease, and found a "specific performance" clause. Meaning Artie could move to Baltimore, but he was stuck playing his home games in Cleveland until the lease ran out.That's what forced the deal, not any kindness on Artie's part. Whether there was a Cuyahoga court injunction on top of that, don't remember. Yes, the stadium contract was the city's basis for the suit. However, but unless Art was enjoined from making the move pending the resolution of the suit, then it can be argued that the franchise left the city and was restored by the settlement. Like you, I do not remember whether or not the court issued any such order... and google doesn't seem to want to go that deep. Hopefully Judge Gipper has better access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 Correct....but yall are debating semantics..... is WAS an expansion "team"....which is what these guys are saying.....so, you're either too dense to get that or are just being a twat....(or both?) And, there, you've said it......a franchise is just the legal entity.....a TEAM is an amalgamation of people(like an org).....so, by definition, the team was an expansion team, created by conducting an expansion draft.....but the franchise was not an expansion franchise.......and everybody wins.... Yep.... Gip can correct me on this, but IIRC- what happened was Cleveland's lawyers looked over Modell's stadium lease, and found a "specific performance" clause. Meaning Artie could move to Baltimore, but he was stuck playing his home games in Cleveland until the lease ran out.That's what forced the deal, not any kindness on Artie's part. Whether there was a Cuyahoga court injunction on top of that, don't remember. To answer you and Tour, yes, an injunction was issued by the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court. It ruled that indeed, the specific performance clause required the Cleveland Browns to play their games in Cleveland Municipal Stadium for an additional 3 years. So, yes, they had to play their games there......but no, they were not mandated to have their training site in Berea or the HQ in the Cleveland area. It also did not mandate that they had to maintain Muni. Art Modell could have let it rot...which was what the NFL in particular didn't want to see: its games being played in an unmaintained decrepit stadium. The NFL primarily brokered the settlement....which left the Cleveland Browns franchise in Cleveland. As to what constitutes a "team", a lot of components constitute a team: Component A: Did the owner leave? Yes. Components B and C: Did the GM and the HC go with him? Belichick was canned...and don't recall the GM NO. Component D: Did the scouting crew go? I don't really know, some may have other perhaps not. (they are often not kept). Ozzie Newsome was NOT hired as the GM of the Ravens until after that team was formed in Baltimore....so he didn't "move" ....unless he held some underling position with them, which he may have. Component E: The players: some players went and some didn't. It is like every NFL team....you have a 1/3rd turnover every year. Component F: Did other Front Office personell leave? Some did....Kevin Byrne. Others I know did not. It was in a sense a complete reorganization. It was at best a 50% of a "team" that left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingfooldoug Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 OK one post, as new and proud Browns fan, I will share this story with you in order to give you inspiration and back bone. One Monday evening 3 football fans are walking to their local watering hole to watch the game. One guy was a stealer fan, one was a Lion's fan and the 3rd a Browns fan. They went around a corner and came upon the body of a woman lying there nude. Real quick the Browns fan placed his cap on her left breast and says we gotta get a cop. The Lions fan puts his cap on her other breast and sez let's go. The stealer fan puts his cap on her crotch and sez I'm with ya. They quickly find a cop and return. The cop looks at her and picks up the lion and Browns caps and return them. He then stoops and picks up the hat on her crotch, gets a real puzzled look on his face and drops the cap back down and scratches his head. The stool sample looking concerned asked if something is wrong. The cop stated that he was confused because every time he had ever seen a stealer hat that it always had an asshole under it. Please remember this story and tell it each time you see one of those hats. It's a great pre emptive strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted October 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 OK one post, as new and proud Browns fan, I will share this story with you in order to give you inspiration and back bone. One Monday evening 3 football fans are walking to their local watering hole to watch the game. One guy was a stealer fan, one was a Lion's fan and the 3rd a Browns fan. They went around a corner and came upon the body of a woman lying there nude. Real quick the Browns fan placed his cap on her left breast and says we gotta get a cop. The Lions fan puts his cap on her other breast and sez let's go. The stealer fan puts his cap on her crotch and sez I'm with ya. They quickly find a cop and return. The cop looks at her and picks up the lion and Browns caps and return them. He then stoops and picks up the hat on her crotch, gets a real puzzled look on his face and drops the cap back down and scratches his head. The stool sample looking concerned asked if something is wrong. The cop stated that he was confused because every time he had ever seen a stealer hat that it always had an asshole under it. Please remember this story and tell it each time you see one of those hats. It's a great pre emptive strike. Lol very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted October 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Goddamn fellas I was denouncing the Cards and said I turned brown. Didn't mean to start a Pissing contest. Gee whiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck The Frowns Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Goddamn fellas I was denouncing the Cards and said I turned brown. Didn't mean to start a Pissing contest. Gee whiz ANYTHING starts a pissing contest on this board. Anyway, I recall many references at the time to an expansion draft that would fill up the Browns roster, which means that on one level the league thought of the Browns as a new team. I don't think anyone thought there would be cyber fistfights over it so many years later. If no one cared then, why care now? Oh, here's an interesting official NFL logo..... (ducks quickly) https://www.google.com/search?q=1999+NFL+expansion+draft&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=nsvi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt457Cme7PAhVKPT4KHaD5DxUQ_AUICigE&biw=1024&bih=704#imgrc=jR5BB-IBQdFuyM%3A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Lol very good Then there was the Browns fan and the 2 Stooler fans who went deer hunting together. The land owner put the stooler fans in their own deer blind and the Browns fan in another with instructions not to leave it since the woods were thick and he didn't want any accidents. Sure enough a trophy buck went right past the Browns fan's open area before he could get a shot off. He couldn't stand it so left the stand and right on cue, Bam, Bam--- he' on the ground. The stooler fans rush him to the hospital where he is taken in for emergency surgery. When the doctor comes out they ask if he is gonna be ok. The doc says, "Well judging from where the entry and exit wounds were located I thought he had a good chance-----------------if only you boys hadn't field dressed him before you brought him in." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingfooldoug Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Then there was the Browns fan and the 2 Stooler fans who went deer hunting together. The land owner put the stooler fans in their own deer blind and the Browns fan in another with instructions not to leave it since the woods were thick and he didn't want any accidents. Sure enough a trophy buck went right past the Browns fan's open area before he could get a shot off. He couldn't stand it so left the stand and right on cue, Bam, Bam--- he' on the ground. The stooler fans rush him to the hospital where he is taken in for emergency surgery. When the doctor comes out they ask if he is gonna be ok. The doc says, "Well judging from where the entry and exit wounds were located I thought he had a good chance-----------------if only you boys hadn't field dressed him before you brought him in." No Browns fan in his right mind would hunt with stool fans. Maybe fish with em....time to cut bait and fish for carp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 I Mike B from Il. have denounced the Az Cardinals and am announcing I'm a Browns fan now. There is a reason I've been here and fuck anyone that shuns my Browns. Anyone becoming a Browns fan during one of the worst losing stretches in our history ought to be a great fan when we get things turned around (and we will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Oh, here's an interesting official NFL logo..... (ducks quickly) https://www.google.com/search?q=1999+NFL+expansion+draft&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=nsvi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt457Cme7PAhVKPT4KHaD5DxUQ_AUICigE&biw=1024&bih=704#imgrc=jR5BB-IBQdFuyM%3A lol... clearly photoshopped from the official, Browns' "1999 Reactivation Draft" patch... I'd forgotten how forgettable that draft was... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NFL_expansion_draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 lol... clearly photoshopped from the official, Browns' "1999 Reactivation Draft" patch... I'd forgotten how forgettable that draft was... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NFL_expansion_draft Took Couch over McNabb, Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner and Spergeon Wynn over Tom Brady all within a little over a year. That is how you set a tone. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck The Frowns Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 Took Couch over McNabb, Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner and Spergeon Wynn over Tom Brady all within a little over a year. That is how you set a tone. Z The players offered in that draft were not exactly prime beef! There is a list somewhere online, I have seen it. Pgh once had Earl Morrall, Jack Kemp, and Len Dawson.....ALL AT THE SAME TIME! Didn't know what to do with them. And two seasons before that, they cut Johnny Unitas. Jim Finks and Ted Marchibroda (OK, not really that good) were in there too, but somehow Pgh would stink for another 15 years, until they learned to set a tone. And evaluate talent. So, an organization can be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 lol... clearly photoshopped from the official, Browns' "1999 Reactivation Draft" patch... I'd forgotten how forgettable that draft was... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NFL_expansion_draft I attended that Draft. I had a pin from it that I thought might one day become a collector's item. Instead of selling it, I gave it to my neighbor's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 Took Couch over McNabb, Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner and Spergeon Wynn over Tom Brady all within a little over a year. That is how you set a tone. Z Dwight Clark was special, wasn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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