What's your first two days draft board look like? Round and position.

[calfoxwc]

All 6 would be better than Bosa.

OMG, my coffee would have been all over my screen ... lol

[tiamat63]

Peppers can play! He is a heck of an athlete that could play DB or Saftey.

NOPE.

 

 

For future reference - every time I see a post advocating Peppers you'll get that response plus me telling you to go back and watch film.

[The Gipper]

NOPE.

 

 

For future reference - every time I see a post advocating Peppers you'll get that response plus me telling you to go back and watch film.

Who are the Top DBs to look for then?

[MLD Woody]

NOPE.

 

 

For future reference - every time I see a post advocating Peppers you'll get that response plus me telling you to go back and watch film.

 

 

Please explain to me your great wisdom

[MLD Woody]

Clearly have to get a rush on the qb. Have to go with best rated pass rusher. I would like to see Garrett as well. I know most hate the team up north, but Peppers can play! He is a heck of an athlete that could play DB or Saftey.

 

Safety is DB.

[cambridgeho]

 

Safety is DB.

My bad. CB then

[MLD Woody]

My bad. CB then

 

 

He'd be raw as hell at CB considering he has barely played in it college.

[tiamat63]

 

 

Please explain to me your great wisdom

2 Pages before you and the Gip had your discord in the Heisman Thread. I felt I summed it up nicely.

[MLD Woody]

Humor me here as I try to remember where we left off. I'm done with Gipper and that back and forth. It's getting ridiculous.

 

 

Your concerns are his deep coverage ability and that because we ask him to do so many things, you don't really think he's elite at any of them. Correct?

 

You also seem to disagree with a lot of NFL analysts on where he'll be drafted. Whether you think you're better than them at this is another conversation though.

[The Gipper]

Humor me here as I try to remember where we left off. I'm done with Gipper and that back and forth. It's getting ridiculous.

 

You are the one that caused any confusion. So I will try to clarify things with a question: Do you, Mr. Mishegoss (look it up) advocate that the Browns select Jabrill Peppers in the first round of the draft next year? To quote Meatloaf: What's it gonna be boy, yes, or no?

 

[tiamat63]

Humor me here as I try to remember where we left off. I'm done with Gipper and that back and forth. It's getting ridiculous.

 

 

Your concerns are his deep coverage ability and that because we ask him to do so many things, you don't really think he's elite at any of them. Correct?

 

You also seem to disagree with a lot of NFL analysts on where he'll be drafted. Whether you think you're better than them at this is another conversation though.

 

It was a bit out of hand in that thread.

 

My concern isn't so much his lack of playing time at the position but his (in)ability to play it at a high level. I counted one time Jabrill was playing back on a hash against Wisky. Other than that he was

WLB and on passing downs SLB with underneath/secondary responsibilities.

 

I disagree with many analysts about many players. Peppers is no exception.

[MLD Woody]

So you're saying because we aren't actually using him at safety he has an "inability" to play it at a high level? I disagree with that logic. You said your concern isn't lack of playing time then described his lack of playing time at safety...

[The Gipper]

So you're saying because we aren't actually using him at safety he has an "inability" to play it at a high level? I disagree with that logic. You said your concern isn't lack of playing time then described his lack of playing time at safety...

The Browns need a top quality safety in the worst way.

 

Would you take him with a very, very high draft pick to play safety for the Cleveland Browns?

[tiamat63]

So you're saying because we aren't actually using him at safety he has an "inability" to play it at a high level? I disagree with that logic. You said your concern isn't lack of playing time then described his lack of playing time at safety...

 

My primary concern is his inability. IF he was as effective at the position, a center fielder or a rover spot (often given no coverage assignment) then he would be manning it every down.

You can come up to support the run and take away vertical threats, next to pass rusher and having a rare lockdown CB, you'll often see those boys get paid top dollar - ala Earl. They're game changers.

 

He's asked however to play secondary coverage - being underneath and then bringing athletic ability to a linebacking corps that isn't known for theirs. He's still solid sideline to sideline pursuit. As it stands he's been a classic box safety in coverage looking at a league that doesn't really utilize that position outside of a few notable exceptions. And when they do you have to scheme around them because of their vunerabilities in certain situations, I.E. - early down run game and constraint plays/formations. When he isn't he'll be a 3rd safety in a big nickel and that isn't easy either. Conflicts in assignment, asked to play over bigger TE's and fast as shit slot receivers.

 

Let's pretend Peppers will take to playing deep responsibility, how long do you suppose before he begins making those keys second nature, while on a huge learning curve and making the jump to the NFL?

Maybe a team without a lack of depth like we have can afford to take that risk - but for reasons I mention I don't think he's going to be what people prop him up as. Combined with the needed immediate impact the Browns require, I disagree with what several analysts have mentioned.

 

 

Last year tOSU ran and threw right at him IIRC. His man coverage is questionable in my eye. I have some free time this weekend, I'll go back and watch that game and take notes. It's hard to absorb things when you're drinking and in the heat of the game.

 

In the Heisman thread I mentioned I felt Jabrill is really best at non defensive things, sure enough a week later he blows up on offense and special teams with not a single highlight, gamechanging play and last I looked, only 3 tackles on defense....?

 

I'm sure he's a fine athlete. Would I call him an elite athlete? Probably not. There are a ton of 6'1, 200lb 4.4-4.5 bodies in the NFL. The combine will determine that though.

[MLD Woody]

The Browns need a top quality safety in the worst way.

 

Would you take him with a very, very high draft pick to play safety for the Cleveland Browns?

 

 

The Michigan fan side of me would love if we took Peppers. I'd have that jersey day one.

 

The Browns fan side of me thinks we'd be better off taking a different elite player at that high of a pick. I think I would rather have an elite player at a position of more need, like Garrett. If these initial mocks are right, we'd need to take Peppers top 5. I think over positions are a bigger need, plus I like Kindred going forward. I'm also not sure we could utilize Peppers effectively enough. But if we did at, from my Browns fan perspective, I would no be disappointed.

 

 

 

 

... though the possibility of a Lewis/Peppers duo like Peterson/Honey Badger would cause me to go insane...

[MLD Woody]

 

My primary concern is his inability. IF he was as effective at the position, a center fielder or a rover spot (often given no coverage assignment) then he would be manning it every down.

You can come up to support the run and take away vertical threats, next to pass rusher and having a rare lockdown CB, you'll often see those boys get paid top dollar - ala Earl. They're game changers.

 

He's asked however to play secondary coverage - being underneath and then bringing athletic ability to a linebacking corps that isn't known for theirs. He's still solid sideline to sideline pursuit. As it stands he's been a classic box safety in coverage looking at a league that doesn't really utilize that position outside of a few notable exceptions. And when they do you have to scheme around them because of their vunerabilities in certain situations, I.E. - early down run game and constraint plays/formations. When he isn't he'll be a 3rd safety in a big nickel and that isn't easy either. Conflicts in assignment, asked to play over bigger TE's and fast as shit slot receivers.

 

Let's pretend Peppers will take to playing deep responsibility, how long do you suppose before he begins making those keys second nature, while on a huge learning curve and making the jump to the NFL?

Maybe a team without a lack of depth like we have can afford to take that risk - but for reasons I mention I don't think he's going to be what people prop him up as. Combined with the needed immediate impact the Browns require, I disagree with what several analysts have mentioned.

 

 

Last year tOSU ran and threw right at him IIRC. His man coverage is questionable in my eye. I have some free time this weekend, I'll go back and watch that game and take notes. It's hard to absorb things when you're drinking and in the heat of the game.

 

In the Heisman thread I mentioned I felt Jabrill is really best at non defensive things, sure enough a week later he blows up on offense and special teams with not a single highlight, gamechanging play and last I looked, only 3 tackles on defense....?

 

I'm sure he's a fine athlete. Would I call him an elite athlete? Probably not. There are a ton of 6'1, 200lb 4.4-4.5 bodies in the NFL. The combine will determine that though.

 

 

Again, you're basing his ability to ever play the position on the fact it isn't his main position now. You say if he could play it, he'd be there, why? Why would we put him there? We're happy with our safeties and he can do more damage at his hybrid LB position now.

 

That's like going back some years, and saying the if Braxton could play WR/H Back, he'd be there, and not QB.

 

Not to mention we do rotate our defense. Peppers does play safety outright sometimes, and sometimes after a shift. Ex:

 

 

 

The LB group wasn't known for their athleticism because they weren't known for anything. Our LB group is the most inexperienced on our team. But they have played better than anyone could have hoped. Not OSU level of athleticism, but much better than last year.

 

Looking at lasts years OSU game and using it to analyze his draft prospects this year would be foolish. Different position, different DC, first full season of playing time as a redshirt freshman, etc.

 

Are you looking at only the stats to determine Pepper's performance against Rutgers? That doesn't sound like a good analyst... Peppers hardly "blew up" on Offense/Special Teams. He did what he could do at any point to many teams, especially a shit Rutgers team. We just happen to be giving him touches now. On defense we pulled all of our starters very early. There really wasn't a ton he could do.

 

I disagree with you that he is a "fine athlete". I'd consider him an elite athlete, as would many analysts. He was compared to Patrick Peterson and Adrian Peterson as an athlete in high school by a college assistant. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. If the film doesn't convince you, I guess only the combine will.

[tiamat63]

 

 

Again, you're basing his ability to ever play the position on the fact it isn't his main position now. You say if he could play it, he'd be there, why? Why would we put him there? We're happy with our safeties and he can do more damage at his hybrid LB position now.

 

That's like going back some years, and saying the if Braxton could play WR/H Back, he'd be there, and not QB.

 

Not to mention we do rotate our defense. Peppers does play safety outright sometimes, and sometimes after a shift. Ex:

 

 

The LB group wasn't known for their athleticism because they weren't known for anything. Our LB group is the most inexperienced on our team. But they have played better than anyone could have hoped. Not OSU level of athleticism, but much better than last year.

 

Looking at lasts years OSU game and using it to analyze his draft prospects this year would be foolish. Different position, different DC, first full season of playing time as a redshirt freshman, etc.

 

Are you looking at only the stats to determine Pepper's performance against Rutgers? That doesn't sound like a good analyst... Peppers hardly "blew up" on Offense/Special Teams. He did what he could do at any point to many teams, especially a shit Rutgers team. We just happen to be giving him touches now. On defense we pulled all of our starters very early. There really wasn't a ton he could do.

 

I disagree with you that he is a "fine athlete". I'd consider him an elite athlete, as would many analysts. He was compared to Patrick Peterson and Adrian Peterson as an athlete in high school by a college assistant. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. If the film doesn't convince you, I guess only the combine will.

 

Your comparison to Braxton is a bit of a false equivalence. Miller was the best athlete on the team and on an offense starving for playmakers in the early going. He was recruited to play QB. Generally speaking your best athlete in high school and college plays QB. His move to H-back was a combination of injury, having JT play so well in his absence (save for the running part) then looking to future monies with a move to receiver. Thus putting our best weapons on the field at the same time. Peppers was recruited to play DB, not WLB. Not to say that a lot of 3rd safeties don't play the same spot, they do. But they aren't top 5 selected players.

 

He plays on a hash RARELY unless its called for and as I've highlighted his man coverage is another concern of mine. If Peppers was such a great DB, he'd be playing DB more. It's a money making, game changing spot. I'm not basing my entire opinion on last years game alone, but trends that have held since that point. I'm also not enough of a purist of either side to say that its stats or film alone that lead me to my conclusion. It's both. I posted his missed tackle percentage and it was well above national average in his first full season. To me, that means quite a bit.

 

The 'elite' athlete will depend on his spot in the combine and his performance. Do you think he'll put up numbers that Shazier did? Class best in 3 categories and a 4.38...? Because I don't. I'm also comparing him to a LB that's nearly 2 inches taller with another 25lbs on him. Since we like going with the 'analysts' route, some questioned if Ryan might end up at safety as well.

 

At the end of the day we'll agree to disagree. I maintain my right to change my assessment with future film and combine (though I don't put too much stock in the latter). Feel free to bookmark my final thoughts and revisit them in a year or two's time. As it stands, I don't see a complete defender I'd be willing to invest a top pick in.

[MLD Woody]

 

Your comparison to Braxton is a bit of a false equivalence. Miller was the best athlete on the team and on an offense starving for playmakers in the early going. He was recruited to play QB. Generally speaking your best athlete in high school and college plays QB. His move to H-back was a combination of injury, having JT play so well in his absence (save for the running part) then looking to future monies with a move to receiver. Thus putting our best weapons on the field at the same time. Peppers was recruited to play DB, not WLB. Not to say that a lot of 3rd safeties don't play the same spot, they do. But they aren't top 5 selected players.

 

He plays on a hash RARELY unless its called for and as I've highlighted his man coverage is another concern of mine. If Peppers was such a great DB, he'd be playing DB more. It's a money making, game changing spot. I'm not basing my entire opinion on last years game alone, but trends that have held since that point. I'm also not enough of a purist of either side to say that its stats or film alone that lead me to my conclusion. It's both. I posted his missed tackle percentage and it was well above national average in his first full season. To me, that means quite a bit.

 

The 'elite' athlete will depend on his spot in the combine and his performance. Do you think he'll put up numbers that Shazier did? Class best in 3 categories and a 4.38...? Because I don't. I'm also comparing him to a LB that's nearly 2 inches taller with another 25lbs on him. Since we like going with the 'analysts' route, some questioned if Ryan might end up at safety as well.

 

At the end of the day we'll agree to disagree. I maintain my right to change my assessment with future film and combine (though I don't put too much stock in the latter). Feel free to bookmark my final thoughts and revisit them in a year or two's time. As it stands, I don't see a complete defender I'd be willing to invest a top pick in.

 

 

The point being, you're saying Peppers isn't playing safety, therefore he can't. My example would work a few years ago. Braxton isn't playing H Back, therefore he can't. That obviously wasn't true. He did more good for the team as a QB. THAT'S THE POINT.

 

Peppers was recruited as an ATH, and we decided CB was the best spot for him to start out at. Our new DC is now using him in a hybrid LB role for the most impact. He also isn't playing WLB, if anything he's playing the Sam spot. Another thing that makes me question your "authority" on this subject.

 

Again, with the "If he was any good at X, he'd be playing X!" faulty logic. He does the most good for us in the role he's in now. That doesn't mean he can't be a CB or a S. I'm not sure where you're not getting that.

 

How are you going to tell me what "trends" he's had when you thought he was a WLB? Or that you've gone from saving he never plays back to "Ok, well, sometimes he plays back."

 

And again, on the missed tackle percentage, I'll tell you he gets into a position to even attempt a tackle that most defenders could not. If you can't even make the tackle, you won't miss it. If you get into a position to disrupt the play where most players couldn't, even if you miss the tackle, that's a plus play.

[The Gipper]

 

 

The Michigan fan side of me would love if we took Peppers. I'd have that jersey day one.

 

The Browns fan side of me thinks we'd be better off taking a different elite player at that high of a pick. I think I would rather have an elite player at a position of more need, like Garrett. If these initial mocks are right, we'd need to take Peppers top 5. I think over positions are a bigger need, plus I like Kindred going forward. I'm also not sure we could utilize Peppers effectively enough. But if we did at, from my Browns fan perspective, I would no be disappointed.

 

 

 

 

... though the possibility of a Lewis/Peppers duo like Peterson/Honey Badger would cause me to go insane...

After seeing the last couple of games, I don't know that we have a more critical need on this team than the defensive backfield.

[gftChris]

After seeing the last couple of games, I don't know that we have a more critical need on this team than the defensive backfield.

DB, Edge rusher and OL, probably in that order.

[Unsympathetic]

Would it kill you people to spend 30 seconds googling for an analysis of Peppers as a DB?

 

All the NFL comparisons listed are to people who play the rover/OLB/nickel spot. Sure, it's important because it's the spot where a guy who's not fluid enough as a DB and not big enough for ILB plays. Note that speed is not mentioned.. that's a given for the NFL athlete. He is NOT "an elite athlete" as a DB, even if he is elite as a OLB/slot guy.

 

 

In summary, just stop it with the Peppers talk.

 

I've seen Deone Buccannon play, and he's no Deone Buccannon. With that second first-round pick, take either Malik Hooker or Raekwon McMillan.

[gftChris]

The michigan guy sucks balls, we should take one of the OSU guys? Say, are you an OSU fan?

 

The report you even linked to says "He is fluid in his turn" and you say he's not. He's 6'1" and runs a 4.3 40. How much more athletic do you want a DB to be? So have some more scouting reports:

 

Peppers has the athleticism to match up in man coverage against slot receivers in spread schemes. He also has the range and speed to play high safety and help out over the top

 

He is a superb athlete

 

Peppers fits at cornerback thanks to his combination of quickness, balance and awareness. He features quick-twitch ability which allows him to click and close on the football. His speed allows him to turn and run with receivers as well as recover after a misread.

 

Arguably the best all-around athlete in college football

 

He's the athletic hybrid player for which the NFL is looking

 

 

I'm not here to say he's all that or he's not, but if you're going to tell other people to read a scouting report, then contradict the one you post I'm going to call you out.

[The Gipper]

Browns likely have the #1 overall pick....or #2. Though it may be the greatest area of need on the team.....usually you don't see DBs going all that high in the draft.

 

Since 1970, only 18 defensive backs have been drafted in the Top 5 of a draft. Some very good ones: Deion Sanders, Charles Woodson, Mike Haynes, Patrick Peterson.

 

A few busts: Bruce Pickens, Randy Dixon.

 

The only Browns draftee was Eric Turner. A #2 overall. Is there an Eric Turner in this draft to go after?

[tiamat63]

In today's NFL I build from the line up. Pass rush is my greatest concern.

[Tour2ma]

In today's NFL I build from the line up. Pass rush is my greatest concern.

 

AKA... front to back. I agree with the philosophy, but I'm sure neither of us would pass over DB talent is passed when it rises to the top of our boards.

[tiamat63]

 

AKA... front to back. I agree with the philosophy, but I'm sure neither of us would pass over DB talent is passed when it rises to the top of our boards.

Front to back, yes.

 

No, I wouldn't pass on DB talent but it depends on who and where that talent plays.

[gftChris]

If the question is Myles Garrett or Jabrill Peppers, and we have both equally rated, I go with the edge rusher in general. That of course depends on a whole bucket load of other factors, like how highly the team rates Nate Orchard and Emanuel Ogbah, who we sign in the offseason, which position has greater depth (edge, I think this year but obviously that's subjective and very early) for example.

[jiggins7919]

It's Myles Garrett, and I'm not so sure it's even close. 6'5, 262 pounds, and runs something like a 4.5? Oh, AND he stops the run?

 

Yes please.

 

My biggest fear is that we'll "screw up" and win some games at the end of the season. The good news (regarding draft placement), is we mainly play teams that will be in the playoff hunt. They can't lie down, so maybe we'll keep our "top spot".

[Tour2ma]

If the question is Myles Garrett or Jabrill Peppers, and we have both equally rated, I go with the edge rusher in general. That of course depends on a whole bucket load of other factors, like how highly the team rates Nate Orchard and Emanuel Ogbah, who we sign in the offseason, which position has greater depth (edge, I think this year but obviously that's subjective and very early) for example.

 

Completely agree... and not due to being lovestruck. Philosophy is a perfectly valid basis for breaking such a tie.

 

But where you think "vs. Orchard or Ogbah", I think opposite Nassib or Ogbah. Which raises the issue of scheme. I'd want my Myles with his hand in the dirt on early downs and roaming on 3rd... up, down, whatever.

 

I think great pass-rushers make their opposite better just by the pressure they bring.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

This FO will go with the greatest ROI and nothing else.

 

If a trade back enables us to gather two more exceptionally valuable draft picks (first two rounds), this FO will no doubt take it. We stand to benefit from taking any of the top 15 prospects at the current moment.

 

I still firmly believe we lack starter level talent at edge rusher, cornerback, both safety positions, right tackle, and center.

 

While elite level talent is great, it does not turn a bottom feeding team into a contender. I believe we are one year removed from adding elite level cogs to our machine.

 

 

Teams like SF, Chicago, NYJ, even possibly Miami will finish in the top ten and will likely be chasing a top quarterback. A slight shift back from 1 to, say 6, would enable us to acquire (at the very least) a 2018 first round pick and a 2017 second round pick.

 

We'd then possess two first rounders and three second rounders. Assuming a whiff% of 50 still leaves us with 2.5 high-level starting players from the first two rounds of one draft - which is better we'd get with a 0 whiff% in a routine 7 pick draft.

 

All this plus we still have 7 picks in rounds 3-7. Assuming even a whiff% of 75 still nets us about 2 starters from that group.

 

Worst case - we end up with 12 backups and go into 2018 with another 2 first round picks.

 

That is how this FO is looking at this. It's simple return on investment.

 

We could net Adams, Hooker, Davis and Elflein with our first four picks and have four legitimate starters over our current players.

 

I find that a little more enticing than taking a QB at #1....and that's maybe the first time I've said that.