Which DB do we get rid of?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Right now, we have a serious talent pool at DB. On paper, it is easily and hands down the deepest and most talented position on our team. At CB, Haden, Gilbert and Olomu have first round potential talent. Haden and T.Williams have extended proven NFL production. K.Williams was one of the top ranked cover corners last season. At S, Tashaun Gipson is a top-five FS and Whitner is a top-10 SS.

FS and SS are locked in for this season. Haden is locked in at #1 CB, T.Williams likely at #2, probably K.Williams in the slot. Gilbert will grow and perform spot duty while he learns. Olomu is rehabbing - I expecting nothing from him whatsoever.

However,

• Let's assume that K'Wuan Williams continues his crazy ascension and becomes a full-time, legitimate starting outside cover corner for the next 8 seasons.
  
• Let's assume that Justin Gilbert reaches his potential and becomes the upper-echelon corner that he can be.
  
• Let's assume that Ifo Ekpre-Olomu returns 100% from his injury and becomes the NFL player he was projected to be last season (Kiper did have him as the top ranked CB in October).
  
• Let's assume that Tashaun Gipson ends up signing a 5-year contract.
  

In 2016 or 2017, that would leave us with 5 legitimate starting corners under contract, a top-10 FS under contract, and a top-10 SS under contract. So what do we do?

Do we attempt a restructure for Haden? Do we let Gipson walk? Who becomes priority?

[TypicalBrowns]

Gipsons play this year after injury will be the factor I think for coaches

[jrb12711]

Overall, I'm glad we have a good opportunity to be stacked at this position. I was thinking about this a lot recently and here's the scenario I think I'd like to see in my head the most:

 

-Haden is 26 and probably has 4 good seasons left which we have him all but locked him. He stays #1 in this time frame.

-Tramon Williams steps into #2 for this year while either Gilbert, Ifo or Williams proves to be the #3 guy. After the 1st year, we cut Williams loose (nature of the NFL) and said guy moves into #2 while the lesser players goes to three/four. I imagine they may just put Ifo on IR this year as a "redshirt" situation.

-Gipson has another solid year off the injury and stays with us-I'd like to see this happen especially as Whitner is aging.

-We find another gem in the pool of late round and UDFA guys like Williams who can provide depth on the cheap.

 

Long term, Haden slides into an aging role and goes to another team. The combination of Gilbert/Ifo/Williams and anyone else that steps up forms a new core of DB talent to lock up.

[The Gipper]

We keep them all as long as it can be worked out under the salary cap. You can never have enough good DBs. I mean, offenses are running 4 sometimes 5 wideouts....and the defense can use the people to cover them.

[Tour2ma]

Right now, we have a serious talent pool at DB. On paper, it is easily and hands down the deepest and most talented position on our team.

 

In 2016 or 2017, that would leave us with 5 legitimate starting corners under contract, a top-10 FS under contract, and a top-10 SS under contract. So what do we do?

 

Do we attempt a restructure for Haden? Do we let Gipson walk? Who becomes priority?

Isn't it great to actually have to contemplate restructuring a player? And you did not even mention Desir... and who knows whether there's another DB gem other that our red-shirt candidate hidden in this year's late picks and UDFAs.

 

While there is at least a season to go before the scenario becomes reality, I think that should it, then you deal some of the strength to improve lesser areas through trades for picks and players. Trade deals involving players are really the last frontier for Farmer.

 

Who? Stay tuned, but I will neither be surprised nor concerned if it was a starter. I have faith in this staff's ability to recognize and develop potential in its players.

[Suomi]

Keep 'em all. Stay STACKED at defensive back.

 

TCPO you neglected to include Pierre Desir in the mix. This kid - who is a tremendous athlete and played respectably this past year - may turn out to be a valuable asset and would further strengthen the group. Not nit-picking, just adding further fuel to the DB fire.

[wargograw]

Wouldn't Tramon be the obvious choice?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Wouldn't Tramon be the obvious choice?

I was assuming so, but that would still leave is 4 deep with solid talent - plus Desir, whom I completely overlooked.

[The Gipper]

Wouldn't Tramon be the obvious choice?

No, because they just picked him up as a FA....and he is a proven veteran and perhaps our 2d best DB after Haden.

 

The question is: How many DB roster spots are they going to use? I suspect that Olomu may be "redshirted"....put on some injury list for future development.

[Unsympathetic]

Tramon is old, and will lose more than one step in the next 3y.

Desir will be a backup S.

Gilbert will start at CB before the end of this year.

[The Gipper]

Tramon is old, and will lose more than one step in the next 3y.

Desir will be a backup S.

Gilbert will start at CB before the end of this year.

Well, we are talking about this year....not 3 years from now. (and fyi....Williams is only 30.....Darrell Green CB played almost until 40....and remained one of the fastest and best CBs in the league until he was at least 38.....so you never know about Williams "losing a step". Nothing like that is assured.

[Ibleedbrown]

You also didn't mention draft picks Campbell or Gaines. And who knows may come out of the woodwork with udfas.

 

I'm not conpletely sold on K Williams, but l want to be. If K williams does well though, and another recent DB draft pick or udfa comes out and performs well, l will be convinced that the Browns have a secondary scout that they need to lock up for a long, long, long ass time.

 

Long ass time. I want that guy to keel over at a division 2 school game when he's 90 something.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Well, we are talking about this year....not 3 years from now. (and fyi....Williams is only 30.....Darrell Green CB played almost until 40....and remained one of the fastest and best CBs in the league until he was at least 38.....so you never know about Williams "losing a step". Nothing like that is assured.

Actually, we were talking about a few years from now...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

You also didn't mention draft picks Campbell or Gaines. And who knows may come out of the woodwork with udfas.

 

I'm not conpletely sold on K Williams, but l want to be. If K williams does well though, and another recent DB draft pick or udfa comes out and performs well, l will be convinced that the Browns have a secondary scout that they need to lock up for a long, long, long ass time.

 

Long ass time. I want that guy to keel over at a division 2 school game when he's 90 something.

Who knows what could happen with those guys, although im not expecting more than backup potential and special teams bodies.

 

Only reason I mentioned Ifo is because of his favorable pre-injury grade.

[The Gipper]

Actually, we were talking about a few years from now...

The original post asked which DB we would have to get rid of this year, and wargograw suggested Williams. So I was talking about this year there. Then Unsympathetic said he would lose a step the next 3 years, and then I mentioned the Darrell Greene example.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

The original post asked which DB we would have to get rid of this year, and wargograw suggested Williams. So I was talking about this year there. Then Unsympathetic said he would lose a step the next 3 years, and then I mentioned the Darrell Greene example.

 

In 2016 or 2017, that would leave us with 5 legitimate starting corners under contract, a top-10 FS under contract, and a top-10 SS under contract. So what do we do?

 

 

I guess I did say 2016, but I was thinking after NEXT season at the earliest. My assumption was K'Wuan has a solid year this year, as does Gilbert, then Ifo has a solid year next year (after his "redshirt"). They will all be under contract, except K'Wuan, who will be entering FA. T.Williams will also be entering FA, and I kind of just assume he'd be the one to go.

 

That would leave us with 5 guys (excluding Desir) under 30 that we can't all keep at a starting CB contract. At least one goes.

 

But you're right, I did say 2016 in my original post. My bad.

[The Gipper]

 

 

I guess I did say 2016, but I was thinking after NEXT season at the earliest. My assumption was K'Wuan has a solid year this year, as does Gilbert, then Ifo has a solid year next year (after his "redshirt"). They will all be under contract, except K'Wuan, who will be entering FA. T.Williams will also be entering FA, and I kind of just assume he'd be the one to go.

 

That would leave us with 5 guys (excluding Desir) under 30 that we can't all keep at a starting CB contract. At least one goes.

 

But you're right, I did say 2016 in my original post. My bad.

I am not sure that they should all be asking for starting CB money....if they are not starters.

Maybe they think they can go elsewhere for more I guess.

I guess pride falls before the almighty dollar.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I am not sure that they should all be asking for starting CB money....if they are not starters.

Maybe they think they can go elsewhere for more I guess.

I guess pride falls before the almighty dollar.

 

As is often the case - especially in this market. K'Wuan's contract year is 2016, Gilbert's is 2017, Ifo's is 2018 and Haden's is 2019. A general rule of thumb for young underpaid players is that you try to lock them down before their contract year - so they don't play lights out, get a big head, and test the market for an overpaying team.

 

CB's have inflated contracts and, the more the NFL transitions to the passing game, the higher those contracts will go. Having two top notch starting caliber CB's is going to eat up $18-$25 mil a year in cap room.

 

As it stands right now, we're already in the top 5 in CB spending - 14% of our cap is tied up in CB's. Haden is pulling in 12 mil this year against the cap. Tramon is pulling in an additional 7 mil. Gilbert counts another $3 mil. K'Wuan, who is likely our day one nickel CB, is luckily on his UDFA contract and is only counting 510k against the cap.

 

If K'Wuan has even a decent year as a starting nickel, I would expect him to get some sort of salary negotiation consideration from the FA. If they were smart, they'd lock him down this year if he proves to be worth it. I would value his contract somewhere in the 4 year/ $20 million range.

 

With Haden, Tramon, a resigned K'Wuan and Gilbert under contract for 2016, that will be roughly $26 mil against the cap between those four alone - enough to bump us into second in CB spending.

 

I can't imagine that we'd keep Tramon past his current contract, so someone will have to be groomed to replace him. That means that either Gilbert or Ifo will be getting significant spot duty in 2016 - my guess is on Gilbert. Then, based on the "sign a guy BEFORE his contract year rule of thumb" I like to abide, Gilbert would have to get some sort of extension or new contract in 2016. This would replace a departing Tramon's contract, so our cap hit should actually decrease by a few million with Tramon's departure.

 

Then we would go into 2017 with Haden, a resigned Gilbert, K'Wuan in his second year, and Ifo playing spot duty. If Ifo blows up, one of those contracts will likely have to be dumped. General GM logic would actually dictate that Haden's be dumped (oldest player, highest cap hit, least likely penalty) but that is a very touchy subject because Haden has been the one bright spot in a whole lot of Brown.

 

 

And...of course...none of this is factoring in Desir or any of the other current CB's we have that could prove to be diamonds in the rough.

[Mudfly]

I dont any reason not to keep most of these guys, other than money.....which is why we gotta be smart about who gets how much and not overreact every time a player has a good season.....which is why so many players are overpaid....

 

Now that we actually have top talent, it becomes a real tricky dance to keep em all under the cap.... and players who suddenly flash a good season instantly want to be paid like they did it every year....heck, some folks want us to pay Gipson 10 mil after one good season(and a blown knee), when we can have him for 2-3m......other folks wanted us to pay Cameron 7m, when he only had half of a good season in 4 yrs......overrating(and overpaying) players isn't a good thing(even if they might walk)

 

Bottom line, there are gonna be some tough negotiations coming up and some changing faces(like Cameron, Skrine, etc) in order to maintain a balance between quality players and the salary cap....otherwise we will continue to have a lot of average talent, coupled with a few overpaid stars......

 

Right now, I only see one player on our team who seems to be vastly overpaid and thats Desmond Bryant......hopefully Farmer sticks to his guns and keeps it that way......

[Tour2ma]

You want to draft potential and develop it. The more you succeed, the greater the ultimate financial pressure.

 

It's a great problem to have, but in the end you cannot keep them all so get what you can for some.

[Mudfly]

Yep....better to get something than just to cut them......or keep them over another need, just because they are good....

 

I count 18 DB's on the roster right now and last year we carried 10.....and just the familiar name guys will quickly fill that out....

 

Haden, Desir, Williams 1, Williams 2, Gilbert, Gaines and Olomu.....thats 7 CB's.....

 

Whitner, Gipson, Campbell, Poyer and Bademosi.....thats 5 safeties.....

 

For 2015, I see Olomu on some kind of injury list and either Poyer or Bademosi gone.....and 2016, after another year of watching Williams/Desir/Gilbert is when I see the good trade possibilities coming to light.....

 

So, do we trade a front line starter and get something good or do we trade a second stringer with potential for ????

[miktoxic]

 

So, do we trade a front line starter and get something good or do we trade a second stringer with potential for ????

 

real good question. maybe the question will be answered if some team all-of-a-sudden has a key injury to a player such as we did with mack last year? see how they progress and partner player and draft pick to move up next year? i dunno.

 

i can't think of any other team out there that has the depth and potential at DB than the browns do.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Yep....better to get something than just to cut them......or keep them over another need, just because they are good....

 

I count 18 DB's on the roster right now and last year we carried 10.....and just the familiar name guys will quickly fill that out....

 

Haden, Desir, Williams 1, Williams 2, Gilbert, Gaines and Olomu.....thats 7 CB's.....

 

Whitner, Gipson, Campbell, Poyer and Bademosi.....thats 5 safeties.....

 

For 2015, I see Olomu on some kind of injury list and either Poyer or Bademosi gone.....and 2016, after another year of watching Williams/Desir/Gilbert is when I see the good trade possibilities coming to light.....

 

So, do we trade a front line starter and get something good or do we trade a second stringer with potential for ????

.

 

Do you trade a Haden who is at the or just beyond his peak or a Williams who's ceiling might not yet be reached, but is still unknown?

 

The million dollar question.

 

Personally, I trade Haden if:

He's at or near 30.

He has a relatively high cap hit.

He's on the back end of his contract.

He's still constantly mentioned in conversation of "top" players, but he's not the top player.

He can warrant at least a first round pick in a trade.

There is solid depth behind him.

 

If all of those criteria are met, then I'd say trade Haden. That's what it would take for me to trade him - depth, at least a first round pick, and two-three mid level starters of cap room space.

[miktoxic]

trading haden sounds blasphemous to me, but when all is said and done it IS still a biz.

 

just give him a couple more years to at least be here when the browns actually become contenders.

 

imagine guys like thomas and haden who have played their entire careers here, get traded and then the browns become perennial playoff contenders/winners? talk about suck.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

trading haden sounds blasphemous to me, but when all is said and done it IS still a biz.

 

just give him a couple more years to at least be here when the browns actually become contenders.

 

imagine guys like thomas and haden who have played their entire careers here, get traded and then the browns become perennial playoff contenders/winners? talk about suck.

Haden and Thomas are the only two Browns I would never consider trading unless it's absolutely, 100% a landslide deal in Cleveland's favor.

 

For Thomas, right now, it would require at least three first round picks plus a legitimate starter or high-ceiling young player.

For Haden, right now, it would require at least two first round picks, a mid round pick, plus a legitimate starter.

 

And even that's stretching it for me.

 

However, three or four years from now...that price will likely come down. If Cleveland isn't in any sort of position to win in, say, 2018 or so...I'd look to trade The Above Average Joe's to contenders. It's the least we could do. We'd recoup some value by way of future players, they'd get a chance at a ring, their new teams get solid, dependable, talented players.

[Tour2ma]

Yup... no one is "off the table" beyond discussing in a trade IF you can clearly see his heir on the roster.

 

While Haden's heir is easier to see, the candidates are still just possibilities.

 

Joe's heir may not have even been born yet...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Yup... no one is "off the table" beyond discussing in a trade IF you can clearly see his heir on the roster.

 

While Haden's heir is easier to see, the candidates are still just possibilities.

 

Joe's heir may not have even been born yet...

 

I'd love for Joe to play at the same level for the next 21 years.

[jrb12711]

Haden and Thomas are the only two Browns I would never consider trading unless it's absolutely, 100% a landslide deal in Cleveland's favor.

 

For Thomas, right now, it would require at least three first round picks plus a legitimate starter or high-ceiling young player.

For Haden, right now, it would require at least two first round picks, a mid round pick, plus a legitimate starter.

 

And even that's stretching it for me.

 

However, three or four years from now...that price will likely come down. If Cleveland isn't in any sort of position to win in, say, 2018 or so...I'd look to trade The Above Average Joe's to contenders. It's the least we could do. We'd recoup some value by way of future players, they'd get a chance at a ring, their new teams get solid, dependable, talented players.

 

God I just want Joe Thomas to experience a winning, playoff team with Cleveland before his time is up. There isn't a better dude in the NFL and that man deserves to know the feeling of playoff football (of course we all do).