calfoxwc Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 without the heart, I wouldn't draft any player with that problem. I'd draft a player without all the fancy glamour etc, stats from a big school.... then they go DUD in the pros. Tour can keep his stats only foolishness, I'd draft far more on heart, love for the game. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/04/for_the_love_of_the_game_how_c.html#incart_story_package Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 without the heart, I wouldn't draft any player with that problem. I'd draft a player without all the fancy glamour etc, stats from a big school.... then they go DUD in the pros. Tour can keep his stats only foolishness, I'd draft far more on heart, love for the game. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/04/for_the_love_of_the_game_how_c.html#incart_story_package Good god, you're fucking Retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 HA!!!!!!! let's try and hang together for the next 9 days guys.... it's gonna be a test of time for a lot of us! WOOO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Tour can keep his stats only foolishness, I'd draft far more on heart, love for the game. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/04/for_the_love_of_the_game_how_c.html#incart_story_package Nice shot... if it doesn't matter that you can't back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 If we drafted purely on heart, we'd have a team of Division 3 players. It's a healthy mix of production, intangibles, desire, intelligence and aptitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 ha, didn't say PURELY nothin. But stats are not the end all/sole justifier of tiam's and tour's arguments about all this. And yes, I think I could back it up. I just have to work at getting into the Browns scout team biz, and I'm already retired. Tiam must be Tattoo to Tour's Mr. Rourke.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 without the heart, I wouldn't draft any player with that problem. I'd draft a player without all the fancy glamour etc, stats from a big school.... then they go DUD in the pros. Tour can keep his stats only foolishness, I'd draft far more on heart, love for the game. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/04/for_the_love_of_the_game_how_c.html#incart_story_package FWIW, the Buffalo Bills front office did a great job of researching high motor/quality inner-chest guys from small schools or smaller-time DI programs such as: Andre Reed (Kutztown State - Div III), Pete Metzelaars (Wabash State), Don Beebe (Chadron State), Phil Hanson (North Dakota State), Jeff Wright (Central Mizzou), Mark Kelso (William & Mary), Howard Ballard (Alabama A&M), Leon Seals (Jackson State) They had their big name guys too like Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett, Thurman Thomas, Shane Conlan, Darryl Talley, and Jim Kelly. I was raised in Western, NY so I was around when they were building up a team good enough to win 4 AFC Championships. There was a great newspaper article from the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle sportswriter Scott Pitoniak. Anyway, he wrote how the Bills scouting dept would routinely dig as deep junior high school teachers and admin to see what kind of character many of their intriguing prospects had. They were as big on the character side as they were on the talent. Nothing is 100% and Bruce Smith got suspended more than once for drugs. I'm looking forward to seeing what Farmer and the scouting dept does here. I thought last year's offseason plan was impressive and I like what they've done in FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 Although, I did accidently white bleep out part of my post.... ********************************************** I'd draft a player without all the fancy glamour etc, stats from a big school.... than some goof with red flags with fantastic stats.... because they talk a good talk, but then they go DUD in the pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 ha, didn't say PURELY nothin. But stats are not the end all/sole justifier of tiam's and tour's arguments about all this. And yes, I think I could back it up. I just have to work at getting into the Browns scout team biz, and I'm already retired. Tiam must be Tattoo to Tour's Mr. Rourke.... At least I'm a handsome midget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 At least I WAS a handsome midget. fixed. yeah he put a gun in his mouth. sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 fixed. yeah he put a gun in his mouth. sorry. Awww. That's a shame. Wait, so im a dead midget? Never been called that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 cal, I know I have never have said desire was not part of the equation... and I suspect you know that. And I cannot remember tia making such an argument either... but suspect you know that as well. But enough suspecting what you know. Answer me this... If you think desire, love of the game drives players to succeed, then won't their "stats" reflect that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 without the heart, I wouldn't draft any player with that problem. I'd draft a player without all the fancy glamour etc, stats from a big school.... then they go DUD in the pros. I'd draft a player without all the fancy glamour etc, stats from a big school.... than some goof with red flags with fantastic stats.... because they talk a good talk, but then they go DUD in the pros. So, are we talking red flags(character) or are we talking love of the game(effort) or are we talking attitude(never say die?)....and how do we measure those in one sit down meeting and know which players are which? I look at Winston and hear he has character issues, though it's very clear he has a tremendous love for the game and massive heart to win...... Then I look at JFF and hear about his love for football and his never say die - I can overcome anything - type of play....but there's that character thing again......(so, is it heart or character were looking for.....keep forgetting???) Of course, you could grab a guy like Tebow, because he has huge heart AND great character......(screw the stats part) I look at this draft and see guys like Green-Beckham and Dawson, who would both be top 10 picks, but dont see anyone here promoting them(and they have the monster stats)........so who IS getting promoted, based upon stats only, that we shouldn't be considering? Who in this draft are the high character/heart/love for the game guys we should pick?......and who's not? And since you chose to go on the attack with Tour and Tia(both guys who seem to have a grip on the talent and how to rate it), Id be curious to know what low character- no heart - trouble makers are they promoting due only to stats?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 You're suspect, alright... But seriously, not necessarily. Depends on the players around him, the level of competition, scheme, the players responsibilities. There have been a whole lot of qbs who had great stats in college who never made it in the NFL. Back in the day, there was Jack Lambert, who did. And Gerald Tinker, who was a world class speedster star football player, who didn't, and ended up with a knee injury that killed his career. The qb was amazing, whatever his name was. I think he was signed as a ufa, but never made it. Then again, every year, guys with meager stats end up doing great in the pros. Small school guys, ufa's, guys who didn't have great stats, but played behind great players in college and didn't get to show it. Guys who played in systems that didn't showcase their versatility skills... Stats are fine, but they are only a smaller part of any eval I would make, that's all. Take Phil Savage, the super stats guy. Brady Quinn had GREAT stats. That's what I'm talkin about. I knew Gary Pinkel - he was the tight end at Kent, and was actually Jack Lambert's roommate. Pinkel was inducted into the Kent State Varsity "K" Hall of Fame in 1997. Never made it to the pros. His stats were terrific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Stats are fine, but they are only a smaller part of any eval I would make, that's all. So, the larger part is heart & character?.... How do you measure that with 400 hopefuls waiting to get drafted????.....especially when you're not using stats to rate them? Do you have a couple examples of some "no stats -big heart" guys that we should be drafting this year?....and, if you do(Im hoping), can you tell me how that was determined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Mud, we are talking everything. I just ran afoul of Tour and his stats once, that's all. I wouldn't bring it up now, but Tour and Tiam gave me some crap, so I'm simply responding with some negative attention back, okie dokie? I never said "no" to stats. But using them to make yourself look like your opinions are superior is nonsense. And nobody is talking about "no stats". That's dumb. My beef is usiing them as the main determinator, when red flags render those stats useless. when a terrific player in college ends up a dud in the pros. Mike Junkin had outstanding stats. Ryan Leaf had outstanding stats. Let's put it in historical perspective. Ryan Leaf, runner up for the Heisman, If I remember correctly. The other qb contending for the first pick....Peyton Manning. The team that went with character won the day. The team that was wowed by the stats... blew it badly. That's simply my philosophy about it all. Leaf had the stronger arm, yada yada jibber jabber. I would never have drafted him, forget the freakin stats. That's how I see Winston - a big risk outside of the stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Fair enough..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Mud, we are talking everything. I just ran afoul of Tour and his stats once, that's all. I wouldn't bring it up now, but Tour and Tiam gave me some crap, so I'm simply responding with some negative attention back, okie dokie? I never said "no" to stats. But using them to make yourself look like your opinions are superior is nonsense. And nobody is talking about "no stats". That's dumb. My beef is usiing them as the main determinator, when red flags render those stats useless. when a terrific player in college ends up a dud in the pros. Mike Junkin had outstanding stats. So supporting my opinion with the basis for my opinion is a bad thing? And here I thought that's what forums were all about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Not trying to argue, but it can get confusing between character and heart....still trying to work that out... when I look at Winston vs Mariota(for example)....I see 2 guys, both with great stats... Then I see Winston as the guy with the huge heart, fire to win and love for the game....(and character questions) While I see Mariota as the good character, no red flag guy...but with little heart and no obvious love for the game. Just kinda ho hum. So, then it gets hard...cause do you choose character or heart??? (lots of good character-huge heart guys fail too....like Tebow for example).. I gotta say I dont have the answer and base my opinions on each separate scenario.... Examples:.... Id avoid Paul Dawson or Green-Beckham at all costs, because their red flags are HUGE....and.. Id avoid Mariota simply because I feel he "doesn't" have a tremendous love of the game or the huge heart needed to be a leader and will his team to victory.... But, Id take Winston, because I think he has a huge heart, loves the game and the character things(to me) are typical college kid stuff and nothing that really concerns me going forward(drugs or criminal tendencies would scare me more).... Im avoiding other top raters like Armstead(no heart) and Gregory(stupid & drugs) for similar reasons.... In the end....I think "play like a Brown" is more about heart and talent, than it is character......so, Browns would love a high effort/low character guy like Ray Lewis, but would probably hate a good character/low effort guy like Jay Cutler(for example).... Gotta say....they did keep Johnny and dump Hoyer.....and Hoyer had him with the character/love of the game(and town) thing(by a mile)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 lol. It's a balance of all things. Mariotta plays like he has fire, but his temperament says otherwise. Winston is amazing- and very, very smart. Smart enough to grow up and make a franchise proud ? We'll have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 lol. It's a balance of all things. Mariotta plays like he has fire, but his temperament says otherwise. Winston is amazing- and very, very smart. Smart enough to grow up and make a franchise proud ? We'll have to wait and see. Its tough......thats why I always say that Im glad NOT to be Ray Farmer...ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Its tough......thats why I always say that Im glad NOT to be Ray Farmer...ha! Seriously? That has to be such a sweet job, I'd love to be doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Seriously? That has to be such a sweet job, I'd love to be doing that. I would too(at least the $ and scouting part).....but I would hate to post a great draft and still spend everyday being shredded by a bunch of no nothings second guessing my every step.....my skin is just too thin for that type of job I guess..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 So supporting my opinion with the basis for my opinion is a bad thing? And here I thought that's what forums were all about... Oh yeah, when you had a minute I've been meaning to tell you that you've been fucking up the whole time with this forum thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Oh yeah, when you had a minute I've been meaning to tell you that you've been fucking up the whole time with this forum thing. Hey, I thought you were dead....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 In the end....I think "play like a Brown" is more about heart and talent, than it is character..... But you would not take D G-B? A bit of a paradox there methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 But you would not take D G-B? A bit of a paradox there methinks. Just too close to home with JG and the fact that, at that part of the draft, there are too many other players Id rather have.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted April 22, 2015 Report Share Posted April 22, 2015 Just too close to home with JG and the fact that, at that part of the draft, there are too many other players Id rather have.... Very good example with JG. JG's history of putting football after partying wasn't any secret; and the trend didn't lie to us unfortunately. When the Browns got their record to 6-3 last year - all I could think of was wait until we get Josh Gordon back on the field. To see a guy that didn't finish routes, adjust to coverages or look anything close to the guy we saw in 2013 - was an epic disappointment. If anything, our passing game got worse. That's probably why a lot of people don't share my intrigue for a big WR early on in this draft. I can tell you 1 big WR I don't want coming here is Green-Beckham. Character and heart are separate entities; but I think it's important to dig deep enough in the research to find both. By that I mean, research the work ethics and what types of kids these guys have been more than just their last 2-3 years of college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Just too close to home with JG and the fact that, at that part of the draft, there are too many other players Id rather have.... Plus just because you say "more than character" does not mean character is completely ignored. lol. It's a balance of all things. Mariotta plays like he has fire, but his temperament says otherwise. Winston is amazing- and very, very smart. Smart enough to grow up and make a franchise proud ? We'll have to wait and see. Back to football for me as well... Balance? Absolutely... we are bound to give different weight to different factors in the abstract. And on top of that we are going to see different things in individual cases. In Winston I see overwhelming talent and leader qualities. Certainly enough to overcome any character reluctance I might have. In MM I have not seen the fire on the field... nor have I seen joy. And that troubles me. Combined with his off-field persona (as most recently exhibited in Gruden School), I see a kid who is still not comfortable in his skin. Were I scouting him (and I just thought of this), then I'd spend time with his family. I'd want to be sure he has been playing purely because it was what he has wanted to do, and not because it was expected of him by Dad, peers, whomever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 . In Winston I see overwhelming talent and leader qualities. Certainly enough to overcome any character reluctance I might have. In MM I have not seen the fire on the field... nor have I seen joy. And that troubles me. (as most recently exhibited in Gruden School) Im with you 100%.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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