gftChris Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 Thought experiment time. At some point in the future, after we're all dead if it helps, suppose that there's only enough work for maybe 10% of the world's population. Farming - automated seeding, fertilizing, ploughing, harvesting etc. Maybe a few jobs still need to be done by hand. Food processing and packaging is mostly done machines now, in the future maybe this gets optimised to be all done by machines. Public transport is all automated and runs on electric from our ultra efficient solar/wind farms - still need some technicians to maintain them. Cars are all automated, so no need for taxi drivers? The main industries are now creative - designing new ways to entertain ourselves, new video games, more plays, films, musicals and the rest. But there's only a small percentage of the population with the talent to do that. Sports, also, only a small fraction. So in this utopia, what do people do? How do you earn money to go and see films or sports? Or should these be free? Should everyone work 5 hours a week doing the stuff that needs to be done, like working in restaurants & bars, or whatever, and take home full pay? Do you earn money to pay for food, or food stamps for everyone? And if you pay for food, where does the money go? Robot farmers don't need it! So, once technological advances have reached this point, what does society look like? I haven't thought about it anywhere near enough to reach a conclusion either way. I just find the concept that a capitalist paradise leads to technological breakthroughs that potentially enable a communist utopia highly amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 I feel like the main industry would be IT/Comp Sci/Electrical Engineering though. We'd also still need scientists and engineers to keep driving technology forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 I feel like the main industry would be IT/Comp Sci/Electrical Engineering though. We'd also still need scientists and engineers to keep driving technology forward. Forward to what end? If agricultural technology has reached a point where we can easily feed the world, if energy is being produced in abundance, what exactly are we advancing towards? Apart from, obviously, looking beyond this planet for habitats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 one would think that there would be a great need for entertainers musicians singers actors artists athletes and so forth to entertain the slugs. And doctors to keep the useless lumps of flesh alive longer and longer! And those people who entertain the masses will be placed on even higher pedestal then they are now! The common people will be killing each other for their 15 minutes of fame, especially with nothing else to do! And let's not forget the armed forces employed by those who love power which ironically includes, well, every fucking body. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 People will be fat, useless slugs. Laying around resembling the actual creature itself. Being fed, changed and entertained without having to actually move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 People will be fat, useless slugs. Laying around resembling the actual creature itself. Being fed, changed and entertained without having to actually move. Kinda there already. But does that mean society would be better off holding back some of its advances to make life 'harder' and make people appreciate what they have, as well as getting exercise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 Kinda there already. But does that mean society would be better off holding back some of its advances to make life 'harder' and make people appreciate what they have, as well as getting exercise? Yes kinda there already. Well especially when you consider the very poorest urban neighborhoods where even people living at we call the poverty level have color cable TV, food stamps, nearly free utilities, free public education,free cell phones, free healthcare and free public transportation. I wonder why then are those not the happiest places in the world?!WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 Actually I think the 'kinda there already' are in the ghetto's. Lazy, dependent population. The middle class work. The rich work. Saw an interesting video of all the bars in an predominantly black neighborhood letting out. They flooded a local Indian run convenience store and just ate/drank whatever they wanted in the store without paying, then left. After throwing their unpaid garbage on the floor of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 Presumably because of a lack of ability to escape the poverty, to do better than their parents - that's the dream, right? To rise above your birth station. I wonder to what degree there is an ingrained hating of 'the man' as well - in spite of all the free stuff they get, people living on benefits are always complaining about the government. Their parents, too, probably complained, and they were raised in a culture of hate. I wonder, also, how happy first generation immigrants are, when they arrive and get free stuff from the government, compared to the rape and genocide they fled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 Lack of ability to do better than their parents? After two three four five generations of welfare? Anyway in your utopia even if anybody wanted to better their lives how do you propose they do it? We only need 5% of the population to do anything so we can give free shit to the rest right? But ask yourself what people love... Like I said power and dominance. Those most fit a dominate the rest. Rape murder enslaved whatever you want to call it. The very few people who do anything will actually be almost gods and the masses will have almost no chance to join that rag. Holding sway over the rest of the proletariat will be about the only way to feel superior. Thank you science! WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 And I'd bet 1st generation immigrants from poverty stricken hell holes are probably happier here than there. The next generation didn't experience the hell hole so they don't give a shit. And those that did can prey upon the weak and soft members of society they have infiltrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browns149 Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I feel like the main industry would be IT/Comp Sci/Electrical Engineering though. We'd also still need scientists and engineers to keep driving technology forward. Kinda of like what happend in Terminator 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Space man. We have to look to get off the planet or we're doomed. DOOMED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browns149 Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Utopia to me would be......... LIve until 90 and not care about ANYTHING when they die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Forward to what end? If agricultural technology has reached a point where we can easily feed the world, if energy is being produced in abundance, what exactly are we advancing towards? Apart from, obviously, looking beyond this planet for habitats... Forward! Always forward! Technology could always be improved. Improved efficiency, new forms of food/energy, solving the new problems that would be created, exploring space, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXDawg Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Would virtual reality sex and/or male birth control be available? Without either, the sexual market will still be alive and well; with limited options people's intelligence would be spent on how to steal status, wealth in order to attract a smashing partner. What do women want? more. And as long as men are willing to try to obtain that in exchange for booty, a utopia is impossible. That's the market you need to consider more than anything. Is sex the root of all evil? or is it money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXDawg Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 EDIT DP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Just to be clear here, I'm not saying this is the perfect vision of the future. I'm saying that with technology advances making more people redundant, we seem to be heading towards a society where there will be high unemployment, with little demands for low-skilled jobs, and I'm just wondering what the pitfalls would be. Everyone seems to be in agreement that entertaining the great unwashed is going to be the biggest problem - so do we need to find 'jobs' that need doing? Do we halt the advances of technology to keep people in jobs? People will still want to travel the world, so they'll still need hotels and things, so people will still need to pay for things, so they'll still need an income. Or do they get 'travel credits' that allow them to travel wherever they like within a budget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Sure people would want to do a lot of shit, Chris! Personally I'd like to fuck Paula Abdul. Of course if 85 percent or more of the population is on the dole then I guess what they want is going to be beyond their means. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Well, I like to travel, and I spend my money and free time on travelling - I may even make it to Ohio one day - and currently I'm able to do that. I'm not convinced by your ability to knock boots with paula abdul. Or kereem abdul jabaar. Or even abdul from the shop. So, given that I currently have a legitimate ability to travel, and that ability might be taken away by advances in technology, should we hold back technology? Or maybe those travelling vouchers, or perhaps I get some token job that pays me some salary that I can spend on discretionary things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Where will you get that job chris? We don't need humans anymore remember? And who will pay for your traverage voucher? Yeah you and I like to spend our money that we earn to buy stuff we like. When we don't work anymore....? I completely understand that everybody is going to want more than the guy sitting next to them. just because you think it would be utopia doesnt change human nature. sure everybody loves free shit but everybody also wants to be better then the next guy. Nobody wants to be equals. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Perhaps I should put the name of the thread in quotations to make it clear that this isn't really my vision of utopia. And to be honest, I'm not so materialistic - I prefer travelling, as I said, over buying a new car or bigger house. But that's the question, if technology makes us all redundant, shouldn't we have all the extra free time to do exactly what we want? As for who pays - if we ever get to the point where intercontinental travel can be achieved quickly by vehicles using renewable energy then the transportation costs are negated by more efficient energy collecting. Then you just have the hotel and stuff to pay for. I hope you realise I'm, just spitballing here, thinking about the practicalities of a future that I'll never see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I completely understand what you're doing pal. I'm just tossing some shit back. Materialism or not traveling the world is something of a luxury that a lot of people would like to indulge in. For instance, we were just looking at a Viking River cruise. Didn't get too deeply into it but close to 4000 bucks and I'm not sure if that's each. I also just got an estimate for swimming pool which comes in around 30 K and doesn't include concrete electric or gas lines. But if 10 or 15 percent of the people are working to provide all the free shit I'd imagine they are being paid pretty well. How much do you think you would need to tax them to provide luxuries for the 85% of slugs with no visible means of support? That's just something you need to figure out. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I completely understand what you're doing pal. I'm just tossing some shit back. Materialism or not traveling the world is something of a luxury that a lot of people would like to indulge in. For instance, we were just looking at a Viking River cruise. Didn't get too deeply into it but close to 4000 bucks and I'm not sure if that's each. I also just got an estimate for swimming pool which comes in around 30 K and doesn't include concrete electric or gas lines. But if 10 or 15 percent of the people are working to provide all the free shit I'd imagine they are being paid pretty well. How much do you think you would need to tax them to provide luxuries for the 85% of slugs with no visible means of support? That's just something you need to figure out. WSS At that point, the value of money is meaningless. Pay them more, tax them more, you basically just keep the money you need and give them a little of the remainder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 At that point, the value of money is meaningless. Pay them more, tax them more, you basically just keep the money you need and give them a little of the remainder. sure but I need a number. If you plan to provide luxury for 85% of non working Americans then the percent of tax taken from the 15 that are going to be really really vital to society will have to be huge. And if 15 percent of society provides everything do you think they will be happy making a similar amount to the deadbeats? I sincerely doubt it. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Then we need to make sure that everybody contributes at some level, I'm sure plenty of people can be trained to be mechanics fixing the future robot cars. Then they work 5 hours a week for $10k, for example, plus food/travel/health/whatever benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Then we need to make sure that everybody contributes at some level, I'm sure plenty of people can be trained to be mechanics fixing the future robot cars. Then they work 5 hours a week for $10k, for example, plus food/travel/health/whatever benefits. Oh I guess you could actually force people to work. I suppose one job that would be pretty universal would be [insert euphemism for Gestapo here] to enforce that. Oh and to force them to go to school to learn to service the robots. This is looking better and better as the discussion goes on... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 So people, what does your utopia look like? How do you envisage a perfect world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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