Hearing August 1st Josh Gordon Troubles

[miktoxic]

the NFL is under soooo much scrutiny right now that they could go either way.

 

everyone is screaming that they let rice off WAAAAAAAAY too EASY, from the female fans, to morning national news......the NFL has been getting bashed BIG TIME. so they could use this case to say SEE, WE DO MEAN BIZ and suspend him for the year w/o even a whisper from the kid's lawyers. BUT THEN they not only risk the weed vs. domestic violence debate from everyone from keith olberman to bill o'reilly, besides the HUGE amount of backlash from the browns fans across the globe.

 

this decision, along with IRSAY's (which i've stated many times before is the real leverage gordon has here) is going to be HUGE. all other suspensions before this will seem irrelevant. this is going to stick in people's craw for years to come.

 

goodell better think really hard because the wrong decision and his popularity plummets through the floors of NFL hdqtrs.

[thenew23]

thenew23..are you a probation officer?

Addiction counselor. I am a member of the local Drug Court team, and have had many clients involved with probation... as you could probably imagine

[Tour2ma]

Fact of the matter is that he needs to keep better company.

Once your "old friends" behaviors start costing you money you have incentive for a new set of friends.

 

I'd say the answer to that is his Lawyers

I'd say I overlooked the obvious...

[miktoxic]

Addiction counselor. I am a member of the local Drug Court team, and have had many clients involved with probation... as you could probably imagine

i know it's off topic, but what in is the biggest prob in ohio right now as far as drugs and their addiction?.......

 

the prescription pain medication i.e. oxycodone etc.? just had a big write up in our westchester news about the growing heroin problem. guess it's cheaper than crack now.

[Tour2ma]

 

Per rules of the league's substance-abuse policy, the "B" bottle doesn't need to show a violation, only that the substance found in the other bottle is evident to the "limits of detection."

 

Makes me curious as to what the detection limit is. Could be low single digits.

 

Also of interest from a test protocol standpoint would be the limit of quantification which can be much higher than the detection limit.

 

Second, you cannot get THC in your system by making out with someone who smoked.

 

To me, this is a full-year ban OR nothing type of ruling. Any other ruling would be non-sensical... but it's the NFL so I'm sure they'll come up with something dumb...

Thank you and agree... I fear Goodell is going to do something completely illogical...

[sisky fringo]

he definitely has a stronger case than when we heard his plane was late and he simply missed it by no-show.

 

this is one of those times when i hope they are sympathetic to his cause and aren't irritated by his continued violations, regardless of thresholds or what fans might find trivial.

 

to the fans, the impact an emotionally influenced or heavy-handed decision bringing a long suspension would have, would no doubt be absolutely devastating. he is a main offensive cog and as the #1 WR--and largest offensive threat on the field by both production and simply occupying DB's attention--it goes far beyond inconvenience bordering crippling the entire season.

 

i don't know what the minimum is in stage three--i think a year--but he's already in that stage so it's not like he can expect to get stage 2 penalties like a 4 game suspension.

 

i agree with others, it should either be all or nothing. i think sherman had no priors influencing his 2 game penalty, so no reason to expect something that light. not to forget, he also won. im leaning year.

 

BUT. if he were only gone...

 

nevermind. screw it.

 

why even speculate. he coulda easily been here all 16--which is definitely not happening now--and we wouldn't even be having this conversation on like page frickin 19...

 

can u imagine how good we'd be feeling rt now if this never happened? not if bottles "A" and "B" were swapped. if it never happened AT ALL. that .500+ season fantasy could be happening right now. without him and no receiver help? 4-12/5-11??

 

so the next time anyone is mad at the press for dragging him through the gutters or fans upset by this, don't forget to give Josh his share of the responsibility.

 

how would you feel if you had made a rash bet for $1K earlier this year w ur shit-talking Pukeburg loving father-in-law that Josh was going to have another 1000+ yard season? uhhhh yeah. i didn't, but my friend did.

 

still all warm and fuzzy? im thinking not. i bet pretty sick. even if the suspension was only half a season/8 games...still no chance. but oh well at least it's not me. it's only my fucking season that i've waited like 10 months for...

 

on the flip-side, would i pay 1K rt now today if it somehow guaranteed the Browns in the playoffs? in a second. and i bet nearly every Browns fan w a savings acct would too...if it were legal that is. like if all that was stopping our kids from doing big things was having the right coach would we shell out to Boosters?? hell yeah we would. whatever it took. we pay just ridiculous amounts to helplessly watch, if financial contribution somehow improved our ability to win?? i think we'd ALL chip in something. so i look at it like that. he lost a grand on a stupid bet. we lost a good chance at something worth way more than 1K to me. way more.

 

selfish.

clam-baking.

dick.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

i know it's off topic, but what in is the biggest prob in ohio right now as far as drugs and their addiction?.......

 

the prescription pain medication i.e. oxycodone etc.? just had a big write up in our westchester news about the growing heroin problem. guess it's cheaper than crack now.

In Cleveland area Heroin seems to be a major problem, with a lot of OD's from it.

[Kosar_For_President]

And lastly, Gordon's attorneys also will point out that with their client being subject to over 70 drug tests, there was only one time since his rookie year that a test came back positive for marijuana, and even then, the "A" and "B" samples did not match.

[Kosar_For_President]

A comment from a lab tech.

 

I think GORDON WILL WIN HIS APPEAL.... this is why-- Gordon's drug test was a SPLIT test. This means that the urine was collected into one cup and then poured off into 2 separate vials. This is done for the donor's protection in case they want to call for a re-test. "Bottle A" was tested and came back above cut-off. At that point, I'm sure the results were protested, so they went ahead and processed "Bottle B" and saw that it was below cut-off. Drug testing in the workplace and Department Of Transportation (DOT drug testing, which is the highest regulated in our nation) says that if Bottle B comes back below the cutoff, then the sample is deemed NEGATIVE even if the first bottle (Bottle A) was positive.

For this reason, I believe Gordon will win his appeal. It wasn't because the 2 bottles had 2 different levels as stated in the article. In fact, the article makes it sound like the reason that was even brought up was to say that something was tampered with and bottles were switched around. Fact is, a sample done on a split collection can definitely show 2 different readings. I confirmed this with my lab manager who has been in the forensic drug testing field for 20+ years.

[The Gipper]

The more interesting thing is that the "level" at which a failed test is set is that 15 nanogram level.

 

Where by comparison an Air Traffic Controller would have to have a 50 ng level to fail a piss test.

Now, last time I looked, Air Traffic Controller have the lives of thousands of people daily in their hands. Why would their level be so much higher than that of an entertainer? A guy who provides fun for us to watch compared to people that protect our lives?

Absurd.

 

Perhaps even more absurd is that Olympic Athletes must have like a 175 ng level to be considered a failed test.

 

Now.....why was the level for NFL players set at such a lower level than for other athletes and people with lives in their hands.

[StocktonShorts]

WADA is 150ng for a fail.

Anything in sports that are below what the World Anti Doping Agency sets for a pass/fail is ridiculous. NFLs level for a fail is 10 times below WADA. That has to change.

[The Gipper]

WADA is 150ng for a fail.

 

Anything in sports that are below what the World Anti Doping Agency sets for a pass/fail is ridiculous. NFLs level for a fail is 10 times below WADA. That has to change.

Agreed. And I suggest it certainly will under the next collective bargaining agreement.....not that it does Gordon any good now.

[StocktonShorts]

Now is it to be understood that Gordons suspension will be entire year or nothing? No 8 game possibility? The way I've read in some articles they indicate that if the NFL sticks to the A sample results than it's an automatic 1 year suspension and there room for negotiation. However if they deem the sample isn't conclusive then it has to be zero games because then he has not failed a test.

Is that everyone else's understanding as well?

[miktoxic]

if it's strictly by the book......he's gone for the year. if the NFL decides to hear the 'second-hand smoke' argument and they weigh in the fact that both that test and his DUI BAC level were barely over the limit then they might be a tad more lenient as in 8 games.

 

if they rock gordon and let off irsay with a slap on the wrist, considering what the public outcry has been about the lack of punishment to ray rice........all hell will break loose up in this joint.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

if it's strictly by the book......he's gone for the year. if the NFL decides to hear the 'second-hand smoke' argument and they weigh in the fact that both that test and his DUI BAC level were barely over the limit then they might be a tad more lenient as in 8 games.

 

if they rock gordon and let off irsay with a slap on the wrist, considering what the public outcry has been about the lack of punishment to ray rice........all hell will break loose up in this joint.

Cleveland could end up like this maybe?

 

[Westside Steve]

I personally feel a whole lot better about the whole situation knowing what the numbers are. There really is a very reasonable doubt.

It sure would be nice to see the charges just dropped. It has nothing to do with whether or not you think weed is good for you.

WSS

[StocktonShorts]

I'd be interested to know what directly smoking weed registers as? My understanding is if you smoke roughly 30 days before taking a test (presumably a test with a stronger threshold than 15ng) you'd probably fail the test.

If I'm not mistaken a poppy seed bagel will cause you to fail a stronger test than the one the NFL has, so how far back would he have to have smoked for the lever to only be 16ng?

Seems like theres a lot of holes in this testing process.

[Axe]

This will be unpopular... But reading thru this I can't help but wonder how different a lot of the attitudes late in this thread would be if Josh Gordon were a Bengal..

[Frenchie]

I know the hearing is Aug1 but I wonder as Browns fans (and media) if we should more vocal in expressing our view that Gordon cannot be suspended based on these results. Maybe we all go to NFL headquarters and throw beer bottles at the doors?

[Zombo]

I know the hearing is Aug1 but I wonder as Browns fans (and media) if we should more vocal in expressing our view that Gordon cannot be suspended based on these results. Maybe we all go to NFL headquarters and throw beer bottles at the doors?

 

#FreeJoshGordon is taking over Twatter.

 

Zombo

[Axe]

Maybe we all go to NFL headquarters and throw beer bottles at the doors?

 

 

As an aside and not really related but this post reminded me of it..

 

I don't know how many of you have been to an NFL camp this yr but the NFL has instituted a new policy.. When you buy a bottle of ANYTHING at an NFL venue, you will no longer get to keep and use the CAP... I was given a number of reasons for this. Among them being "Fans that fill the plastic bottles with urine, cap em and throw them at players".. (Thanks Oakland ) So, I guess ya have to bring your own plastic bottle caps now.. Tis a fucked up society we live in

[Zombo]

The NFL's threshold level of weed is lower than Airline pilots.

 

Airline pilots.

 

I read someone say "would you rather have a son that smoked pot three times or beat his girlfriend once?" What kind of message is the league sending out?

 

This rule is fucking ridiculous and Goodell needs to stand up and admit it.

 

I will be at the Ravens game Week 3 and if Rice is playing and Gordon isn't a message needs to be sent to the NFL.

 

Z

[thenew23]

i know it's off topic, but what in is the biggest prob in ohio right now as far as drugs and their addiction?.......

 

the prescription pain medication i.e. oxycodone etc.? just had a big write up in our westchester news about the growing heroin problem. guess it's cheaper than crack now.

Before 2010, Ohio had the worst prescribing habits in the entire country with regards to opioids. We had a HUGE oxycodone problem which resulted in tons of deaths and addiction-related issues.

 

In 2010, new legislation was passed that placed harsh restrictions on prescribers and the drug Oxycontin was reformulated to prevent abuse via IV. Those things, combined with cheaper price and availability of heroin have led to a state-wide heroin epidemic.

 

In 2013, you were at higher risk for a drug overdose if you lived in a "rural" county. Heroin is not only the biggest problem, but it is no longer an inner-city problem, it is a problem for everybody. Research predicts that before the end of 2014, all Ohioans will personally know somebody with a heroin-related problem.

[thenew23]

I'd be interested to know what directly smoking weed registers as? My understanding is if you smoke roughly 30 days before taking a test (presumably a test with a stronger threshold than 15ng) you'd probably fail the test.

 

If I'm not mistaken a poppy seed bagel will cause you to fail a stronger test than the one the NFL has, so how far back would he have to have smoked for the lever to only be 16ng?

 

Seems like theres a lot of holes in this testing process.

Typically 250+ if a person used in the last 24 hours. 500+ if a person is a chronic user or used a large amount. In my professional opinion, a test at 16 is either "trace" amounts from a person who hasnt used since 30+ days ago, or second hand smoke inhaled within the past 24 hours.

 

The levels are never exact science because all individuals bodies are different.

 

As far as poppy seeds, yes they would produce a positive test... for opiates... not thc... Gotta get your drugs straight...

[slowburn]

Now.....why was the level for NFL players set at such a lower level than for other athletes and people with lives in their hands.

NFLPA contract language re abused drugs toxicology included aggressive limits suggesting the league has at last become more proactive in their "war on drugs"

 

It may be they have decided to reform a policy component that effectively gave players significant notification of pending tests allowing them to study and get smart before the big

 

day, and, took away any privacy the players had enjoyed befpre to tamper with their samples.

[hoorta]

A comment from a lab tech.

 

I think GORDON WILL WIN HIS APPEAL.... this is why-- Gordon's drug test was a SPLIT test. This means that the urine was collected into one cup and then poured off into 2 separate vials. This is done for the donor's protection in case they want to call for a re-test. "Bottle A" was tested and came back above cut-off. At that point, I'm sure the results were protested, so they went ahead and processed "Bottle B" and saw that it was below cut-off. Drug testing in the workplace and Department Of Transportation (DOT drug testing, which is the highest regulated in our nation) says that if Bottle B comes back below the cutoff, then the sample is deemed NEGATIVE even if the first bottle (Bottle A) was positive.

 

For this reason, I believe Gordon will win his appeal. It wasn't because the 2 bottles had 2 different levels as stated in the article. In fact, the article makes it sound like the reason that was even brought up was to say that something was tampered with and bottles were switched around. Fact is, a sample done on a split collection can definitely show 2 different readings. I confirmed this with my lab manager who has been in the forensic drug testing field for 20+ years.

 

I've been a Medical Technologist for a long time- I've never done Forensic Toxicology, but I know plenty about the instrumentation used in it. His lawyers should be asking what's the accuracy and reproducibility at those levels? If it was the same sample and was split- they should be damn close- not almost 2 ng different. To my mind- that's enough to toss the case out.

 

Typically 250+ if a person used in the last 24 hours. 500+ if a person is a chronic user or used a large amount. In my professional opinion, a test at 16 is either "trace" amounts from a person who hasnt used since 30+ days ago, or second hand smoke inhaled within the past 24 hours.

 

The levels are never exact science because all individuals bodies are different.

 

As far as poppy seeds, yes they would produce a positive test... for opiates... not thc... Gotta get your drugs straight...

 

Hmmm, if Josh was tooling around in his car with his pals and they were toking up a storm for an hour- I can certainly buy his second hand smoke argument. He needs to stay away- far away from those guys. I think having passed 50+ tests, and voluntarily checking into rehab will help his case.

 

Plus if they give Gordon a year for a level that truck drivers, airline pilots, and Olympic athletes would pass- and Ray Rice gets two games for cold-cocking his fiancee, there's going to be a shit storm.

[StocktonShorts]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/30/gordons-appeal-is-indeed-all-or-nothing/

Turns out it is all or nothing.

No reduction possible according to whoever PFT talked to.

16 games or Zero games, and the NFL already said Gordon will be held accountable for what is in his body. From that the tea leaves don't look great.

[Frenchie]

Can we start a poll on how many days Gordon will get? I'm not a lawyer but the NFL has a weak position in this case. The strike two was questionable given his prescription for cough syrup. Now, strike 3 with a sample that is marginally above at best? I'm going to say 6-8 games at most, and only because of his continued behavior.

[Vagitron]

I hope you have more "substantial research." I read that article and a study with only 21 paricipants with no significant statistical outcomes is not exactly a convincing way to try and change how we treat pain.

 

I know marijuana has some benefits but the long-term side efffects are still just as bad, if not worse, than other medications, particularly for athletes.

1. It 110 percent treats pain. It's unarguable.

2. Long term side effects? Unless you are smoking massive amounts of marijuana what side effects exactly do you believe exist? If you vape it you aren't even getting the smoke.

3. Beyond the already widely established medicinal uses tied to pain and nausea. Its been shown to help with the slowing of cognitive deterioration and in a few scientifically founded clinical trials slow the metastasis of some aggressive cancers or stop it all together.

 

Once the fda takes it off schedule one the legalization lobby will have the funding and the fire power to really study and test its uses and effectiveness for all kinds of ailments. I've read and heard people trying to debunk it for its cancer kill properties but never for pain. You yourself may want to do a little more research.

[Vagitron]

 

I've been a Medical Technologist for a long time- I've never done Forensic Toxicology, but I know plenty about the instrumentation used in it. His lawyers should be asking what's the accuracy and reproducibility at those levels? If it was the same sample and was split- they should be damn close- not almost 2 ng different. To my mind- that's enough to toss the case out.

 

 

Hmmm, if Josh was tooling around in his car with his pals and they were toking up a storm for an hour- I can certainly buy his second hand smoke argument. He needs to stay away- far away from those guys. I think having passed 50+ tests, and voluntarily checking into rehab will help his case.

 

Plus if they give Gordon a year for a level that truck drivers, airline pilots, and Olympic athletes would pass- and Ray Rice gets two games for cold-cocking his fiancee, there's going to be a shit storm.

If this were Gordons first offense there would be a sh.it storm. Its his what 4th now? Obviously that's a pattern and with 4 "minor" violations the hammer is going to come down. Especially when you consider he was already in hot water and he got flagged again. If I knew I was under a microscope there is absolutely no way I'd even be around people smoking it. I wouldn't be in the same room, hell I wouldnt be in the same building. Its that level of both arrogance and ignorance that is going to get Gordon suspended for 16.