Mike H Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Washed up would imply lacking skills and no longer useful. Haden would be picked up by any other NFL team and excel. Washed up ? GTFOHWTBS ! You're right, he's a good player and can play in the NFL, but he hasn't lived up to his billing as an "elite" cornerback. "Shutdown" or "lockdown" never, save a game or two against AJ Green that his name is still living off to this day (don't forget that one game he shut down Calvin Johnson on one knee!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 If we glorify players based on what they've done rather Han what they're doing, we don't deserve to win. If he turns it around, hey I'm psyched. But, until he does, I have a right to question his play. Same with any of the other 52 players we have. Glorify vs support...there is a difference... And, sure, you can question anyone anytime....thats your right....Im just showing that we've went down this same road last year and all the whiners were wrong then.... I just think its kind of fast for someone who's produced the whole time he's been here....lots of other players who aren't even close to Haden in production, who are more deserving of this, I guess.... So, as things go here, the plan will be to go after all players who have a bad game or 2.....way to support your team man!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Glorify vs support...there is a difference... And, sure, you can question anyone anytime....thats your right....Im just showing that we've went down this same road last year and all the whiners were wrong then.... I just think its kind of fast for someone who's produced the whole time he's been here....lots of other players who aren't even close to Haden in production, who are more deserving of this, I guess.... So, as things go here, the plan will be to go after all players who have a bad game or 2.....way to support your team man!!!! What exactly did you show, other than Haden was inconsistent last year (and he was pretty bad the year before)? I don't see what you're talking about. Has nothing to do with "supporting" the Browns, we're trying to objectively look at a football team. Just because you don't choose to do that, doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to enjoy their team in that way. Joe Haden is and has been overrated for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 What exactly did you show, other than Haden was inconsistent last year (and he was pretty bad the year before)? I don't see what you're talking about. Has nothing to do with "supporting" the Browns, we're trying to objectively look at a football team. Just because you don't choose to do that, doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to enjoy their team in that way. Joe Haden is and has been overrated for awhile. I showed that he was bad the first 3 games last year.....and showed people bitched and moaned then.....and I showed he then played great and made the Pro Bowl...and I showed the people all changed their tune....(so, that is what I was talking about) I dont know you from Adam, but Im usually fairly objective....and try to be a more pragmatic voice when evaluating players....which means not too far either way....like completely freaking out when someone plays a few bad games....I dont see how knee jerk reactions are "enjoyable" and they definitely dont = objective....though they are very common here.... Does overrated = washed up....?.....Cause I said he was a good player(and so did you....2 posts back)....so, how is it being objective to say a good player is washed up or suddenly turned to crap, based only on a few games....? And I definitely didnt say y'all cant enjoy tearing players down....have at it bub....there are 20 neg head thread going right now and I aint stopping any of them....just remember I have an equal right to post my opinions too.....even if they dont meet yours.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted September 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Glorify vs support...there is a difference... And, sure, you can question anyone anytime....thats your right....Im just showing that we've went down this same road last year and all the whiners were wrong then.... I just think its kind of fast for someone who's produced the whole time he's been here....lots of other players who aren't even close to Haden in production, who are more deserving of this, I guess.... So, as things go here, the plan will be to go after all players who have a bad game or 2.....way to support your team man!!!! Support != relentless adoration. I can support Haden and still call him out when he's garbage. I can support a family member and still tell him he's an insufferable douchebag failure. If I didn't "support" him, I wouldn't give a fuck how good or bad he was. I couldn't tell you the exact production of Xavier Rhodes compared to last year, because I don't support Minnesota. The "plan" is to discuss the Browns and how they are playing - good or bad. Haden, right now, is bad. Kruger, right now is bad. The only good I'm seeing, right now, is Shelton and Starks, because they are both being asked to play 2-gap while our inside linebackers aren't doing shit to fill, leaving Shelton and Starks to both occupy AND attempt to make a play at the line. Haden's troubles can be directly attributed to this, yes. However, he looked absolutely outmatched on Sunday regardless of the pass rush, which is making me question how "elite" he is. A good corner, sure. Elite, I'm not positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Support != relentless adoration. I can support Haden and still call him out when he's garbage. ........A good corner, sure. Elite, I'm not positive. Like I already said....you can say whatever you want.....(but im allowed to counter, right?)..... Though, Id point out that "good corner, not elite".... doesnt equal washed up..... And Im game to say he hasnt played well....hell, most of the team isnt playing well.....but Im not down with instantly declaring them shit because of it(and thats not adoration)..... But, hey, maybe your right.....maybe Haden completely sucks all of a sudden....we should just cut chase and move on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 EXACTLY what Mud said below. Mike H has been known to do that so much in the past - he screwed up the board with the arrogant knee jerk hate analysis crap of his. Joe Haden just so happens to be one of the very best cb's in the NFL, and the entire NFL knows it. And x-rays often don't show minute fractures - that's why he apparently is going to have an MRI. http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/28/cleveland-browns-joe-haden-rib-injury-undergo-mri?xid=si_nfl You were washed up around here once, Mike H. And Mike H. - you're no Joe Haden with a rib injury. I showed that he was bad the first 3 games last year.....and showed people bitched and moaned then.....and I showed he then played great and made the Pro Bowl...and I showed the people all changed their tune....(so, that is what I was talking about) I dont know you from Adam, but Im usually fairly objective....and try to be a more pragmatic voice when evaluating players....which means not too far either way....like completely freaking out when someone plays a few bad games....I dont see how knee jerk reactions are "enjoyable" and they definitely dont = objective....though they are very common here.... Does overrated = washed up....?.....Cause I said he was a good player(and so did you....2 posts back)....so, how is it being objective to say a good player is washed up or suddenly turned to crap, based only on a few games....? And I definitely didnt say y'all cant enjoy tearing players down....have at it bub....there are 20 neg head thread going right now and I aint stopping any of them....just remember I have an equal right to post my opinions too.....even if they dont meet yours.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Support != relentless adoration. I can support Haden and still call him out when he's garbage. I can support a family member and still tell him he's an insufferable douchebag failure TCPO ************************************************** well, isn't the obvious question - if your family member fell off a ladder, and broke ribs?... and tried to bowl that night, and was an excellent bowler... you dismiss them as a failure and garbage? Come on, man ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 I showed that he was bad the first 3 games last year.....and showed people bitched and moaned then.....and I showed he then played great and made the Pro Bowl...and I showed the people all changed their tune....(so, that is what I was talking about) I dont know you from Adam, but Im usually fairly objective....and try to be a more pragmatic voice when evaluating players....which means not too far either way....like completely freaking out when someone plays a few bad games....I dont see how knee jerk reactions are "enjoyable" and they definitely dont = objective....though they are very common here.... Does overrated = washed up....?.....Cause I said he was a good player(and so did you....2 posts back)....so, how is it being objective to say a good player is washed up or suddenly turned to crap, based only on a few games....? And I definitely didnt say y'all cant enjoy tearing players down....have at it bub....there are 20 neg head thread going right now and I aint stopping any of them....just remember I have an equal right to post my opinions too.....even if they dont meet yours.... Played great is an opinion. The Pro Bowl is not the best measure of success. He had a poor 2013 season too, if you remember. It's not knee-jerk for me to say Haden is overrated, because I've been saying it for two years. Like you said, you don't know me or my opinion on him, but now you do. I wouldn't consider him washed up, because I think he'll even out and have another "good" but not "great" season. Complaining != criticizing. America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkid3 Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Really? Some of these threads in here. Has one bad game and he's washed up. Wr are going to catch footballs. He will be washed up when he falls outta top 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 If Haden is suddenly washed up , it wouldnt be the first time...(I wonder about the MRI) but just for shits n giggles.. I think we all remember how quickly Carlos Baerga fizzled. I was thinking maybe Haden smoked a little too much pot the night before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Played great is an opinion(yes it is....am I allowed?...or just you). The Pro Bowl is not the best measure of success. He had a poor 2013 season too, if you remember.(no, I dont remember that) It's not knee-jerk for me to say Haden is overrated(didnt say it was....said it was knee jerk to declare him washed up....pay attention), because I've been saying it for two years(well, arent you the bees knees). Like you said, you don't know me or my opinion on him, but now you do.(never asked and dont care...and now you know too) I wouldn't consider him washed up, because I think he'll even out and have another "good" but not "great" season.(which was my whole point that you just chose to debate...keep up the good work!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted September 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Like I already said....you can say whatever you want.....(but im allowed to counter, right?)..... Though, Id point out that "good corner, not elite".... doesnt equal washed up..... And Im game to say he hasnt played well....hell, most of the team isnt playing well.....but Im not down with instantly declaring them shit because of it(and thats not adoration)..... But, hey, maybe your right.....maybe Haden completely sucks all of a sudden....we should just cut chase and move on..... Washed up, to me, is when you're being paid more than your worth. Haden is currently being paid what some people would call "the fourth highest average contract for CB's" but is currently ranked what some would call "121st" in passes defended. Slow start? I'd say so. The NFL is a business, and when you're overpaid/underperforming, you're hurting the team in more ways than one. 3 games does not a trend make, but after 6 or 7, those talks should probably start gaining some traction. EXACTLY what Mud said below. Mike H has been known to do that so much in the past - he screwed up the board with the arrogant knee jerk hate analysis crap of his. Joe Haden just so happens to be one of the very best cb's in the NFL, and the entire NFL knows it. And x-rays often don't show minute fractures - that's why he apparently is going to have an MRI. http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/28/cleveland-browns-joe-haden-rib-injury-undergo-mri?xid=si_nfl You were washed up around here once, Mike H. And Mike H. - you're no Joe Haden with a rib injury. I wouldn't say "very best in the NFL". Maybe one of the top 8, sometimes top 5. Currently top 121. Support != relentless adoration. I can support Haden and still call him out when he's garbage. I can support a family member and still tell him he's an insufferable douchebag failure TCPO ************************************************** well, isn't the obvious question - if your family member fell off a ladder, and broke ribs?... and tried to bowl that night, and was an excellent bowler... you dismiss them as a failure and garbage? Come on, man ! If I were paying him $11 million this year and $50 million over the next 4 years after that, and there was another good bowler on my team who has consistently played just as good as him throughout his career and is currently playing better than him, and there were other good, young bowlers on my team that were sat because this guy HAD to bowl, and he was never necessarily "excellent" to begin with but just decently above average with some glimpses of excellence, and I could move him to another team in exchange for the chance to draft another good bowler for much cheaper...yeah, I would have to contemplate "dismiss"ing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Name a better CB than Haden that is currently on the roster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Washed up, to me, is when you're being paid more than your worth. Haden is currently being paid what some people would call "the fourth highest average contract for CB's" but is currently ranked what some would call "121st" in passes defended. Slow start? I'd say so. The NFL is a business, and when you're overpaid/underperforming, you're hurting the team in more ways than one. 3 games does not a trend make, but after 6 or 7, those talks should probably start gaining some traction. Fair enough....though Id say most players get paid "after they perform".....had he left 2 years ago because we chose NOT to pay him, what would you have said then? My whole point was I simply felt this thread was too soon and a bit misguided.....and would agree that 6-7 games would have been more appropriate...... So, now weve gone from washed up after 3 games... to....."good player, but not elite"....and 7 games is a fairer measure.....right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Name a better CB than Haden that is currently on the roster? Right now? Based upon these 3 games only?......Traymon Williams......Kwaun Williams...... But, if THEY played on another team....how many would trade Haden straight up for either right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 You're right, he's a good player and can play in the NFL, but he hasn't lived up to his billing as an "elite" cornerback. "Shutdown" or "lockdown" never, save a game or two against AJ Green that his name is still living off to this day (don't forget that one game he shut down Calvin Johnson on one knee!). Ah... two or three anecdotal "elite" games are discountable, but one anecdotal, poor play vs. Cecil Shorts is valid in justifying a two-year position... MikeH!=irony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Fair enough....though Id say most players get paid "after they perform".....had he left 2 years ago because we chose NOT to pay him, what would you have said then? Beat me to it... I'd only add that you pay to secure your top talent... and if you're signing that talent to be a building block in CLE, then you even have to pay a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Right now? Based upon these 3 games only?......Traymon Williams......Kwaun Williams...... But, if THEY played on another team....how many would trade Haden straight up for either right now? True, but just because a player has a good game doesn't necessarily make him a better player. How many #1 WR's will the Williams boys line up against this season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 True, but just because a player has a good game doesn't necessarily make him a better player. How many #1 WR's will the Williams boys line up against this season? Ha!....Im with ya 100% CD..... I get that Haden takes the Superstar WR every single game.....I understand he plays man coverage every time and gets no help.....and I also get that he is our #1 CB and, possibly, one of the top 2-3 players on this team..... And, I also get that he has played poorly the first 3 games(along with just about everyone else)......just dont think it means he's done, cause its happened before(like last year)........ That was my one simple point.....that apparently I was wrong to put out there.....cause it's "enjoyable"(quote) to speculate about Joes demise, whilst it's uncool to offer history that he might just get it together(like last year).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagitron Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Expect last week you played the Rams.... Two weeks ago you played kaep..... For me last week was the niners, this week at the time of your lost was the Rams. You do realize the steelers play a 34 right? You also realize Heyward gets doubled a lot as well right? Typically in a 34 the defensive end occupies blockers to get the linebackers free. The Steelers just switched to a one gal which allows defensive ends to rush the qb more specifically. Heyward is being doubled, tuitt is doing the damage. Pretty soon Heyward won't be able to be doubled because Tuitt is tearing it up. Either way Heyward is a terrific 34 end and the Steelers extended him as a result. If you are going to pick on a steeler at least target a player open for legit critique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 For me last week was the niners, this week at the time of your lost was the Rams. You do realize the steelers play a 34 right? You also realize Heyward gets doubled a lot as well right? Typically in a 34 the defensive end occupies blockers to get the linebackers free. The Steelers just switched to a one gal which allows defensive ends to rush the qb more specifically. Heyward is being doubled, tuitt is doing the damage. Pretty soon Heyward won't be able to be doubled because Tuitt is tearing it up. Either way Heyward is a terrific 34 end and the Steelers extended him as a result. If you are going to pick on a steeler at least target a player open for legit critique. Stooler Trolls......so stupid they cant even reply to the right thread..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted September 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Name a better CB than Haden that is currently on the roster? Tramon Williams, K'Wuan Williams. There's two. Interestingly enough - I found a tool last week that compared physical aspects and career performance - and Haden's closest match was Tramon. Let me see if I can find it later. Fair enough....though Id say most players get paid "after they perform".....had he left 2 years ago because we chose NOT to pay him, what would you have said then? My whole point was I simply felt this thread was too soon and a bit misguided.....and would agree that 6-7 games would have been more appropriate...... So, now weve gone from washed up after 3 games... to....."good player, but not elite"....and 7 games is a fairer measure.....right? Absolutely. I just wanted to create the thread so that, in 4 weeks, I may be able to say "I told you so." Right now? Based upon these 3 games only?......Traymon Williams......Kwaun Williams...... But, if THEY played on another team....how many would trade Haden straight up for either right now? I'd probably make the Tramon/Haden trade if only for cap purposes. It's a business, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagitron Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Stooler Trolls......so stupid they cant even reply to the right thread..... Um I've had a back and forth with Columbus king in THIS thread. It's not hard to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Absolutely. I just wanted to create the thread so that, in 4 weeks, I may be able to say "I told you so." Ha!....Ill give you that one.... ....(and, of course, I now have that same option) Um I've had a back and forth with Columbus king in THIS thread. It's not hard to follow. And Ill give you that one too....(have you trolls blocked so it's pretty easy to miss your posts)........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Says the old fart Correction-the rational thinking old fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkid3 Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Saying a paquetes is washed up after 3 games. Haha. Pathetic. Haden is still out best corner stop being delusional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted September 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Saying a paquetes is washed up after 3 games. Haha. Pathetic. Haden is still out best corner stop being delusional He's actually our third best this year...if that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Some sarcasm doesn't need the salmon pink font... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Correction-the rational thinking old fart. Amen brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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